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[Deputy Moonman]

With just a bit of lag zero bloom falls apart into the sloppiest shittiest game I've ever played.

I don't know about this. Lag will make any game type sloppy. Bloom just hides it. Did I miss my shots because of lag or because I wasn't pacing my shots. That's bloom's ultimate disguise. ZB has been a lot of fun for me.

 

[Falt]

Moved to another country. Finally got interwebs this morning. Jumped right into the TU.

Managed to squeeze 3 games in before going to work, no idea where I stand on it yet. Tickle me curious.

Trying to catch up on the last few pages and grab impressions.

Positive so far!

 

[The Librarian]

What's with the rampant quitting in the Beta hopper? I've only been playing Action Sack for the past 1-2 months, and it's not like this in there. Is it like this in every other popular playlist?

 

[TheOddOne]

The trailer TheOddOne posted does make it look quite interesting...

Do it.

 

[Homeboyd]

What's with the rampant quitting in the Beta hopper? I've only been playing Action Sack for the past 1-2 months, and it's not like this in there. Is it like this in every other popular playlist?

Might be because of the weekly challenge. People are dropping out of games if they get behind in a game quickly. Don't want to waste time I guess.

 

[Havok]

What's with the rampant quitting in the Beta hopper? I've only been playing Action Sack for the past 1-2 months, and it's not like this in there. Is it like this in every other popular playlist?

It's no worse than any other competitive playlist. The quit ban is obviously not a deterrent.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Seems like I've been having quitters on my team or the other team about every other game. I think it's just an influx of everyone flocking to a new playlist, but not wanting to play certain game types.

 

[wwm0nkey]

It's no worse than any other competitive playlist. The quit ban is obviously not a deterrent.

They really should take away some Cr from quitters

 

[Deputy Moonman]

They really should take away some Cr from quitters

I really think this is a great idea. For every game you quit, you lose at least what you would normally make in one game. Let's say around 2000 credits. And it gets worse the more you quit. Excellent.

 

[LeonSKennedy90]

I really think this is a great idea. For every game you quit, you lose at least what you would normally make in one game. Let's say around 2000 credits. And it gets worse the more you quit. Excellent.

That's what Gears of War 3 does for ranked. You quit out, you lose 2000 XP, along with not getting any of the XP from that match

 

[Ken]

I really think this is a great idea. For every game you quit, you lose at least what you would normally make in one game. Let's say around 2000 credits. And it gets worse the more you quit. Excellent.

Quitters should just lose all their credits when the quit ban is triggered and have a random piece of unlocked armor revert to locked for every additional quit after.

Spoiler

The True Dark Souls Halo starts here.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

They really should take away some Cr from quitters

Or better yet a 24 hour credit ban, but still does someone who gets booted count as a quitter? I ask because it's not quite so clear cut, if quitting is not the same as being booted then people will just start to betray (more) just to get booted and not get a credit ban.

If quitting is treated like a boot, then what happens to those people that betrayed by accident? is it fair?

Dealing with quitting is a tricky thing to manage, when you throw disconnects and betrayals in to the mix.

 

[PooBone]

Or better yet a 24 hour credit ban, but still does someone who gets booted counted as a quitter? I ask because it's not quite so clear cut, if quitting is not the same as being booted then people will just start to betray (more) just to get booted and not get a credit ban.

If quitting is treated like a boot, then what happens to those people that betrayed by accident? is it fair?

Dealing with quitting is a tricky thing to manage, when you throw disconnects and betrayals in to the mix.

That's a pretty good idea. If what they're doing is farming for credits, take that away from em. They can still play, but can't abuse and ruin the game for others.

 

[Devolution]

Seems like I've been having quitters on my team or the other team about every other game. I think it's just an influx of everyone flocking to a new playlist, but not wanting to play certain game types.

Some of those maps aren't doing the playlist any favors. Heh.

 

[Ken]

That's a pretty good idea. If what they're doing is farming for credits, take that away from em. They can still play, but can't abuse and ruin the game for others.

It does nothing against quitters who don't care about credits though.

 

[PooBone]

It does nothing against quitters who don't care about credits though.

That's true. I thought there was a temp ban in place for quitters/team killers? I don't know, I think I've probably quit one game in the entirety of Reach's lifespan.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Kind of out of random but you know what I want to see in a future Halo title?

A Numerous War mode like ChromeHounds, more games need a mode like that.
Though I do think something like that is probably going to be the basis of Bungie's new game.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

That's a pretty good idea. If what they're doing is farming for credits, take that away from em. They can still play, but can't abuse and ruin the game for others.

I think it will hurt the population. It's a sad fact that most people's main incencetive to play is getting credits, so when you take that away from people who quit, it will be visable in the population.

 

[Ken]

I think it will hurt the population. It's a sad fact that most people's main incencetive to play is getting credits, so when you take that away from people who quit, it will be visable in the population.

Or maybe some percentage of the quitting population are players who get matched up against teams way above their own skill levels, aren't having fun constantly getting killed, and quit because of it? People seem to complain a lot about quitters on their own team, but what about quitters on the opposite team? I think a good matchmaking system could bring down the population of quitters by a decent amount; won't get rid of every quitter though since some just quit to be jerks but it seems like a better solution than trying to attack their credit gain.

 

[Devolution]

I think the quitting problem requires a couple different solutions all targeted at making the game fun first at foremost. Even just dealing with the people who quit negatively won't be a big enough deterrent. If they lose credits or get banned, they'll just stop playing that day or all together, and that will take a bite out of the gaming population. I think that's why you won't see too many lasting or more extreme penalties for quitting.

I believe these things need to happen in order to keep quitting down in 4:

Most playlists, especially the more competitive ones should be sans guests.

Much of the quitting I see is when a solo player is matched with 2 or more guests. Especially if this guy or girl sees a full opposing team. Which brings me to my next point.


Halo needs a solo players only list.

If you're goin' at it solo (i feel for you before I got people who stay up late and a bunch of gaffers my time schedule was all kinds of fucked up so I played alone) but still want to play team related stuff, there should be a matchmaking that you can enter so that you are playing other "pick up groups" (lol mmo reference) instead of full teams.

Now this would negatively impact the search times for "premades" but if there were credit bonuses for grouping together, that would encourage people to do so, even knowing they'd be up against better teams. And again this brings me to my next point.


Trueskill needs an overhaul.

For whatever reason the ranking and trueskill system in Reach is for lack of a better word, crap. I don't understand why an arena like (it doesn't have to be made public) rank system isn't playlist wide. But when people are constantly getting matched against their betters, they will quit. The game isn't fun when you're being wrecked and people aren't going to stick it out, period. It's not their responsibility either.

Somewhere along the lines people forgot this is a game, and if people aren't having fun there is no real obligation for them to stay in game. Which is why one has to look deep into what is the catalyst that makes for a lot of quitters, straight up penalization just isn't going to cut it.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Actually now that I think of it I like the mvc 3 approach, quitters getting matched up with quitters! A quitter would be determined by a high DNF percentage, the only way to return to 'normal' matchmaking would be to stay in the games and thus bring down your DNF percentage. if not, then enjoy your stay in quitsville.

 

[Devolution]

Actually now that I think of it I like the mvc 3 approach, quitters getting matched up with quitters! A quitter would be determined by a high DNF percentage, the only way to return to 'normal' matchmaking would be to stay in the games, if not, then enjoy your stay in quitsville.

The only problem I see is where do you draw the line at what makes a habitual quitter? Would someone quit less if they were matched properly in the first place?

 

[xxxstylzxxx]

Some of those maps aren't doing the playlist any favors. Heh.

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[Ken]

Actually now that I think of it I like the mvc 3 approach, quitters getting matched up with quitters! A quitter would be determined by a high DNF percentage, the only way to return to 'normal' matchmaking would be to stay in the games and thus bring down your DNF percentage. if not, then enjoy your stay in quitsville.

If I quit every time I got matched up with Phoenix/Amaterasu/Morrigan or Arthur/Sentinel/x I would be a habitual quitter. Matchmaking in MvC3 seems to be much worse than Reach's, as I'm getting matched up against players who have 500 some wins while I only have 14.

 

[Devolution]

The spawns alone on uncaged leave so much to be desired. I for one love spawning down snipe only to see two of the opposing team mates looking down on me from the tower area. I'm usually nade spammed to death before I can even hightail it out of there via the man cannon.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

The only problem I see is where do you draw the line at what makes a habitual quitter? Would someone quit less if they were matched properly in the first place?

They could make it like a bar or something like that, it slides to the left when you quit and back again when you finish your entire game.

And yes, matchmaking should be better at matching people. Arena does this a lot better then all other playlists in Reach's matchmaking so one step for Reach could be to ad that to the more competetive playlists.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

The only problem I see is where do you draw the line at what makes a habitual quitter? Would someone quit less if they were matched properly in the first place?

You are right about that I guess, but the idea I had was that everyone starts at 0% DNF when the game launches, then the DNF percentage is determined from than on.

Maybe 343 can reset the DNF record for all players every 4 months or so? So that the cycle can begin again perhaps?

Like I said I said there are many ways of going about it, each idea has disadvantages.

If I quit every time I got matched up with Phoenix/Amaterasu/Morrigan or Arthur/Sentinel/x I would be a habitual quitter. Matchmaking in MvC3 seems to be much worse than Reach's, as I'm getting matched up against players who have 500 some wins while I only have 14.

Whilst no one can do anything about the characters the player chooses, capcom could have built in tighter matchmaking system. Although I have never really played fighting game online, so I don't what parameters would be fair.

 

[Devolution]

You are right about that I guess, but the idea I had was that everyone starts at 0% DNF when the game launches, then the DNF percentage is determined from than on.

Maybe 343 can reset the DNF record for all players every 4 months or so? So that the cycle can begin again perhaps?

Like I said I said there are many ways of going about it, each idea has disadvantages.

There needs to be penalties for sure, but I think only considering a post-quit penalty system isn't going to solve the real issue: what's making people quit in droves in the first place. It only serves to deal with the effect (quitting) not the cause (whatever makes it happen such as a lack of fun). And even the penalties might just drive people away altogether. There obviously needs to be some real changes in 4, I hope 343 doesn't make the same mistakes Bungie did and ignore growing problems within the MM structure.

 

[Tunavi]

If someone doesn't want to stay in a shitty unenjoyable game, you can't penalize them for quitting. You just can't.

There needs to be a mercy rule after a certain number people quit after a certain score.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

A good quitter punishment system will always count betrayal boots as quits, but to do that you need a better betrayal booting system.

Make your quitter punishment too severe and you condemn the poor souls in a 4v1 game; a good surrender/forfeit option is needed to fix that.

There are a ton of interconnected systems that all need to be designed together to prevent punishing good players - idle detection, player investment/credits, challenges, map voting.

As Devo mentions, an important part of the solution is figuring out why people are quitting and try to reduce that as much as possible. I have some ideas I'm trying to wrangle into a wishlist article for my imaginary Halo: Misriah Edition.

 

[feel]

What's with the rampant quitting in the Beta hopper? I've only been playing Action Sack for the past 1-2 months, and it's not like this in there. Is it like this in every other popular playlist?

People don't like sitting through a map/gametype they don't like. You can't really get mad at all the quitters, it's a videogame, they're playing it with the hopes of relaxing and having a good time after having a stressful day at work or something. The quitting is the fault of Bungie's/343's matchmaking implementation and management, most of the competing games allow people to play what they want to play, in Halo they want to you suffer through stuff you don't want to play, to get to what you want. So people quit and I can't blame them, again, it's supposed to be a fun videogame. The only anti-quitting measure that should exist is the game being a fun to play at all time, going through far lengths to punish people who leave when they're not having fun is insane. People should be able to opt-out of stuff in their matchmaking options, THEN punish them if they quit something they told the game they were ok with.

new rules to get the twitch tv parnetship. 25000 views in a month you could do that for me if you werent so fucking lazy halogaf.

Would tune in if I liked you.

Full off-topic disclosure:

Spoiler

I am a bit salty with MS after they killed the XBLA port of Immortal Defense (a game I programmed the campaign/level editor for) because a bigger publisher wanted their own tower defense game on XBLA.

Thems the breaks though.

You can probably imagine how heartbreaking it was to tell family that they could actually play a game on their Xbox with your name on it soon then BOOM NOPE LOL.

That's rough man

 

[Devolution]

If someone doesn't want to stay in a shitty unenjoyable game, you can't penalize them for quitting. You just can't.

There needs to be a mercy rule after a certain number people quit after a certain score.

I think you can penalize them for constantly quitting out. They should stop playing altogether, not fuck up everyone else's experience because they're a masochist who can't help themselves.

People don't like sitting through a map/gametype they don't like. You can't really get mad at all the quitters, it's a videogame, they're playing it with the hopes of relaxing and having a good time after having a stressful day at work or something. The quitting is the fault of Bungie's/343's matchmaking implementation and management, most of the competing games allow people to play what they want to play, in Halo they want to you suffer through stuff you don't want to play, to get to what you want. So people quit and I can't blame them, again, it's supposed to be a fun videogame.

This is a good point and just why I miss server hopping on PC. Like a set of specific maps and gametypes? Chill there.

In an optimal situation there would be a team tracking various MM trends, what gametypes do people quit most out of? Remove that shit. What maps do people quit out of most? Reduce it coming up in the options. The majority votes terribly but I'm sure you could look past some of their terrible opinions at the inner workings of the game to see what gametypes and maps influence quitting the most. Then figure out just why. Hell I could honestly tell the devs why, as could many here, the only question is will they listen.

 

[Syracuse022]

I think the quitting problem requires a couple different solutions all targeted at making the game fun first at foremost. Even just dealing with the people who quit negatively won't be a big enough deterrent. If they lose credits or get banned, they'll just stop playing that day or all together, and that will take a bite out of the gaming population. I think that's why you won't see too many lasting or more extreme penalties for quitting.

I believe these things need to happen in order to keep quitting down in 4:

Most playlists, especially the more competitive ones should be sans guests.

Much of the quitting I see is when a solo player is matched with 2 or more guests. Especially if this guy or girl sees a full opposing team. Which brings me to my next point.


Halo needs a solo players only list.

If you're goin' at it solo (i feel for you before I got people who stay up late and a bunch of gaffers my time schedule was all kinds of fucked up so I played alone) but still want to play team related stuff, there should be a matchmaking that you can enter so that you are playing other "pick up groups" (lol mmo reference) instead of full teams.

Now this would negatively impact the search times for "premades" but if there were credit bonuses for grouping together, that would encourage people to do so, even knowing they'd be up against better teams. And again this brings me to my next point.


Trueskill needs an overhaul.

For whatever reason the ranking and trueskill system in Reach is for lack of a better word, crap. I don't understand why an arena like (it doesn't have to be made public) rank system isn't playlist wide. But when people are constantly getting matched against their betters, they will quit. The game isn't fun when you're being wrecked and people aren't going to stick it out, period. It's not their responsibility either.

Somewhere along the lines people forgot this is a game, and if people aren't having fun there is no real obligation for them to stay in game. Which is why one has to look deep into what is the catalyst that makes for a lot of quitters, straight up penalization just isn't going to cut it.

THIS THIS THIS, especially #2.

 

[TheOddOne]

THIS THIS THIS, especially #2.

Yeah, Devolution hit some nails on the head.

 

[Ken]

If someone doesn't want to stay in a shitty unenjoyable game, you can't penalize them for quitting. You just can't.

There needs to be a mercy rule after a certain number people quit after a certain score.

With something like Elzar's DNF meter, maybe it could go something like:

First quitter on a team of 4: 25 points of DNF meter gain
Second quitter: 15 points
Third: 10 points
Fourth: 5 points

Reach 75 points and you get a 24 hour quit ban. Reach 100 points and you get a 72 hour quit ban. Finishing three games brings down your DNF meter by 10 points. That way quitters who quit because their team quit can quickly get back to a good standing, while it takes much longer for habitual quitters to return to good standing.

You could also match players with consistently high DNF meters together.

Probably a ton of flaws since I just typed this up on a bus ride but it seems decent.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

http://wikicheats.gametrailers.com/images/8/8b/Reach_MP_theCage04.jpg[img]

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[img]http://www.airbornegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Halo-Reach-Screenshot-Jet-Pack.jpg

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http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp197/rockhoward08/fuuuuu.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
Uncaged doesn't have the best spawns, but jetpacks absolutely ruin what could be at least playable.
[QUOTE=TheOddOne]Yeah, Devolution hit some nails on the head.[/QUOTE]
I've been hoping for this as well. Randoms only playlist ftw! :)

EDIT: The map selection in the TU playlist leaves something to be desired. I know not everyone enjoys swordbase, but I think it would be a fun map. Also, throw Kingdom and Select into the mix ;)

 

[The Real Napsta]

If someone doesn't want to stay in a shitty unenjoyable game, you can't penalize them for quitting. You just can't.

There needs to be a mercy rule after a certain number people quit after a certain score.

Yeah I think if 50% of your team quits you should be able to quit without penalty.

EDIT: The map selection in the TU playlist leaves something to be desired. I know not everyone enjoys swordbase, but I think it would be a fun map. Also, throw Kingdom and Select into the mix

Swordbase is garbage, keep it out of TU beta. Get rid of uncaged too.

 

[Kuroyume]

I don't blame quitters. Halo is one of those series filled with bad gametypes and maps. Then you also have stuff like guests which can drive you up the wall. If I had to pick between playing my fifth game in a row of Elite slayer on Hemmorrhage BTB or quitting I would chose to quit. The quality of multiplayer is really bad now.

 

[Devolution]

Yeah I think if 50% your team quits you should be able to quit without penalty.

I don't understand why this goes unimplemented. It's not really fun for the opposing team either, to play hide and seek with the remainders of the other team.

 

[Plywood]

Also Racing Playlist.

 

[Tashi]

Number 2 can be done in one playlist. Halo 3 did a pretty good job with that.

 

[Photolysis]

Sensible suggestions go here

Agreed, and some of them are a perfect demonstration of how Reach has taken a step backwards.

Personally, I hate playing with or against guests. If you want to invite some friends over to play Halo split screen that's cool, I just don't get matched up with your party because it unbalances the game in most cases. Block them from certain playlists, match them up together, I don't care as long as I don't play them.

Previous games used to match you up with other parties (3+1 would play with other teams of 3+1, same with parties of 4 etc.) Why this was removed for Reach, I have no idea.

I always preferred ranked matches in earlier titles. For all Bungie's insistence that Trueskill (and ELO/Levels in H2) operated in 'unranked' playlists it's obvious that the skill matching is broad at best, non-existent at worst. Once upon a time when I was playing at around the level 50 mark in H3 Team Slayer, despite the wait times for matches it gave a consistent and challenging experience. In Reach it's all over the place. One game I'll be with a team that crushes the competition, the next it'll be reversed.

As I said a few days ago, I think Halo would be far better if it moved back from Trueskill to ELO a la H2. It's much simpler so it can be tweaked much more easily without requiring a degree in mathematics to avoid breaking it, and ELO didn't have half the bugs and general weirdness I experienced with H3's Trueskill.

 

[Striker]

Uncaged doesn't have the best spawns, but jetpacks absolutely ruin what could be at least playable.

Without a jetpack on that map, more often you'll get spawn trapped easier than any other maps in the Halo series existence, aside from Narrows, at least.

The sniper alley is the one single hilarity in there, and if you're stuck with sprint, you are limited in movement. The map is designed, at least in my view, for something like a jetpack in mind because of its walkways.

I am more annoyed there isn't more Assault and 2-flag in the TU playlist, but there's lots of 3 Flag and Flag Slayer.

Number 2 can be done in one playlist. Halo 3 did a pretty good job with that.

What playlist?

She meant a playlist for solo players that go in and play team games. Not FFA.

 

[The Real Napsta]

You can't even redeem the codes anymore, they all expired.

LMAO, who actually believes those dates?

 

[Hey You]

Geez guys, it's not even like we need map pack DLC anymore.. Haven't you heard of this little thing called "Forge World?" Free DLC 4 LYFE.



GAHL!

*glares at homeboyd*

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Swordbase is garbage, keep it out of TU beta. Get rid of uncaged too.

I love swordbase. Not sure why it gets all the hate. If people want to camp a lift, go a different direction and nade the crap out of them, or use the grenade launcher. I enjoy the multiple levels, as well as the various corridors and range of combat -- it's well varied.

How much do I like sword base? This much: Swordbase > zealot, powerhouse, boardwalk, reflections, and multiple forge maps. Countdown is the only equal, imo.

 

[Account Attempt #4]

Just catching up on the last page or two but wanted to post that I got a 15k jackpot in the beta playlist last night. I think the trick is that you have to come in dead last after a complete donging and not quit :-/

Sorry if someone else posted this already.

Spoiler

it's the only reason people play this game

 

[Hey You]

I love swordbase. Not sure why it gets all the hate. If people want to camp a lift, go a different direction and nade the crap out of them, or use the grenade launcher. I enjoy the multiple levels, as well as the various corridors and range of combat -- it's well varied.

How much do I like sword base? This much: Swordbase > zealot, powerhouse, boardwalk, reflections, and multiple forge maps. Countdown is the only equal, imo.

^

Just catching up on the last page or two but wanted to post that I got a 15k jackpot in the beta playlist last night. I think the trick is that you have to come in dead last after a complete donging and not quit :-/

Sorry if someone else posted this already.

Spoiler

it's the only reason people play this game

Maybe super jackpot weekends are back? or your lucky and got the super rare,random playlist jackpot.

 

[The Real Napsta]

I love swordbase. Not sure why it gets all the hate. If people want to camp a lift, go a different direction and nade the crap out of them, or use the grenade launcher. I enjoy the multiple levels, as well as the various corridors and range of combat -- it's well varied.

How much do I like sword base? This much: Swordbase > zealot, powerhouse, boardwalk, reflections, and multiple forge maps. Countdown is the only equal, imo.

Default Countdown is garbage too because of the shotgun/sword.

I know how to counter campers on Swordbase, that doesn't stop the map from being terrible.

 

[Devolution]

Agreed, and some of them are a perfect demonstration of how Reach has taken a step backwards.

Personally, I hate playing with or against guests. If you want to invite some friends over to play Halo split screen that's cool, I just don't get matched up with your party because it unbalances the game in most cases. Block them from certain playlists, match them up together, I don't care as long as I don't play them.

Previous games used to match you up with other parties (3+1 would play with other teams of 3+1, same with parties of 4 etc.) Why this was removed for Reach, I have no idea.

I always preferred ranked matches in earlier titles. For all Bungie's insistence that Trueskill (and ELO/Levels in H2) operated in 'unranked' playlists it's obvious that the skill matching is broad at best, non-existent at worst. Once upon a time when I was playing at around the level 50 mark in H3 Team Slayer, despite the wait times for matches it gave a consistent and challenging experience. In Reach it's all over the place. One game I'll be with a team that crushes the competition, the next it'll be reversed.

As I said a few days ago, I think Halo would be far better if it moved back from Trueskill to ELO a la H2. It's much simpler so it can be tweaked much more easily without requiring a degree in mathematics to avoid breaking it, and ELO didn't have half the bugs and general weirdness I experienced with H3's Trueskill.

I think the mistake was decreasing time to get a match. I'd rather it take a little longer to get me a competitive game in which quitting is rare, then match me right away with some kids my team mates and I will just wreck.

Also there really needs to be some playlist consolidation bad. H4 should not have nearly as many playlists as Reach does now. It breaks up the population into too many groups. Add more options into voting but pay particular attention to what's being voted for, and keep it updated to reflect that.

Unfortunately without servers, MM is mostly left up to how much the devs give a shit.