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Halo |OT4| Trust's a Tough Thing to Come by These Days

Rtas

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Dec 11, 2009
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I hate CEA at the moment, just did the achievement finish the library on legendary in 30 mins or less, I did it with 4 minutes to spare, and it didn't give me the achievement.
 

Steelyuhas

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Apr 22, 2010
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Valhalla: Sit on hill to win game because hill is nearly unassailable, Pelican and base imbalance (easier to trap cliffside team), one giant useless space over by turret/bubble shield/radio tower spawn.
Tempest: No vehicle routes, enemies spawn on top of objective spot making pushes very difficult, massive swaths of useless space behind each base, a plethora of hiding spots, and the fact that the map just should not have sniper rifles.

Neither work well with the standard 4v4 and 8v8 player count, instead being best in the Squad Battle 6v6 environment that is always dead a month after it launches.

On Avalanche: Map would have drastically benefited from movement of the Overshield and Snipers away from the middle hallway, removal of the laser, and decreased spawn timers for light vehicles. It's still probably my favorite Halo 3 map, right beside Standoff.
Hopefully Halo 4 brings a stop to the maps that are pretty much designed for 6v6 despite that being a very rare setup for Halo (a single playlist that usually dies pretty quickly).

Reach had two clear 6v6 maps: Tempest and Condemned. I'd hope for zero.
 

GhaleonEB

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Valhalla: Sit on hill to win game because hill is nearly unassailable,
Hill was exposed to fire from all sides, made you vulnerable to sniper fire, and it was fun to drop a Power Drain on packs of guys camped out there.

Pelican and base imbalance (easier to trap cliffside team),
Never noticed this, myself, but could be.

one giant useless space over by turret/bubble shield/radio tower spawn.
Used heavily for vehicle and infantry flag runs (hit man cannon, get to Mongoose for the escape), and to flank players on the hill or at Pelican. Also had turret, great for vehicle ambushes.

CTF on Valhalla is sort of my definitive Halo experience, I could play it forever.
On Avalanche: Map would have drastically benefited from movement of the Overshield and Snipers away from the middle hallway, removal of the laser, and decreased spawn timers for light vehicles. It's still probably my favorite Halo 3 map, right beside Standoff.
Agree with the changes, in particular the laser. With one major route for vehicles it was unfortunate to put the laser there. Likewise on Valhalla, which should have had rockets instead.

I still think not placing a sniper on Standoff was one of the best weapon decisions Bungie made with Halo 3, that map played so good without it.
 

Havok

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Jun 29, 2007
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They could have, y'know, put the maps in Invasion and use them as Skirmish maps, but that would violate the 3rd rule of Playlist Management: You are not allowed to support Invasion post-launch.
Nobody votes for Skirmish in my experience, adding them would be a waste. Inv. Skirmish/Slayer seem to just be there as padding.

Hill was exposed to fire from all sides, made you vulnerable to sniper fire, and it was fun to drop a Power Drain on packs of guys camped out there.
[snip]
Used heavily for vehicle and infantry flag runs (hit man cannon, get to Mongoose for the escape), and to flank players on the hill or at Pelican. Also had turret, great for vehicle ambushes.
It's hard to do this without being super anecdotal, but if the enemy team had a setup involving the Pelican, the hill was pretty much locked because the only viable assault route was from the river, which doesn't have enough cover to make it particularly effective. The one major setup that I noticed being used involved a sniper overwatch either at Pelican or the side ridge of the hill so that the enemy sniper was always dealt with quickly. It wasn't something that happened every game or anything, but often enough that my opinion of the map was brought down a few notches.

That field was just too open for my tastes, in particular with regards to infantry movement--I agree that the map had to have a good vehicle route, and that was the only really truly safe one. Flanking players on the hill wasn't feasible in my experience, because there is just no cover out there so it became a dead man's land in 4v4. I should probably specify that 4v4 is where most of these problems arose for me. I don't think it's a particularly wonderful 8v8 map, but the increased player count smooths out some of the wrinkles.

It's hard to come across as anything but a reductivist when talking about a map like this since it's placed so highly in the minds of so many. I like the map, just wish it didn't have the problems it did. I could do this for nearly any map in the series.
 

Ramirez

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Jun 7, 2004
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not really. Most times in a vehicle on Avalanche you were either powerdrained, driving around aimlessly and hoping to see a person/immediately get blown up by the tank, or you were so bored that you hit the mancannons to fly into the enemy base.
Yea, I must be imagining all of those times I waped with the Hornet & watched Eazy take a dump on the BKs base with the Chopper.

Valhalla was the definitive BTB map for me, people who complain about the hill being overpowered kind of miss the point, it was the central part of the map for the tug of war game that BTB should be in objective...
 

kylej

Banned
Mar 2, 2006
12,362
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Yea, I must be imagining all of those times I waped with the Hornet & watched Eazy take a dump on the BKs base with the Chopper.

Valhalla was the definitive BTB map for me, people who complain about the hill being overpowered kind of miss the point, it was the central part of the map for the tug of war game that BTB should be in objective...
If piloting the hornet and roaming around with the chopper is considered amazing vehicle combat, I dunno what to say. Avalanche was boring as shit.

The only good BTB maps in Halo 3 were Valhalla and Standoff. Maybe Last Resort when you could sit on the wall and camp beach spawns.
 

GhaleonEB

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If the enemy team had a setup involving the Pelican, the hill was pretty much locked because the only viable assault route was from the river, which doesn't have enough cover to make it particularly effective. The one major setup that I noticed being used involved a sniper overwatch either at Pelican or the side ridge of the hill so that the enemy sniper was always dealt with quickly. It wasn't something that happened every game or anything, but often enough that my opinion of the map was brought down a few notches.
The trick with Valhalla is it really leveraged team play. A team holding the hill could be broken, but it required a bit a teamwork to break, which was often tough to come by in matchmaking outside of a party. A setup with hill/Pelican control required some combination of a coordinated "pinch" maneuver hitting the Pelican and hill at once, or a sniper lending cover, or a Warthog working the hill while infantry worked one flank. There were many ways to break it, but most required some coordination. That's part of what I loved about it.

Or just me with a power drain, some backup and a few plasma grenades.

That field was just too open for my tastes, in particular with regards to infantry movement--I agree that the map had to have a good vehicle route, and that was the only really truly safe one. Flanking players on the hill wasn't feasible in my experience, because there is just no cover out there so it became a dead man's land in 4v4.
Valhalla was a BTB map to the core, so I don't think I ever put much if any time into it in 4v4. The BR just didn't have the range to hit players working around the sides if they wanted to get around the hill, and it was a good route to use the Warthog to get around the hill. I maintain the infantry/vehicle balance was as good as it ever was in the series, though. I found I was able to arrive at solutions to every setup teams could put down (though as I said without some coordination it was sometimes difficult).
 

Kuroyume

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Jun 7, 2004
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Valhalla was terrible.
Avalanche was great... Especially for objective.
Tempest is a good multi team map.
 

FyreWulff

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Valhalla: a supposedly symmetrical map where the center hill is a low slope to the top for blue team and a near sheer cliff for red. But I guess at least the bases are the same m i rite

edit: standoff also went to shit in the later updates where BTB became 100% BR start. Objective just became a deathgrind until one team decided to quit.
 

GhaleonEB

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All those nades flying through the air, just trying to flip over the enemy hog for an extra split second head start.
I was quite the sight. Sometimes I would just step back and watch the contrails of ~20 frag grenades cross the map against the sun, like an unusually deadly hail storm.

At this point, I just want a BTB map in Halo 4 that I can look forward to. There's literally not a single BTB map in Reach I want to play on. I miss seeing Valhalla or Avalanche or Standoff (among others) pop up and getting excited. With Reach's maps I just sort of resigned to whatever got voted in.
 

Homeboyd

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There's some GI stuff on Halo 4 in the waypoint news. I'd link but I'm on my phone and it's too much trouble. Anyone watch the vids yet?
 

op_ivy

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Jun 7, 2004
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anyone down for drunken birthday multi-team?
 

GhaleonEB

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There's some GI stuff on Halo 4 in the waypoint news. I'd link but I'm on my phone and it's too much trouble. Anyone watch the vids yet?
I saw they were two videos, which I thought were posted a few weeks ago on the GI site. Didn't watch though, they just looked like they were the same.
 

Computron

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Dec 27, 2010
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Looking at some Artem Volchik Reach work. Damn, the ol' Easybake is looking FINE in chrome.



DAT INORGANIC HARDSURFASS.


It makes me wish this guy was made by the Covenant:

 

Tawpgun

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All those nades flying through the air, just trying to flip over the enemy hog for an extra split second head start.
<3

RIP Halo BTB

2001-2010

Hopefully Halo 4 can bring it back from the grave.


Valhalla: a supposedly symmetrical map where the center hill is a low slope to the top for blue team and a near sheer cliff for red. But I guess at least the bases are the same m i rite

edit: standoff also went to shit in the later updates where BTB became 100% BR start. Objective just became a deathgrind until one team decided to quit.
Ok you lost me here.

Halo 3 BTB was amazing. Except when AR Starts on Last Resort or something similar. *shudders* BTB should always be precision weapon start. Ain't no other way.

PS are you responsible for Cragmire because if so I got some problems with you
 

FyreWulff

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<3

RIP Halo BTB

2001-2010

Hopefully Halo 4 can bring it back from the grave.



Ok you lost me here.

Halo 3 BTB was amazing. Except when AR Starts on Last Resort or something similar. *shudders* BTB should always be precision weapon start. Ain't no other way.

PS are you responsible for Cragmire because if so I got some problems with you
"Let's make a wide open map, then give everyone a gun that can fire across the entire map".

Poop on a crap-covered poopcake for objective.

edit: not to say I don't have some good memories from that map.

 

senador

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Jul 5, 2011
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I go both ways on that. Sucks not being able to hit anything on a huge map, also sucks when everyone can. Hoping 4's maps and weapons are balanced well for this. Was going to say the new BR sounds perfect since its more midrange, but you can most likely spawn with DMR so...

VV I hope the new DMR isn't "if you see it you can shoot it" and has a range to it.
 

GhaleonEB

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"Let's make a wide open map, then give everyone a gun that can fire across the entire map".

Poop on a crap-covered poopcake for objective.
But the BR could not fire across the entire map. You could not fire base to base, or base to silo, or across the map length or cross wise. Rock line to rock line was in the ideal range for the weapon, and much beyond that you were pinging players at best. Flanking bases on foot was made possible by the fact that you were not going to get BR'd to death, by virtue of the distance players had to clear in order to engage.

It was a BTB map, and the BR was entirely appropriate on it. Now the DMR, that sucker would have wreaked it.
edit: not to say I don't have some good memories from that map.

That would be Standoff Heavies, the only map/gametype combo in Halo 3 I refused to play, quitting from the moment is started, in Halo 3's run. Good lord what a broken mess....
 

FyreWulff

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But the BR could not fire across the entire map. You could not fire base to base, or base to silo, or across the map length or cross wise. Rock line to rock line was in the ideal range for the weapon, and much beyond that you were pinging players at best. Flanking bases on foot was made possible by the fact that you were not going to get BR'd to death, by virtue of the distance players had to clear in order to engage.

It was a BTB map, and the BR was entirely appropriate on it.
BR starts work for Slayer BTB. It's fine there. You're not trying to capture a part of the map.

When you give everyone a long distance gun off spawn for objective, everybody is encouraged to just sit back and pot shot, and there's no real incentive to taking the flag out the side doors when they'll just be able to shoot you as soon as they respawn, no matter which door you choose. So it just becomes a tiresome slog until one team blinks and the game ends 1-0.

Letting everyone shoot anywhere on the map defeats the point of playing on a big map in objective. There SHOULD be players you can't hit because you made bad decisions or failed to cover that part of the map. Instead, it's just die, respawn, engage immediately within seconds of spawn, return flag. Poop. Dashboard within 3 minutes. Not even worthy of an actual quit.
 

Tawpgun

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Just curious, are there any gametypes you think can be non-precision-weapon starts?
From basic gametypes? Not really. It's just a matter of tolerance. I can bear through AR starts on most regular maps. On big maps? God no.

"Let's make a wide open map, then give everyone a gun that can fire across the entire map".

Poop on a crap-covered poopcake for objective.

edit: not to say I don't have some good memories from that map.

I see your logic.

But I don't see why you think it was bad. AR starts was hella worse. It was an unorganized mess and it was insanely hard to fight back against a hog.

No AR starts on BTB.

Ever.

Ever.

Ever ever ever ever.

And besides, the Halo 3 BR's spread pinged people across the map. Was hardly effective.
 

GhaleonEB

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BR starts work for Slayer BTB. It's fine there. You're not trying to capture a part of the map.

When you give everyone a long distance gun off spawn for objective, everybody is encouraged to just sit back and pot shot, and there's no real incentive to taking the flag out the side doors when they'll just be able to shoot you as soon as they respawn, no matter which door you choose. So it just becomes a tiresome slog until one team blinks and the game ends 1-0.

Letting everyone shoot anywhere on the map defeats the point of playing on a big map in objective. There SHOULD be players you can't hit because you made bad decisions or failed to cover that part of the map. Instead, it's just die, respawn, engage immediately within seconds of spawn, return flag. Poop. Dashboard within 3 minutes. Not even worthy of an actual quit.
I agree on smaller maps, and in abstract for some objective games, but I really never felt it was a problem on Standoff due to the map design. True there were a lot of extended shootouts, but that was sort of what the map was about. I did have a fair number of games with a low score count, but that felt appropriate give the name of the map. :p

The range on the Halo 3 BR was short enough that I seldom felt it hurt how maps played, in paticular in a BTB context where there was almost always ample room to maneuver beyond its range. The DRM really puts it in stark relief.
No AR starts on BTB.

Ever.

Ever.

Ever ever ever ever.

And besides, the Halo 3 BR's spread pinged people across the map. Was hardly effective.
This. This. This.
 

Rand0m TAG

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Jul 17, 2011
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BR starts work for Slayer BTB. It's fine there. You're not trying to capture a part of the map.

When you give everyone a long distance gun off spawn for objective, everybody is encouraged to just sit back and pot shot, and there's no real incentive to taking the flag out the side doors when they'll just be able to shoot you as soon as they respawn, no matter which door you choose. So it just becomes a tiresome slog until one team blinks and the game ends 1-0.

Letting everyone shoot anywhere on the map defeats the point of playing on a big map in objective. There SHOULD be players you can't hit because you made bad decisions or failed to cover that part of the map. Instead, it's just die, respawn, engage immediately within seconds of spawn, return flag. Poop. Dashboard within 3 minutes. Not even worthy of an actual quit.
not sure if serious...

dmr, i may understand your situation, but if you are referring to halo 3, i would like to know what br you were using.
also ar starts can burn in hell
 

ViewtifulJC

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Then it's decided. BR starts >>>>>> DMR starts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AR starts. BR gives you something to do at mid-range, but doesn't give you a 3x scope to snipe people across the map and defeat the point.

Agreed? Yes? Yes

Frankie, make it so.
 

Tawpgun

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Then it's decided. BR starts >>>>>> DMR starts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AR starts. BR gives you something to do at mid-range, but doesn't give you a 3x scope to snipe people across the map and defeat the point.

Agreed? Yes? Yes

Frankie, make it so.
I sign off.

But I'm expecting the whole loadout shenanigans to make a DMR spawn possible in BTB.
 

GhaleonEB

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DMR is confirmed to have 3x scope, guys. And Frankie mentioned DMR default loadout for a BTB map for example.

We're already screwed
When was this? I've been scouting out every bit of information I can on the Halo 4 DMR in hopes of learning it has a 2x scope, and I've not found anything on it.