Hillary and Haiti

[spiderman123]

I live in the Caribbean and been doing some social work in Haiti and Haitians seem to have a genuine dislike for Clinton. Now I am not going to say all Haitians but the ones I have interacted with.

Many of them seemingly support Trump and who can blame them after Clinton's (Bill) policies which practically destroyed their farming industry and his role in the coup attempts. Some have even accused Hilary economic of interference (wage setting, don't know how true that is).

It is dis-heartening to hear there stories especially as a volunteer but what can you say to people who have been the recipients of terrible policy making by the former Clinton administration. Personally, I don't support trump but what can you say to these people in cases such as these.

Articles to read
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/us/politics/hillary-clinton-haiti.html?_r=0

http://www.alternet.org/world/how-america-and-rest-world-ruined-haiti

 

[Mammoth Jones]

My soon to be brother in law is from Haiti and had nothing but bad things to say about the Clintons. Basically said they pretended to do relief efforts but really a proxy to suck money out of their economy.

 

[Trojita]

I'm glad they can't vote in our elections?

 

[jack_package_200]

I'm glad they can't vote in our elections?

Its a shame Hillary lost Haiti in GE

 

[phazedplasma]

That VICE special they did on Haiti was disgusting.

almost everyone went in there to try and help rebuild basically just made as much $ they could and left everyone high and dry.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I'm glad they can't vote in our elections?

Its a shame Hillary lost Haiti in GE

You guys should read the article. Specifically this passage:

After Mrs. Clinton declared her candidacy for president of the United States, calls began coming in to Mr. Andre’s radio show, like one in June in which a woman lamented that she and her late father had been supporters of The Clintons and had donated money to help elect each to office. “When they did good things, we should applaud,” the woman said in Haitian Creole. “But when they do bad things, we should denounce them because it is not good. And Hillary Clinton is not good.”

 

[platakul]

It's cool. No one cares about Hillary's foreign policy

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Someone should tell them Trump and his supporters probably dislike them.

 

[hawk2025]

That's nuts.

The presence of the Clinton Foundation in Haiti is an overwhelming net positive. The country was in deep, deep trouble and continues to be, especially in the aftermath of the earthquake. The disappointment (and the NYT article largely says as much) is that the numbers the Foundation spent on Haiti are lower than what was promised, and there was (rightful) suspicion at how contracts were allocated.

But they've put donated money into education, exports, small business, the works. This backlash is quite sad. I've seen little to no concrete evidence that their philanthropic work in Haiti has been negative. The hard, solid data shows a lot of money going in, and a lot of *direct* human capital investment being made by the Clintons in Haiti.

The numbers are clearly positive. The negatives are all conjecture, rumors, and as is typical with the Clintons, bad optics with zero proof.

 

[SilentRacoon]

I'm glad they can't vote in our elections?

No one gives a shit about them right? SMH

Really what an insensitive thing to say.

 

[spiderman123]

That's nuts.

The presence of the Clinton Foundation in Haiti is an overwhelming net positive.

Its true they have a presence, when we had the interactions with other volunteers there but the information and feelings on the ground seems to be mixed. I really have nothing to do with the Clinton foundation (ours is CARICOM oriented) but I sincerely hope they are doing good.

 

[cheezcake]

That's nuts.

The presence of the Clinton Foundation in Haiti is an overwhelming net positive. The country was in deep, deep trouble and continues to be, especially in the aftermath of the earthquake. The disappointment (and the NYT article largely says as much) is that the numbers the Foundation spent on Haiti are lower than what was promised, and there was (rightful) suspicion at how contracts were allocated.

But they've put donated money into education, exports, small business, the works. This backlash is quite sad. I've seen little to no concrete evidence that their philanthropic work in Haiti has been negative.

I don't think it's the Clinton foundation but more this that lead to their dislike.

http://www.politifact.com/global-news/statements/2016/apr/21/lee-camp/did-hillary-clintons-state-department-help-suppres/

 

[jack_package_200]

That's nuts.

The presence of the Clinton Foundation in Haiti is an overwhelming net positive. The country was in deep, deep trouble and continues to be, especially in the aftermath of the earthquake. The disappointment (and the NYT article largely says as much) is that the numbers the Foundation spent on Haiti are lower than what was promised, and there was (rightful) suspicion at how contracts were allocated.

But they've put donated money into education, exports, small business, the works. This backlash is quite sad. I've seen little to no concrete evidence that their philanthropic work in Haiti has been negative. The hard, solid data shows a lot of money going in, and a lot of *direct* human capital investment being made by the Clintons in Haiti.

The numbers are clearly positive. The negatives are all conjecture, rumors, and as is typical with the Clintons, bad optics with zero proof.

All of this

 

[soco]

My soon to be brother in law is from Haiti and had nothing but bad things to say about the Clintons. Basically said they pretended to do relief efforts but really a proxy to suck money out of their economy.

I think that's just part of American foreign policy since at least the 70s. Various nationalities just notice it when X president directs it their way.

 

[hawk2025]

Its true they have a presence, when we had the interactions with other volunteers there but the information and feelings on the ground seems to be mixed. I really have nothing to do with the Clinton foundation (ours is CARICOM oriented) but I sincerely hope they are doing good.

They have a large presence that has reorganized several education, artisan and agricultural areas into being more productive. The net value of money going in is in the hundreds of millions. All this information is public, since the Clinton Foundation is a non-profit that publishes their numbers.

I understand that the feelings on the ground are mixed (I've heard this multiple times, so I'm sure it's true), I just haven't seen any actual evidence of a net negative effect. Like I said above, the Clintons always trip over themselves with bad optics, and it unfortunately gets mixed up with the great work of the Foundation.

 

[chertipros]

I Am Haitian. Can confirm people from there hate the Clintons, and for good reason.

 

[cheezcake]

Do people here really not know about the allegations made against Clintons state department in relation to blocking Haiti's proposed min wage increases?

 

[antonz]

They have a large presence that has reorganized several education, artisan and agricultural areas into being more productive. The net value of money going in is in the hundreds of millions. All this information is public, since the Clinton Foundation is a non-profit that publishes their numbers.

I understand that the feelings on the ground are mixed (I've heard this multiple times, so I'm sure it's true), I just haven't seen any actual evidence of a net negative effect. Like I said above, the Clintons always trip over themselves with bad optics, and it unfortunately gets mixed up with the great work of the Foundation.

A lot of it comes down to how they choose to do their good deeds. Most of the time it ends up enriching friends and families. So yes while good was done it could have been done in ways to benefit the locals instead of enriching friends. That seems to be a universal issue with the Clinton foundation though

 

[hawk2025]

A lot of it comes down to how the choose to do their good deeds. Most of the time it ends up enriching friends and families. So yes while good was done it could have been done in ways to benefit the locals instead of enriching friends. That seems to be a universal issue with the Clinton foundation though

It did benefit the locals. Overwhelmingly so. I don't think it's fair at all to say that most of the time it ends up enriching friends and families. The Clinton Foundation has basically three main controversies: The appointment of her brother to the board of a company in Haiti, the appointment of a donor to the ISAB (a donor that WAS qualified, by the way) and receiving money from foreign interests. The thurd has *zero* evidence of wrong doing, and as a global foundation it should welcome multimillion dollar donations from rich people. All of this information is public.

I won't defend the optics of appointments to boards of companies in markets I don't understand, though -- but obviously that looks terrible. How much control the two even have over something like this, I have no idea.

The Foundation is inevitably controversial because they are controversial figures. But I really invite everyone to actually read the financial reports and look at all the programs they've put money in around the world, rather than just the handful of controversial cases that always pop up.

The Clintons have done more directly to study and fight global warming than nearly anyone in the world IMO.

 

[dave is ok]

That VICE special they did on Haiti was disgusting.

almost everyone went in there to try and help rebuild basically just made as much $ they could and left everyone high and dry.

Some of the things referred to in that special were Clinton Foundation projects.

 

[solomon]

Yeah my aunt is sitting out this election she can't stand trump but can't bring herself to vote for Hillary, what they've done to that country is unforgivable. I'm still voting Hillary since I put America before Haiti but I can see why some Haitians are sitting this one out.

 

[royalan]

That's nuts.

The presence of the Clinton Foundation in Haiti is an overwhelming net positive. The country was in deep, deep trouble and continues to be, especially in the aftermath of the earthquake. The disappointment (and the NYT article largely says as much) is that the numbers the Foundation spent on Haiti are lower than what was promised, and there was (rightful) suspicion at how contracts were allocated.

But they've put donated money into education, exports, small business, the works. This backlash is quite sad. I've seen little to no concrete evidence that their philanthropic work in Haiti has been negative. The hard, solid data shows a lot of money going in, and a lot of *direct* human capital investment being made by the Clintons in Haiti.

The numbers are clearly positive. The negatives are all conjecture, rumors, and as is typical with the Clintons, bad optics with zero proof.

Yep.

I won't claim to be an expert on the subject, but the reading I did about a year ago suggested that there was a lot of confusion over how the relief funds were allocated...which of course easily lends itself to a "CORRUPTION!!!" narrative.

Not just the Clintons, but I get the impression that several bodies went into Haiti with the intent to do good, but there wasn't a good network set up to properly funnel aid.

And then, you know, Hillary.

 

[kirblar]

Yep.

I won't claim to be an expert on the subject, but the reading I did about a year ago suggested that there was a lot of confusion over how the relief funds were allocated...which of course easily lends itself to a "CORRUPTION!!!" narrative.

Not just the Clintons, but I get the impression that several bodies went into Haiti with the intent to do good, but there wasn't a good network set up to properly funnel aid.

And then, you know, Hillary.

That's usually a issue with aid in general, tons gets soaked up by bad actors, the RoI is bad, but u know that going in.

 

[Elchele]

Doubt anyone in Latin America has anything positive to say about the Clintons

 

[cyborg009]

As a Haitian, living in Miami yes a lot of Haitians hate the Clinton. The stuff about the farming industry really ruined relations.

 

[dave is ok]

So much dismissing the horrible shit done to Haiti as some sort of good intentioned mistake.

It wasn't a mistake. They wanted a new place to open up shop for cheap labor and the earthquake let them do it in Haiti.

In 2012, then U.S. secretary of State Hillary Clinton — along with Bill Clinton, who was the UN special envoy to Haiti — oversaw the official opening of Caracol. The industrial park was financed by $224 million US in subsidies from mostly American partners. The factory zone was estimated to provide upward of 60,000 jobs. The biggest employer at the park is Sae-A, a Korean clothing manufacturer that supplies major U.S. retailers like Walmart, the Gap and Old Navy.

"What is happening here in Caracol is already having ripple effects that will create jobs and opportunities far beyond this industrial park," Hillary Clinton said at the opening ceremony, which included film stars Sean Penn and Ben Stiller among its guests.

But in the post-earthquake urgency to get the industrial park open, 450 farmers who relied on the land for subsistence had to be removed from their fertile plots. Some were only given five days' notice before the bulldozers moved in to clear the land on the one-year anniversary of the earthquake.

"It is one of the most heart-wrenching stories you can hear," says Kysseline Chérestal, a Haitian-American lawyer who works for ActionAid, an organization working to end poverty and improve human rights. She and her team interviewed about 150 of the farmers since their displacement.

"I don't mean to be dramatic, but from the perspective of an individual life, it's a horrific situation."

Sae-A currently employs just over 5,000 factory workers — mostly women under age 30 — at minimum wage, which is roughly $5 US per day. Chérestal says a living wage that would provide three square meals a day in Haiti would be at least double that.

The entire Caracol Industrial Park currently employs 5,500 people — far short of the original goal.

 

[hawk2025]

I strongly suggest reading the independent audit of the foundation:


https://www.clintonfoundation.org/sites/default/files/clinton_foundation_report_public_11-19-14.pdf


All this information is public.

 

[royalan]

So much dismissing the horrible shit done to Haiti as some sort of good intentioned mistake.

It wasn't a mistake. They wanted a new place to open up shop for cheap labor and the earthquake let them do it in Haiti.

This doesn't make any sense. To what end? What would this accomplish, and how would this benefit the Clintons?

The thing most entertaining about these Clinton villain conspiracies is that they paint Hillary as the sole mastermind of all these nefarious plots...as she was working as SoS for another man's administration.

 

[hawk2025]

So much dismissing the horrible shit done to Haiti as some sort of good intentioned mistake.

It wasn't a mistake. They wanted a new place to open up shop for cheap labor and the earthquake let them do it in Haiti.

Why?

What would be the reason? What do they get out of it?

 

[Bloomers]

Coming from a Haitian family, yeah the Clintons do NOT have a good rep at all. Between HRC and Trump, this election has been something like poison for my parents.

 

[Spinluck]

This is news to me.

 

[dave is ok]

This doesn't make any sense. To what end? What would this accomplish, and how would this benefit the Clintons?

This thing most entertaining about these Clinton villain conspiracies is that they paint Hillary as the sole mastermind of all these nefarious plots...as she was working as SoS for another man's administration.

Why?

What would be the reason? What do they get out of it?

Well according to the PR speak from the audit someone just posted, they're "creating sustainable economic growth in... apparel/manufacturing."

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

They have a large presence that has reorganized several education, artisan and agricultural areas into being more productive. The net value of money going in is in the hundreds of millions. All this information is public, since the Clinton Foundation is a non-profit that publishes their numbers.

I understand that the feelings on the ground are mixed (I've heard this multiple times, so I'm sure it's true), I just haven't seen any actual evidence of a net negative effect. Like I said above, the Clintons always trip over themselves with bad optics, and it unfortunately gets mixed up with the great work of the Foundation.

Politcos piece on Haiti makes it sound worse than what you're describing;

Hillary Clinton once hoped that Haiti would be the shining jewel of her foreign policy. But far from transforming this poorest of countries, many of the Clintons’ grandest plans and promises remain little more than small pilot projects—a new set of basketball hoops and a model elementary school here, a functioning factory there—that have done little to alter radically the trajectory of the country. Visiting some of their projects over the course of an April research trip affirmed as much about their tenuousness as about the limited benefits they’ve provided. Many of the most notable investments the Clintons helped launch, such as the new Marriott in the capital, have primarily benefited wealthy foreigners and island’s ruling elite, who needed little help to begin with.

Even for those who know how Haiti operates, there are many more questions than answers when one examines the Clintons’ recent work. Did Hillary Clinton keep her promise when she said, soon after taking office at State, that “we will demonstrate to ourselves as well as to the people of Haiti and far beyond that we can, working together, make a significant difference”?


Five years after her husband pledged to Esquire magazine that he was “prepared to spend three years” helping Haitians get “the right things for their country,” what does it mean that the vast majority of Haitians still haven’t gotten much of anywhere?

( http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/clinton-foundation-haiti-117368 )


Christoper Hitchens was not a fan of the Clintons, nor the foundations and back in 08 election he made numerous articles seemingly questioning the foundations motivations; http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2009/01/more_than_a_good_feeling.html

 

[hawk2025]

Well according to the PR speak from the audit someone just posted, they're "creating sustainable economic growth in... apparel/manufacturing."

I posted an independent audit from Price Waterhouse & Cooper.

Are they in on it?

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

I strongly suggest reading the independent audit of the foundation:


https://www.clintonfoundation.org/sites/default/files/clinton_foundation_report_public_11-19-14.pdf


All this information is public.

I'm sorry, but are you fucking joking? A Clinton Foundation led audit of the Clinton Foundation (formerly the Bush Clinton Haiti Fund), 'performed by PWC'.

..the SAME people who took all those mortgaged backed securities in 2004-2007 and rated them AAA - ratings paid for by the actual issuers of the toxic MBS. I wouldn't wipe my ass with a PWC audit.

This bullshit stinks to high heaven.

I posted an independent audit from Price Waterhouse & Cooper.

Are they in on it?

They are paid very very very good money to say whatever their clients want, and sound respectable while doing it.

 

[cheezcake]

I strongly suggest reading the independent audit of the foundation:


https://www.clintonfoundation.org/sites/default/files/clinton_foundation_report_public_11-19-14.pdf


All this information is public.

I think it's a little odd to just dump an audit of the Clinton foundation when we're talking about the reason for Haitians distrust of the Clinton family. Take a read through this:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/clinton-foundation-haiti-117368

From what I gathered I don't think there's any Clinton conspiracy to keep the poor Haitians down but it is also incredibly easy to see why the Haitian people have an incredible dislike of the Clinton family. Meddling in their politics to such an extent that the Clintons practically chose their president, who turned out to be corrupt and vile scum that set their country back years and left them in political turmoil. A huge number of great projects and promises, almost all of which failed to deliver. The backing of a couple tone deaf projects. It's very easy to understand where the people of Haiti are coming from.

 

[Coreda]

Heard a recording a while ago of a Haitian Uber driver who talked about Clinton's brother getting a mining contract there, thousands still living in tents, anyone planning an uprising getting 'taken out', and some native blood pressure regulating plant called 'Zanman' (?) which he claimed was once cultivated and widely used until they were replaced with genetically modified and ineffective versions. Didn't sound too pleased.

 

[hawk2025]

I'm sorry, but are you fucking joking? A Clinton Foundation led audit of the Clinton Foundation (formerly the Bush Clinton Haiti Fund), 'performed by PWC'.

..the SAME people who took all those mortgaged backed securities in 2004-2007 and rated them AAA - ratings paid for by the actual issuers of the toxic MBS. I wouldn't wipe my ass with a PWC audit.

This bullshit stinks to high heaven.

Alright, I'm out of this discussion.

At least fucking google when the Clinton Foundation started.

 

[midramble]

I feel this is a result of high officials micro managing aid. Either from the civilian or military side this happens. Some general or politician gets visited by the idea fairy and thinks they have The solution for a particular problem and force it on their lower departments whether the departments see it as the best solution or not.

These higher ups see it as acting fast, and "getting it done" because aid is a slow arduous process that, when it takes too long, tends to rot in planning phases due to budget timing complications.

The thought process was probably...

1) They need better economy so they can help themselves
2) Build industrial complex so they have the tools to do so
3) Complex building will also give money to contract workers (two birds one stone)
4) ....
5) Haitians profit

In reality, the aid groups were probably seeing the repercussions of such an aggressive and simple strategy, such as edging out agriculture, local inflation through native contracting, and other complications.

This sadly seems to happen a lot with disaster relief because politicians need to do something fast or the stink comes faster. These rushed jobs never doing that great. As a result, we did.... something... but the results left a lot of people hanging with half done measures, because once the US public stops caring, relief funds flow a lot slower, and we leave before the job is done.

So they are justified in their anger. On the other hand, Trump is not a better pick.

Spoiler

Lot of "probably" and benefits of the doubt, but this is just what I've seen from my work with USAID, Army aid, and other organizations attempting to make a country sustainable.

 

[Eila]

Doubt anyone in Latin America has anything positive to say about the Clintons

She's not Trump is a positive thing?
What's funny and hardly gets mentioned is she voted in favor of the already existing fence in the Mexican-US border.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/apr/22/haiti-aid

This is an international scandal that the wealthy west has overlooked for years.

 

[FeenixRising]

Doubt anyone in Latin America has anything positive to say about the Clintons

I have a Mexican friend who absolutely despises Hilary Clinton. Even before her candidacy began every time she is mentioned he's like "Fuck her!"

Now he's stuck between a rock and a hard place because he hates Trump, but loathes Hillary.

Now my about my family... my mother is Haitian. Can't say she's a huge Hillary fan either but she already made it known she's voting for her because she hates the mere thought of a Trump presidency.

 

[Byakuya769]

I'm sorry, but are you fucking joking? A Clinton Foundation led audit of the Clinton Foundation (formerly the Bush Clinton Haiti Fund), 'performed by PWC'.

..the SAME people who took all those mortgaged backed securities in 2004-2007 and rated them AAA - ratings paid for by the actual issuers of the toxic MBS. I wouldn't wipe my ass with a PWC audit.

This bullshit stinks to high heaven.



They are paid very very very good money to say whatever their clients want, and sound respectable while doing it.

PwC gives out securities ratings now? That's interesting.

 

[JinjoUnchained]

Coming from a Haitian family, yeah the Clintons do NOT have a good rep at all. Between HRC and Trump, this election has been something like poison for my parents.

I have a Mexican friend who absolutely despises Hilary Clinton. Even before her candidacy began every time she is mentioned he's like "Fuck her!"

Now he's stuck between a rock and a hard place because he hates Trump, but loathes Hillary.

Now my about my family... my mother is Haitian. Can't say she's a huge Hillary fan either but she already made it known she's voting for her because she hates the mere thought of a Trump presidency.

If only we had other choices on the ballot besides the two major party candidates, Oh wait.

 

[kame-sennin]

This doesn't make any sense. To what end? What would this accomplish, and how would this benefit the Clintons?

The same way de-regulating Wall Street or dismantling Welfare or instituting any other capitalist, neo-liberal policy would, I would imagine.

 

[StoOgE]

Honestly,

It's a corrupt as fuck country that has rotted out from the inside and when aid tried to get their after the earthquake much of it wound up in the hands of already corrupt officials. This is not unique to Haiti. Sadly most countries that need aid don't have the apparatus or infrastructure (or effective local, regional or national governments) to apply the aid as it is intended to be.

There is a lot of conspiracy led shit in this thread with half formed ideas. Price Waterhouse Coopers is an accounting firm that audits financials. PWC the gold standard of the Big 4. They do not give out security rankings.

Any ideas that the Clintons were targeting Haiti in order to get cheap labor (to what end) or cash money (they have plenty) is asinine.

So, they set up a global foundation with the sole intention of taking money from bad countries to line their own pocketbooks and fuck over the countries they are there to "help" for cheap labor? Are they Bond villians now? Part of the New World Order out to destabilize the world so that giant mega corporations can take everything and then go back to their volcano base and laugh at how good a job they are all doing?

 

[DOWN]

Politcos piece on Haiti makes it sound worse than what you're describing;




( http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/05/clinton-foundation-haiti-117368 )


Christoper Hitchens was not a fan of the Clintons, nor the foundations and back in 08 election he made numerous articles seemingly questioning the foundations motivations; http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2009/01/more_than_a_good_feeling.html

The initiatives in Haiti in general, not just by Clinton, were often geared toward getting foreign companies who could afford to create jobs there to do so fast. Sure, the investors have to benefit, but the fact is that it was trying to turn around a literally ruined country.

 

[Africanus]

If only we had other choices on the ballot besides the two major party candidates, Oh wait.

If there are any relevant 3rd party candidates now would be the time to speak up.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

If only we had other choices on the ballot besides the two major party candidates, Oh wait.

We don't at the presidential level. The structure of the presidential election and the Electoral College does not allow 3 viable parties to compete.

 

[talisayNon]

its overlooked because its not wyclef jean..
wonder why that is doh...