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[KingV]

OP, you raise an interesting point about modern game design. There has become a dichotomy between designing games that are fun to play vs. Games that compel you to play.

On one hand you have something like Mario Kart or Mario Party, where there is not much long term purpose or goal, the primary draw is the moment to moment gameplay. The other end of the spectrum is something like clash of clans, where certain aspects are fun, but the game is designed more to hit psychological triggers to make you want to play it more and more in pursuit of some long term goal within the game.

Unfortunately, someone figured out that free to play mechanics are very good at getting people to play your games, and have started bringing these compelling elements into console games too.

Now that my playing time is more limited, I personally strive to play more games that provide either tons of fun or an interesting experience rather than psychological tricks to get you to play for 100s of hours.

I'm not sure what the answer is. But I greatly prefer games that offer an interesting or fun experience instead of something that is very samey but has hooks to keep you playing for hundreds of hours.

 

[SerOnionKnight]

Your son has bad taste in games and you should feel bad.

That said sometimes the only way to learn something is to learn it yourself.

 

[Alebrije]

I hate Hay Day , those fuk... Animals scared me in the middle of the night one day my son left the IPad near our bed. I was sleeping when suddenly hear a lamb /sheep near me , jumped out of my bed like crazy because I really thought it was the devil or something , for worse that day watched Anabelle movie before going to sleep

Anyway my son downloaded a ton of those games thanks to his friends so I gave him a rule that he just can keep 3 games once and Hay Day had to go to Oblivion. I sleep better now.

 

[MysteryM]

My lad is a few months away from his GCSE's (he's 16 years old). He's been working hard but we've caught him on clash of the clans one too many times and, after having warned him that he needs to focus on school and play games when he has time I've had to block the CotC ports on the router so that he can't access it in the house any more or on his phone (he doesn't have 3g access). This was yesterday.

I've told him that come 3 months time he can play it as much as he likes, he's moped around a bit and clearly its upset him but enough is enough. He needs to get onto getting decent A-Level grades and then onto university so needs to be focused.

Its going to be tough but I don't think he'll regret it long term.

 

[NowhereFaded]

Bummer. How much screen time do u allow your son?
Also, lol @ the "introduce him to COD" reply.

 

[Deactivision]

Get an Xbox 360 and show him command and conquer red alert 3

I'll definitely do this (already have the Xbox). I am hungry for suggestions of alternatives that will possibly scratch the strategy gaming itch and provide a fuller experience. I should have included this in the OP.

I feel like true RTS games like Starcraft etc might be too fast-paced and stressful for him, though. I'd love to find a deeper strategy game that can be played more casually, or relatively stress-free.

Just want to add that I absolutely love the conversation here, and I'm really glad I started this thread. Again, I'm sorry I can't take part a bit more but mostly I just wanted to hear people's thoughts. I'm starting to figure out how I want to approach this situation and I will try to update with my thoughts later on.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Holy shit. This is just false information. Go play some of those games.

They are DESIGNED to be addictive. They are not 'simple and easy to play'. He isn't talking about Rocket Cars is he?

Does not apply in this case. The question is, should a 9 year old be exposed to the mental terraforming done by these apps.

Seriously guys, go and play Clash of Clans, Boom Beach, ... before commenting.

I agree this question has merit. I don't claim to know the answer to it, but would love to see some serious research on it. We're learning a lot more about reward mechanisms, which ones are more effective and how they relate to addiction.

We know differing dosages of dopamine get released depending on what type of reward is employed for instance, but how this type of exposure affects a child during a crucial developmental phase is worth looking into, as opposed to handwaving it away with "you're acting like other old people did in regards to books, music, movies and the games you played as a kid".

 

[Huff]

Sounds like your pissed your kid just doesnt like Nintendo game

 

[orthodoxy1095]

You folks are passing around the wrong South Park image: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac


Yes, all games have game loops to entice you to keep playing. No, not all games make you pay more money to keep you in the game loop. No, not all games post to your Facebook or send you a phone notification to keep playing to trigger a want. No, pulling off an intricate gameplay mechanic to release dopamine is not the same as having flashing lights and whimsical sounds thrown at you constantly like a god damned slot machine to release dopamine. To act as if all games are made the same and some aren't made to be literal addiction machines is disingenuous.

Bolding this to point out that your post is a portrait of some F2P games. Some F2P games are "addiction machines" (to vulnerable people), but not a single one I've got installed does what you suggested

 

[PAULINK]

I used to be hooked on some f2p games, then I got bored, and moved on. Maybe he will get his fill and do the same.

 

[JetSetRadio]

Cheap pc.

Rollercoaster Tycoon, Dungeon Keeper and Duke 3D.

 

[Boy Wander]

I bought my kid an iPad. Worst move ever. Now he plays downloadable free shit all the time. Hasn't hardly touched smash on wii U or Pokemon. I share your pain.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

You should absolutely stop your kids from getting trapped into addiction holes. Not every F2P game qualifies, but many do.

Whether or not they decide to play the games you like is their own call, but you should definitely keep them from playing games that can be harmful to them.

 

[stolin]

This is the case for the most part, he's had a 3DS for a year or two already... Christmas was Fantasy Life and Pokemon and neither has been played for more than a few hours. He was pretty hooked on Fantasy Life for a few days but he forgot to save and his mom popped the cart out so he lost a bunch of progress and hasn't returned to it since.

This is the saddest thing I ever heard... get him back on that wagon pronto. Tell him stories about loosing MemCard data on PSOne/PS2 to shitty 3rd party memcards. Gotta learn this stuff.

Fantasy Life is great for him, also Pokemon will teach so much about game mechanics. My 9 year old nephew had the same 3DS Christmas but have now completed both the games... partly because were were playing them together and helping/guiding him. I knew what was going on since I was also playing them. I would get yourself a n3DS XL and a copy of either and start playing as well to make game play time a together time. We also do the same thing with co-op on the LEGO Batman games.

Good luck.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

Take his iPod touch away from him. When he starts crying say "what, you're gonna cry now? Waaaaah. I'll give you something to cry about." Then tell him to punch you in the face and push him around until he actually does. When he throws the punch, dodge his attack and turn around and push him into the dirt. He might look up at you with disdain at this point which is good, it shows he's learning. Now pat him on the head and say "let's play counter strike."

 

[FlyingSaucer]

A Nintendo game a day keeps the evil freemium shovelware away~

 

[Fisty]

Take his iPod touch away from him. When he starts crying say "what, you're gonna cry now? Waaaaah. I'll give you something to cry about." Then tell him to punch you in the face and push him around until he actually does. When he throws the punch, dodge his attack and turn around and push him into the dirt. He might look up at you with disdain at this point which is good, it shows he's learning. Now pat him on the head and say "let's play counter strike."

"Should have circle-strafed, twerp. Learn to backstab!"

Kids need Souls games, they really do.

 

[biglittleps]

Let him play what he wants. If he is having fun, isn't that all the matters?

Sometimes people can have fun on doing bad things too. We need to have moral values to choose and have fun on good things instead of going after bad.

 

[stuminus3]

To act as if all games are made the same and some aren't made to be literal addiction machines is disingenuous.

No-one in their right might would argue that they aren't. But they're addictive to make you pay, not to make you play.

Since (I presume) parents on GAF are smart enough to not pull out the credit card every time one of these games suggests it, then it doesn't matter. Kids will act the same way if you tell them they're playing too much Clash of Clans as they would if you tell them they're playing too much Pokemon or they're playing too much Space Invaders.

...unless someone seriously think their kids are getting more "development and growth" out of Mario Kart than Angry Birds Go in which case, yeesh.

 

[biglittleps]

A Nintendo game a day keeps the evil freemium shovelware away~

People these days are after connected experiences more and want to play what their friends have so they can play together. Mostly nintendo games are not that very well connected as their online is always not good compared to PSN/LIVE for social experience except few games as they lack features.

 

[Stimpack]

There's going to be a real flood of fresh developers growing up with Minecraft. I hope they can manage to offer something outside of Minecraft and "simulator" games.

 

[vocab]

Poor kid, surrounded by a bunch of shitty games that were solely made to extract dollars from whales. I'm basically convinced their generation is fucked when it comes to getting people to stick with games.

You have every right to be concerned. They aren't good games, and they aren't games that have complexity and depth. As long as you don't cave with the credit card, hopefully he or she will come to the conclusion that these games are straight up shallow.

 

[ElCidTmax]

I only let my 9yo son play games on the weekends, since he tends to get waaaaay too fixated on games on the days he gets to play them. His homework suffered and he had a bad attitude about when it was time to stop playing. It just wasn't worth it. And sure, he wasn't too happy about that change, but he got over it.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Use this as a learning opportunity to teach him exactly how the game is exploiting his psychology. Learning such bullshittery at age 9 will really have him internalize the evilness and he will be a master of tricking people out of their money. Turn him into a future CEO.

 

[cacildo]

I think is bad

"Ley the kid play what he wants" nah, these games are bad for anyone, and little kids dont know any better

 

[CarbonFire]

No-one in their right might would argue that they aren't. But they're addictive to make you pay, not to make you play.

That's not entirely true. One of the biggest aspects of a lot of these popular F2P games is the social aspect. If they can get you to play because all your friends are playing, then eventually someone will end up paying to get ahead. YOU don't have to pay, but as long as you keep playing, someone will. It's all a numbers game, and it feeds off peer pressure, which kids are extra susceptible to.

 

[Coconut]

Freemium games are the new arcade cabinets.

 

[t26]

Feel like we could have a topic 20 years ago how a 9 year old loves to spend money at the arcade instead of playing his Super Nintendo

 

[Quixotic7B]

I feel like true RTS games like Starcraft etc might be too fast-paced and stressful for him, though. I'd love to find a deeper strategy game that can be played more casually, or relatively stress-free.

For Strategy games that are slower than Starcraft:

I'd suggest something like Wargame : European Escalation / AirLand Battle / Red Dragon
(I'd say that W:EE is the slowest of those three).
Do note, the Wargame (EE/ALB/RD) series is Real Time Tactics, not traditional RTS.

I've heard Grey Goo is slower than Starcraft (Haven't tried Grey Goo yet, but have heard it from others).

The Act of War series is rather good, but a) they've been removed from Steam, and b) basically need a lot of tweaking to run on modern OSes. (Eugen is currently working on a spiritual successor titled Act of Aggression)

Tom Clancy's Endwar (Real Time Tactics):
This one is an oddball. It is rather shallow when it comes to units, however it is rather easy to learn how to play (considering it was a multiplat title, as opposed to PC-only [Read: Simplified Controls/etc]). The major upside to this title apart from the simplicity is that it also has a voice command interface...Which while sometimes a pain in the rear, may make it more interesting for your child.

Jane's Fleet Command: (Fleet Command on steam)
Another oddball (mainly on the list because I grew up playing this). Real Time Tactics (Pauseable). Very easy to get into (basics), The graphics may be a bit...old, but they're definitely functional. I have no idea if this will work properly on modern OSes though (Have had some troubles running it on one of my Win 8.1 machines, while the other win 8.1 machine works just fine)

World in Conflict:
This one I'm actually up in the air about. Your child may love it, or your child may end up being traumatized by it (the campaign is...depressing to say the least). The mechanics are fun, and it's a lot less "hectic" than Starcraft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be hesitant to recommend anything on the below list unless:
a) you are willing to play these with your child to help explain a lot of the more "esoteric" elements
or b) you want to throw your child into the deep end of wargaming with only a manual and nothing else

Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations
-This one, despite using time compression has a pause system. However it doesn't have a pretty visual display (it's 2D symbols on a globe, no 3D models here), and the database of units is a bit daunting for even the most hardcore military buffs. This also has no base building (it's closer to a simulator than an RTS)

Combat Mission: Shock Force or Combat Mission: Black Sea
-These games are a bit more accessible, but they're still probably a bit...well, dense, for lack of a better word. This also has no base building (Once again, closer to a simulator)

Paradox Interactive games (CK/Sengoku/March Of The Eagles/EU/Vicky/HOI/...etc)
-The reason I'd be careful about these is simply due to how much data is thrown at the player at the outset. Might be a good game to play together though.

Larry Bond's Harpoon Series:
Not Recommended anymore (Pretty much completely replaced by C:MA/NO). Only if you want to get your child into the "history" of Wargaming.

 

[darkistheway]

Freemium games are the new arcade cabinets.

The sheer availability of these type of games makes for order-of-magnitude difference. Not to mention arcade games had actual costs - costs that help a parent modulate behaviour.

 

[Denton]

Use this as a learning opportunity to teach him exactly how the game is exploiting his psychology. Learning such bullshittery at age 9 will really have him internalize the evilness and he will be a master of tricking people out of their money. Turn him into a future CEO.

hahaha....
this

 

[Dr.Acula]

I wouldn't let a kid play most of the fremium shovelware. Many of those games are exploitative, Skinner-boxes based games, not that different to slot machines. I can't think those are good for a kid. Not even for many adults.

Cosign. I would rather a kid play a violent game like Mortal Kombat or Call of Duty than these.

The evidence that violent media (books/tv/music/games) leads to violent behavior is weak. The evidence that people become addicted to media (internet/pornography/games) is strong.

 

[BadWolf]

Don't have kids but if I did these games would definitely be off limits. They are built from the ground up to hook people into continuously wasting time and paying money.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Buy him counterparts that have no freemium bullshit i.e. one time upgrade to no ads, etc.

 

[Astral Dog]

Its the future, OP, get with the times.

 

[Chaos17]

Just don't ever lend him any credit card and warn your relatives.
I remember a thread where an aunt gave to her niece her credit card.
The bill was salty.

 

[Adry9]

To the orphanage. Lost cause.

This.

 

[shaowebb]

When games become a job you have to stop doing other things for then its time to just outright quit. Whatever the investment you've made you will never dig out...only deeper. Just abandon the pit and come back out and enjoy things. Took me a year to kick Marvel Puzzle Quest. Since then my productivity at home and self fulfillment has skyrocketed.

 

[Impeccable]

Perhaps we should separate the potential damage these evil villianous non-games have on adults as opposed to a nine year old child or teenager.

The child cannot spend money because of the illegal casino-ridden shark tactics.

He cannot feel compulsed into checking his city twelve times a day - he has school.

He admittedly runs more than one game at a time so he can "do more". Not addicted to one game. In fact, learning good time management.

He is playing a game with his friends as opposed feeling he has to play the game.

His parent is already on the case and keeping tabs on it and play times.

The game is fine and the child is having an absolute fun time.


I'll just concede and leave all the bad and mis-informed opinions on why these don't qualify as games or as a viable thing to have fun with alone. And let everyone live in a world where they pretend they aren't being manipulated by the same mechanics behind the scene of a lot of AAA games.

 

[GenoStarz]

Don't have a child myself but my little sister would only play mobile games as well. Noticed she played Sims often so I told her about the PC version. She played enough to gain an interest in PC games later on. So far she finished The Walking Dead Seasons, BioShock Infinite, Brothers, and a number of Nintendo games from my childhood.

Never played Clash of Clans but maybe let him try out some RTS games? Or at least find a game that is similar to his favorite genre that is not on mobile devices and start from there.

 

[hotpants2k]

I wouldn't let a kid play most of the fremium shovelware. Many of those games are exploitative, Skinner-boxes based games, not that different to slot machines. I can't think those are good for a kid. Not even for many adults.

This. OP ignore many of these people who encourage you not to steer your kid in the proper direction.

It's like your kid is misbehaving in public and some stranger tells you to not correct the behavior. They go home and your problem is not theirs

You've got to live with the kid, help him be the best he can be. That includes insuring he doesn't get sucked into the toxic gaming trend

 

[xzeldax3]

Jailbreak his device, install a iap hack, get him 9999999 gems, gold, etc., and the he will see how pointless the games are.

 

[More_Badass]

Again, some F2P recommendations that are actually good games

If you want some suggestions, here are fun F2P games that I'd recommend:

- Sky Force 2014
- Only One
- Quadblast
- Quadropus Rampage
- No One Said It Was Easy (remove ads IAP)
- Crossy Road
- Rocket Cars
- Dark Slash 2
- TimeCube (no IAP)
- Platform Panic (remove ads IAP, currency)
- One More Line (no IAP)
- POLYGANIC (no IAP)
- Hex:99 (premium unlock IAP
- Checkpoint Champion
- Vektor (no IAP)
- Beat Leap (by Werplay) (donate to dev IAP)
- Staying Together (full game unlock)
- Ninjin (full game unlock)
- Smash Hit (premium unlock IAP)

 

[Extra Sauce]

Just block the MAC address of the iPod touch on the router and pretend you don't know what's wrong.

lol

 

[DNAbro]

Jailbreak his device, install a iap hack, get him 9999999 gems, gold, etc., and the he will see how pointless the games are.

If this is possible do this. Would probably make him wonder why he was playing/waiting.

Also I really question how many people here have played these games. I played Dragon City for like 2 months cause of friends before I realized how fucking stupid it was. Game is designed to be addictive and was annoying me. Even though I knew that going in, I still played for awhile.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Perhaps we should separate the potential damage these evil villianous non-games have on adults as opposed to a nine year old child or teenager.

The child cannot spend money because of the illegal casino-ridden shark tactics.

He cannot feel compulsed into checking his city twelve times a day - he has school.

He admittedly runs more than one game at a time so he can "do more". Not addicted to one game. In fact, learning good time management.

He is playing a game with his friends as opposed feeling he has to play the game.

His parent is already on the case and keeping tabs on it and play times.

The game is fine and the child is having an absolute fun time.


I'll just concede and leave all the bad and mis-informed opinions on why these don't qualify as games or as a viable thing to have fun with alone. And let everyone live in a world where they pretend they aren't being manipulated by the same mechanics behind the scene of a lot of AAA games.

A 9 year old boy is extremely vulnerable and still developing his personality. Games are games, sure. But these games are proven, and created with the purpose of, invading someone's life and causing them to feel dependent on the game.

Not because it is so fun or challenging, even though the act of grinding or feeling you are rewarded will give a sense of fun, but the single purpose of the game is to try and get into the players' head.

Timers, notices, a gameplay loop that largely consists of going through menu's/hearing ding ding ding rewards trickling down giving a false sense of accomplishment, even though there really is no 'end game', no way to 'win'.

(And this is not like an artsy Tale of Tales game, because these games do give the impression that there IS some kind of end goal, always at the edge of the horizon.)

It is not about money spent/lost or time wasted, it is about the damage this will do to a young child's development.

It's a new thing, and we won't know the true effects this can have on a developing mind for a long while, but please do not compare this business model to getting addicted to Call of Duty. It is nowhere on the same scale, and due to the platform/delivery methods, won't be the same for a long time to come.

Lately though, in his allotted screen time, it's been nothing but maintenance of his f2p mobile games, upgrading this, attacking that...

This is key. Maintenance. Work. He is a slave to the game. Log in now, click a few things, get your daily gems! If you don't, you'll get less gems tomorrow!

Edit: To clarify, this is not about F2P. There are a ton of fantastic F2P games! I'm talking about specific game design such as Farmville.

 

[Mihos]

Neither one of my kids ever played anything good either.... just be glad your getting off cheap. But for the love of god, don't let him have access to a credit card number.

A lot of these games are specifically designed to prey and addictive/obsessive personalities, and will make it hard for an immature mind to not start dumping coins into it.

 

[Hazaro]

No-one in their right might would argue that they aren't. But they're addictive to make you pay, not to make you play.

Since (I presume) parents on GAF are smart enough to not pull out the credit card every time one of these games suggests it, then it doesn't matter. Kids will act the same way if you tell them they're playing too much Clash of Clans as they would if you tell them they're playing too much Pokemon or they're playing too much Space Invaders.

...unless someone seriously think their kids are getting more "development and growth" out of Mario Kart than Angry Birds Go in which case, yeesh.

Nah, the way the friend system works, stamina works, etc. exerts pressure to tab into the game 2-3 times a day to do the things that need doing because otherwise you are not playing optimally. Events that come around a few times a week are 2-5x the normal playtime benefit and you feel bad if you miss too many.

Juggle anymore than 1 or 2 tops and it's a massive time sink in games that have very shallow gameplay depth.

@OP I'd be seriously concerned with TOO MANY of them and the social strings pulling to do everything. Even just 1 game can be a big time sink depending on the stamina / co-op system.

 

[stuminus3]

That's not entirely true. One of the biggest aspects of a lot of these popular F2P games is the social aspect. If they can get you to play because all your friends are playing, then eventually someone will end up paying to get ahead. YOU don't have to pay, but as long as you keep playing, someone will. It's all a numbers game, and it feeds off peer pressure, which kids are extra susceptible to.

Heh... that's not a videogame thing. That's something you have to deal with raising a kid period. I briefly touched on this earlier, it's a subject I've deliberated a lot over with my wife. When my sister was young it was Pokemon. When I was a kid I remember frickin'... coca cola yo-yos or something. If your parents didn't buy you a coca cola yo-yo you were a loser.

Nah, the way the friend system works, stamina works, etc. exerts pressure to tab into the game 2-3 times a day to do the things that need doing because otherwise you are not playing optimally. Events that come around a few times a week are 2-5x the normal playtime benefit and you feel bad if you miss too many.

...yes, you feel bad... and you pay money. What do you think all that stuff is for?

 

[Impeccable]

Timers, notices, a gameplay loop that largely consists of going through menu's/hearing ding ding ding rewards trickling down giving a false sense of accomplishment, even though there really is no 'end game', no way to 'win'. The only winner is the F2P company.

It is not about money spent/lost or time wasted, it is about the damage this will do to a young child's development.

It's a new thing, and we won't know the true effects this can have on a developing mind for a long while, but please do not compare this business model to getting addicted to Call of Duty. It is nowhere on the same scale, and due to the platform/delivery methods, won't be the same for a long time to come.

And again, you can apply a lot of the same things to almost every game ever released including to "CoD on a nine year old will make him a murderer~!~!"

I literally cannot wrap my head around gamers of all people hating games because they happened to once read an article about how some of these games are designed and applying it to arguments like this as scientific evidence that it will fuck this child up for life.

Listen, I see how it can mess people up. I get that. Stop pretending there is science behind ruining the child and stop applying logic that applies to literally ALL games to one sub-section of the hobby because "we dun like it". All games can mess a kid up I'm sure. You hollar about free to play and my neighbour who is old as fuck will scream about how Grand Theft Auto is ruining today's youth.

This literally feels like I'm standing amongst peers who have started yelling at Elvis for being too sexual while I enjoy the music and don't understand the problem and am able to embrace change to something I like.