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Horizon Forbidden West has a stunningly low amount of agency

Vick

Member
I think reviewers have gotten way too complacent this gen. Last gen started out with critics rating games very harshly. KZSF topped out at 70 because it felt like a retread. Ryse sucked ass and was awarded a disastrous metacrtic average in the low 60s. DriveClub topped out at 70. Perhaps unfairly. The Order was destroyed by the critics, and rightfully so. Even Destiny was harshly judged and got a 76 IIRC. It wasnt until Bloodborne in 2015 that critics finally started handing out high 80s and 90+ scores.

Even good games like Infamous Second Son topped out at 80 which is where this game probably should reside. it's not a bad game. it's just more of the same, and not all of it is necessarily better. Just like Infamous Second Son. Ratchet, Halo Infinite, and Horizon getting 88s and 89s is bizarre to say the least. These games are good, but should be in low 80s at best. Probably lower seeing as how they bring absolutely nothing new to the next gen.

You've got Elden Rings posting 97 metacritic even though its basically Dark Souls set in the open world. It doesnt feel as handcrafted as Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 felt where every encounter felt meticulously designed. Now you just run into random encounters in the open world against enemies who are just there as fodder. Is this what critics want nowadays?

I see Forza Horizon's score and im like more of the same is worth 93 now? No wonder Elden Ring got a 97 because at least they took the series open world when it was linear before. Horizon Forbidden West is objectively worse in several key areas like combat, platforming, story, polish, and maybe even level design. It is objectively better in storytelling, visuals and production values, but those things are just salad dressing. The meat of the game is worse, and the critics got bamboozled by fancy cutscene graphics and dialogue options that literally go nowhere. They dont make the missions any different. They dont offer you more choices to role play as Aloy. The actual playing of the game is a worse experience which after a 5 years gap should not result in the same metacritic score. Standards must be higher in 2022.

I would love to do polls on whether or not Ratchet Rift Apart is the best Ratchet game. Same for whether or not Elden Rings is the best souls game. I know everyone loves the game here, but Bloodborne is simply a better crafted souls game. Same with halo infinite. So if these games arent even the better than previous entries that came out 7-10 years ago then why are they getting such high scores in 2022?
These are just your very personal opinions on such games though, not objective truths.

Are they worthier than others? Are the comments in the OT of people giving the game a 10/10 coming from morons?
Or all those who thought the game was much superior, night and day even, compared to the first one, just idiots blinded by "salad dressing"?

I remember reading you opinions about the game before getting it, about how impossible fighting a Thunderjaw was compared to the first one and how everyone would agree by the time they would fight one.
Well i fought my first one, at Very Hard and with no Reticle and with regular hunter bow only and had a blast. Was it challenging? Yes. Was it "impossible because by the time you aim after a dodge he's facing you already"? Not at all.

tassletine tassletine
Have you really played this game?
Your Aloy description feels off by country mile, hence my question.
 

Zimmy68

Member
Straight up, I've been avoiding finishing this game. One mission to go for over a week. It's just such....a......slog.

Don't get me wrong - it's gorgeous and striking and the story occasionally lands. But it's a gameplay loop of go here, talk to guy, kill machine or enemy, talk to guy again. Very little interactivity in the environment, very few choices to make about what to do, where to go. Fighting machines is similarly without agency, as it's basically a leveling game, with weapons that you just match up with weakness. The human combat is atrocious, with one or two useful combos, no shield, no parry, very little stealth.

There are just no meaningfully different ways to play these encounters. And there are SO MANY.

Some exceptions come to mind, like the stuff in Vegas, but overall, I find the whole experience alternately breathtaking.....and utterly boring.

Thoughts?
100% agree. I was so excited when it came out and then Elden Ring happened and I haven't touched it.
The thing that really killed it for me was its Assassin Creed Valhalla unruly and huge skill tree. I'm walking around with 15 skill points because I have no idea what to use them with and don't want to make a huge mistake.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
If anyone think that aloy being a cold, know it all, cunty bitch who has no time for tribe bullshits and take no shit from anyone is forced, the it's time to replay horizon 1 because you clearly don't understand context.

If there is a character in videogame history that has every fucking reason to act like that is aloy.
I would be even worse if i was her...

We can debate if it his pleasant to be her in the game etc, but that's another thing entirely.
 
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100% agree. I was so excited when it came out and then Elden Ring happened and I haven't touched it.
The thing that really killed it for me was its Assassin Creed Valhalla unruly and huge skill tree. I'm walking around with 15 skill points because I have no idea what to use them with and don't want to make a huge mistake.

I hate that I'm like that too. Usually with most games that have skill points. I end up hoarding them because i can't decide what to upgrade. Big ass skill trees make this even worse.
 

DForce

Member
Horizon Forbidden West is objectively worse in several key areas like combat, platforming, story, polish, and maybe even level design.

Here's the problem I have with this statement.

Many of the abilities in Horizon Zero Dawn were easy to exploit.

You can knock down small to medium-sized enemies with a near 100% success rate with just the heavy attack alone. You didn't have to charge the heavy attack, all you have to do is just press it once and keep spamming it if you're surrounded by a lot of enemies.

Not only that, the most powerful weapons in the game took very little resources to craft. There's also the best armor in the game that was so OP that they nerfed it in later patches, but it's still very powerful.

Objectively worse? I just don't see it. I think they balanced it way better in Horizon Forbidden West because there were far many things in Horizon Zero Dawn that were way too powerful.
 
Calm down.

Whenever someone says this they never really have a good reply or excuse to the nonsense they post. You're not making any sense now either. Consistency? It's a game my dude, not a documentary. Theres not a single game out there with above good story that does not have personalities based on human fucking beings. No such thing exists. You dont like Aloy because you're just some beta male and your female protagonist isnt the feminine/emotional kind that your deluded mind wants it to be but instead she grew and developed into a cold and calculated but good character as it was written from the very first game. There's absolutely no personality that you can give her that would not reflect any other human being real life so what the fuck are you talking about? She is written that way because that's the god damn lore. She is the clone of Sobeck, that's the story. I'll stop here. I'm talking to a wall.
 
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SlimySnake

Member
These are just your very personal opinions on such games though, not objective truths.

Are they worthier than others? Are the comments in the OT of people giving the game a 10/10 coming from morons?
Or all those who thought the game was much superior, night and day even, compared to the first one, just idiots blinded by "salad dressing"?

I remember reading you opinions about the game before getting it, about how impossible fighting a Thunderjaw was compared to the first one and how everyone would agree by the time they would fight one.
Well i fought my first one, at Very Hard and with no Reticle and with regular hunter bow only and had a blast. Was it challenging? Yes. Was it "impossible because by the time you aim after a dodge he's facing you already"? Not at all.

tassletine tassletine
Have you really played this game?
Your Aloy description feels off by country mile, hence my question.
I am pretty sure almost everyone agrees that the enemies are very aggressive and move around way too much in this game. The OT is full of people saying this.
 

Vick

Member
You dont like Aloy because you're just some beta male and your female protagonist isnt the feminine/emotional kind that your deluded mind wants it to be
The absurd thing is that she still is both those things in a shitton amount of occasions throught the game.
A much, much better developed and relatable and believable character than in the first game.

I am pretty sure almost everyone agrees that the enemies are very aggressive and move around way too much in this game. The OT is full of people saying this.
Maybe they are.. i mean, i started the game immediately after Frozen Wilds at Ultra Hard, and outside of the first encounters where one hit=dead, can't really say i noticed a difference. By the end i found the game much easier overall.

But even if they are faster/more aggressive, is this a fault, an objective issue with the game? Fuck no.
 
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Sygma

Member
I am pretty sure almost everyone agrees that the enemies are very aggressive and move around way too much in this game. The OT is full of people saying this.

Thats what happens when people don't know how to control a battlefield tho while having all the tools for it. Forbidden west plays more intricately but :

Valor and stamina systems are honestly trash, and adding more moves for the sake of it also doesn't give an impression of fluidity / reduces intuitive gameplay too much imho

Sure the traps and bombs are even more powerful than in the first game but still


As far as aloy not being emotional : THANK FUCK FOR THAT. Much more relatable for me to have a Mc thinking about things first and foremost. Having emotions at display for the sake of it removes what makes the expression of them meaningful, and I'm glad that they kept that as a key part of her personality
 
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The absurd thing is that she still is both those things in a shitton amount of occasions throught the game.
A much, much better developed and relatable and believable character than in the first game.

Yeah, when I wrote that I was referring to the exaggerated emotional kind of female characters, like Japanese ones. That's prolly more in line with his tastes. God forbid if a female protagonist in a fantasy/sci-fi world acts as one in real life...we can't have that in our games guys right? Jesus... I can pretty much guarantee you that this is why some gaffers don't like Aloy anymore but somehow loved her in Zero Dawn. Nonsense to me.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Here's the problem I have with this statement.

Many of the abilities in Horizon Zero Dawn were easy to exploit.

You can knock down small to medium-sized enemies with a near 100% success rate with just the heavy attack alone. You didn't have to charge the heavy attack, all you have to do is just press it once and keep spamming it if you're surrounded by a lot of enemies.

Not only that, the most powerful weapons in the game took very little resources to craft. There's also the best armor in the game that was so OP that they nerfed it in later patches, but it's still very powerful.

Objectively worse? I just don't see it. I think they balanced it way better in Horizon Forbidden West because there were far many things in Horizon Zero Dawn that were way too powerful.
I say objectively worse in the sense that platforming is simply way too glitchy and janky. Game feels very janky overall. Way too many bugs for a Sony first party game. Performance mode is trash. Fidelity mode was such an eyesore they ended up downgrading it to ensure it didnt cause eye strain. Stuff that shouldve been found in playtesting. Storytelling is better, but story overall isnt. Aloy has a shit arc compared to the phenomenal personal adventure and growth she had in the first game. The villains are underdeveloped which is crazy considering the lengths they went to make us hate Ted Faro just by using holograms in the first game. Level design is mostly the same, but they force platforming and puzzles in them both of which are simply worse than the first game and bring down the overall quality of the campaign.

Combat is way too frustrating with enemies being more aggressive on Normal than they were in Ultra Hard NG+ mode they patched later in HZD to give players more challenge. The biggest change in combat was making your arrows do 1 damage if they dont hit weakpoints, and that has made combat feel simply worse. Is it more balanced? Maybe. Does it make combat feel better? Not even close.

The armor you are talking about cannot be earned until pretty much the end of the game. The final piece is in the second to last story mission. Yes, it breaks the post game activities, and maybe NG+ but NG was fine. DLC introduced elemental enemies that rendered that armor useless anyway.

I think the problem is that they simply NAILED the first game. it was as good as Horizon can be. It didnt need a big jump like Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 2 because they already launched at uncharted 2 quality. So what do they do? They start tinkering with the combat and platforming without really overhauling their engine to incorporate next gen tech like they shouldve. They HAD to make it different, but just like GOW Ascension, different doesnt always translate to better. A lot of the changes are for the worse. No one asked for dozens of variants for the same weapons nor did they ask for weakpoint only combat. But they couldnt add anything major due to last gen limitations so they ended up just changing things. And not always for the better.

I hope we see Avatar this year because that is a game that is really taking advantage of the SSD to enable really fast air traversal along with enhanced wildlife AI causing stampedes, destruction and interactivity. It likely wont have combat as good as Horizon, but it should give us an idea of what next gen tech can do to offer agency in combat scenarios.
 

Vick

Member
The biggest change in combat was making your arrows do 1 damage if they dont hit weakpoints, and that has made combat feel simply worse.
You do 1 damage (not even true, was 4-5-6 or more for me depending on the weapon/arrow) only when you hit the armored pieces on the machines.
Which makes all the sense in the world giving you're fighting AI engineered super advanced robots with frigging arrows.

Just remove those parts to do proper damage on the softer body beneath, or aim somewhere else.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
I must be the only one who like having enemies that pose a real danger and they don't stay still to be hit by the player.

The game still has a lot of explosive weapons for people with shit aim and no patience, use that folks.
 

SlimySnake

Member
As far as aloy not being emotional : THANK FUCK FOR THAT. Much more relatable for me to have a Mc thinking about things first and foremost. Having emotions at display for the sake of it removes what makes the expression of them meaningful, and I'm glad that they kept that as a key part of her personality
I dont want her to be emotional. I want her to have an arc. What is her arc in this game? In the first game, she has a personal quest to find out her mother's identity along with the bigger save the universe scenario. She also slowly grows from an outcast into a confident young savior bending kings to her will. I am struggling to see what she learned in this game.

The lesbian romance of Tilda and Elizabeth Zoebeck felt tacked on and made me roll my eyes, but in all honesty, the final twist of Tilda having feelings for Aloy was not really that bad. They shouldve played that up as a conflict for Aloy by having her fall in love with Tilda, and then having to choose between her and saving the world. Tilda shouldve been introduced way sooner and the romance shouldve been explored. her choices are pretty clear cut. There is no conflict. All she has is bad guys in front of her who she has to beat. Varl dies not because of her selfishness or narrowminded focus or anything that has anything to do with Aloy. he just dies for no reason. At least, Rost died saving her and that sent her on a quest to kill that bad guy.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
I dont want her to be emotional. I want her to have an arc. What is her arc in this game? In the first game, she has a personal quest to find out her mother's identity along with the bigger save the universe scenario. She also slowly grows from an outcast into a confident young savior bending kings to her will. I am struggling to see what she learned in this game.

The lesbian romance of Tilda and Elizabeth Zoebeck felt tacked on and made me roll my eyes, but in all honesty, the final twist of Tilda having feelings for Aloy was not really that bad. They shouldve played that up as a conflict for Aloy by having her fall in love with Tilda, and then having to choose between her and saving the world. Tilda shouldve been introduced way sooner and the romance shouldve been explored. her choices are pretty clear cut. There is no conflict. All she has is bad guys in front of her who she has to beat. Varl dies not because of her selfishness or narrowminded focus or anything that has anything to do with Aloy. he just dies for no reason. At least, Rost died saving her and that sent her on a quest to kill that bad guy.
Her arc is that she trust people to help her now, isn't enough?? if you can't see the difference between how the game start, and the end, that's on you dude.

Story has some problems but her arc is not one of them.

Were you expecting a radical change? Her being stoic and a bit cunty is why many people love her.

P.s. i think she was feeling something for tilda from the way she says the last words about her...
 
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SlimySnake

Member
You do 1 damage (not even true, was 4-5-6 or more for me depending on the weapon/arrow) only when you hit the armored pieces on the machines.
Which makes all the sense in the world giving you're fighting AI engineered super advanced robots with frigging arrows.

Just remove those parts to do proper damage on the softer body beneath, or aim somewhere else.
I know all the tricks. I have put in almost 80 hours into the game at this point. I have leveled up almost all the legendary weapons, but even now when Im out of stamina and valor, some fights turn into just messy jankfests. 1v1 against slower enemies like the Slaughterspine and Elephant are still ok, but that fucking turtle, the trex, fireclaws and clawstriders are still a mess to fight if you dont kill them in one hit using various valors and stamina techniques. But at that point, it just becomes a game of DPS and Horizon ZD to me had the best open world combat that didnt rely on Diablo and WRPG OP DPS builds to be fun. It was just fun because of the tango between Aloy and her enemies. Now it's either this bizarre methodical weakpoint only way they want you to play this game while shoving aggressive enemies down your throat or creating these OP builds that kill everyone in one hit.

P.S You still fought the same AI engineered super advanced robots with frigging arrows in the first game. Why wasnt this an issue in the first game? I never didnt 1 or 4 or 5 or 6 damage to any enemy in the first game no matter how much armor they had. It was because my arrows were literally made from METAL shards I had harvested from those same enemies. It made perfect sense in the first game.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Her arc is that she trust people to help her now, isn't enough??
Nope. She shouldve learned that when literally six different tribes all came to help her beat Hades at the end of the first game.

Compare her arc to other protagonists in Sony games. Miles goes through A LOT in Spiderman. An 8 hour game. Jin Sakai in Ghost of Tsuhsima is constantly tested by betrayals from his friends and family. He isnt just trying to beat the mongols, there is internal conflict and he makes crucial decisions that help grow his character. Ellie's story arc in the second game is in a league of its own, but I would say Aloy's lack of character growth is basically the same as Abby's. Neither were given too much to work with. It fell flat. She just goes through the motions playing the big bad bitch saving the world. There is no voyage of self discovery. No real conflict. She is an errand boy for 90% of the game.
 

rofif

Gold Member
This game was a disappointment for me. I really loved ZD on PC , even during its buggy release.

- Aloy is a horrible main character in FW. In the ZD you see her grow as a character which was great, she was a wonderful character. In FW she's stuck up and lacks any emotion.
She never stops talking. I enter a new mission area and within a few seconds she starts dropping hints, and this is is with Explorer mode enabled.
She's selfish for wanting to do everything on her own, constantly telling people she doesn't need help while the whole world depends on her. Who does that? When in such a position, you take all the help you can get. It's the whole world against the common enemy.
After defeating a fucking T-Rex she just brushes it off like it's nothing. No emotion, no nothing. The same can be felt during conversations where she has such a boring monotone voice. Don't get me started on the pauses she has to take to come up with another boring ass response. Also, what is up with repeating the last sentence someone else had made? Who talks like that. NPC: "My sister is lost in the desert". Aloy "You said your sister was lost in the desert??".
During the first hours I was invested in the stories but after a while I had to skip them or else I would fall asleep.
- The side characters are shallow and I couldn't care less about any of them. It was great seeing some familiar faces but it lacked depth. I would have loved to see some actual deep personal quests to add some background layer to the extra characters.
- The world seems to be in a chaos yet everything is always fine and there's mostly always a happy ending. You beat one the best warriors of a certain clan? No problem, we can still be friends! Please join us while we give you full access to our community oh great Aloy! You destroy our village? Hey no problem! It lacks harshness, the actual chaos of a war between tribes.
- I'm on the fence about the combat. On one hand it's still great when it comes to the actual combat between you and the robots. Having to aim at their weak spots is good, especially when every robot differs. It keeps it interesting, which I liked. Sometimes the robots tend to have jerky movements so you're permanently stuck in matrix mode or else you'll miss your shots. Melee combat is the worst. They tease you with an enemy that has a shield, yet the only option you have it to dodge. They really missed the mark on having a deep melee combat system. No shield/parry tends to make most melee combat come down to dodging and attacking, which isn't enough for me. I felt no reason to unlock the extra combos because of this and got away with the basic combos. Later enemies tend to be able to keep you down with multiple attacks. I've had attacks when I got knocked down and the moment I got up I was hit again which can be annoying.
- Climbing can be annoying at times. Aloy gets stuck, doesn't move where you want her to or doesn't grab what she's supposed to. The idea of being able to climb on most things is great, yet I had to turn on the option to mark the spots where you can climb or else you're stuck pressing R3 the whole time. Maybe an issue with detection.
- The pullcaster was overdone because most areas relied on it.
- You have an inventory, where berries are placed. When you pick up more berries, they get magically added to your stash (which is fine). When you're out of berries, they get magically added to your inventory. So what is the use of the stash? Why limit the amount in your inventory?
- Traps which you have no ammo for are still in your list. So when you're in the heat of battle and want to switch to a healing potion, you stuck having to press left/right for too long.
- The graphics on quality mode are great, but 30 fps is not for me so I was on performance mode which unfortunately is blurry. With graphics this great, it makes other things obvious, like the mediocre lipsync. Which also doesn't help the boring conversations.

All in all, this was a solid 7,5 for me, which isn't bad but it could've been way better. The ending was even worse and stopped be from even wanting to finish the remaining side quests.
Her talking all the time was not so bad for me but I agree with everything else. Some loose points from my playthrough:
-Aloy is not likeable. But her face is likeable... She kinda has nothing to do really in this game. Her arc is completed in last game and she was better there.
-The story is complete nonsense. The whole "visitors" idea is fantastc but they are not redeemable idiots with unexplainable tech. Hades crap is bs too...
-All the constant talking (dialogue) omg. Everyone constantly wants something from you. and it is not rpg talking. It's just listening to make the text boxes faded.
-New characters are mostly terrible. Especially female ones. The vegetarian lady is annoying, one-tone and stupid. The lgbt tech lady is terrible... she whines all the time. She is this crazy tech super mind killer but she is in facta an idiot scared of everything and ... shy ?! The one handed warrior guy is cool and even has some arc. Nicely voice acted too but he is kinda boring to listen to. They are all stereotypes. Some side quests characters are good like the theater artists . The chief voice is fantastic too. Loved listening to him.
-Old cast has nothing to do in this game. Varl is boring goody2shoes, Erend is fine but he does nothing. The big cleavage but small boob lady in first village is a typical tough woman warrior, the science tv show guy is still "uuu so mysterious and step ahead" again. Regala is annoying.
-Combat was fun at the beginning but ended up being always in slow motion, always targeting parts, always scanning robots, always out of right arrow types to shoot... The combat just got extremely repetitive and difficult for no reason. and you get stunlocked quickly. Enemies are very aggressive
-Crafting, loot system, loot levels... terrible busy work. Even worse than first game.
-I was doing a lot of side stuff. Some puzzles are even fun. But I always found myself under leveled for main story missions... and then you find out, it is way better to progress the story to unlock gear before really digging into side missions. what. Otherwise you go back there with new gear to open stuff
-One more thing - few times I found myself attacked by some very tough boss at the end of side quest... and he was vulnerable to some type of dmg which I did not have on me. Very frustrating fights
-edit: another thing - skill tree sucks ass, skills suck ass

tl:dr bad story, bad characters, bad loot, bad equipement, repetitive combat
good graphics, good exploration, cool world.

7,5 is overrated. I would give that to the first game. This is a 6,5
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
Nope. She shouldve learned that when literally six different tribes all came to help her beat Hades at the end of the first game.

Compare her arc to other protagonists in Sony games. Miles goes through A LOT in Spiderman. An 8 hour game. Jin Sakai in Ghost of Tsuhsima is constantly tested by betrayals from his friends and family. He isnt just trying to beat the mongols, there is internal conflict and he makes crucial decisions that help grow his character. Ellie's story arc in the second game is in a league of its own, but I would say Aloy's lack of character growth is basically the same as Abby's. Neither were given too much to work with. It fell flat. She just goes through the motions playing the big bad bitch saving the world. There is no voyage of self discovery. No real conflict. She is an errand boy for 90% of the game.
yeah agree to disagree, she is wildly different from when she start FW, they purposely made her even more stoic than the first game to make you notice the difference in the end.
And she was not helped by 6 tribes, only by people she helped in sidequests and the carja\oseram were trying to defend the city, not something that you can do alone, of course she accepted that type of help, she was forced to do so, they would have defended the city even without her.
It is not a gigantic change but hey, people like her for her stoicism and for not taking shit from anyone, why changing that?

Citing stuff like tsushima where the "struggle" is that super idiotic honor bullshit that is completely separated from reality doesn't play in your favour dude, talk about silly narrative all around, some sidequest with lady masako or the archer were better than the main story imo because the character felt more real while interacting with them, sure the main campaign had some cool moments, but the whole honor thing was just too stupid to take it seriously.

i cringed everytime his uncle opened his mouth to say something about honor, the whole thing was so fucking idiotic that i coulnd't take it seriously for half a second, maybe it's just because i don't care about samurai japanese movies...the villain was cool for the first 2 hours before becoming a child in the kindergarten trying to offend the uncle by telling him how his nephew was fucking up his entire army, and by the end he is just a bitch who run away, terrible.

We are gonna see how much miles evolved when in spiderman 2 is still gonna be the newbie fresh out the boat superhero stereotype when peter is gonna be in town...
 
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Swift_Star

Gold Member
this reads like satire xD

dude, the most effective way to kill any enemy in this game, and believe me I tried to make it more interesting, is to simply bullettime shoot weak spots with weapons that do tear damage over and over untill they fall off... that is it.
traps are super weak, stealth is slow and simply bad, and the combat is quite literally SHOOT > SHOOT > DODGE > SHOOT SHOOT > DODGE.
the only amount of "depth" this game has is to scan enemies and select an arrow type according to the symbols shown...

the open world is static and devoid of actual fun due to the horrendous controls with half-automated jumps and janky climbing that make it simply not fun to even traverse it.
and once you can fly it becomes super trivial.
What games have you looking for weak spots and elemental weakness of enemies? Horizon combat is unique and no amount of trolling will change that.
 

Swift_Star

Gold Member
I think reviewers have gotten way too complacent this gen. Last gen started out with critics rating games very harshly. KZSF topped out at 70 because it felt like a retread. Ryse sucked ass and was awarded a disastrous metacrtic average in the low 60s. DriveClub topped out at 70. Perhaps unfairly. The Order was destroyed by the critics, and rightfully so. Even Destiny was harshly judged and got a 76 IIRC. It wasnt until Bloodborne in 2015 that critics finally started handing out high 80s and 90+ scores.

Even good games like Infamous Second Son topped out at 80 which is where this game probably should reside. it's not a bad game. it's just more of the same, and not all of it is necessarily better. Just like Infamous Second Son. Ratchet, Halo Infinite, and Horizon getting 88s and 89s is bizarre to say the least. These games are good, but should be in low 80s at best. Probably lower seeing as how they bring absolutely nothing new to the next gen.

You've got Elden Rings posting 97 metacritic even though its basically Dark Souls set in the open world. It doesnt feel as handcrafted as Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 felt where every encounter felt meticulously designed. Now you just run into random encounters in the open world against enemies who are just there as fodder. Is this what critics want nowadays?

I see Forza Horizon's score and im like more of the same is worth 93 now? No wonder Elden Ring got a 97 because at least they took the series open world when it was linear before. Horizon Forbidden West is objectively worse in several key areas like combat, platforming, story, polish, and maybe even level design. It is objectively better in storytelling, visuals and production values, but those things are just salad dressing. The meat of the game is worse, and the critics got bamboozled by fancy cutscene graphics and dialogue options that literally go nowhere. They dont make the missions any different. They dont offer you more choices to role play as Aloy. The actual playing of the game is a worse experience which after a 5 years gap should not result in the same metacritic score. Standards must be higher in 2022.

I would love to do polls on whether or not Ratchet Rift Apart is the best Ratchet game. Same for whether or not Elden Rings is the best souls game. I know everyone loves the game here, but Bloodborne is simply a better crafted souls game. Same with halo infinite. So if these games arent even the better than previous entries that came out 7-10 years ago then why are they getting such high scores in 2022?
Is your opinion objective truth now?
 

DForce

Member
I say objectively worse in the sense that platforming is simply way too glitchy and janky. Game feels very janky overall. Way too many bugs for a Sony first party game. Performance mode is trash. Fidelity mode was such an eyesore they ended up downgrading it to ensure it didnt cause eye strain. Stuff that shouldve been found in playtesting. Storytelling is better, but story overall isnt. Aloy has a shit arc compared to the phenomenal personal adventure and growth she had in the first game. The villains are underdeveloped which is crazy considering the lengths they went to make us hate Ted Faro just by using holograms in the first game. Level design is mostly the same, but they force platforming and puzzles in them both of which are simply worse than the first game and bring down the overall quality of the campaign.

Combat is way too frustrating with enemies being more aggressive on Normal than they were in Ultra Hard NG+ mode they patched later in HZD to give players more challenge. The biggest change in combat was making your arrows do 1 damage if they dont hit weakpoints, and that has made combat feel simply worse. Is it more balanced? Maybe. Does it make combat feel better? Not even close.

The armor you are talking about cannot be earned until pretty much the end of the game. The final piece is in the second to last story mission. Yes, it breaks the post game activities, and maybe NG+ but NG was fine. DLC introduced elemental enemies that rendered that armor useless anyway.

I think the problem is that they simply NAILED the first game. it was as good as Horizon can be. It didnt need a big jump like Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 2 because they already launched at uncharted 2 quality. So what do they do? They start tinkering with the combat and platforming without really overhauling their engine to incorporate next gen tech like they shouldve. They HAD to make it different, but just like GOW Ascension, different doesnt always translate to better. A lot of the changes are for the worse. No one asked for dozens of variants for the same weapons nor did they ask for weakpoint only combat. But they couldnt add anything major due to last gen limitations so they ended up just changing things. And not always for the better.

I hope we see Avatar this year because that is a game that is really taking advantage of the SSD to enable really fast air traversal along with enhanced wildlife AI causing stampedes, destruction and interactivity. It likely wont have combat as good as Horizon, but it should give us an idea of what next gen tech can do to offer agency in combat scenarios.


I know all the tricks. I have put in almost 80 hours into the game at this point. I have leveled up almost all the legendary weapons, but even now when Im out of stamina and valor, some fights turn into just messy jankfests. 1v1 against slower enemies like the Slaughterspine and Elephant are still ok, but that fucking turtle, the trex, fireclaws and clawstriders are still a mess to fight if you dont kill them in one hit using various valors and stamina techniques. But at that point, it just becomes a game of DPS and Horizon ZD to me had the best open world combat that didnt rely on Diablo and WRPG OP DPS builds to be fun. It was just fun because of the tango between Aloy and her enemies. Now it's either this bizarre methodical weakpoint only way they want you to play this game while shoving aggressive enemies down your throat or creating these OP builds that kill everyone in one hit.

So, your point is that they made it worse by making it harder to do the things you enjoyed in the first game.

People can have their opinion on what's better or what's worse, but I just don't think it's "objectively" worse. I fought enemies where I only did 1-10 points of damage, but that doesn't happen nearly as often, nor do I think it's worse than being able to stun enemies with one melee attack.

I enjoyed the first game, and it's one of my favorite open world games of all time, but being able to take down enemies so easily just didn't bring much of a challenge to me. It was always the Precision Arrows, Tearblast Arrows, Heavy Attack, and Ropecaster. The two options were so strong that I barely use any other weapon in the game. In Horizon Forbidden West is when I actually considered many other options that were viable to me.
 

Topher

Gold Member
I say objectively worse

Your opinion is not objective.

I know all the tricks. I have put in almost 80 hours into the game at this point. I have leveled up almost all the legendary weapons, but even now when Im out of stamina and valor, some fights turn into just messy jankfests. 1v1 against slower enemies like the Slaughterspine and Elephant are still ok, but that fucking turtle, the trex, fireclaws and clawstriders are still a mess to fight if you dont kill them in one hit using various valors and stamina techniques. But at that point, it just becomes a game of DPS and Horizon ZD to me had the best open world combat that didnt rely on Diablo and WRPG OP DPS builds to be fun. It was just fun because of the tango between Aloy and her enemies. Now it's either this bizarre methodical weakpoint only way they want you to play this game while shoving aggressive enemies down your throat or creating these OP builds that kill everyone in one hit.

P.S You still fought the same AI engineered super advanced robots with frigging arrows in the first game. Why wasnt this an issue in the first game? I never didnt 1 or 4 or 5 or 6 damage to any enemy in the first game no matter how much armor they had. It was because my arrows were literally made from METAL shards I had harvested from those same enemies. It made perfect sense in the first game.

I think they definitely made the game more centered on exploiting weakpoints. How is that "bizarre"? I'm beating the same machines you are and I rarely use valor except for parts hunting. This isn't an "issue". The game evolved and that made it better, imo. It makes sense though. You wouldn't fight a modern mechanized army with bows and arrows without a hell of a lot of tricks. Personally, I'm having a blast using plasma to build up a big explosion on machines. That's a hell of a lot more fun than shooting regular arrows at a machine over and over again.
 
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I kind of want a tight experience like this - I wish another Bioshock Infinite type game would come out soon (or does anyone have suggestions?). These days I don't want a game where there is too much to do and I end up doing nothing, not enough time for that. I just want a game that is straightforward, don't have to think much, and is high quality with good, sophisticated story with good graphics/gameplay. Getting tired of these big open world games where there is too much to do
 
So I'm not done with the game, but have put in about 24 hours into the game and have entered the late game phase (per igns walkthrough).

Pros:
Absolutely beautiful graphics
Stunning cutscenes
Exciting set piece battles against big dinos
Interesting plot lines so far (very complex and requires me looking up what happened 10 hrs ago because so much has happened)
Shooting gameplay is really fun

Cons:
Climbing is AWFUL - ok, I get not overtly copying other games, but AC Valhalla and Breath of the Wild do climbing so much better. You almost can't climb anything in this game. Its incredibly frustrating.
Cutscene direction - while beautiful, the cutscenes feel bloated and really boring. I've fallen asleep no less than 4 times while a cutscene was going.
Character design - more of a subjective point, but why are all of the characters so ugly? I'm playing with my gf and she had the same comment. Everyone seems overly designed to look average.
NPC Talking - it seems like everyone, including Aloy, never shuts up. It is incessant talking about every little thing and what they're doing. It is incredibly distracting and started to really annoy me when you meet Alva.
The grind of the game also gets to me and it annoys me that you need an item and money to buy new weapons. I get needing it for upgrades, but BUYING a new weapon? It should just be cash. It makes me just use my current loadout and not upgrade.
Stealth is attrocious - you're relegated to throwing rocks and hiding in bushes. While this is very common to modern stealth games, it annoys me that you can't snipe with the bow and STAY in stealth, because its impossible to know if your arrow will one-shot them. Usually, I shoot them and it takes off a small chunk of health and the whole group is alerted. AC does this better by showing how much health the attack will take off. If it isn't everything, try something else. The only way to do stealth as the game wants is to either place traps on their path, or hide in bush and assassinate when they're close. But you can't move bodies, so they'll be found soon after.

That being said, I'm having a good time, but I'm about ready to wrap it up to play something else. I'm near the end, so I'll finish, but this game feels long in the tooth.
 
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SlimySnake

Member
So, your point is that they made it worse by making it harder to do the things you enjoyed in the first game.

People can have their opinion on what's better or what's worse, but I just don't think it's "objectively" worse. I fought enemies where I only did 1-10 points of damage, but that doesn't happen nearly as often, nor do I think it's worse than being able to stun enemies with one melee attack.

I enjoyed the first game, and it's one of my favorite open world games of all time, but being able to take down enemies so easily just didn't bring much of a challenge to me. It was always the Precision Arrows, Tearblast Arrows, Heavy Attack, and Ropecaster. The two options were so strong that I barely use any other weapon in the game. In Horizon Forbidden West is when I actually considered many other options that were viable to me.
But by that logic, we can never truly determine if one game is objectively worse than its predecessor. We all know DMC2, Dark Souls 2, God of War Ascension are all objectively worse even though they pretty much have the same combat systems, but it's the small changes that make them play worse and feel worse. The same is true here. The combat is no longer satisfying. It is TOO hectic. It no longer feels rewarding due to those 1 damage markers. you mention how making the weapons worse had you consider trying out different weapons, but did it make the game better? Did it make the combat more fun? More rewarding? I think we all know the answer to that question. They added complexity without really thinking about whether or not it is fun to play.

I post gameplay clips on youtube all the time, they never get any views beyond my friends who dont even bother to watch them most of the times. The video about horizon's combat got almost 600 views. It went mini viral because people didnt just watch it, they commented and all the comments pointed out how the game just feels worse.

I mentioned this in the OT but this game feels like a rough first draft. not the final product. It's almost like the game needed several passes of polish and refinement to iron out all the little kinks with the combat as well as graphics which had some very odd issues that marred arguably the greatest looking game on any platform. Im guessing Jimbo rushed this out when it needed at least 6 months to a year of iteration.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
But by that logic, we can never truly determine if one game is objectively worse than its predecessor.

point pointing GIF by Shalita Grant


You can use review scores and say one game objectively scored higher than another, but your opinion on which is better/worse is entirely subjective.
 

DForce

Member
But by that logic, we can never truly determine if one game is objectively worse than its predecessor. We all know DMC2, Dark Souls 2, God of War Ascension are all objectively worse even though they pretty much have the same combat systems, but it's the small changes that make them play worse and feel worse. The same is true here. The combat is no longer satisfying. It is TOO hectic. It no longer feels rewarding due to those 1 damage markers. you mention how making the weapons worse had you consider trying out different weapons, but did it make the game better? Did it make the combat more fun? More rewarding? I think we all know the answer to that question. They added complexity without really thinking about whether or not it is fun to play.

I post gameplay clips on youtube all the time, they never get any views beyond my friends who dont even bother to watch them most of the times. The video about horizon's combat got almost 600 views. It went mini viral because people didnt just watch it, they commented and all the comments pointed out how the game just feels worse.

I mentioned this in the OT but this game feels like a rough first draft. not the final product. It's almost like the game needed several passes of polish and refinement to iron out all the little kinks with the combat as well as graphics which had some very odd issues that marred arguably the greatest looking game on any platform. Im guessing Jimbo rushed this out when it needed at least 6 months to a year of iteration.
It's still subjective. If it was objective, then either the vast majority of everyone would feel the same way as you do.

I find the game more satisfying because it's not nearly as easy as the first and I have more options to use when taking out machines. Yes, there are times when I shoot a machine and do 1 point worth of damage, but that rarely happens. If we carried over the mechanics from the last game, then that would make a lot of other weapons useless.

Horizon is meant to be more complex than action games like Uncharted because it's an RPG. So, imagine just going with one main weapon and just looking at the other ones as useless. That's not fun to me. When I fight machines, I want them to feel like a threat, not an easy target. This is what makes Horizon more unique than a lot of open world games.

I just tried Horizon Zero Dawn and loaded a save right before I started the DLC. I can go into the DLC and take out enemies with ease by using the heavy attack. While the game is fun, I don't see that as satisfying. This is something I was hoping that they would fix in HFW and that's exactly what happened.
 

SlimySnake

Member
If we carried over the mechanics from the last game, then that would make a lot of other weapons useless.
This I agree with and was the main reason why I included games like Elden Ring, Halo Infinite and Ratchet in my original post. This is not an issue exclusive to Horizon. I feel like a lot of games feel either too samey or worse because there is only so much you can do with a combat engine. Elden Rings still has the same hit detection issues and other combat jankiness as Demon Souls which was a PS3 game.

I fear GOW Ragnorak will try to add more stuff and suffer the same fate as Horizon and GoW Ascension.

TBH, I like the weapon techniques and valor surge additions. I just dont think they are implemented all that well. When I first unlocked the volleyshot for my hunter bow, my eyes lit up even though I didnt care for how difficult it was to pull off during combat. I figured they would go all out and add all kinds of Mass Effect/God of War runic attacks, but that turned out to be the only cool new move for the hunter bow. The other two were triple shot which was in the first game and a knockdown shot which is pretty basic. For the precision bow, you get brace shot which is the one great weapon skill, but the rest are basic like the hunter bow. Chain Reaction is a fantastic valor surge, but again, the way its implemented is lame. You have to build the valor surge during battle then switch to it from the menus every time. The warrior and disc launcher bows look fantastic but they do such shit damage they are basically useless. I think they wouldve worked better as skills on some bows and grenade launchers instead. Imagine a fast firing skill on your hunter bow or boomerang discs on your grenade launcher that sought out multiple enemies.

The ideas are good. The implementation just leaves a lot to be desired.
 
Never saw so much hate for a female protagonist before. Maybe if she was a multiplatform character, there would be less hate.

If you dont like the game, just say it. Nobody is forcing you to play. Writing books or essays and listing 100 reasons for why you dislike the game says more about your taste in games than it does about the flaws the game has. Not perfect, but also no where near as bad as people over exaggerate. Combat is great, stories and side Quest are much better than HZD, and it has set the bar for graphics in an open world game on any platform, it looks amazing.
 
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Chukhopops

Member
What games have you looking for weak spots and elemental weakness of enemies? Horizon combat is unique and no amount of trolling will change that.
You… you really think Horizon invented weak spots and elemental weaknesses? Have you ever heard of Monster Hunter? Cause it was doing both in 2004.

I sometimes wonder if there are people in this board who only play Sony first party and just endlessly compare them to each other.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
I like Aloy. I love the combat. I love literally tearing enimies to pieces and seeing direct results from my actions. The games plot lacks good forward momentum, that is indeed a problem, but its also the middle game in a series.
 

Swift_Star

Gold Member
You… you really think Horizon invented weak spots and elemental weaknesses? Have you ever heard of Monster Hunter? Cause it was doing both in 2004.

I sometimes wonder if there are people in this board who only play Sony first party and just endlessly compare them to each other.
No, I think the way it uses these elements is unique, are you dense? I’m pretty sure my gaming baggage is way higher than yours.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
I like Aloy. I love the combat. I love literally tearing enimies to pieces and seeing direct results from my actions. The games plot lacks good forward momentum, that is indeed a problem, but its also the middle game in a series.

Middle chapters are often awkward parts of the overall story since having a satisfying resolution to the middle story and setting up the final chapter isn't always an easy thing to do.
 

The artful mincer

Gold Member
You… you really think Horizon invented weak spots and elemental weaknesses? Have you ever heard of Monster Hunter? Cause it was doing both in 2004.

I sometimes wonder if there are people in this board who only play Sony first party and just endlessly compare them to each other.
Call me when you can blow off a laser cannon in monster hunter world and use that weapon against the monster.

The comparison between Monster hunter and Horizon always puzzle me. They both feature enemies that look like dinosaurs that's about where the similarities end.

Monster hunter is primarily a melee game (even the " ranged weapons " are melee weapons in disguise) Horizon is primarily a ranged combat game. They both have weak spots on there enemies but getting to those weak spots require completely different tactics and gameplay.

Of course Horizon didn't invente weak spots (neither did monster hunter) however it did introduce way more gameplay depth around them than any other game before it.(Including monster hunter).

I am sure monster hunter does a bunch off stuff better than Horizon. But Horizon implementation of weakspots is way more Interesting and fun than Monster hunters.
 

Chukhopops

Member
No, I think the way it uses these elements is unique, are you dense? I’m pretty sure my gaming baggage is way higher than yours.
Uh, ok then. I’m sure it’s never been done before, ice, acid, fire that… burns and deals damage over time? Shock actually stuns enemies??? Like HOW did they come up with such unique ideas? What’s next? Poison?
Call me when you can blow off a laser cannon in monster hunter world and use that weapon against the monster.

The comparison between Monster hunter and Horizon always puzzle me. They both feature enemies that look like dinosaurs that's about where the similarities end.

Monster hunter is primarily a melee game (even the " ranged weapons " are melee weapons in disguise) Horizon is primarily a ranged combat game. They both have weak spots on there enemies but getting to those weak spots require completely different tactics and gameplay.

Of course Horizon didn't invente weak spots (neither did monster hunter) however it did introduce way more gameplay depth around them than any other game before it.(Including monster hunter).

I am sure monster hunter does a bunch off stuff better than Horizon. But Horizon implementation of weakspots is way more Interesting and fun than Monster hunters.
I’m sorry I can’t take any of that post seriously when you say ranged weapons in MH are melee weapons in disguise. That’s just too far out to even discuss.

I was calling out the dumb idea that Horizons combat is unique because of weak points and element weaknesses but hey, if you believe that it’s up to you.
 

Swift_Star

Gold Member
Uh, ok then. I’m sure it’s never been done before, ice, acid, fire that… burns and deals damage over time? Shock actually stuns enemies??? Like HOW did they come up with such unique ideas? What’s next? Poison?

I’m sorry I can’t take any of that post seriously when you say ranged weapons in MH are melee weapons in disguise. That’s just too far out to even discuss.

I was calling out the dumb idea that Horizons combat is unique because of weak points and element weaknesses but hey, if you believe that it’s up to you.
You’re being purposely obtuse or are you really dense? You’re not calling anything out because you’re wrong. What games have you shooting arrows at mechanic enemies while figuring their multiple weak spots and collectable parts, elemental weaknesses, have you using this to take parts of your enemies, some of them become resources, others you can explode damaging the enemy, you and other enemies around this enemy, or have you taking some parts of the enemies making these parts become a weapon for you to use against them? Or taking enemy parts makes the enemies weaker, reducing their power or making them unable to use certain abilities. Let us not forget you can even convert the enemies making them either fight for you or become mounts. So, tell me, what games do exactly what horizon does? All of that before? Show us a video of a game that does exactly all that. And it has to be exactly what horizon does. Consider yourself owned if you can’t provide that.
 
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The artful mincer

Gold Member
Uh, ok then. I’m sure it’s never been done before, ice, acid, fire that… burns and deals damage over time? Shock actually stuns enemies??? Like HOW did they come up with such unique ideas? What’s next? Poison?

I’m sorry I can’t take any of that post seriously when you say ranged weapons in MH are melee weapons in disguise. That’s just too far out to even discuss.

I was calling out the dumb idea that Horizons combat is unique because of weak points and element weaknesses but hey, if you believe that it’s up to you.
Lol okay but that wasn't even meant as criticism just an observation I think some would even take that as a compliment!

But seriously the ranged weapons in monster hunter clearly don't feel like or serve the same purpose as your average gun in fps or tps.

I.e. the importance of aiming them is secondary to chaining combos together or choosing light or heavy attacks etc. Hence there similarities to melee weapons
 

The artful mincer

Gold Member
I must be the only one who like having enemies that pose a real danger and they don't stay still to be hit by the player.

The game still has a lot of explosive weapons for people with shit aim and no patience, use that folks.
Having super fast aggressive enemies should be a message to the player to try different tactics to get around it.

E.g.

shock it
nail it down with the trip caster
heat a weak spot before it aggros
Set traps
Stealth attack it
Override an another machine to help
 

tassletine

Member
These are just your very personal opinions on such games though, not objective truths.

Are they worthier than others? Are the comments in the OT of people giving the game a 10/10 coming from morons?
Or all those who thought the game was much superior, night and day even, compared to the first one, just idiots blinded by "salad dressing"?

I remember reading you opinions about the game before getting it, about how impossible fighting a Thunderjaw was compared to the first one and how everyone would agree by the time they would fight one.
Well i fought my first one, at Very Hard and with no Reticle and with regular hunter bow only and had a blast. Was it challenging? Yes. Was it "impossible because by the time you aim after a dodge he's facing you already"? Not at all.

tassletine tassletine
Have you really played this game?
Your Aloy description feels off by country mile, hence my question.
Yeah, I played the first one, then a bit of the second. I really can't stand the character and Elden Ring just made me turn it off forever.

There have been characters like this before in GTA that have put me off playing, but none this tedious with such a severe humour bypass.
Remembering my youth, all those decades ago, I understand that that sort of character would appeal to a rebellious person, much in the same way that the Spice Girls did.
But as an adult, urghhh. Just shut up will you! I get it, you're brave. As an adult those people seem weak and superficial.
There are several reviews that agree with me here, the most notable being the Eurogamer review and Zero Punctuation, both go far more in depth than I'm prepared to.

I would say that getting older and being able to view the world through a different lens IS in it's own way an objective truth and most people of a certain age would get my point.
That the game seems to be aimed squarely at teenagers (and extroverts) as far as I'm concerned is a big mistake for a mass market game.

There is always this argument about things just being subjective, but that's just not the case.
There is only one way that you could make this game to earn the most money. Every single decision the developers make, is to that aim.
Objectively, they have clearly put off some of their audience, that is not subjective.

Half Life, Zelda, Souls games, those developers know very well that you need an unassuming blank slate hero, and historically that's always been the case. Anything else and you're trying to make a point about something.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I guess it landed a little different for me, I played HZD in 2020-2021, so, definitely dated, and I did have to push through on some parts of that game. But, HFW improved upon nearly every aspect of the original, it's my first platinum game of 22'. Working on Elden Ring now, for me, my score personally? I give it a 9/10 for the genre that it occupies, Elden Ring gets a 10/10 (So far) from me for the genre that it occupies.
Same. Forbidden West is exactly how sequels should be done. There's big improvements like being able to go underwater and explore to having flying mounts and better quests. And there's also smaller QOL improvements like the bigger weapon wheel

9/10 I'm just waiting on new game plus to start another playthrough
 

Chukhopops

Member
You’re being purposely obtuse or are you really dense? You’re not calling anything out because you’re wrong. What games have you shooting arrows at mechanic enemies while figuring their multiple weak spots and collectable parts, elemental weaknesses, have you using this to take parts of your enemies, some of them become resources, others you can explode damaging the enemy, you and other enemies around this enemy, or have you taking some parts of the enemies making these parts become a weapon for you to use against them? Or taking enemy parts makes the enemies weaker, reducing their power or making them unable to use certain abilities. Let us not forget you can even convert the enemies making them either fight for you or become mounts. So, tell me, what games do exactly what horizon does? All of that before? Show us a video of a game that does exactly all that. And it has to be exactly what horizon does. Consider yourself owned if you can’t provide that.
You’re really uninformed about superior series it’s almost scary.

You can mount monsters in MH and make them fight against each other (in Rise/World). You can cut tails, break parts that prevent enemies from using certain moves or doing massive damage (like Gore Magala or Glavenus). You can shoot arrows at weak spots obviously.

The only thing in your list is mechanical enemies (although I guess I could use Valstrax) and using enemy turrets as weapons (although that’s one of the mechanics you use in the Atal-Ka fight). I guess I’m owned because they came up with one original idea, what will I do now?
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
First time i read someone saying Forbidden West is worse than the original. what alternate reality is this? There's nothing the original does better than this one.
It's good to know I'm not taking crazy pills here. I think Forbidden West is drastically better than Zero Dawn
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
TBH this game would have made more sense if it was a PS5 launch title. Releasing what's essentially a glorified techdemo over a year after the original system came out is pointless. same for R&C although to a lesser extent since that came out a few months after launch
Oprah Winfrey GIF
 

Yoboman

Member
But by that logic, we can never truly determine if one game is objectively worse than its predecessor. We all know DMC2, Dark Souls 2, God of War Ascension are all objectively worse even though they pretty much have the same combat systems, but it's the small changes that make them play worse and feel worse. The same is true here. The combat is no longer satisfying. It is TOO hectic. It no longer feels rewarding due to those 1 damage markers. you mention how making the weapons worse had you consider trying out different weapons, but did it make the game better? Did it make the combat more fun? More rewarding? I think we all know the answer to that question. They added complexity without really thinking about whether or not it is fun to play.

I post gameplay clips on youtube all the time, they never get any views beyond my friends who dont even bother to watch them most of the times. The video about horizon's combat got almost 600 views. It went mini viral because people didnt just watch it, they commented and all the comments pointed out how the game just feels worse.

I mentioned this in the OT but this game feels like a rough first draft. not the final product. It's almost like the game needed several passes of polish and refinement to iron out all the little kinks with the combat as well as graphics which had some very odd issues that marred arguably the greatest looking game on any platform. Im guessing Jimbo rushed this out when it needed at least 6 months to a year of iteration.
You're only trying to cling to the word "objective" because you think your opinion carries some greater level of importance and using that word validates it above the contrary opinions. It doesn't. Your opinion is subjective.
 
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