Halo |OT3| Remember Reach?

Nov 8, 2010
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lol no but my point is, other communities get their maps considered because they consistently post maps and test them in an effort to get them in MM. I ask what maps you guys support (and have been for about a year now) and only hear "well I like this map (that's already in MM) but I hate the rest. Get rid of them." Two problems with that; A) it isn't our call to decide what gets added or removed from MM and B) if CC exists to push community maps into MM, why is your solution to just "pull all community maps out"? We aren't going to dissemble because a few people disagree with the maps that made it in, but more relevant to this discussion, no one ever steps up to offer their recommendations.

We constantly are pushing maps that competitive players as a whole enjoy an support, but if it isn't right for a particular task we're working on, then it won't get in for that update. The MM sustain team can pull and push maps as they wish, we can't. Too many people think our role is to sustain MM and manage the playlists. It isn't. At all.

Give us your recommendations for maps you personally support and back (and it would help if they weren't already in MM) or live with what other communities are taking the time to support while you aren't.

I'm with you guys in that a community only playlist would be best and ultimately remove a majority of community maps from other playlists, but again, it isn't our call... Nor is it our place to abuse our relationship with 343 or Bungie to "strongly recommend" anything like that. As an aside; for every Halogaffer that hates "Ellul" let's say, there's an entire community that loves it. So, your move would be to listen to who is most vocal about it and ignore the majority of a community that has been very helpful in spotlighting community maps for us to consider? Don't see a problem with that?
Our solution isn't to pull out community maps on the basis that they're community maps, it's on the basis that they play badly. How about this? Let other communities recommend the maps, then have us run customs on them. Because honestly, I don't trust the "tests" that these other communities run if they've led us to maps like these.
 
Feb 27, 2011
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Our solution isn't to pull out community maps on the basis that they're community maps, it's on the basis that they play badly. How about this? Let other communities recommend the maps, then have us run customs on them. Because honestly, I don't trust the "tests" that these other communities run if they've led us to maps like these.
So basically, a sub-CC version of CC? And you would prefer that CC only push the maps that are approved by HaloGaf?

Really?

I mean I get that you aren't happy with every map that's in matchmaking, but if you already hate the studio produced maps, what chance do Forge maps stand? Would you ever support a map that isn't designed for MLG/Arena/ultra-competitive communities? One thing to remember; we may not all like all the Forge maps in MM for one reason or another, but sometimes they fit the updates we're working on. So a map like Fenris (as mentioned before) is one of my favorites and I've been working to get it added to MM for some time, isn't a great "slayer only" map, so it didn't make it. All the community sees is "well Fenris didn't make it but Ellul did, way to go!"

There's always a lot more to consider with each map and they should never be compared to one another because of special circumstances like whether map A fits a playlist being updated over map B.

The other thing to consider is that the guys putting in the real work, spend hours of their volunteer time to do it... For the community. They don't have a dog in the show, they just want to make the community happy by updating and refreshing the otherwise stale MM hoppers with new maps. This kind of work and support with little to no reward on their part is very generous in my eyes. Of course, I know that doesn't hold much water here.

I'd love for HaloGaf to be more involved in this process, but every attempt we've made here ends up being a wash as no one will step up and put in the work to find maps out there that might be a good fit for a particular playlist update. Even the few here that are willing to participate have to do so in other communities outide of HaloGaf.
 
Jul 3, 2010
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So basically, a sub-CC version of CC? And you would prefer that CC only push the maps that are approved by HaloGaf?

Really?

I mean I get that you aren't happy with every map that's in matchmaking, but if you already hate the studio produced maps, what chance do Forge maps stand? Would you ever support a map that isn't designed for MLG/Arena/ultra-competitive communities? One thing to remember; we may not all like all the Forge maps in MM for one reason or another, but sometimes they fit the updates we're working on. So a map like Fenris (as mentioned before) is one of my favorites and I've been working to get it added to MM for some time, isn't a great "slayer only" map, so it didn't make it. All the community sees is "well Fenris didn't make it but Ellul did, way to go!"

There's always a lot more to consider with each map and they should never be compared to one another because of special circumstances like whether map A fits a playlist being updated over map B.

The other thing to consider is that the guys putting in the real work, spend hours of their volunteer time to do it... For the community. They don't have a dog in the show, they just want to make the community happy by updating an refreshing the otherwise stale MM hoppers with new maps. This kind of work and support with little to no reward on their part is very generous in my eyes. Of course, I know that doesn't hold much water here.

I'd love for HaloGaf to be more involved in this process, but every attempt we've made here ends up being a wash as no one will step up and put in the work to find maps out there that might be a good fit for a particular playlist update. Even the few here that are willing to participate have to do so in other communities outide of HaloGaf.
It would help if more of the maps submitted went through more of a rigorous process. Having the CCs keep everything hidden makes things shitty. I can say that of the new maps I played on 2 of them. The Tempest one has frame drops in single screen. The one with the ghost is okay. But when I look at Blueprint's maps I basically say: "was it playable? Was it at least slightly fun?". If no is the answer for either question I just stop right there.

Here's my 2 cents: make the cc process less invisible to the people. Certain communities are 'corrupt' in the sense that they want their maps in mm and by putting the leaders of these communities in the mm committee is bad.
 
Nov 8, 2010
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So basically, a sub-CC version of CC? And you would prefer that CC only push the maps that are approved by HaloGaf?
I'd prefer if the maps got tested by people who are good at the game, whether or not that's halogaf is immaterial, but I don't have faith that that's what's going on right now.

I mean I get that you aren't happy with every map that's in matchmaking, but if you already hate the studio produced maps, what chance do Forge maps stand?
I've previously voiced my support for MLG versions of disc maps (which essentially just have better movement and weapon sets) and for various forge maps (The Pit and Refuge, for example). And saying that disc maps aren't good therefore forge maps can't be good is disingenuous at best.

Would you ever support a map that isn't designed for MLG/Arena/ultra-competitive communities?
of course, but not for a competitive playlist.

One thing to remember; we may not all like all the Forge maps in MM for one reason or another, but sometimes they fit the updates we're working on.
What updates? What are your qualifications for each map?

There's always a lot more to consider with each map and they should never be compared to one another because of special circumstances like whether map A fits a playlist being updated over map B.
I don't even know if this makes any sense at all. If there's some overarching theme to playlists and maps are picked to fit that theme I've missed it.

The other thing to consider is that the guys putting in the real work, spend hours of their volunteer time to do it... For the community. They don't have a dog in the show, they just want to make the community happy by updating an refreshing the otherwise stale MM hoppers with new maps. This kind of work and support with little to no reward on their part is very generous in my eyes. Of course, I know that doesn't hold much water here.
just because someone spends a lot of time on something doesn't make it good. that's nice for their community, but it doesn't make it appropriate for matchmaking
 
Feb 27, 2011
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It would help if more of the maps submitted went through more of a rigorous process. Having the CCs keep everything hidden makes things shitty. I can say that of the new maps I played on 2 of them. The Tempest one has frame drops in single screen. The one with the ghost is okay. But when I look at Blueprint's maps I basically say: "was it playable? Was it at least slightly fun?". If no is the answer for either question I just stop right there.

Here's my 2 cents: make the cc process less invisible to the people. Certain communities are 'corrupt' in the sense that they want their maps in mm and by putting the leaders of these communities in the mm committee is bad.
Yeah but maps come from other communities than Blueprint. I'm just one rep. What if another CC brings a map to CC testing that I don't personally like? I can say my peace, but that decision on including or denying it isn't mine to make.

As far as the secrecy of the process.. As you know by now, it isn't my place to make that more transparent. I'm following terms presented to me. If I wasn't willing to do that, I would've been happily escorted to the door and Blueprint wouldn't exist. Much like other Forge-focused communities. And in some instances, I can see how protecting these processes makes a lot of sense. Regardless, it just isn't my place to discuss it. It's always been this way. You don't expect 343 of Bungie to talk about their MM plans month's before they launch, why volunteers of the community trusted with this knowledge? It's a difficult place to be in sometimes but it's worth it. For me anyways.

@ Over: best I can say is, it fit what everyone was looking for at the time. I keep asking people to remember the maps some of us have openly supported throughout this process. If they didn't make it, it was for a reason. Select and Synapse made it through and most seem to like them, but you will never hear those getting praised when they're added. You'll only hear how the other maps weren't up to par, in their opinion.

The other thing to consider is that some of the maps that didn't make the cut only need minor tweaks and may be considered in future updates. For instance, you have been very flexible with Refuge and have been more than willing to adjust it as the feedback rolls in.. Which is why it's still being considered rather than pulled from contention. Author's willingness to participate with us goes a long way, even if the ultimate decision to add or remove the map from contention isn't ours. Keeping you motivated to continue this work is the difficult job for us because you compare your map to others that made it in and think "well they just don't get it. I'm going to give up" (I don't mean you specifically...)

As soon as more HaloGaffers start posting community maps (even if it belongs to them), the sooner you guys will see maps YOU like make it in MM. There's a ton of CC's here as well as 343 guys. Missed opportunities is all I see.
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
May 10, 2009
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Too much intelligence mixed with too little wisdom in that thread. Forums are such an awful place to discuss stuff like that.
I'm not even going to read the thread but Devo is attracted to misogyny threads like a moth to a flame. I think it'd be safer and mentally healthier if she stayed away. Some people just have horrible views on sexual issues and there's no changing it (drive-by arguments tend to be the same junk in every thread too) .
 
Feb 27, 2011
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I'd prefer if the maps got tested by people who are good at the game, whether or not that's halogaf is immaterial, but I don't have faith that that's what's going on right now.
Alright, let me get with the other competitive players we test with and I'll ask them to review your MM profile. If everyone says you're "good" enough, we'll contact you each time we start testing. (I'm actually not kidding)

I've previously voiced my support for MLG versions of disc maps (which essentially just have better movement and weapon sets) and for various forge maps (The Pit and Refuge, for example). And saying that disc maps aren't good therefore forge maps can't be good is disingenuous at best.
So your two recommendations are the pit (which is already in MM in MLG) and refuge, a map that is clearly supported by most of HaloGaf. Any others?


of course, but not for a competitive playlist.
Which playlists are competitive?

What updates? What are your qualifications for each map?
We focus on particular playlists for updates (as far as CC is concerned). Updates to other playlists for that particular MM update is not part of our process.

I don't even know if this makes any sense at all. If there's some overarching theme to playlists and maps are picked to fit that theme I've missed it.
You have. See above. We work on specific playlists at a time. So while a particular map may be overall a "better" map in general terms, a lesser "quality" map may play a particular gametype better and thus would be more appropriate for the update.

just because someone spends a lot of time on something doesn't make it good. that's nice for their community, but it doesn't make it appropriate for matchmaking
No, my point was.. If they're spending a lot of time working on it and you're spending zero time... Why would we listen to you over them?
 
Jul 3, 2010
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And I've said before that the process is inefficient and bad. It needs to be updated, but as with almost everything 343 has done with matchmaking it's an idiotic decision. Here's a better way of doing things:

1. CCs collect community maps.
2. CCs submit maps.
3. Maps go into community hopper or are in a publicly submitted list.
4. Maps undergo harder testing with a community thread on Waypoint.
5. Maps are finalized and submitted.

Karl comes up with better process while wandering mall.
 
Jul 17, 2011
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When did synapse and select get updated? Caught. Me offguard in arena.

One thing I never understood, why can't mlg maps be implemented into regilar matchmaking? Their forged maps and even some of the changes they made to regular maps are significant improvements.
 
Nov 8, 2010
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Alright, let me get with the other competitive players we test with and I'll ask them to review your MM profile. If everyone says you're "good" enough, we'll contact you each time we start testing. (I'm actually not kidding)
I appreciate it, but I'm easily not the best person here, and I think that a larger group of people testing is always better. Is it possible to organize more widespread testing of maps, an internal beta, if you will?

So your two recommendations are the pit (which is already in MM in MLG) and refuge, a map that is clearly supported by most of HaloGaf. Any others?
I wouldn't say The Pit is in matchmaking proper. Most people don't play MLG. I support the MLG versions of all the disc maps replacing the default ones, but I doubt that will happen, and that's not your responsibility anyway


Which playlists are competitive?
all of them outside action sack and living dead?

We focus on particular playlists for updates (as far as CC is concerned). Updates to other playlists for that particular MM update is not part of our process.


You have. See above. We work on specific playlists at a time. So while a particular map may be overall a "better" map in general terms, a lesser "quality" map may play a particular gametype better and thus would be more appropriate for the update.
fair enough, I didn't understand where you were going with this before

No, my point was.. If they're spending a lot of time working on it and you're spending zero time... Why would we listen to you over them?
so I'm not allowed to criticize anything if I don't create anything? So people aren't allowed to criticize bad movies if they've never spend any time making better movies?
 
Aug 5, 2010
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Chest too hairy, Drogo waxes.

My opinion on MM forge maps: as is so often the case in many things Halo, MLG does it better. I'd like to see MLG maps such as the pit and Sanc (or an improved version) in regular playlists. Remember how good Onslaught was in H3? Then remember Smashed?

What I don't understand is how do Bungie (and 343 for their short stint in charge) get things like forge maps, objective settings and weapon placement/balance so wrong in so many instances whereas MLG, which is essentially Killa KC and a small pool of testers get it bang on the money practically every time? 343 should hire the guy.
 
Jul 1, 2011
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Signs' last 10 minutes are so good, the birthday tape still gives me goossbumps.

About Halo, I was pretty dissapointed about Fenris, Cornerstone and Refuge don't making the cut, those maps were cleanly forged and played pretty well.

Anyway, I don't think the maps added were bad, they're prettygood imo.
 
Jun 12, 2011
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And guys, community maps aren't your fault. Y'all have talent working forge I could never imagine having! With that said, no matter how well you dress up reach it is still forge world and it's still reach.

You can put a bowtie on a turd but it's still a piece of shit.
 
Apr 15, 2007
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Chest too hairy, Drogo waxes.

My opinion on MM forge maps: as is so often the case in many things Halo, MLG does it better. I'd like to see MLG maps such as the pit and Sanc (or an improved version) in regular playlists. Remember how good Onslaught was in H3? Then remember Smashed?

What I don't understand is how do Bungie (and 343 for their short stint in charge) get things like forge maps, objective settings and weapon placement/balance so wrong in so many instances whereas MLG, which is essentially Killa KC and a small pool of testers get it bang on the money practically every time? 343 should hire the guy.
MLG get it so right because they know exactly what their audience is, and what they enjoy. The problem Bungie and now 343 will have is 'Slayer' is such a broad term that it's incredibly hard to find a set of maps that suit all of the population. I genuinely believe that there are people out there who love to just run riot on these terrible maps, because competition and balance isn't paramount to them. In fact, I know they exist, I've been in games where Smashed and The Cage have been chosen.

MLG is a far easier playlist to cater too because by definition it's targeting a certain group of players, rather than a specific gametype. I'd love to see 343 do more of that in the future as far as playlists go. Have 'BK Bonanza Slayer' with needlers and gravity hammers, and have 'competitive slayer' with symmetrical maps and tweaked weapons.
 
Feb 27, 2011
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so I'm not allowed to criticize anything if I don't create anything? So people aren't allowed to criticize bad movies if they've never spend any time making better movies?
Of course you are. And I actually didn't mean you specifically, I just meant that you're asking us to listen to a few guys who always criticize decisions without offering reasonable solutions who also aren't putting in the time that others are willing to put in.

D slurping aside; I think the reason people listen to Ghal on FF issues is because he puts in a lot of time playing it and offering solutions. People listen to Tashi and Cyren (and others) on MLG issues because they play it a lot and are willing to put in the effort to make it better. People listen to juices because he does the same with playlist mgmt feedback. It's harder to take feedback from those who aren't willing to put in the effort to make things better outside of random complaints and criticism.

Anyone and everyone is always welcome to offer criticism. I'm just saying, until you offer up some reasonable solutions and put forth the efforts to make it happen, don't expect it to. I (among other CC's) have done that many times here and yet nothing gets recommended, as far as maps go. Again, playlist mgmt advice isn't for CC to take as it isn't our job.
 
Jul 3, 2010
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Yeah again, I would LOVE and wholeheartedly support a community beta playlist. Don't think it's going to happen though.
Then do the public list. Blizzard does that with SC2 before they update the map pool. Some can get rejected if the siege glitch can be performed on them or anything else game breaking. Basically the public needs to know before they actually get added into the selection.
 
Feb 27, 2011
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Then do the public list. Blizzard does that with SC2 before they update the map pool. Some can get rejected if the siege glitch can be performed on them or anything else game breaking. Basically the public needs to know before they actually get added into the selection.
And that's exactly what I've tried to do with Blueprint. Offer a place to get the communities opinion on maps before they're pushed. I'm pretty open about what I can be open about there.

But the problem with "letting the community decide" is the communities will never, ever agree on one single map. If blueprint thinks maps A, B and C should go in; Halogaf says maps D, E and F are the best, waypoint says G, H and I are the highest quality... Then what? Most communities aren't really open to compromise. It's usually "well we're better players than they are, they don't count" or something like that.

A beta playlist means the votes can win. You like a map? Vote for it in MM. You don't? Don't vote for it. Don't want to participate? Don't complain. It's so much easier to post a few complaint posts here than it is to participate consistently in making MM a better place for our entire community.. Not just for a select few communities.
 
Apr 12, 2010
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I'd love to see 343 do more of that in the future as far as playlists go. Have 'BK Bonanza Slayer' with needlers and gravity hammers, and have 'competitive slayer' with symmetrical maps and tweaked weapons.

Sounds a lot like H2 to me... Team Hardcore vs Team Slayer vs Team Training...

Oh how I miss thee


Ugh my neice just got a hold of my headset while I was in the bathroom and she cracked them :(

Ugh, probably gonna deal with these until I can get a new pair.

Would be so mad lol