Help explain Brexit to this dumb yank

PKM

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Oct 11, 2017
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Pretty much what the titles says..

As an American my head is up my butt when it comes to world politics.

My understanding is..
The right leaning UK side pushed to leave the EU while the left wants to stay.
This centers around immigration? Basically Brexit is basically leave (and close the flood gates) or stay (open the flood gates)?
But its stuck in a limbo in the courts?

Please help me, and maybe others, understand it...what it means, how it started, what's going on etc..
 

Nobody_Important

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May 22, 2018
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Could use a bit of clarity myself on this. The information seems to change depending on which side you are talking to.
 

PKM

Gold Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Could use a bit of clarity myself on this. The information seems to change depending on which side you are talking to.
Exactly. I mean, I could go read the wiki entry but I feel I could learn more by actual EU/UK citizens helping me to understand what's going on exactly.

To be honest, I would love a thread from each prominent EU country helping us Americans who are trapped in our own political/social bubble to help understand what's going on and what's the mood.
A French one, German, UK, Russian, Spain etc..
Just a citizen prospective rather then an article which usually has it's own bias in reporting.
 

.rain

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Nov 6, 2016
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Lazy people of Britain wanted to leave EU because they blame East Europeans for stealing their jobs. Actually, no one steals any job because people living in Britain love spending their time with free money from the government. They had to blame someone and they can't blame middle easterners because of rasism. East European are easy target for everyone nowadays.

May made some agreement with that moron Tusk and Juncker but the British parliament won't accept the deal. They think they have much better position to negotiate. Now, May goes back to Brussels to renegotiate the terms or no agreement at all.

My personal opinion as European. We need the EU but the parliament stuff is a garbage with some good money for politicians from every corner of Europe. It's pretty much useless. We need the old European Coal and Steel Community. The founders of the EU (early 50's) had different opinion about Europe. Now it's a place for easy welfare for lazy Muslims.
 
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DKehoe

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I'm going to generalise here so there's probably parts that won't be entirely accurate. So if anyone wants to correct me please feel free to. I'm also going to try and be as objective as possible.

The further right elements of the Conservative party (the main right wing party in the UK) have been wanting the UK to leave the EU for a while now. This idea gained more popularity and saw the surge of a party to the right of the Conservatives called UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party) who built their manifesto around the idea of leaving the EU. In order to try and bring his party together, David Cameron (Prime Minister at the time and a more centrist member of the party who was pro-EU) agreed to stage a referendum on the U.K.s membership in the EU. That was the Brexit vote. He, and most people, didn't expect it to actually go through. It was just meant to be a way to shut up the members of his party who had been causing issues for him. Despite saying he would remain as PM no matter what he then resigned and Theresa May (who in the lead up to the vote had been pro-remain) became PM.

Immigration is a core aspect of Brexit and does seem to have been the main motivation for people wanting to leave. Currently people within the EU can move freely from one country to another. So someone from France can come and work here in the UK much more easily than yourself (I'm assuming you are American?) and vice versa people from the UK can travel to and work in other countries within the EU.

Leaving the EU means the UK has to negotiate with the EU to decide on various factors, things like what's the process going to be for goods crossing over the border? (there's talk of needing to turn huge parts of land near the major ports into massive car parks because the transit vehicles which could previously pass through easily may now have to be subject to a variety of processes). Perhaps the most complicated issue is the border between Northern Ireland (part of the U.K and NI for short) and the Republic of Ireland (a country in the E.U that I'm going to now call ROI). Northern Ireland is a VERY complex situation and this is the part that I will probably make some mistakes with (apologies to any Northern Irish posters here). As you may be aware there were some serious tensions in Northern Ireland between people who wanted to remain as part of the U.K. and those who wanted Northern Ireland to become united with the ROI. This resulted in terrorist attacks, pro-republican NI people being killed by the British army, all sorts of awful stuff. These tensions were mostly resolved in The Good Friday Agreement, signed in 1998. Part of the agreement involved security checks being removed from the NI/ROI border and allowing people to move more freely between them. The people on the pro-ROI side wanted to be close to ROI and not be restricted in their access to it. A "hard Brexit" (severing all connections with the EU) would mean contradicting this and enforcing a hard border. This is partly why the negotiations include this border being treated as a special case and remaining more open. However, this presents a headache for Teresa May and her government. After the Brexit vote the Labour party was perceived by many to be in a weak position, May looked to take advantage of this by calling an early election and increasing her majority in Parliment, making it easier for her to pass through legislation. However what instead happened was that the Conservatives actually lost seats and went below an overall majority. This forced them to create an informal coalition government with Northern Ireland's DUP party. Northern Irish politics is distinct from the rest of the UK (which typically comes down to aLabour/Conservative divide) in that it's two main parties are defined by their stance on Northern Ireland's relationship with ROI and the UK. The DUP want NI to remain and be close with the rest of the UK, Sinn Fein want NI to become part of the ROI. May came to an agreement with the DUP for their support for their legislation in exchange for May supporting the DUP's interests (most notably giving NI an extra billion pounds for it's budget). The DUP see May giving NI a different status, one that brings it closer to ROI, than the rest of the UK as a betrayal. Giving NI special status will also piss off Scotland, who strongly voted to remain in the EU. Scotland recently had a relatively close (55%/45%) vote to determine whether or not it should remain in the UK. Scotland being taken out of the EU also carries an extra sting because one of the arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK was that it would have trouble joining the EU if it were to go independent. So the people who voted for Scotland to leave the UK will feel this further proves that it is better off out of the UK and many people who voted to remain in both the UK and EU will feel that they were misled. This could lead to calls for another Scottish independence referendum.

The negotiations have been a mess (I feel it's fair to say this objectively, no one in the UK is really happy with how they have gone). The pro-Brexiters are demanding that May renegotiate the deal to get more favourable terms, the EU officials seem to be firm that this is the only deal available. There are now also calls for a second referendum to be held to determine whether the UK should accept this deal or cancel Brexit.

I hope that answers your questions? As you can perhaps see it's a pretty complicated topic!
 
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Aintitcool

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Sep 3, 2017
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Instead of boats and trucks from europe, Great Britain as its called in German. Will have to use airplanes from USA,CANADA and Australia for their foods and all trade. Basically yall gonna have to be as rich as queen Elizabeth and say hello to American capitalism. Scotland voted no.
 
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mekes

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Jun 30, 2013
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It’s worth noting that leaving the EU completely affects travel, laws, trade, taxes, tariffs. With the UK being in the EU, all aspects of these systems are completely intertwined. Leaving, the UK need to agree to new systems for so much involving the day to day running of the country.

Example being, if New York was to break away from the US. Would there be a border? What rules would we trade under? And everything there or thereabouts. You’re under US law but you are breaking away from the US, so now what? The UK need to agree with the EU on rulesets for pretty much everything. It’s a mammoth task given the time allowed to complete it, even if you just look at it from a private businesses perspective.
 

luigimario

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Apr 3, 2018
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Lazy people of Britain wanted to leave EU because they blame East Europeans for stealing their jobs. Actually, no one steals any job because people living in Britain love spending their time with free money from the government. They had to blame someone and they can't blame Pakis because of rasism. East European are easy target for everyone nowadays.

May made some agreement with that moron Tusk and Juncker but the British parliament won't accept the deal. They think they have much better position to negotiate. Now, May goes back to Brussels to renegotiate the terms or no agreement at all.

My personal opinion as European. We need the EU but the parliament stuff is a garbage with some good money for politicians from every corner of Europe. It's pretty much useless. We need the old European Coal and Steel Community. The founders of the EU (early 50's) had different opinion about Europe. Now it's a place for easy welfare for lazy Muslims.
Wow, a hard P. Someones not hiding their racism ;).

"We need the EU but its useless".... hmmmm make up your mind mate.....

What kind of European are you if you don't mind me asking.

I'm going to generalise here so there's probably parts that won't be entirely accurate. So if anyone wants to correct me please feel free to. I'm also going to try and be as objective as possible.

The further right elements of the Conservative party (the main right wing party in the UK) have been wanting the UK to leave the EU for a while now. This idea gained more popularity and saw the surge of a party to the right of the Conservatives called UKIP (United Kingdom Independence Party) who built their manifesto around the idea of leaving the UK. In order to try and bring his party together, David Cameron (Prime Minister at the time and a more centrist member of the party who was pro-EU) agreed to stage a referendum on the U.K.s membership in the EU. That was the Brexit vote. He, and most people, didn't expect it to actually go through. It was just meant to be a way to shut up the members of his party who had been causing issues for him. Despite saying he would remain as PM no matter what he then resigned and Theresa May (who in the lead up to the vote had been pro-remain) became PM.

Immigration is a core aspect of Brexit and does seem to have been the main motivation for people wanting to leave. Currently people within the EU can move freely from one country to another. So someone from France can come and work here in the UK much more easily than yourself (I'm assuming you are American?) and vice versa people from the UK can travel to and work in other countries within the EU.

Leaving the EU means the UK has to negotiate with the EU to decide on various factors, things like what's the process going to be for goods crossing over the border? (there's talk of needing to turn huge parts of land near the major ports into massive car parks because the transit vehicles which could previously pass through easily may now have to be subject to a variety of processes). Perhaps the most complicated issue is the border between Northern Ireland (part of the U.K and NI for short) and the Republic of Ireland (a country in the E.U that I'm going to now call ROI). Northern Ireland is a VERY complex situation and this is the part that I will probably make some mistakes with (apologies to any Northern Irish posters here). As you may be aware there were some serious tensions in Northern Ireland between people who wanted to remain as part of the U.K. and those who wanted Northern Ireland to become united with the ROI. This resulted in terrorist attacks, pro-republican NI people being killed by the British army, all sorts of awful stuff. These tensions were mostly resolved in The Good Friday Agreement, signed in 1998. Part of the agreement involved security checks being removed from the NI/ROI border and allowing people to move more freely between them. The people on the pro-ROI side wanted to be close to ROI and not be restricted in their access to it. A "hard Brexit" (severing all connections with the EU) would mean contradicting this and enforcing a hard border. This is partly why the negotiations include this border being treated as a special case and remaining more open. However, this presents a headache for Teresa May and her government. After the Brexit vote the Labour party was perceived by many to be in a weak position, May looked to take advantage of this by calling an early election and increasing her majority in Parliment, making it easier for her to pass through legislation. However what instead happened was that the Conservatives actually lost seats and went below an overall majority. This forced them to create an informal coalition government with Northern Ireland's DUP party. Northern Irish politics is distinct from the rest of the UK (which typically comes down to aLabour/Conservative divide) in that it's two main parties are defined by their stance on Northern Ireland's relationship with ROI and the UK. The DUP want NI to remain and be close with the rest of the UK, Sinn Fein want NI to become part of the ROI. May came to an agreement with the DUP for their support for their legislation in exchange for May supporting the DUP's interests (most notably giving NI an extra billion pounds for it's budget). The DUP see May giving NI a different status, one that brings it closer to ROI, than the rest of the UK as a betrayal. Giving NI special status will also piss off Scotland, who strongly voted to remain in the EU. Scotland recently had a relatively close (55%/45%) vote to determine whether or not it should remain in the UK. Scotland being taken out of the EU also carries an extra sting because one of the arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK was that it would have trouble joining the EU if it were to go independent. So the people who voted for Scotland to leave the UK will feel this further proves that it is better off out of the UK and many people who voted to remain in both the UK and EU will feel that they were misled. This could lead to calls for another Scottish independence referendum.

The negotiations have been a mess (I feel it's fair to say this objectively, no one in the UK is really happy with how they have gone). The pro-Brexiters are demanding that May renegotiate the deal to get more favourable terms, the EU officials seem to be firm that this is the only deal available. There are now also calls for a second referendum to be held to determine whether the UK should accept this deal or cancel Brexit.

I hope that answers your questions? As you can perhaps see it's a pretty complicated topic!
Hahaha i think you got the Irish border question down to a tee!

Basically, from leftie point of view, financial crash happened, the right told everyone to blame immigrants, half the country fell for it and so they voted for collective economic suicide.
 

phisheep

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@DKehoe covered the ground nicely.

I'll just add that it is not so purely a left v right thing as it might seem. Although politically the whole thing was driven by the extreme right in UKIP/Conservatives, the electoral split is much broader than that, and encompasses very many of Labour's traditional working-class and underclass voters.

In my area for example, the campaign to Remain was mostly led by the Tories and Libdems, and the Leave campaign by Labour -who are normally a distant third in the constituency.

This gives us the unpleasant position we are now in, where both of the major parties are supporting Brexit, and there is no effective Parliamentary voice to remain in the EU, except for the SNP which is Scottish, and the LibDems who are (in Parliament) tiny.

It is most uncomfortable for those of us who want to stay.
 

underberg

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The Brexit campaign was filled with disinformation. The pro-Brexit camp never explained HOW they intended to leave the EU; cowards as they were, they basically disappeared from politics (Farage, UKIP leader, even asked for German citizenship after the referendum). The pro-Brexit campaign only talked about the pros of leaving the EU (no immigrants, which is anyway false and no money to the EU, which is true but numbers were exaggerated).
 

phisheep

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The campaign to Remain in the EU wasn't great either, focussed predominantly on the risks of leaving rather than on the benefits of staying.
 

Jmarshall

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Mar 28, 2018
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The Brexit campaign was filled with disinformation. The pro-Brexit camp never explained HOW they intended to leave the EU; cowards as they were, they basically disappeared from politics (Farage, UKIP leader, even asked for German citizenship after the referendum). The pro-Brexit campaign only talked about the pros of leaving the EU (no immigrants, which is anyway false and no money to the EU, which is true but numbers were exaggerated).
Nigel Farage hasn't asked for German citizenship, he's not even entitled to it. This is the kind of lie put about post referendum in an attempt to discredit it.

For the sake of truth the leave Campaign did has a prospectus for leaving the EU, however it wasn't a political party or officially affiliated with any, so had no power to implement it.
 

.rain

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Wow, a hard P. Someones not hiding their racism ;).

"We need the EU but its useless".... hmmmm make up your mind mate.....

What kind of European are you if you don't mind me asking.



Hahaha i think you got the Irish border question down to a tee!

Basically, from leftie point of view, financial crash happened, the right told everyone to blame immigrants, half the country fell for it and so they voted for collective economic suicide.
Some parts of it are useless. The EU is a great idea to prevent wars in Europe. The only problem is that Germany took over most of the control and their economy is growing while France and Italy have huge problem since early 2000s.

Where do you find rasism in my opinion? I'm only criticizing lazy people who voted Leave. They don't even know what will happen next year but I'm sure it won't be a good year for them.
 

Hayfield

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Nov 3, 2013
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Nigel Farage hasn't asked for German citizenship, he's not even entitled to it. This is the kind of lie put about post referendum in an attempt to discredit it.

For the sake of truth the leave Campaign did has a prospectus for leaving the EU, however it wasn't a political party or officially affiliated with any, so had no power to implement it.
The bolded part is a huge characteristic of a referendum that many on the remain side consistently either confuse or purposely mischaracterise in an attempt to discredit the leave vote. David Cameron was the person who should have planned for both outcomes. Instead he showed complete distain towards the British public by never believing they would vote against his will and not planning a single thing for the outcome of a leave vote (although it does seem his secret plan was to do a runner if it didn't go his way).
 
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Nov 23, 2010
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The campaign to Remain in the EU wasn't great either, focussed predominantly on the risks of leaving rather than on the benefits of staying.
There's probably 3 reasons the Remain campaign talked up the risks rather than the benefits.
  1. People tend to be loss averse.
  2. The "it's too risky/disruptive" approach has kept other countries from leaving the EU.
  3. If things were going swell, then logically no one would want to leave. Talking up the benefits of staying is an ineffective way to delegitmize whatever the perceived problems are with the current system.
In any event, I think once policymakers started hacking up the welfare state, then that opened up the floodgates for people who don't like freedom of movement and the rest of it.
 
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phisheep

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Just out of interest I looked up my post on the old referendum thread to see what I had said at the time.

Right about political turmoil, bad negotiated deal, potential for second referendum; wrong on Scottish independence; unproved on immigration.
 

luigimario

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Nigel Farage hasn't asked for German citizenship, he's not even entitled to it. This is the kind of lie put about post referendum in an attempt to discredit it.

For the sake of truth the leave Campaign did has a prospectus for leaving the EU, however it wasn't a political party or officially affiliated with any, so had no power to implement it.
Can you point me towards this brexit plan of rainbows and puppies by the leave campaign?
 

TrainedRage

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From what I understand they have to take a big saw and cut Northern Ireland off of Ireland then float it over to England. And people have to get Visas to go to University and such. And are upset.
 

Alx

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Some parts of it are useless. The EU is a great idea to prevent wars in Europe. The only problem is that Germany took over most of the control and their economy is growing while France and Italy have huge problem since early 2000s.
I don't know about Italy, but France has only itself to blame for the current situation and being behind Germany. Germany was actually in a dire situation in the early 2000s ( http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/01/17/german.recession/ ), but they made the reforms they needed and got back on tracks. France tried to do similar reforms on several occasions, but had to cancel those because they were unpopular.
It has nothing to do with EU, what Germany does other countries can do too.
 

eot

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Regarding NI, the issue is that they can't close the border between NI and Ireland, because that'd jeopardise the peace, but an open border with Ireland means a forced open border with the EU, undermining the brexit.

I get the impression that being an island nation the UK has always felt slightly apart from the rest of the EU, they were the only large economy to not adopt the Euro, they have special EU rebates and tend to be quite contrarian on certain issues. It makes sense that they'd be the country that would try to leave, but it was never an idea thought through at all.
 

phisheep

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I get the impression that being an island nation the UK has always felt slightly apart from the rest of the EU
It's not just that. A lot of it goes back to De Gaulle's repeated vetos of the UK joining much earlier than it did.
 

.rain

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I don't know about Italy, but France has only itself to blame for the current situation and being behind Germany. Germany was actually in a dire situation in the early 2000s ( http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/01/17/german.recession/ ), but they made the reforms they needed and got back on tracks. France tried to do similar reforms on several occasions, but had to cancel those because they were unpopular.
It has nothing to do with EU, what Germany does other countries can do too.
Yeah, nothing to do with EU. And releasing euro didn't have any impact on the economy. Hahahahaha
 

Mahadev

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Mar 5, 2007
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Brexit happened for a number of reasons and unlike the bullshit media have been spreading it's not just about racism. A lot of people including leftists were sick a tired of Germany's hegemony and EU's role in enforcing neoliberal principles through undemocratic means. And speaking of racism, rightwingers like Merkel weren't pro-immigration because of their good heart, they need immigration because rich capitalists need cheap workers to keep down wages while keeping the population divided and distracted with idpol bullshit which of course is backfiring on them now big time. I honestly think that long term Brexit will be good for UK, EU is a bureaucratic anti-democratic nightmare that will implode sooner or later and that actively creates the far-right they supposedly despise with the neoliberal dogmas they enforce on countries.


The Brexit campaign was filled with disinformation. The pro-Brexit camp never explained HOW they intended to leave the EU; cowards as they were, they basically disappeared from politics (Farage, UKIP leader, even asked for German citizenship after the referendum). The pro-Brexit campaign only talked about the pros of leaving the EU (no immigrants, which is anyway false and no money to the EU, which is true but numbers were exaggerated).
You acting as if systemic anti-Brexit media weren't spreading disinformation and propaganda as well.
 
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Alx

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Yeah, nothing to do with EU. And releasing euro didn't have any impact on the economy. Hahahahaha
Euro released in 99 (and European currencies were already tied before that). German economy was at its worst in 2003. So no, it doesn't look like the Euro was some clever shenanigan meant to benefit Germany. They did play their cards rights while others didn't, but there's no reason to believe they had an unfair advantage.
 

luigimario

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You acting as if systemic anti-Brexit media weren't spreading disinformation and propaganda as well.
Which lies were those? And can you provide a source for those lies?

Brexiteers always say "Project Fear claimed we would be a third world country after straight after the vote! That didn't happen! Yes the GBP has slumped to it's lowest value, the economy is the slowest growing in all of G20 after being one of the fastest growing before the vote but we are not a third world country!".

And no lie will come close to the one told by the leave campaign: "£350 million for the NHS a week if we leave!", which was debunked the next day as a lie by Farage himself.

Farage has German children, he has plenty of options if the UK goes to shit. We don't.
 

Yoshi

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I don't know about Italy, but France has only itself to blame for the current situation and being behind Germany. Germany was actually in a dire situation in the early 2000s ( http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/01/17/german.recession/ ), but they made the reforms they needed and got back on tracks. France tried to do similar reforms on several occasions, but had to cancel those because they were unpopular.
It has nothing to do with EU, what Germany does other countries can do too.
To be fair though, these reforms were a disaster for many people who were ~50 years old at the time and reduced social security significantly. It also effectively killed the big center-left party SPD, because they were responsible for those decisions. The political system in Germany has been significantly destabilised by this, because a party left of SPD grew through this, but there was bad blood between the SPD and the Left, so a left leaning government was impossible for 16 years out of personal animosities. Consequently, when there was a left majority, we had a great coalition led by the Conservatives, when there was a right majority, a right coalition led by the Conservatives. Through this ordeal, the Conservatives also gave a a few right-leaning strongholds (strict no to gay marriage, no to a stop on nuclear energy, a stricter stance on immigration) which opened up an opportunity for a party of right extremists, AfD to rise.

What I want to say with this: These reforms were an overall success, economically, but it came at a cost for the middle- and lower earning parts of society and for democracy as a whole in Germany. If other states really want to go a similar route, they need to make sure they consider what has happened in Germany and try to prevent a similar negative outcome.
 

GrizzleBoy

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Jul 25, 2013
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We've had a conservative government who have been demonizing and disenfranchising the most vulnerable/most important people in our society for about a decade.

Everyone from police, nurses, doctors, single mothers, fire fighters, poor people in general. Even fucking disabled people.

The conservative government attacked them all politically, via media and via policy.

But for some reason, the people who voted to leave were convinced by a 30 year campaign of EU bashing that it's actually the European migrants (who factually put more tax money into our economy than they take out), who are to blame for our lack of policing, longer medical wait times, less social safety nets etc, and not the conservative government who refused to fund any department properly and set the country against them all.

Here's an example of the 30 year fake news campaign against the EU by British press (this list only covers 20 years).

Enjoy (or maybe despair):
EC regulations to ban playgrounds – Daily Express
Rolling acres outlawed by Brussels – The Telegraph
EU to scrap British exams – Sunday Express
Obscure EU law halting the sale of English oak seeds – Mail on Sunday
EU may try to ban sweet and toy ads – The Times
EU to tell British farmers what they can grow – Daily Mail
EU ‘Bans Boozing’ – Daily Star
Light ale to be forced to change its name by Eurocrats – Daily Mail
EU fanatics to be forced to sing dire anthem about EU ‘Motherland’ – The Sun
British apple trees facing chop by EU – The Times
EC plan to ban noisy toys – Sunday People
EU to ban bagpipes and trapeze artists – The Sun
Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules – Daily Telegraph
Straight cucumbers – The Sun
Curved bananas banned by Brussels bureaucrats – The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express
Brussels bans barmaids from showing cleavage – The Sun, Daily Telegraph
Rumpole’s wig to scrapped by EU – Mail on Sunday
Church bells silenced by fear of EU law – Daily Telegraph
Motorists to be charged to drive in city centres under EU plans – Daily Telegraph
EU to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze – The Sun
Brandy butter to be renamed ‘brandy spreadable fat’ – The European
British loaf of bread under threat from EU– Daily Mail
Truckers face EU ban on fry-ups – The Sun
EU to ban Union Flag from British meat packs – Daily Express
EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds – Europa News Agency
Double-decker buses to be banned – Daily Telegraph
EU bans eating competition cakes – Timesonline
Now EU officials want control of your CANDLES – Daily Express
21-gun salutes are just too loud, Brussels tells the Royal Artillery – Mail on Sunday
Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales – Daily Mail
Plot to axe British number plates for standardised EU design – Daily Express
Women to be asked intimate details about sex lives in planned EU census – Daily Express
British cheese faces extinction under EU rules – PA News
EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds – The Sun, The Telegraph
British chocolate to be renamed ‘vegelate’ under EU rules – Daily Mail
EU to ban church bells – Daily Telegraph
British film producers warn of new EU threat to industry – The Independent
Kilts to be branded womenswear by EU – Daily Record
EU to ban double decker buses – Daily Mail
Cod to be renamed ‘Gadus’ thanks to EU – Daily Mail
Brussels to restrict drinking habits of Britain’s coffee lovers – Daily Express
EU responsible for your hay fever – Daily Mail, The Times
Condom dimensions to be harmonised – Independent on Sunday
EU wants to BAN your photos of the London Eye – Daily Express
Corgis to be banned by EU – Daily Mail
EU forcing cows to wear nappies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats to ban crayons and colouring pencils – The Sun
Smoky bacon crisps face EU ban – Sunday Times
EU outlaws teeth whitening products – Daily Mail
Domain names – ‘.uk’ to be replaced by ‘.eu’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to ban HGV drivers from wearing glasses – The Times
New eggs cannot be called eggs – Daily Mail
EU to ban selling eggs by the dozen – Daily Mail
UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug – Daily Star, Daily Mail
EU targets traditional Sunday roast – Sun on Sunday
English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to force EU flag on England shirts– Daily Mail
EU orders farmers to give toys to pigs – The Times
Firemen’s poles outlawed by EU – Daily Mail
Euro ban on food waste means swans cannot be fed – The Observer
Noise regulations to force football goers to wear earplugs – The Sun
Traditional Irish funeral under threat from EU – Daily Telegraph, The Times
EU to ban high-heel shoes for hairdressers– Daily Express
Commission to force fishermen to wear hairnets – Daily Telegraph
Brussels to ban herbal cures – Daily Express
Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”– the Guardian
EU bid to ban life sentences for murderers– Daily Express
New EU map makes Kent part of France – Sunday Telegraph
EU tells Welsh how to grow their leeks – The Times
EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks – News of the World
EU plot to rename Trafalgar Square & Waterloo station – Daily Express
UK milk ‘pinta’ threatened by Brussels – The Sun
EU bans ‘mince’ pies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman – The Sun
Now EU crackpots demand gypsy MPs – Daily Express
Brussels to outlaw mushy peas – The Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times
Brussels says shellfish must be given rest breaks on journeys – The Times
Pets must be pressure cooked after death – Sunday Telegraph
EU puts speed limit on children’s roundabouts – Daily Express
2-for-1 bargains to be scrapped by EU – Daily Mirror
EU madness: chat up bar girl and pub will be fined – Daily Star
Queen to be forced to get her own tea by EU– The Sun
EU tells women to hand in worn-out sex toys – The Sun
British rhubarb to be straight – The Sun
EU to ban rocking horses – The Sun
Scotch whisky rebranded a dangerous chemical by EU – Daily Telegraph
Brussels ban on pints of shandy – The Times
“High up” signs to be put on mountains – BBC
Euronotes cause impotence – Daily Mail
EU to ban under 16-year-olds from using Facebook – Daily Mail
Strawberries must be oval – The Sun
EU orders swings to be pulled down – Daily Express
Tea bags banned from being recycled – BBC
British lav to be replaced with Euro-loo – The Sun
Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harrasment – Daily Telegraph
Bosses to be told what colour carpets to buy by EU – Daily Star
EU says British yoghurt to be renamed ‘Fermented Milk Pudding’ – Sunday Mirror
EU to ban zipper trousers – The Sun

And that's before we even get to the absolute dog shit these people were printing before, during and after the referendum.

The British media have been doing the work of far right idiots and euroskeptics for longer than I've been alive, sowing the seeds of "grrr the bloody EU with their *looks at above list* oval strawberries law and their *looks again* mandatory sex toy confiscation policies!!!!"

As the saying goes, if you hammer the nail enough times, it's gonna go in.

Also, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why every brexiteer politician RAN from the leadership of the government when Cameron resigned, leaving only a person who voted to remain to be selected as prime minister by default.
 
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Mahadev

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Which lies were those? And can you provide a source for those lies?

Brexiteers always say "Project Fear claimed we would be a third world country after straight after the vote! That didn't happen! Yes the GBP has slumped to it's lowest value, the economy is the slowest growing in all of G20 after being one of the fastest growing before the vote but we are not a third world country!".

And no lie will come close to the one told by the leave campaign: "£350 million for the NHS a week if we leave!", which was debunked the next day as a lie by Farage himself.

Farage has German children, he has plenty of options if the UK goes to shit. We don't.[/QUOTE}

I don't care about Farage and his bullshit, my point is that systemic media were lying too and presenting all Brexiters as racist savages who didn't know any better when in reality there were a lot of reasons people for voting that way none of which were even addressed because the media at some point started to even believe their own bullshit. Even your assumption that it was only the Brexit side that was spreading bullshit is part of their propaganda which makes it even more frustrating. And yes their fearmongering extended way further than just an economy being "the slowest growing in all of G20" some months after the referendum, these are all short-term effects any reasonable individual could predict. Yes, the brexiters were full of shit about not having any negative effects but the anti-Brexit side was also full of shit with their doom and gloom predictions.
 
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hariseldon

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@DKehoe covered it reasonably well, but to suggest it's wholly a right-wing thing is to place too much faith in the media narrative. Certainly the right wing were the most vociferous about the topic but it's the working classes who mostly voted for Brexit, indicating there must be a left-wing case (in the old-fashoined sense as in the proletariat being the group the left cares about, rather than the current social-justice left).

I was abroad for a few years and popped back to the UK, and hunted around for a job. I just wanted to get some money to get back on my feet for a few months then figure out what to do. In the past, when I've needed to do this, I've had no difficulties. On this occasion I was turned down by McDonalds and Subway among others, bear in mind I was applying for the real bottom-rung-of-the-ladder shit jobs. I'm doing ok now btw, earning about double the national average, but it's a time I look back on to remind myself of my good fortune at having certain skillsets which the UK economy values. Anyway, back to the point. Those jobs were exclusively occupied by Eastern Europeans.

Now what has happened here is that all the entry-level jobs are basically being done by Eastern Europeans in fairly large numbers. This has a couple of effects. Firstly, it suppresses wages for people right at the bottom end of the market, because there's too much supply and not enough demand. Second, many of those environments have changed such that the lingua franca is not English (see building sites), making it hard for British people to integrate. Third, companies have become addicted to cheap labour, ceasing their investment in efficiency improvements.

My wife is what you might term a trust-fund kid. All her friends are too. A hell of a lot of them, the ones who weren't bright enough to be doctors or lawyers, work in the media. The BBC especially is full of them. They've never been to a working class area in their lives, and know nothing of the difficulty of keeping the lights on without a job, because mummy and daddy will always be there to bail them out. They hang out with people who are similarly comfortable, in their little bubble, often in London. Life is very different for them vs the rest of the country. This is why they missed what was happening.

Lots of things get funding from the EU, including for instance much of science and academia here, though of course this comes from money we send them - effectively the EU has bought influence with our own money. This of course means that academics are also pro-EU, they know which side their bread is buttered on. All this creates a tension between the chattering classes and the 'thick working-class racists' as the middle-class inevitably characterise them. Of course, much like calling republicans deplorables, calling leavers racists did little to persuade them of the value of remaining, and in truth nobody made a case for why we should stay, what the EU actually does for us.

In general, I get the romantic ideal of the EU, it really sounds wonderfully idealistic, the idea that anyone can go anywhere, but in a bloc with enormous disparity of economics, especially when you factor in the eastern countries admitted more recently, what you get is en-masse movement from poor countries to richer countries, and so now we have Eastern Europeans taking out the bottom rung of the ladder for British residents, Romanians and Bulgarians mostly begging, and British people finding it bloody hard. Yes some are benefit scroungers but that's not a complete picture by any means - anyone can find themselves in need of a job, and those shitty jobs were often a useful route back in after a setback, a chance to reset and face the world anew. Losing that has taken out the route back into the workforce for many. People are understandably angry about that. There is some anecdotal evidence that wages for those at the bottom are going up, in addition to the changes in minimum wages enacted recently, at least partly in response to the difficulty in finding cheap EU labour. To me that tells me the decision is the right one for the UK.

I'll try to post something a bit more in-depth at a later date.
 

DKehoe

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Jun 19, 2007
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@DKehoe covered it reasonably well, but to suggest it's wholly a right-wing thing is to place too much faith in the media narrative.
This is true. I realised after I posted it that I was over simplifying things in that aspect. The initial driving force for Brexit certainly came from the right of the political spectrum but there were supporters for it on the left as well. Because @PKM had asked how it came about I made the mistake of focusing on that aspect. But I wouldn't want it to be misleading. In the lead up to the Brexit vote both campaigns had people from various political parties supporting them. Corbyn is the most left leaning Labour leader in decades and he wasn't exactly enthusiastic about his support for remain.


I think @PKM was trying to get an understanding of the basics of the issue. I understand Brexit is an issue that a lot of people get passionate about but just linking to people ranting about it isn't going to help someone who isn't sure what Brexit actually means.
 
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azz0r

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I think @PKM was trying to get an understanding of the basics of the issue. I understand Brexit is an issue that a lot of people get passionate about but just linking to people ranting about it isn't going to help someone who isn't sure what Brexit actually means.
Sure, I would say though that it's a good snapshot of both sides. Just my opinion.
 

hariseldon

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Aug 22, 2018
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This is true. I realised after I posted it that I was over simplifying things in that aspect. The initial driving force for Brexit certainly came from the right of the political spectrum but there were supporters for it on the left as well. Because @PKM had asked how it came about I made the mistake of focusing on that aspect. But I wouldn't want it to be misleading. In the lead up to the Brexit vote both campaigns had people from various political parties supporting them. Corbyn is the most left leaning Labour leader in decades and he wasn't exactly enthusiastic about his support for remain.
I'd say we're largely in agreement here.

I'm just going to add something I forgot to put in my original post - was going to edit but as posts have come after it that might be a bit disingenuous. For me, one of the reasons to leave the EU is how it has behaved towards its member states. Consider the treatment of Greece, in concert with the ECB and the IMF, which has been systematically reducing its people to abject poverty. Were Greece independent, with its own currency, there would have been options available that would have potentially been far better, but being in the EU, tied to a currency managed for the benefit of the richer Northern nations, they had no chance.

Consider also the technocratic government installed in Italy in response to its own crisis, again a product of the EU's anti-democratic nature.

I'm sure I'm not entirely alone in looking at the EU, with the rise of the far right, and seeing shades of The Phantom Menace, with Tusk as Palpatine. A little over-dramatic perhaps but the parallels are there, even if Tusk can't shoot lightning from his fingers.
 

Yoshi

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I'd say we're largely in agreement here.

I'm just going to add something I forgot to put in my original post - was going to edit but as posts have come after it that might be a bit disingenuous. For me, one of the reasons to leave the EU is how it has behaved towards its member states. Consider the treatment of Greece, in concert with the ECB and the IMF, which has been systematically reducing its people to abject poverty. Were Greece independent, with its own currency, there would have been options available that would have potentially been far better, but being in the EU, tied to a currency managed for the benefit of the richer Northern nations, they had no chance.

Consider also the technocratic government installed in Italy in response to its own crisis, again a product of the EU's anti-democratic nature.

I'm sure I'm not entirely alone in looking at the EU, with the rise of the far right, and seeing shades of The Phantom Menace, with Tusk as Palpatine. A little over-dramatic perhaps but the parallels are there, even if Tusk can't shoot lightning from his fingers.
You have to differentiate between merely being a member state and having the currency. GB does not have the Euro and is much stronger than Greece, the situation is not comparable. Mind you, I was appaled by the German governement's behaviour in the Greece crisis, but this is not something that could happen to UK.

There is some anecdotal evidence that wages for those at the bottom are going up, in addition to the changes in minimum wages enacted recently, at least partly in response to the difficulty in finding cheap EU labour. To me that tells me the decision is the right one for the UK.
Brexit hasn't even happened yet, minimum wage is a political decision that could have been made also without Brexit (in fact, Germany has introduced a minimum wage a few years back, so the EU certainly is not blocking any of that). Of course, with all political constellations there are always winners and losers with something like the EU and low-earning people are among the people who have lost from it a bit, however, UK is a exporting nation, for the majority of people I expect the situation to get worse due to the Brexit. If the currency also takes a signficiant hit (hard to say in advance of course), any positive effect on minimum wage may quickly be eaten up by that. Even though I can understand the motivation behind it, the problem is less the EU and more the neoliberal alignment of the internation market of which you won't get rid via Brexit. The only people who will really benefit are racists.
 

hariseldon

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@Yoshi - agreed they can't do that kind of shit to us, but my point is more that membership of such an organisation is somewhat unpalatable when that behaviour exists. As to brexit not happening, you are of course correct, but an exodus of EU citizens has started to happen. Anecdotally, a fair few in my company have gone back to their home countries, and while I don't have links to hand, even the notoriously pro-remain BBC ran an article on the topic of wages going up due to difficulties in hiring EU staff.

Re minimum wage I merely mentioned that as it was a factor in wages going up, not due to any link with the EU.

For me, brexit is a lesser evil than remaining. I'm certainly not under any illusion that a great empire will take over the world and everything will be sunshine and puppies once we leave the EU. I do however consider that the EU is in danger of turning to tyranny as it has taken in countries not wholly devoted to democracy and the rule of law, and those countries are incresing their influence while some traditionally pretty solid countries are seeing the far right rise.

In my opinion, Brexit, done correctly, will give us space to find our place in the world, which as one of the world's larger economies ought to be a reasonably good one. It's likely that we'd co-operate with the EU on areas where we have common ground, just as we do with the US, and really the armaggeddon predictions of project fear seem to me like so much fear-mongering. As someone who has worked abroad somewhere where visas and work permits were required, I can tell you that it really isn't that much of a hardship, and bringing a bit of control to who comes into and out of the country can only be a good thing, as we can ensure the right mix of skills and be careful not to pull away the bottom rung of the ladder from those who need it most (and it puzzles me that the nu-left doesn't seem to see that as important). With the ability to negotiate our own trade deals and make our own choices in the world, we have a better shot at avoiding the mess that the EU is heading for through economic and social mismanagement.
 

.rain

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Nov 6, 2016
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It's not just that. A lot of it goes back to De Gaulle's repeated vetos of the UK joining much earlier than it did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splendid_isolation
Euro released in 99 (and European currencies were already tied before that). German economy was at its worst in 2003. So no, it doesn't look like the Euro was some clever shenanigan meant to benefit Germany. They did play their cards rights while others didn't, but there's no reason to believe they had an unfair advantage.
Yeah, sure... And in every country prices went higher after switching to euro. But it doesn't matter, unity above all. Who cares about people...
 

ToughestSoul

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Dec 11, 2018
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Imagine a big harbour where a medium sized ship is towed at the pier.

The harbour is very familiar and safe but slightly decrepit and nobody is really in charge of maintaining it.

Now imagine the sailors on the ship cutting that rope and moving the ship away from the land into uncharted waters while there is a big brawl going on deck.
 

Kazza

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The Nine Lessons of Brexit

The above is a speech written by the UK's former ambassador to the EU, Ivan Rogers. Given his former position, it would be surprising to no one to say that he was on the remain side of the argument. However, it looks to be fairly balanced (he seems to have given up any hope of remaining). Worth a read, if you have the time (it's not a short article)
 

.rain

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Nov 6, 2016
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EU is sinking so Br is exiting.
And they still don't know about it.

Tusk and the rest paid billions to Erdogan for not letting people in. Erdogan is an ass but he's not stupid. He's using the situation for own purposes. I simply can't accept that the whole continent is being blackmailed by just one country. Our politicans are just awful.