MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Why is Archimonde on the art for the Fist of Jaraxxus card?
And isn't the Fist of Jaraxxus the weapon you get when you turn into him?
And isn't the Fist of Jaraxxus the weapon you get when you turn into him?
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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Aquavelvaman
Banned
People are voting warlock again? When will they learn!
BananasWithGuns
Member
So is there a specific reason as to why 80% of the ladder is Mages right now?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The reveal on that joust 1/2 guy is stronger than people probably think. If I know I am playing a handlock from turn 1, or just a zoolock with a slow start, or even a demonlock, that is very valuable information. It isn't all about knowing what cards are in their deck. It has 3 distinct uses imo.
1. you know the card isn't in their hand
2. you better identify what archetype or what list they are playing
3. tech cards are very often minions (BGH, harrison)
As the game goes on, more viable archetypes will appear. These mechanics will likely increase in strength.
8 matches today, 0 mages
1. you know the card isn't in their hand
2. you better identify what archetype or what list they are playing
3. tech cards are very often minions (BGH, harrison)
As the game goes on, more viable archetypes will appear. These mechanics will likely increase in strength.
8 matches today, 0 mages
toddhunter
Member
The problem is you are just as likely to reveal what your deck is to your opponent and they get to act on that information first.
If it is valuable information, which I doubt, you are handing that advantage to your opponent. If it is useless information, like your Hunter opponent has a haunted creeper, than just play a zombie chow.
Not a fan of gadjetsan jouster at all. Even against aggro decks you're going to be playing a 1 mana 1/2 50% of the time and against control decks you just threw away a card. And knowing whether you're playing against something like zoo vs handlock is critical at the mulligan step and much less relevant once you are locked into your starting hand.
I also don't think the druid ramp 2 drop is that crazy. It's decent, but in a lot of games you are playing river crocolisk. If I'm playing warrior with fiery win axe and a druid plays that guy instead of wild growth I'm going to feel like I'm instantly favored.
And what do you do when your starting hand has both wild growth and 2 drop guy? Do you hold a starting hand wild growth? Probably not. So you wild growth and now you are at 4 mana with a river croc in hand.
I also don't think the druid ramp 2 drop is that crazy. It's decent, but in a lot of games you are playing river crocolisk. If I'm playing warrior with fiery win axe and a druid plays that guy instead of wild growth I'm going to feel like I'm instantly favored.
And what do you do when your starting hand has both wild growth and 2 drop guy? Do you hold a starting hand wild growth? Probably not. So you wild growth and now you are at 4 mana with a river croc in hand.
Wafflecakes
Member
I think I am at almost 2k gold.
Would have been higher, but I went on vacation for a week and missed a bunch of dailies.
Whole thing is kind of annoying since I mostly arena. I find constructed painful.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Dunno why I'm being bombarded with them then. There's just countless Mages right now.
Mech Mages, tempo Mages, freeze Mages, weird ass mech/dragon hybrid Mages. Tempo Mages running Deathlord for some reason. Mech Mages running Duplicate.
I'm just lost at this point. I'm on my 5th Mage in a row right now.
FormallyFamicom
Member
3300 gold, aiming for 4000. Gonna pick up 30 packs. Got 25 packs on day 1 of GvG, felt like I got most everything I needed in that, so 30 should be good here.
4Kish gold, no dust. 12 packs from Brawls and Arenas I haven't opened yet so that's at least some dust. I've been sitting on a decent Priest arena draft with Ysera for a few weeks now. Just can't find the time to give it the attention it deserves.
In something like Ramp Druid you are going to be winning the Joust more than 50% for sure. Something like 70-80% of the time. And you "threw away a card" by running zombie chow against control decks as well. The difference with Gadgetzan Jouster is that it's actually better than zombie chow against control decks. A 1/2 doesn't get poked to death by hero powers so it's easier to use it as a ping. And you almost never have a situation where playing the card is actively worse than keeping it in your hand compared to zombie chow.
I think the choice will vary from deck to deck. Priest will always play Chow. Mid-range Paladin will probably continue to run chow. Handlock could go either way I think but possibly favors Gadgetzan Jouster. Druid is probably the safest for Gadgetzan Jouster. In Ramp your lowest cost minion aside from that early drop is usually a tech choice like BGH, maybe MCT, and then the Tazdingos. But you've got both sets of Ancients, Aviana, Sylvanas, Cenarius, Kel'thuzad, all on that top end that makes it very easy to win.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The presence of a haunted creeper often means it is midrange/beast as opposed to face hunter. As a rogue, that means I am going to try to save sap for highmane or houndmaster. I don't know why you presume it will be useless information. If you're in tune with what people are running, that can be a huge deal.
And zombie chow is not necessarily better in every deck.
2500 gold, 970 dust. Haven't preordered yet, hoping for another Amazon coin discount thing
Preordered and also have 4500 dust and currently 800 gold ready for release day.
Definitely going to try token Paladin with Muster, Quartermaster, Regent, the 2/4 guy and hero power/Inspire synergy. I imagine it would be quite humbling to be overwhelmed by 1/1 dudes.
At least we are discussing cards and having a debate over whether a card is good or bad.
A few days ago we were getting crap like Demonfuse that pretty much everyone thought was crap.
Also I am surprised by the Reynad card reviews. I legitimately thought he would just go ham and call most of the cards trash but he provided some good points on some of the widely regarded trash cards. I think he may have caused me to rethink my opinion of the Watchman.
A few days ago we were getting crap like Demonfuse that pretty much everyone thought was crap.
Also I am surprised by the Reynad card reviews. I legitimately thought he would just go ham and call most of the cards trash but he provided some good points on some of the widely regarded trash cards. I think he may have caused me to rethink my opinion of the Watchman.
The fact that you lose ties is what puts jousting in murky waters for me in terms of reliability. It's just another factor that puts the odds against you.
Professor Lich
Member
Pretty sure all Inspire effects are after the fact, otherwise cards like Thunder Bluff Valiant wouldn't be that good if the new summoned totem didn't get +2.
toddhunter
Member
You are ignoring the big problem. Whatever advantage you think you are getting, your opponent is getting the same.
So you can argue all you want about how awesome the info is, your opponent just got the same amazing info and gets to play with it first.
That is just plain bad.
I actually think most of the "worthless late game" aspect of Zombie Chow comes from it being a 2/3 that doesn't do anything rather than it healing the opponent for 5. Being able to safely play a 2/3, or 1/2, in the late game really isn't all that significant over playing nothing. They're really just in there to play on turn 1 the 30-40% of the time that you get it at the start.
If you had a zombie chow that actually came with some useful effect in the late game, that would be a game changer, but I really don't see these new cards doing it.
If you had a zombie chow that actually came with some useful effect in the late game, that would be a game changer, but I really don't see these new cards doing it.
Jousting by design is meant to counter aggro and be used in control decks.
When you activate a Joust, no matter what card comes out of your deck for the reveal it doesn't matter for the opponent ESPECIALLY if they are playing aggro (unless you are running extreme tech cards like MCT in which case you will be sad if that card gets revealed). It's not like they are trying to guess "oh man this guy played a Joust... I better play around x fast creature". Besides aggro deck these days don't play around late cards anyway so them learning that you have a Ragnaros doesn't matter to them because they are trying to finish the game before that card even comes into play.
Think of it like when Zombie Chow comes into play from a Warlock, they already announced that they are playing a Control/Slow/Anti Aggro deck. Jousting is like that only you get to see a card in your opponent's deck as well.
And this is precisely why that Gadgetan Jouster is slightly better than the rest because it is played as a Zombie Chow which also allows you to scout the opponent. For the later Jousting cards it doesn't really matter much except that they have a higher chance of winning Jousts because you have more than likely played more of your smaller minions already (or have them in hand) so you can make a better educated play (like Holy Wrath in Paladin).
Take the following scenario of my Warlock (playing Handlock) vs another Warlock (they can be playing Zoolock/Handlock):
I play Gadgetan instead of Chow going first in the game. If I had played Chow there I would've already announced that I was playing Handlock so him knowing some card in my deck isn't that relevant anymore. So me playing Gadgetan isn't really that much of a draw back.
However, the card that Gadgetan shows from their deck is relevant because it will let me correctly guess what they are playing and plan out my next moves that way. There's a lot of minion variation in Zoolock vs Handlock.
If I am against Zoolock, I am likely to win the Joust and get a 2/3 which will help me control the board. If it's vs Handlock and say I lose the Joust... I have a 1/2 which is still superior to 2/3 Zombie Chow because the Warlock is just going to tap and then Dark Bomb when he is down 4-6 health so that he has more health to work with in the course of the game because of that heal.
toddhunter
Member
That example falls flat though.
Turn 1 you play chow.
Turn 2 your opponent taps.
Boom, you know their complete deck and don't have to risk a 1/2 in your deck. It is too late to change mulligans so unless you are doing some game swinging play on turn 2 like using sap on a clockwork gnome (?) you have plenty of time.
The only use I can see is seeing a coldlight oracle to avoid mill decks.
Turn 1 you play chow.
Turn 2 your opponent taps.
Boom, you know their complete deck and don't have to risk a 1/2 in your deck. It is too late to change mulligans so unless you are doing some game swinging play on turn 2 like using sap on a clockwork gnome (?) you have plenty of time.
The only use I can see is seeing a coldlight oracle to avoid mill decks.
That's not going to happen because if turn 1 you play Chow/Gadgetan, they are still on turn 1 as well. So they can't tap unless they coin.
Officerrob
Banned
1755 gold and 22,145 dust (already purchased 50 packs, and those will be the last of this set I buy)
I agree with slayn, the mulligan is where it'd matter to know the opponent's deck. After that there's only fringe cases like Handlock vs Zoo with a slow start where you'd equip a War Axe for tempo or something. But for any of these you'll get fucked in two other games by playing a worthless 1/2. A ping is not worth being down a card, especially in control vs control.
toddhunter
Member
Either way and assuming they don't have a 1 drop what difference is it ever going to make?
Depends on the class and deck.
If I am playing a Holy Wrath Paladin deck using this card... I play this and then see what the opponent is using. If I see that they are using Handlock then I will probably just Hero power. If it's up against a Zoolock then equipping that new 2/2 Argent Lance weapon on turn 2 is pretty strong because that would free up turn 3 for some other play. It's also likely to win the Joust against the Zoolock deck and I might even think of just pressuring with with the weapon so they have less taps to work with overall in the game (plus the Gadgetan which won't heal them back up if they kill it).
If I am playing Ramp Druid and I have Darnassus and Wild Growth in hand... depending on if they are using Handlock or Zoolock I would use one or the other depending on what the Joust shows up.
If I am playing a Control Warrior, I have the choice of equipping the Axe or using hero power or playing Armorsmith in advanced based on the information.
Like I am not even thinking that hard to come up with these situations. I am sure other situations can come up. Without playing around with the card it's difficult to evaluate how it will play out and how effective these cards will be in a well refined deck that is built to its strength but it's better than just writing the card off completely without trying it out. I am not even saying these cards are that good... just that they might provide some alternate options for other cards (Chow, Healbot, Sunwalker etc) in a deck built for Jousting.
toddhunter
Member
I'm going to stop you right there.
But seriously you are going to react to what they do on their first turn dictated by what cards you have in your hand. It doesn't really matter what they are playing, you have two mana, some cards and will have a best play to an empty board or their flame imp.
But like before, if we agree that this information is incredibly useful, your opponent just used this brilliant intel to coin out their counter to your deck.
Which is why nobody will run it. Let your opponent blow their mana to give you information. I'll take that opening every single time.
My argument is that information is more valuable to control decks vs aggro decks as control decks have to play reactionary vs aggro decks which just play out their hand and produce threats that need to dealt with. So the information is more valuable for the person who is jousting more often than not. Which you know... is the whole point of the mechanic... to give you an advantage in the control vs aggro match up.
Holy Wrath Paladin is already pretty decent, people don't use it but it doesn't mean it's not good (it actually punishes aggro really hard because of double Sea Giants and Moltens with taunt activators similar to Handlock). It's also a deck that is already custom build to utilize the Jousting mechanic. That's why I used it in my example.
You can't just restrict your thinking to existing top tier decks when evaluating decks. There are quite a few decks in Hearthstone that are just a few cards away from being amazing. The Enrage Warrior deck was basically like this before Grim Patron showed up.
I will say that the Jousting mechanic is actually legitimately awful if the meta is mostly slow. That's because in control vs control match ups you are more likely to LOSE the Joust because of the fact that on equal jousting you lose. You need some really insane Giants deck to consistently win Jousting in a slow meta. This mechanic only works if something like Face Hunter is like top tier.
Holy Wrath Paladin is already pretty decent, people don't use it but it doesn't mean it's not good (it actually punishes aggro really hard because of double Sea Giants and Moltens with taunt activators similar to Handlock). It's also a deck that is already custom build to utilize the Jousting mechanic. That's why I used it in my example.
You can't just restrict your thinking to existing top tier decks when evaluating decks. There are quite a few decks in Hearthstone that are just a few cards away from being amazing. The Enrage Warrior deck was basically like this before Grim Patron showed up.
I will say that the Jousting mechanic is actually legitimately awful if the meta is mostly slow. That's because in control vs control match ups you are more likely to LOSE the Joust because of the fact that on equal jousting you lose. You need some really insane Giants deck to consistently win Jousting in a slow meta. This mechanic only works if something like Face Hunter is like top tier.
toddhunter
Member
That is the thing though. If it is an aggro deck, they'll have a 1 drop or they'll coin something out. Meanwhile you have already done your mulligan.
So what value is there to a control deck? If you don't realise you are playing aggro after the double leper gnome opening the information probably isn't going to help you.
Meanwhile you may have a 1/2 sitting there which isn't awful, but not as good as a 2/3 every single time.
Anyway, enough about arguing about cards nobody will play. What cards do we need to see? I think Rogue needs something special.
How about: Toll Collector: 2 mana 2/2. Battlecry, Give you a Gallywix coin.
Rogue seems way too dependent on getting the coin and while this is really strong, it still isn't a mad scientist. It would make the rogue cards revealed so far a lot better.
At 1200 gold and 2010 dust, no preorder on any packs though.
If you are playing against aggro you are way more likely to get a 2/3 with no draw back than a 1/2.... that's the point.
And like I have said twice already, this is most valuable when you are going first and drop it down. When you drop it down and their best play is a coin Juggler... they are way less likely to coin it out and could even pass the turn so that their 3/2 doesn't die. If you had played a Chow and they passed a turn...you would've thought they were playing Handlock and proceeded to play on that assumption.
0 mana Spell for Rogue
The next minion you play this turn costs (3) less.
Yeah boys! TURN 1 +coin BOULDERFIST PANDA!
I think Rogue needs good heals more than anything really.
Hunter needs a solid AOE option that isn't UTH and they need some decent card draws.
I mean, jousting might very likely be garbage when TGT releases, and that's okay. It's not the expansion's main mechanic, they're not devoting too many cards to it, but it gives players options. In future expansions they can always add a few joust cards here and there, the important thing is that they're finally focusing on establishing multiple new and interesting mechanics. Enough with the fucking deathrattles.
The major implication with Jousting is that Blizzard is clearly thinking "ok aggro has gotten so out of hand that we need a DEDICATED MECHANIC to counter it". So that's what I like about it.
I think my main problem with Jousting is that it's just a bit too RNG based (and the fact that you lose on draws). For control decks you want maximum consistency. Like I am not even sure I would play the 5/5 7 heal card in a super slow Paladin deck over Healbot simply because I would be too scared to not get the Joust proc off because that Face Hunter just happens to also run Dr Balanced as well.
I think my main problem with Jousting is that it's just a bit too RNG based (and the fact that you lose on draws). For control decks you want maximum consistency. Like I am not even sure I would play the 5/5 7 heal card in a super slow Paladin deck over Healbot simply because I would be too scared to not get the Joust proc off because that Face Hunter just happens to also run Dr Balanced as well.
The thing about Joust is that the meta can shift accordingly around it where aggro decks are still heavily represented but not above 50% of the games which means playing a anti-aggro joust deck actually gives you less than 50% win rate because you lose to midrange and control. It's the same reason why anti-aggro Deathlord Priest isn't a top-tier meta deck, if the meta was truly >50% aggro then those sorts of decks would be rank 1 legend. And variance also means that such kinds of decks still fail vs aggro because you don't draw the right cards at the right mana crystals and the aggro decks have their Owls right on time. The Joust cards also aren't extremely good even when you win the Joust so they may not be impactful enough if you play them off curve even if you get the Joust benefits, except for maybe Master Jouster.
WesternHeretic
Member
Having a real tough time beating shaman with aggro paladin.
Kripp thinks if it was neutral, it would be the best card in the game or close to it. I don't want that in Rogue or Handlock tbh.
Two straight packs I got Doctor Boom and Golden Doctor Boom.
I disenchanted the regular Boom and now I wish I ditched the golden. The extra dust is more valuable than the shiny toy.
It wouldn't be run in most Rogue decks. They don't run many high cost minions and when you're hitting minions with your weapon, you'll likely need the extra health so the high possibility of it not activating isn't acceptable.
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