Even things like blind fire locked hydra shots?
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Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?
- Thread starter sir_dany12
- Start date
Even things like blind fire locked hydra shots?
They're no where near as bad as grenade hitmarkers. With blindfire shots you're not really getting any more info about enemy positioning than you would without hitmarkers. Locked shots are still going to track the enemy so you're going to know roughly where they are regardless of if you hit them or not.
That said, I was referring to hitscan weapons like the pistol etc. I feel like hitmarkers make long distance shooting less frustrating and they have basically no negative effects.
Samurai G0SU
Member
If they incorporate more subtle highlights, like the lights on pink and purple tower within Truth, then they could remove the grenade hitmarkers since players will know someone is in that area.
I dont know any other map that has these type of triggers.
It's not just the knowledge of someone in there though. There's two factors:
1. The camper knows that someone else is aware they are in that position because they've been damaged by a grenade. This encourages them to move to a different position.
2. The player who threw the grenade knows that the camper is now weak and so has more encouragement to push.
My biggest problem with grenade hitmarkers is that if you're playing against a team and you get hit by a grenade you can basically guarantee there will be a fucking hailstorm of grenades coming your way within seconds.
You are right about grenade hitmarkers giving free info on enemy locations, but they also tell you that you damaged that player. Tracking hydra shots don't give you free info on where a player is, but they do give you free info on whether or not a blind shot damaged someone. Info that drastically changes how that kill is cleaned up or the engagement is reset. It's not as problematic as using grenades to look for players but it still seems silly and unnecessary.
E3 is coming.
Fata1moose
Banned
Yes!!!
Sure they discourage camping.
But the encourage grenade spam. And often punish players for being unlucky enough to get hit by random nades- even if they aren't camping.
The question is do the pros outweigh the cons? I think it's a resounding no. There are other, more effective, less damaging ways to discourage camping (like the new radar, and tweaking/removing autos).
Even though both players gain information, the one who is damaged is severely disadvantaged because his exact location is known and he weakened- mind you the damaged player wasn't neccisarily camping in the first place.
Edit:That said, I do actually enjoy the weapons hit markers. And the kill marker. I have no idea why, but I find it satisfying, especially when accompanied by the sound of a head shot.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
The weapon hitmarkers are obnoxiously huge and do we really need the red x popping out from the center of our cross hair when we get a kill? It's worthless visual noise.
Let us disable weapon hitmarkers if we want... There should be shield flare and blood to give us feedback... It was something actually unique and recognizable about Halo, but we had to regress to COD style for no reason.
BizzyBum
Member
It could be worse, we could also have the grenade marker indicators like H2A.
This is me to a T. After swearing up and down that I wouldn't buy 5 due to 343's treatment of the MCC, I caved to the hype a few weeks after launch. At first I liked it, then lost interest, then tried it again, and continued this loop until last summer, when I got a few buddies to join me and we ran team stuff often. I managed to get good enough to hit Onyx a few times in rumble and I think once in TS, and then suddenly just didn't want to play anymore. Outside of H4, that's never happened to me with any Halo, not even Reach. I'll watch it now and again on Twitch, just because I like a few of the streamers- but I have no desire to play it again, at all.
Meanwhile, I'm still chugging away at the MCC, almost nightly.
Samurai G0SU
Member
But let us gather to appreciate the positive things they have brought to HALO.
The ultimate FORGE and Custom Browser. OF course, each of these still need evolving and updates, but at least there is a good progressive vision ahead.
What i really love most about MP is the fact that you can outplay the opponent, and maybe their comrades with your skill(double,triple,overkills). Oh really, i did a 180 jump clamber then back thrust with another 180 to clamber on a different ledge only to hover for 2 seconds and ground pound the guy looking around clueless up in the air? yep.
Oh, you see they are chasing you as they got the first shot? Say hello to my bank nade where you're about to clamber up to. Yes, thank you for going into my TRAP.
Halo 5 MP provides me with satisfying play sessions
that remind me of my halo 2 days. Oh, and i only play slayer because im a solo queue type of player and arena gets me more frustrated than reward as it depends more on your team than individual strengths.
The ultimate FORGE and Custom Browser. OF course, each of these still need evolving and updates, but at least there is a good progressive vision ahead.
(unless they fuck it up like MM and everyone not in the USA quit the game)
What i really love most about MP is the fact that you can outplay the opponent, and maybe their comrades with your skill(double,triple,overkills). Oh really, i did a 180 jump clamber then back thrust with another 180 to clamber on a different ledge only to hover for 2 seconds and ground pound the guy looking around clueless up in the air? yep.
Oh, you see they are chasing you as they got the first shot? Say hello to my bank nade where you're about to clamber up to. Yes, thank you for going into my TRAP.
Halo 5 MP provides me with satisfying play sessions
(when connection is optimal and mm isn't setting me against teams of 4 or people ranked way higher than me)
I completely agree that the pros do not outweigh the cons though. I don't like them. Just saying they're not necessarily entirely a bad thing.
I'd say overall they encourage more aggressive play which I'm not against.
The red X for a headshot is very satisfying. I find weapon hitmarkers also make long distance shooting less frustrating.
Sure add the option to remove them, I've got nothing against that.
However I disagree that they're a regression. The lack of hitmarkers one of the more dated aspects of older Halos imo. It's also certainly not just visual noise. It makes hitting shots distinctly more satisfying.
Forge and custom browser ARE the legacy of H5. Great stuff.
The return of the outplay is why h5 has become my second favorite halo mp behind H2. Not since then have i felt like pure raw skill determined the outcome of a fight. (H3 had random br spread and equipment, reach had AAs and loadouts, and they never released an H4 for some reason).
Outplaying people feels less badass to me in H5 compared to H2 though. Radar+thrust Ninjas arent as baddass as pure awareness Ninjas. And double 180 clamber fakeouts arent as badass as expertly crouch jumping, ledge to ledge, all while keeping your crosshairs trained on the target (instead of having to turn and face the wall you want to scale)
Encouraging aggressive play is cool.
Encouraging aggressive play by handing out free information in exchange for shallow behavior- not so much.
I think the concept could be useful with more appropriate thought given to the sandbox.
Frag grenades and plasmas don't need hitmarkers to encourage aggressiveness. They are offensive in nature, and the plasmas even let off a flash bang effect. They are already suitable for softening areas prior to making an aggressive push
Splinter grenades aren't intended to be offensive weapons, they are for area denial. When used in this manner, the hit markets end up servings as a notice that something's been caught in your trap- which makes sense given the weapons purpose.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I feel the exact opposite. I like the game's world and environment reacting to my actions, not a superficial layer of UI giving me a thumbs up. It makes shots less satisfying to me.
It's one if the reasons I like removing crosshairs from single player games (some MP like Siege) if I can. It's more satisfying and the visual clarity is wonderful.
I would also like the kill notification sound to go away.. Replace it with various classic death screams, nothing, or w/e.
I feel like you and I enjoy games for very different reasons. Lol
Prinz Eugn
Member
Yeah, hit markers don't bother me that much, but it would generally be better to integrate that information into the world rather than the UI overlay, for example by having shields flare like crazy like they did in H2 or Reach. Hit markers are just easy cludges to get that information to the player.
They do actually change the game when it comes to feedback on damage to players you can't see (e.g., bounce nades), though, and that's the real issue with them.
Death sounds are a little different because that's information that would already be accessible to the player via the kill-feed, it's just going through another perceptual channel. If it could be diagetic, that would be sweet too.
Once again, I really prefer when the environment is reacting and showing me something is happening. When I hit someone, the shield appearing on the Spartan is actually the best hit marker I could ever wish for.
Plus, I don't like that with hitmarker, it informs you if you should spam grenade or not. When I'm playing the MCC, I usually know where a player is. I throw a grenade, even all my 'nades to kill him, but I'm not sure he was still here and that I hit him with my first 'nade. But that is up to me to use my 'nades now and having none aftre this, or just go away.
With the hitmaker on the grenade, it only indicates me if it's time to spam nade or not. Before, it was a bit more strategic and encouraging player to know more about the map, the position of the other players, etc...
Of course, hitmaker has been added to appeal new players, I'm not sure someone playing Halo CE/2/3 ever said "oh I wish I add a UI stuff to tell me if I hit the opponent or not".
I don't think we enjoy games for different reasons at all. I think we just have different perspectives.
I don't see how a UI element is any more superficial than shield flare. They achieve the exact same result through the exact same means: a visual indication of damage.
Why is attaching the visual indication to your hud worse than attaching it to the in-game world?
I like shield flare, in no way am i suggesting they should change it. However, in some ways i think hitmarkers work far better. There's more clarity with hitmarkers, they're unaffected by distance or changing lighting and so are visible at all times. They're also unique to you: if you're engaging a player with a teammate shield flare won't indicate whether it's you or your teammate hitting the shots.
VincentMatts
Member
Ultimately, i think most of you are arguing about "details" that in the end will change very little in the grand scheme of things. Sprint or no sprint wont put halo back on top again. Those are details.
Games that are popular today all have one thing in common, they have a progression system or loot system that keep people coming back. They all have something like that. Think of any really popular game.
If halo does not incorporate something that makes people want to come back daily (and spend money), then the same thing will happen next time around. And NO, i dont mean changing Arena into that. Arena is fine how it is. But warzone can definitely benefit from some creative liberties.
They definitely need to make Warzone into something that has a good deep progression system and hell, maybe have different types of armors that give you different abilities, shit like that. This is what people expect now. If 343 dont bring that aspect into their game in some way, it will continue to struggle long term and you will see the population drop fairly quickly.
Destiny2 and all those loot games are out there. People wont stop playing them unless they have a good reason too. And fun isnt enough anymore.
Games that are popular today all have one thing in common, they have a progression system or loot system that keep people coming back. They all have something like that. Think of any really popular game.
If halo does not incorporate something that makes people want to come back daily (and spend money), then the same thing will happen next time around. And NO, i dont mean changing Arena into that. Arena is fine how it is. But warzone can definitely benefit from some creative liberties.
They definitely need to make Warzone into something that has a good deep progression system and hell, maybe have different types of armors that give you different abilities, shit like that. This is what people expect now. If 343 dont bring that aspect into their game in some way, it will continue to struggle long term and you will see the population drop fairly quickly.
Destiny2 and all those loot games are out there. People wont stop playing them unless they have a good reason too. And fun isnt enough anymore.
I'll write up something later (who am I kidding, I don't write shit anymore), but change theater up a bit so it can also act as a player operated debugging mode. Throw hit markers in there so players can verify after the fact if it was a spotty networking situation or if they were just plain missing.
That, of course, would require 343i actually putting work into theater, which is a tall order considering Halo Reach's theater is better than Halo 4's, MCC's, and Halo 5's.
That, of course, would require 343i actually putting work into theater, which is a tall order considering Halo Reach's theater is better than Halo 4's, MCC's, and Halo 5's.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
This is a logical point that I didn't think of. I do however hope they would allow people to disable them, or at the very least, set their transparency levels/color like BF1. And you are correct, we do just have different perspectives...but that leads to how we might enjoy something. I kid you not, seeing hitmarkers takes me out of my connection with the simulated world. There is a psychological difference in the simulated world appearing like it's reacting to me (shield flare/blood) and the game telling me that something is happening (hitmarkers).
is better than:
and
is better than:
I don't think a lot of us talking about the "details" (which we consider really important) are merely trying to propose ways to make "Halo great again" in the public eye. They may or may not accomplish that. We are just talking about it from a passionate fan perspective that wants the best game possible. We are talking about fundamental design philosophies and their impact on the gameplay, which is why people play games anyways. They frankly go hand in hand and can't be separated.
I don't usually like to try to talk about what might make sense from a business perspective (unless the idea is counter productive) because it seems most big-wigs making those kind of decisions are out of touch and presumptuous anyways.
I know what you mean.
It's actually exactly the same reason people like sprint. Games are an audiovisual medium, a simple visual indicator like swinging arms has a surprising impact on a players experience.
It doesn't matter how deep and rewarding your progression system is if people don't enjoy playing the game.
Destiny has a rewarding progression scheme that accompanied a massively appealing gameplay loop. The loop was so good, that people didn't mind doing the same handful of missions over and over again.
The main reason people come back is because they enjoy playing. Loot is an additional motivator, not the main course.
While I enjoy H5s loop, I can understand why it didn't resonate with many. On top of gameplay issues the pve is lack luster, so is the matchmaking, the aiming,the ui and the networking- all of which are barriers to enjoyment.
How many times does it take getting Farmed on stormbreak before someone decides Getting a norfang isn't worth it?
Destiny has a rewarding progression scheme that accompanied a massively appealing gameplay loop. The loop was so good, that people didn't mind doing the same handful of missions over and over again.
The main reason people come back is because they enjoy playing. Loot is an additional motivator, not the main course.
While I enjoy H5s loop, I can understand why it didn't resonate with many. On top of gameplay issues the pve is lack luster, so is the matchmaking, the aiming,the ui and the networking- all of which are barriers to enjoyment.
How many times does it take getting Farmed on stormbreak before someone decides Getting a norfang isn't worth it?
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Yeah, the main difference is that hitmarkers (aside from splash damage weapons and grenades) don't have a noticeable impact on gameplay, but sprint does. lol
But yeah I get it, cuz sprinting does "feel" good (although in Halo 5 it feels a bit pedestrian).
Fata1moose
Banned
I don't use sprint much in Halo 5. Even less with the new radar. The maps aren't overtly large, only time I sprint is to help a teammate or pull a counter flag.
Yeah, the main difference is that hitmarkers (aside from splash damage weapons and grenades) don't have a noticeable impact on gameplay, but sprint does. lol
But yeah I get it, cuz sprinting does "feel" good (although in Halo 5 it feels a bit pedestrian).
I know, just pointing it out
I actually do think the lore argument has some merit, however not in the way people usually argue it. You shouldn't add stuff like sprint because a spartan should be able to sprint. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to add sprint to make the game feel more like you're playing as a spartan.
I don't want to continue the whole sprint argument by the way, just thought this was worth mentioning
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I know, just pointing it out
I actually do think the lore argument has some merit, however not in the way people usually argue it. You shouldn't add stuff like sprint because a spartan should be able to sprint. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to add sprint to make the game feel more like you're playing as a spartan.
I don't want to continue the whole sprint argument by the way, just thought this was worth mentioning
I get you.
But couldn't the same could be argued for sprinting while shooting? Lol
Fahzgoolin
Banned
If you're shooting you're not really sprinting though are you?
supersoldier science fiction beh-bay!
I think we should all spawn with the camo armour ability. If the UNSC has the tech for portable self camo then why don't they equip all their spartans with it?
It's just more realistic.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
This makes me so happy lol
This guy's videos are freaking hilarious. I can't stop.
YourExWife
Member
Can't forget the Armor Lock GOAT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_bUbklKMAc
As for hitmarkers, I'm fine with them in MP (except grenades, which is just stupid), but I think campaign immersion is lost a bit with hitmarkers. The purpose for them is just not there in that situation.
FATstronaut
Member
lol nice!
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Do we know who is writing Halo 6 this time around? Is Brian Reed still part of the team?
Oh god the armor lock on the roof
Masterz1337
Neo Member
Oh man. I haven't seen that in years. I remember buying that off iTunes at one point for some reason. It really does show how ridiculous that ability was. It be nice if whoever came up with it shared their thoughts on it now. I would love to hear why they thought it was a good idea.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I remember a commentary from Bungie on some new maps released post launch and someone was making fun of it. lol gonna see if I can find it.
Edit:
Found it!
https://youtu.be/xYUgGAUHl8Y
At 5:50 and beyond lol (this is after multiple people avoided damage with armor lock).
Fata1moose
Banned
I think regen fields and bubble shields were almost as bad as armor lock. Slowed gameplay to a crawl.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
I think regen pissed me off more tbh
Man that vid I posted of Tempest makes me miss Bungie's artistic touch and BTB maps...
Destiny's maps were pretty gorgeous.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
It was quite the experience facing off against Bubble Shields, Regens, Power Drains, etc. with the Halo 3 BR on 2007 netcode lol. People think the sprint debate is tiresome? Imagine reading swaths of people calling for a BR nerf because the other weapons were butt.
Truly dark times for the community. I like to think we're in a better place now as far as offerings for all types of play. Still lots of improvements to be made going forward, but at least the console space has changed to allow for less troublesome updates (certification process, policies, online infrastructure, etc.).
I legit feel like the engagements in vanilla H5 more than vanilla H3.
While I hate the effect that sprint has had on the dynamics of a battle (though thankfully they are pickups), I think the randomness of equipment just as bad. Couple that with the fact every weapon except the BR was ass, and netcode+ random spread made the BR ass... I just couldn't do it
Remember when Bungie was trying to build hype before the reveal of equipment? It was supposed to "revolutionize the x button"
While I hate the effect that sprint has had on the dynamics of a battle (though thankfully they are pickups), I think the randomness of equipment just as bad. Couple that with the fact every weapon except the BR was ass, and netcode+ random spread made the BR ass... I just couldn't do it
Remember when Bungie was trying to build hype before the reveal of equipment? It was supposed to "revolutionize the x button"
Masterz1337
Neo Member
Actually the equipment dates way way way back before that. In Halo 1 they internally label the melee button as equipment button in the strings.. So the whole "golden triangle" was something that came in later rather than an initial concept. I also know another modder who found some evidence in I believe the executable to support that the idea of equipment made it a lot further than just that string.
I can post proof (but it being simply text it's easy to claim I am pulling it out of my butt), but anyone with Halo PC and the means to view the string lists in it can check it out in POA.
I can post proof (but it being simply text it's easy to claim I am pulling it out of my butt), but anyone with Halo PC and the means to view the string lists in it can check it out in POA.
The only issue I regular encounter is myself or other party members getting booted from Warzone matches at the very start of the match. Seriously Stinkles, when can we expect a fix for this? It's been nearly 6 months!
Samurai G0SU
Member
Yeah, it is all over the place. Some days i have great connecting matching and good matches with the MM working properly. Then the rest of the week i'm playing against teleporting rubberband spartans who dispose me into the garbage can.
Maybe its a population issue
.. im matched a lot with mexicoActually the equipment dates way way way back before that. In Halo 1 they internally label the melee button as equipment button in the strings.. So the whole "golden triangle" was something that came in later rather than an initial concept. I also know another modder who found some evidence in I believe the executable to support that the idea of equipment made it a lot further than just that string.
I can post proof (but it being simply text it's easy to claim I am pulling it out of my butt), but anyone with Halo PC and the means to view the string lists in it can check it out in POA.
Halo 1 also had jetpacks in development (Boarding Action was actually designed around them being in the game) and Halo 2 still has sprint animations left over in the game. Including a hilarious placeholder one where if you sprint with dual SMGs, Chief just drops them and runs forward flipping a double middle finger.
Samurai G0SU
Member
I wish i could see this.