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Halo |OT3| Remember Reach?

Fracas

#fuckonami
The only real question is, am I a great HaloGAFFer to kylej, or the greatest HaloGAFfer to kylej?

lol i know i'm not
 
David/Frank, can one of you guys confirm whether armor abilities can be pick ups in multiplayer or no? I mean in the same way as MLG does it currently with the jetpack.
 
David/Frank, can one of you guys confirm whether armor abilities can be pick ups in multiplayer or no? I mean in the same way as MLG does it currently with the jetpack.

I guess you will be able to place them as pick ups for your maps, not in multiplayer (pretty much like Reach).

AAs were never an issue for me, I'm more concerned about 100% bloom, crappy Magnum and nuke nades :/

It'd have been cool from Bungie to have a classic playlist from launch...
 

Trey

Member
I'm going to focus on the following paragraph because the other two are working on the assumption that the visual ranking system is just better than the one in Reach. Which isn't really the discussion, and not a product of the visual aspect of the system but rather the algorithms running underneath the hood.

Finally it offers some actual incentive to play on, or have that extra game. If you come on and drop a level then you're less likely to go off, because you don't want to end the evening at a loss. It's sort of like gambling, you aim to increase your winnings so to speak. Right now the game just doesn't have that; it has a generic, boring and entirely unoriginal experience system that rewards play time rather than player ability.


I can buy the incentivism angle. While the post game stats have been enough for me, the rankings do give players a little more to play for. A potential problem, though, is the second edge of the double blade: players squatting on their desired rank, once attained, and not playing anymore. That's what Arena tried to alleviate. And on paper it should have been a better system, yet it failed. What's your take on that?

Gonna just tag juices and over to this as well, since I'm kind of indirectly responding to them, too:

Bungie and 343 have let Social get too big for itself. It was always like 50.50 in H2 and H3 and they had alotta ranked playlists to compete in. In Reach there were two now there's just one. They are catering too hard to the casuals who don't even play MP. The casuals play the campaign and a bit of MP then leave. The casuals who do stay are fine getting matched with lower class players, it works in their favor too!

Halo has always been about besting your friends, pooping all over randoms, and acting better than everyone else. That's why its so addicting and fun.

It makes people care. It makes people really try their best to win, to get that 50. It makes every match matter. It's also a good indicator to see if someone is good or not (or a boost
 

ZalinKrow

Member
It makes people care. It makes people really try their best to win, to get that 50. It makes every match matter. It's also a good indicator to see if someone is good or not (or a boost

While I do partially agree, wasn't it also like one of the main causes for boosting (I know you already mentioned it) and all that other shit, like kids selling accounts to other kids? :p Not to mention how shit it was when guys on your team quit out and you knew you were gonna ultimately lose skill over it. I mean, yeah it was useful to see pretty quick how "good" the player was, but it still meant you could get partied up against/with people who were actually much worse or much better than their skill represented.

Tbh I'm not against it coming back, but I wouldn't be disappointed if it didn't either. I've always been more of a social player anyway though. I didn't have a consistent group to play Halo 3 with until the end of it's lifespan, so I never really tried too hard to get a high skill level. I do want a rank to mean a bit more than it does in Reach (check out mah time played brah lol), but it wasn't exactly amazing before either :p

(God damn, got distracted while writing this and good points have been made since, but I'll post this anyway)
 
I guess you will be able to place them as pick ups for your maps, not in multiplayer (pretty much like Reach).

AAs were never an issue for me, I'm more concerned about 100% bloom, crappy Magnum and nuke nades :/

It'd have been cool from Bungie to have a classic playlist from launch...

Oh yeah, that's what I meant. I know there probably aren't going to be any pick up AA's in most multiplayer playlists.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
1-50 DRAMATICALLY increased boosting. Which in turn, decreased its relevance. This is not arguable. That said we are thinking of ways to let players understand relative skill levels without increasing abuse based on that metric.
 
This should replace the newly approved junior survey

There's a survey?


1-50 DRAMATICALLY increased boosting. Which in turn, decreased its relevance. This is not arguable. That said we are thinking of ways to let players understand relative skill levels without increasing abuse based on that metric.

People forget that. Halo 3 was ridiculous for boosters. Arena (attempt 2
electric boogaloo
) rank for every ranked playlist, including Objective.
 

Trey

Member
1-50 DRAMATICALLY increased boosting. Which in turn, decreased its relevance. This is not arguable. That said we are thinking of ways to let players understand relative skill levels without increasing abuse based on that metric.


Big Daddy Frank coming in with authority.

Just rename Arena to dongpocalypse or whatever and ship it.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
While I do partially agree, wasn't it also like one of the main causes for boosting (I know you already mentioned it) and all that other shit, like kids selling accounts to other kids? :p Not to mention how shit it was when guys on your team quit out and you knew you were gonna ultimately lose skill over it. I mean, yeah it was useful to see pretty quick how "good" the player was, but it still meant you could get partied up against/with people who were actually much worse or much better than their skill represented.

Tbh I'm not against it coming back, but I wouldn't be disappointed if it didn't either. I've always been more of a social player anyway though. I didn't have a consistent group to play Halo 3 with until the end of it's lifespan, so I never really tried too hard to get a high skill level. I do want a rank to mean a bit more than it does in Reach (check out mah time played brah lol), but it wasn't exactly amazing before either :p

(God damn, got distracted while writing this and good points have been made since, but I'll post this anyway)
Does it matter if people boost or buy accounts? If they're bad they're going to lose anyway, no matter what their rank is. And a 50 in MLG still meant a lot so the boosting and account selling didn't take away from that. Also, the vast majority of the players had a legitimate rank so it hardly impacted your experience.
 

Homeboyd

Member
1-50 DRAMATICALLY increased boosting. Which in turn, decreased its relevance. This is not arguable. That said we are thinking of ways to let players understand relative skill levels without increasing abuse based on that metric.
I'll agree with that. But would you say that more often than not, when you played against people who were 45+ in skill, they were better than most other players? I know this held true for me most of the time... sure there were times when you could tell a player playing on a 50 wasn't of that skill level, but for me, these encounters were rare. Obviously arena isn't the way to go.. so I wonder, what other possibilities are there?
 
Does it matter if people boost or buy accounts? If they're bad they're going to lose anyway, no matter what their rank is. And a 50 in MLG still meant a lot so the boosting and account selling didn't take away from that. Also, the vast majority of the players had a legitimate rank so it hardly impacted your experience.
It cheapens the entire system, especially when it felt so god damn finicky in the first place.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
I'll agree with that. But would you say that more often than not, when you played against people who were 45+ in skill, they were better than most other players? I know this held true for me most of the time... sure there were times when you could tell a player playing on a 50 wasn't of that skill level, but for me, these encounters were rare. Obviously arena isn't the way to go.. so I wonder, what other possibilities are there?

I found that late 40s was effectively meaningless - so polluted was it by boosters etc. Of course 30 seconds of gaming could disprove that on a case by case basis. Late 30s, early 40s meant I was going to get donged on.

Anyway, we have a couple of things we're looking at.
 
1 account per Xbox can play Halo 4. Problem solved.

I'm kidding, chill out lol

Still had people quitting massive amounts of games to "de-rank".


I found that late 40s was effectively meaningless - so polluted was it by boosters etc. Of course 30 seconds of gaming could disprove that on a case by case basis. Late 30s, early 40s meant I was going to get donged on.

Agreed.

People are only considering boosters from the perspective of 50's, though. Remember how they affect other players who aren't that high. They ruin the whole purpose of matchmaking, as when they "level out"
reach the Tashi-ceiling
, they decide to either make a new account, and ruin the fun for everyone, or "de-rank" and ruin the fun, going down, and up.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
Getting a 50 still means a lot, especially in something like the MLG playlist. Not having a 1-50 system because 3 12-year-olds bought an account is silly.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Getting a 50 still means a lot, especially in something like the MLG playlist. Not having a 1-50 system because 3 12-year-olds bought an account is silly.

The bolded is completely wrong. The numbers were bafflingly large. People with no skill and a lot of time (and occasionally money) on their hands made your 50 a mostly personal achievement.
 

CyReN

Member
1-50 DRAMATICALLY increased boosting. Which in turn, decreased its relevance. This is not arguable. That said we are thinking of ways to let players understand relative skill levels without increasing abuse based on that metric.

but it's a give and take. Yes there will be cheaters, boosters, selling accounts with rank but that's in the minority and will always be there. I'm not going to pretend I have the perfect solution but something similar to how Gears of War 3 had ranks and a progression system worked perfectly from what I've played and heard from others.

I know it's just a number, but it really holds merit to a lot of players like me, we have no desire to play Halo Reach with no ranks, we are competitive people and with no competition or randomness of true skill turns us off . This is from both casuals too (which I was surprised). I believe you guys will do the right thing, and I'm sure I'm beating a dead horse here.
 

ZalinKrow

Member
Does it matter if people boost or buy accounts? If they're bad they're going to lose anyway, no matter what their rank is. And a 50 in MLG still meant a lot so the boosting and account selling didn't take away from that. Also, the vast majority of the players had a legitimate rank so it hardly impacted your experience.

Well, yeah... I mean, sure I get what you're saying. But it wasn't exactly uncommon to go into a ranked playlist, and almost immediatly be able to tell if a guy had a new account because his k/d was insane for his skill level :p It encouraged people to go back to the beginning just so they could go against these "vast majority of players who had a legitimate rank" which in this case is legitimately low, and wreck them :p
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
There are a lot of stupid people in the world, but boosters is a place I just can't go intellectually.

So let me get this straight, you will buy, steal, borrow or boost an account so that you can have a number in front of your gamertag, that you know has NO MEANING because you deliberately spent money and time to make it meaningless. And then, on top of that, a level 28 player could come in and dance on your grave.


SMH.
 
but it's a give and take. Yes there will be cheaters, boosters, selling accounts with rank but that's in the minority and will always be there. I'm not going to pretend I have the perfect solution but something similar to how Gears of War 3 had ranks and a progression system worked perfectly from what I've played and heard from others.

I know it's just a number, but it really holds merit to a lot of players like me, we have no desire to play Halo Reach with no ranks, we are competitive people and with no competition or randomness of true skill it turns us off. This is from both casuals too. I believe you guys will do the right thing, and I'm sure I'm beating a dead horse here.

Shit, someone call the RSPCA!
 
1-50 DRAMATICALLY increased boosting. Which in turn, decreased its relevance. This is not arguable. That said we are thinking of ways to let players understand relative skill levels without increasing abuse based on that metric.

But every system has boosting. The system in Reach has farming. MW2's system was abused more then Halo 2 and Halo 3's imo and there was no meaning in MW2 ranks. No matter what system you have people are going to exploit it, so why not bring back 1-50?

Yes over in Halo 2 essentially 90% of the 40+ ranks were cheaters, but 1-39 for the most part were pretty accurate in what I saw. Not to mention the banhammer doesn't have to worry about modders, and it's drastically improved since 2007.

pls frankie.
 

CyReN

Member
Yes over in Halo 2 essentially 90% of the 40+ ranks were cheaters, but 1-39 for the most part were pretty accurate in what I saw. Not to mention the banhammer doesn't have to worry about modders, and it's drastically improved since 2007.

pls frankie.

Halo 2 was a different animal though, 2 months and easy map modding was rampant. I maybe ran into a cheater 1/10 times in Halo 3.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
lol I almost sold my MLG 50 secondary account. I had an extra 1 month and was bored so I just leveled it up to 50.
 

Trey

Member
Looking forward to Arena 2.0 then.

This post could have been many things. It could have sparked another round of interesting discussion of past ranking system successes and failures in order to work out the best course of action for Halo 4. It could have been an acceptance of the boosting issue in Halo 3 rather than a stubborn dismissal, while fleshing out the major reasons why the system worked when it did. It could have even been a wittier sarcastic reply instead of the stock fallback to "Reach abortion part two."

Instead, history will recognize the lost potential and weep.
 
Halo 2 was a different animal though, 2 months and easy map modding was rampant. I maybe ran into a cheater 1/10 times in Halo 3.

What kind of cheating? I didn't play Halo 2 when it first went online so I can't speak for that time, but what cheating was there in Halo 3 besides language boosting? I don't think I encountered anything but de-rankers, cheating-wise, in Halo 3.
 

Homeboyd

Member
I found that late 40s was effectively meaningless - so polluted was it by boosters etc. Of course 30 seconds of gaming could disprove that on a case by case basis. Late 30s, early 40s meant I was going to get donged on.

Anyway, we have a couple of things we're looking at.
I guess I didn't experience enough of those games in the late 40's to be able to come to the same conclusion. I'm in the "good" category you mentioned and wouldn't be considered a top tier player, but I can see your point.

The thing I LOVED about H3 ranks was, when played the right way, you really felt like you were working towards a goal. One slip up and it can cost you big time. I almost always played solo (and still do) so my chances of getting to the higher ranks were pretty slim, but when I dabbled in the ranked playlists on my "higher" accounts and got matched up with some good players on my team, it was a thrill from start to finish. I didn't want to lose that one battle, that one kill, let that one flag get away, because I knew it would likely mean I'd drop a rank that took me quite some time (and luck) to get to. And then I may have to string another 5-10 wins together before ranking up again.

That's what I miss most from the H3 days. That feeling where every second of every match counted for something. If my teammates were slacking, I had to pick up the weight or we were going to lose and we'd all get punished for it. The teamwork that created was unparalleled to any other shooter I've ever played (even to this date). Granted, I know I was playing this system in the way it was intended and I know it was easily abused. All I can tell you is my personal experience with it and why I feel so differently about Reach as a game. There hasn't been a single match in Reach that made me feel the way I did about one second of those battles back in H3's heyday.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
But every system has boosting. The system in Reach has farming. MW2's system was abused more then Halo 2 and Halo 3's imo and there was no meaning in MW2 ranks. No matter what system you have people are going to exploit it, so why not bring back 1-50?

Yes over in Halo 2 essentially 90% of the 40+ ranks were cheaters, but 1-39 for the most part were pretty accurate in what I saw. Not to mention the banhammer doesn't have to worry about modders, and it's drastically improved since 2007.

pls frankie.

There's no issue with the system, or the nomenclature - it's the poitioning and perceived value. This is one of those instances where you should be careful what you wish for and the law of unintended consequences. But we have some ideas.
 

CyReN

Member
What kind of cheating? I didn't play Halo 2 when it first went online so I can't speak for that time, but what cheating was there in Halo 3 besides language boosting? I don't think I encountered anything but de-rankers, cheating-wise, in Halo 3.

Halo 2:
  • Knifing (Stop the disc from reading maps, so you get dlc to cheat with)
  • Bridging (giving someone host to cheat, or prevent it)
  • Map Modding (Cheat on DLC maps and win for a rank)

Halo 3:
  • Selling accounts
  • Knocking people off (to kick people out of game so it's easier to win)
  • Bridging (giving someone host to cheat, or prevent it)

Halo Reach:
  • Knocking people off (to kick people out of game so it's easier to win)
  • Bridging (giving someone host to cheat, or prevent it)
 
This is one of those instances where you should be careful what you wish for and the law of unintended consequences.
Very true. This is how we end up with an Elder Scrolls MMO wow-clone. ;P

I'm fine with not seeing ranks, although I'm not uber competitive so my perspective probably isn't worth much. But if I was to see anything, trueskill would be fine for me along with another non-skill rank that represents time played. That way you can see whether trueskill has fucked you, and the non-skill rank should at least give you a token idea of the map/playlist knowledge of your opponents.

Why did Arena fail? And do you guys think an Arena 2.0 could work?
 
There's no issue with the system, or the nomenclature - it's the poitioning and perceived value. This is one of those instances where you should be careful what you wish for and the law of unintended consequences. But we have some ideas.

Halo 4: We have some ideas.

;)


I guess I didn't experience enough of those games in the late 40's to be able to come to the same conclusion. I'm in the "good" category you mentioned and wouldn't be considered a top tier player, but I can see your point.

The thing I LOVED about H3 ranks was, when played the right way, you really felt like you were working towards a goal. One slip up and it can cost you big time. I almost always played solo (and still do) so my chances of getting to the higher ranks were pretty slim, but when I dabbled in the ranked playlists on my "higher" accounts and got matched up with some good players on my team, it was a thrill from start to finish. I didn't want to lose that one battle, that one kill, let that one flag get away, because I knew it would likely mean I'd drop a rank that took me quite some time (and luck) to get to. And then I may have to string another 5-10 wins together before ranking up again.

That's what I miss most from the H3 days. That feeling where every second of every match counted for something. If my teammates were slacking, I had to pick up the weight or we were going to lose and we'd all get punished for it. The teamwork that created was unparalleled to any other shooter I've ever played (even to this date). Granted, I know I was playing this system in the way it was intended and I know it was easily abused. All I can tell you is my personal experience with it and why I feel so differently about Reach as a game. There hasn't been a single match in Reach that made me feel the way I did about one second of those battles back in H3's heyday.

:') Beautiful... I really wish Arena would get another go, though. I love the idea of my, or my team's performance in-game reflecting my rank in some fashion. Poorly executed the first time around, maybe, but it has potential, I think.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
This post could have been many things. It could have sparked another round of interesting discussion of past ranking system successes and failures in order to work out the best course of action for Halo 4. It could have been an acceptance of the boosting issue in Halo 3 rather than a stubborn dismissal, while fleshing out the major reasons why the system worked when it did. It could have even been a wittier sarcastic reply instead of the stock fallback to "Reach abortion part two."

Instead, history will recognize the lost potential and weep.
I apologize.
 

CyReN

Member
There's no issue with the system, or the nomenclature - it's the poitioning and perceived value. This is one of those instances where you should be careful what you wish for and the law of unintended consequences. But we have some ideas.

My summer free, let's do this.



 
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