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High budget first party PS3 title canceled - OR NOT See #211

plagiarize

Banned
May 24, 2006
41,133
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davidjaffe said:
Guys (gals?), just be aware that MANY MANY MANY games- including 90% of the ones I have worked on- go thru growing pains. It's called the creative process. Sometimes those pains are so bad that you don't think you can go on (GOD OF WAR, in my case), sometimes they are not that bad. BUT just because you hear about a game that is (or WAS) struggling thru the process, doesn't mean ANYTHING. That is the process for much of the time. Hell, they KILLED the first draft of HALF LIFE and started again...how many times did they push back ZELDA (which ZELDA? Hell, how about MOST of them)...you REALLY think it was to 'give the game more polish and give gamers the game the deserve'? Well sure it was, but you also never stopped to think that the extra time was needed because the game didn't sail thru the dev. process like butter in the first place?
here he's just saying that lots of games have teething problems.

So just because some disgruntled ex-worker- who thought the game should have been made HIS way- is now getting his 15 minutes by spouting off to some news source, does not mean he is bringing any meat to the table in terms of valid information. It may be TRUE information in terms of a game having been down a tough road, but again- that is par for the course.

David
saying that 'this does not mean it's true' is not the same thing as saying 'this is not true'. clear?

it may well be true to say that most games that make it to market went through teething problems, but it may also be true to say that most games that run into problems don't make it to market. those two statements may appear contradictory, but they aren't.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Jun 8, 2004
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plagiarize said:
saying that 'this does not mean it's true' is not the same thing as saying 'this is not true'. clear?
yeah, I get it. GAFland - where every post has a double meaning.

Unfortunately, just because his post doesn't expressly say what the state of Warhawk is doesn't automatically mean his post was a carefully worded non-denial.
 

plagiarize

Banned
May 24, 2006
41,133
1
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kaching said:
yeah, I get it. GAFland - where every post has a double meaning.

Unfortunately, just because his post doesn't expressly say what the state of Warhawk is doesn't automatically mean his post was a carefully worded non-denial.
oh, i'm not saying it's a 'non denial' because it's true that the game is heading to the PSN store... i think it's because as he said before that he didn't really think it was his place to comment on any specific problems warhawk was running into. he might not even know for sure beyond knowing that the game is still being worked on. i guess i just want to be clear on what he did and didn't deny.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Jun 8, 2004
21,854
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So jaffe is just talking about what he knows and we have to call that "a carefully word non-denial" now?
 

plagiarize

Banned
May 24, 2006
41,133
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kaching said:
So jaffe is just talking about what he knows and we have to call that "a carefully word non-denial" now?
that's not what i meant. i just meant that given how people misconstrue these things that we shouldn't say someone denied something when they didn't. remember assassin's creed ps3 exclusive. remember gta 4 xbox 360 exclusive.

i'm actually hoping this debate will bring Jaffe back to clear things up on the issue, and i wouldn't be upset if i'm wrong. if it turns out to be true that the game is being put on the PSN store, i don't want people saying that Jaffe lied.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Jul 9, 2004
23,084
1
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kaching said:
So jaffe is just talking about what he knows and we have to call that "a carefully word non-denial" now?
It sounded like a carefully-worded non-denial to me. Give the guy a break, he's got to answe rto his company, and they don't want people talking out of school.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
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plagiarize said:
that's not what i meant. i just meant that given how people misconstrue these things that we shouldn't say someone denied something when they didn't. remember assassin's creed ps3 exclusive. remember gta 4 xbox 360 exclusive.

i'm actually hoping this debate will bring Jaffe back to clear things up on the issue, and i wouldn't be upset if i'm wrong. if it turns out to be true that the game is being put on the PSN store, i don't want people saying that Jaffe lied.

I see what you are saying. And you are right. But if Warhawk appears on PSN then that wouldn't mean Jaffe lied at all. As a matter of fact it would make sense.

1. Direction of game is not clear
2. Game goes through rough times
3. Pissed off employees leave
4. SCEA hires a few more people
5. Incog decides to make the game smaller due to problems
6. Incog decides to make the main game more multiplayer like Battlefield 2
7. SCEA decides to make Warhawk the #1 downloadable full game on PSN due to changes

GAF is happy and Jaffe is still not a liar.
 

charlequin

Banned
Oct 19, 2005
26,635
1
1,405
beermonkey@tehbias said:
If some hypothetical game isn't 'good enough' for retail, why would I want to pay for it on PN?
Because it'll be cheaper? Single-player content creation is expensive and difficult, and if a company cooks up a game with a solid engine and fun multiplayer gameplay but can't (for whatever reason) justify the expenditure necessary to get a worthwhile single player campaign into shape, it can easily be worth $10-$20 as a downloadable game.

Actually, this is exactly the sort of thing that the downloadable networks should be enabling companies to do with games that run into rough spots like this instead of cancelling them completely and losing out on all the time, money, and effort invested.
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
Mar 8, 2005
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855
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Wow! It seems like I have to explain stuff very carefully!
And I would like too, but again, it's not my place to go into the details.
Really, I mean,I do work for Sony, right?
How would you like it if someone who worked for you started spouting all the info?
And still, the thing to be aware of is that I don't lie.
While I may not be able to give away the details, what I said is accurate.
Killing titles is not something any company does lightly.
Lightly killing a game from a studio as experienced as Incog? That's even more rare.
I think you guys will be happy when you play the game in question tho.
Very happy.
Everyone should just move on to the next topic at hand.
Sheesh! Can't even say one word around these parts :)
 

davidjaffe

The Fucking MAN.
Mar 8, 2005
748
855
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If some hypothetical game isn't 'good enough' for retail, why would I want to pay for it on PN?
I hope this attitude changes. Sony Network Store is not a dumping ground for the 'not good enough' titles of the world. That's like saying THE SOPRANO'S wanted to be a movie but had to settle for HBO. Not saying all the games reflect that level yet-and that is OUR job to prove to you that downloadable games are JUST as good as retail games, just different- but I hope when we do start continually putting out games of a high quality that this view will change. And I can tell you, in Santa Monica we approach EVERY downloadable title we make with the same passion, love, and dedication to the craft as we do every full 60 buck retail product.

David
 
Sep 20, 2005
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Ok I totally didn't follow this thread. So where are we at now? Is this ture or not? And any word on where the talent went?
 

Beer Monkey

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davidjaffe said:
I hope this attitude changes. Sony Network Store is not a dumping ground for the 'not good enough' titles of the world. That's like saying THE SOPRANO'S wanted to be a movie but had to settle for HBO. Not saying all the games reflect that level yet-and that is OUR job to prove to you that downloadable games are JUST as good as retail games, just different- but I hope when we do start continually putting out games of a high quality that this view will change. And I can tell you, in Santa Monica we approach EVERY downloadable title we make with the same passion, love, and dedication to the craft as we do every full 60 buck retail product.

David
I've spent at least $75 on Xbox Arcade and have bought Lemmings and Blast Factor so far on Playstation Network with no regrets. I love smaller, indie-style games. I just find it odd for a big budget game (again, hypothetically speaking) that was targeted for retail to end up launching on a download service.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Jun 8, 2004
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plagiarize said:
that's not what i meant. i just meant that given how people misconstrue these things that we shouldn't say someone denied something when they didn't.
Fair enough, but that had already been covered before you entered the thread and I think the problem tends to be that people just tend to seesaw back and forth between different miscontrued interpretations when you start trying to put significance on what they did and didn't say.


Ignatz Mouse said:
Give the guy a break
No can do - not while there's any chance that his ill-conceived HL project had a negative effect on the development of my precious Warhawk. ;)
 

Ponn

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Mar 10, 2005
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davidjaffe said:
I hope this attitude changes. Sony Network Store is not a dumping ground for the 'not good enough' titles of the world. That's like saying THE SOPRANO'S wanted to be a movie but had to settle for HBO. Not saying all the games reflect that level yet-and that is OUR job to prove to you that downloadable games are JUST as good as retail games, just different- but I hope when we do start continually putting out games of a high quality that this view will change. And I can tell you, in Santa Monica we approach EVERY downloadable title we make with the same passion, love, and dedication to the craft as we do every full 60 buck retail product.

David
Or now mother fecking Song of Fire and Ice, yea baby!!
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
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davidjaffe said:
Wow! It seems like I have to explain stuff very carefully!
And I would like too, but again, it's not my place to go into the details.
Really, I mean,I do work for Sony, right?
How would you like it if someone who worked for you started spouting all the info?
And still, the thing to be aware of is that I don't lie.
While I may not be able to give away the details, what I said is accurate.
Killing titles is not something any company does lightly.
Lightly killing a game from a studio as experienced as Incog? That's even more rare.
I think you guys will be happy when you play the game in question tho.
Very happy.
Everyone should just move on to the next topic at hand.
Sheesh! Can't even say one word around these parts :)
LOL I see what you did there
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Jun 8, 2004
21,854
2
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beermonkey@tehbias said:
I just find it odd for a big budget game (again, hypothetically speaking) that was targeted for retail to end up launching on a download service.
Odd now, sure, but probably less so as time goes by.
 

plagiarize

Banned
May 24, 2006
41,133
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davidjaffe said:
I hope this attitude changes. Sony Network Store is not a dumping ground for the 'not good enough' titles of the world. That's like saying THE SOPRANO'S wanted to be a movie but had to settle for HBO. Not saying all the games reflect that level yet-and that is OUR job to prove to you that downloadable games are JUST as good as retail games, just different- but I hope when we do start continually putting out games of a high quality that this view will change. And I can tell you, in Santa Monica we approach EVERY downloadable title we make with the same passion, love, and dedication to the craft as we do every full 60 buck retail product.

David
great post.

i had half typed up something along these lines about sam and max ending up as an episodic series instead of a game in stores... but it just wasn't jiving well enough. mainly because i just started going on about how great sam and max is.
 

Beer Monkey

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plagiarize said:
i had half typed up something along these lines about sam and max ending up as an episodic series instead of a game in stores... but it just wasn't jiving well enough. mainly because i just started going on about how great sam and max is.
I thought the Telltale Sam & Max was developed as download/episodic from the beginning? I know that the Lucasarts game was going to be retail, but that game was scrapped and Telltale had to start over.

Anyhow, agreed, the new Sam & Max is excellent.
 

Westonian

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Jul 11, 2005
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For the last damn time: the title of this thread is retarded. The rumor was never that Warhawk was canceled or ever even considered for cancellation. There were cost overruns and too many scrapped ideas, so instead of spending even more money to salvage the full game, it is now being stripped down and released on the PSN.

Rather than simply reading the title of the thread people should read the actual article.
 

plagiarize

Banned
May 24, 2006
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beermonkey@tehbias said:
I thought the Telltale Sam & Max was developed as download/episodic from the beginning? I know that the Lucasarts game was going to be retail, but that game was scrapped and Telltale had to start over.

Anyhow, agreed, the new Sam & Max is excellent.
well that's part of the reason that Jaffe's post was better than the one i abandoned.

Lucasarts canned Freelance Police because they didn't think it would make back at retail would it would cost to put it out there. They then fired the whole sam and max team.

Most of that team then formed Telltale, so it's the same people making it... hence the box in the office with the date of Freelance Police's cancellation and jokes about internet petitions. They did indeed have to start from scratch though.
 

Groovester

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Mar 29, 2006
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I think what people are expressing when they see that it'll come out on the PSN is that it won't be the full game like they hoped for. A few levels is sort of a teaser for what could have been. I'm still looking forward to playing it!
 

Jeff-DSA

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Feb 14, 2005
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Westonian said:
For the last damn time: the title of this thread is retarded. The rumor was never that Warhawk was canceled or ever even considered for cancellation. There were cost overruns and too many scrapped ideas, so instead of spending even more money to salvage the full game, it is now being stripped down and released on the PSN.

Rather than simply reading the title of the thread people should read the actual article.
Quoted for grooviness.

C'mon people, nothing was ever claimed to be canceled. The project is being moved to PSN, NOT CANCELED.
 

Haunted

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Nov 16, 2006
78,207
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davidjaffe said:
Wow! It seems like I have to explain stuff very carefully!
And I would like too, but again, it's not my place to go into the details.
Really, I mean,I do work for Sony, right?
How would you like it if someone who worked for you started spouting all the info?
And still, the thing to be aware of is that I don't lie.
While I may not be able to give away the details, what I said is accurate.
Killing titles is not something any company does lightly.
Lightly killing a game from a studio as experienced as Incog? That's even more rare.
I think you guys will be happy when you play the game in question tho.
Very happy.
Everyone should just move on to the next topic at hand.
Sheesh! Can't even say one word around these parts :)
very nice! :lol
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Jun 30, 2004
9,418
24
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51
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davidjaffe said:
Wow! It seems like I have to explain stuff very carefully!
And I would like too, but again, it's not my place to go into the details.
Really, I mean,I do work for Sony, right?
How would you like it if someone who worked for you started spouting all the info?
And still, the thing to be aware of is that I don't lie.
While I may not be able to give away the details, what I said is accurate.
Killing titles is not something any company does lightly.
Lightly killing a game from a studio as experienced as Incog? That's even more rare.
I think you guys will be happy when you play the game in question tho.
Very happy.
Everyone should just move on to the next topic at hand.
Sheesh! Can't even say one word around these parts :)

*swoon*
 
May 19, 2006
2,228
0
0
Westonian said:
For the last damn time: the title of this thread is retarded. The rumor was never that Warhawk was canceled or ever even considered for cancellation. There were cost overruns and too many scrapped ideas, so instead of spending even more money to salvage the full game, it is now being stripped down and released on the PSN.

Rather than simply reading the title of the thread people should read the actual article.
The conotation of the article is negative. It implies that the game is in DIRE TROUBLE and is in danger of being canceled. When in fact, it seems that it might be just changing the form it arrives in. I believe what got people upset was the idea that the game might be scrapped altogether, as is implied in the rumorreport article.
 

Luckyman

Banned
Apr 30, 2006
4,688
0
0
The rumors are false. We're still in development with the same team at Incognito and we're excited to show the progress of the game to media within the next month or so. At the same time, we'll be able to confirm an updated release date, too."
Gamers day confirmed?
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
45,114
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davidjaffe said:
I hope this attitude changes. Sony Network Store is not a dumping ground for the 'not good enough' titles of the world. That's like saying THE SOPRANO'S wanted to be a movie but had to settle for HBO. Not saying all the games reflect that level yet-and that is OUR job to prove to you that downloadable games are JUST as good as retail games, just different- but I hope when we do start continually putting out games of a high quality that this view will change. And I can tell you, in Santa Monica we approach EVERY downloadable title we make with the same passion, love, and dedication to the craft as we do every full 60 buck retail product.

David

I agree Jaffe. And most people are recognizing that the Playstation store is very good when it comes to orignal downloadable games.

One thing I have to so though is this. If you guys (SCEWWS I think the name is) can put up a good number of PSN orginal titles like you do retail games and after time 3rd parties follow you can make PSN, HBO like.

It's like straight to video movies or shows like The Wire or Sopranos like you said. That would be HUGE!!!

Do you get a feeling that this is what Phil wants the Playstation store to be like?
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
45,114
9,915
1,960
davidjaffe said:
Wow! It seems like I have to explain stuff very carefully!
And I would like too, but again, it's not my place to go into the details.
Really, I mean,I do work for Sony, right?
How would you like it if someone who worked for you started spouting all the info?
And still, the thing to be aware of is that I don't lie.
While I may not be able to give away the details, what I said is accurate.
Killing titles is not something any company does lightly.
Lightly killing a game from a studio as experienced as Incog? That's even more rare.
I think you guys will be happy when you play the game in question tho.
Very happy.
Everyone should just move on to the next topic at hand.
Sheesh! Can't even say one word around these parts :)

Why is everybody laughing and saying things like "I see what you did there" at this post?

Is there something that I don't get? Is my sarcasm meter broken? GAF what are you smiling and laughing at?
 

Ceb

Member
Jul 8, 2004
4,894
1
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mckmas8808 said:
Why is everybody laughing and saying things like "I see what you did there" at this post?

Is there something that I don't get? Is my sarcasm meter broken? GAF what are you smiling and laughing at?
Read the first letter of each sentence.
 

Hunahan

Banned
Sep 22, 2006
2,429
0
0
davidjaffe said:
And only four levels? Dude, it's a sub 10 dollar game and every level plays differently and I promise, if you like the game, you will feel you are getting your money's worth. We are not cheating anyone; but we are making a game designed to feel like BOMBERMAN and NBA JAM and NFL BLITZ...no one asks for 30 levels from those games...and hell, back in the day, those games cost 49.99 like everything else...I'm not bitching at you but I am interested in if gamer's are expecting full blown blu ray sized games for 10 bucks versus more arcade scoped titles (which is what we are making).
Don't know if you are honestly looking for feedback here, but yeah, I think 10 bucks is too much to play a retro-arcade styled game. The thing about the arcade game comparison is that there were two options back then: $50 bucks for a full game, or 25 cents for a single play. With most of those type of games, like NBA Jam and things you have listed, I'd usually just stop by the arcade a few times, maybe spend a grand total of $2.00 on the game in question, and be moved on to something else. With the "virtual arcade" idea, it's 10 dollars or nothing, which is a contrast.

At that level of cost, the buyer needs to play the game 40 times for it to equal out to a real arcade's pricing, which with some of these games is really stretching things.

Now if there was an option to simply play the game once or twice for under a dollar, I think that an alternative higher purchasing price is entirely fine. But if you are looking to replicate an arcade atmosphere, grabbing a buddy over to your house and playing a couple simple games once or twice each to kill some time, then asking for ten dollars up front on every game seems a bit steep. I know it's stopped me quite a few times from diving into XBLA games, which share a similar pricing structure.

Also, 10 dollars puts the price above a rental for a retail game. So for less money, you could go through, say, God Of War II instead of Calling All Cars. So it does put these games into competition with blu-ray games on some level, which is a hard fight for them to make.

I know that neither of these is a direct 1-to-1 relationship, since in neither alternative do you actually own the game after playing it, but let's be honest - most of these arcade games aren't going to really be the types of things that people are playing for months on end either way.

Anyways, I'm sure you know what you're doing more than I would, but that's just my two cents....or twenty five, if you will.... on the matter.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Sep 5, 2004
66,970
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Arakeen
Hunahan said:
Don't know if you are honestly looking for feedback here, but yeah, I think 10 bucks is too much to play a retro-arcade styled game. .

Geometry Wars and Zuma say "hi."

If the game is fun, you're going to get a lot more than $10 worth of entertainment out of it. best I can tell, Mr. Jaffe makes very fun games. I'm in for $10 US easily.

Plus you can always download a demo and get your $2 fix for free, right?