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Drama Rumor Horizon: Forbidden West PC possibly less than 8 months after PS5 release according to latest NVIDIA Geforce leak

RoyalLaFlame

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So true.

PS1 sold 100 million units alone. And that was 20 years ago by the time it ended. PS2 was 150. PS3 close to 90. PS4 120. PS5? Who knows it just started.

Gaming has grown immensely, with big game makers and console makers with digital storefronts hoarding big money now with mtx. A lot of retail store cuts are gone and shifted to console and Steam storefronts. PC retailer cuts are basically all gone.

Despite huge gaming revenue, console units for Nintendo, MS, Sony as a combined total havent budged since the PS2 days when consoles and handhelds were probably 300 million. Now someone will say Nintendo is killing two birds with one stone with Switch, but it doesn't matter. You'd think with how big gaming is globally that hardware sales should probably approach 400 or 500 million by now. But it hasnt. If the 32-bit era of PS1, Saturn, N64 and Gameboys can combine for like 200 million units that period, how can modern day not be double that? The console/handheld gamer base looks like it hasnt budged anywhere and the big gamer shift (pie slice expansion) is gamers preferring mobile or PC.

Sony has that Fate Order mobile game which drives billions in revenue alone for years so they know what's it like to expand to cellphone games.
Exactly. If they're waiting for their next console to always sell more than its predecessor, their business will never grow.
The most profits Sony get are from PSN+ subscription (they would lose that huge income if people move from Playstation platform to Steam), and third party royalties (physical and digital). So 120m consoles always will be better for Sony that 100 million consoles (20 moving to PC) to sell their first party games on PC.

This move is super dumb because they are not releasing their own store on PC, they are using the competence. They are not competence? so its not steam deck a portable console? what will release after steam deck from Valve or even third party vendors? Sony is trying a short-term growth at expense of the future of the brand (5-7 years in the future). This will affect PS5, but will kill a future PS6.
Once again. Yeah, PS+ can give them a lot of money but it will ALWAYS be limited by the number of consoles sold. You have to accept that many people simply won't buy a PS5, no matter how much you love the console. So Sony has a choice to make here - should I keep content and depend solely on the consoles I'll sell this gen, or maybe, think outside of the box and offer our experiences to people that don't want to buy our console?

Because if you're going to wait on consoles sold to drive your business, you will stagnate eventually. Selling their services/games somewhere else will prevent that from happening. Fate/Grand Order, PSNow, Games on PC, all of this has helped them grow as a brand, and none of them are tied to consoles sold. MS understands this, Apple understands this, Google understands this, why wouldn't Sony? If Samsung didn't sell components to other brands, they wouldn't be as big as they are now. Same with Sony on their Camera department.

Also, you seem to forget one thing. This doesn't mean Sony will sell all their games on PC, these games are more like an appetiser for people to see the type of experiences they're missing by not having a Playstation. Offering some of your services on other platforms can act as a Trojan horse to actually sell more of your products. Apple Music exists on Android and Windows, but the premium experience is within the Apple platform. Youtube exists on iPhone, but its integration on Android with all the other Google services makes it enticing to switch (even though Google services are pretty good on iOS). MS is the only one playing differently, but that's because it's a win win situation for them. You sell your services on another platform and even if you don't get those people to switch, you will still have their money anyway.

The PS6 will exist if Sony still has their focus on home consoles (which I doubt they will ever abandon unless streaming because like a 1:1 experience somehow), they won't become solely a PC publisher in the future, that doesn't make any sense. These recent moves don't take away the focus from the console itself, it simply helps expand the brand and open its doors to future growth.

Growth = success, it is what it is. Playstation is more than a console, it's a brand now.
 

octiny

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You are making the assumption that PC gamers and PS5 gamers have a big overlap, that a lot of people have both. This isn't the case. Most people are PC gamers or PS5 gamers, exclusively. So it doesn't matter to release them on both. They might lose a bit of money on the PS5 side, but gain a lot more on the PC side.

This x1000

Outside of the small overlap they are two separate markets.

You are missing the… get more PC gamers having also a PS5 side. That is the goal if you know you have better ROI of game sales on PS5 (hello octiny octiny is there a problem with the concept of PS5 titles and subscriptions generating more revenue indicating that one platform is acquiring users and trying to migrate them to the other ;)?)… problems is manufacturing.

The chip shortage affects consoles you are selling not computers already in the homes.

As I've said in the past, said PC gamer who didn't buy a PS4 in the past isn't all of a sudden going to buy a PS5. I mean, why would they, especially now? All major PS4/PS5 titles are coming to PC (asinine if you anybody doubts that at this point). If they didn't do it before, they aren't doing it now 😉.

Regarding ROI, your logic is sound, but that's simply now how it's going to play out & Sony knows this which is why they are going to keep shortening the turn around of PC ports game after game until both are day & date on launch 😉.

Again, two separate markets. The sooner people on this forum realize this, the sooner they graduate from denial to the coping phase. Gamers win, Sony still wins. The only losers would be people like Bryan.

Just my two cents 😉

Am I doing the wink thing right? 😘
 

Panajev2001a

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Stop trying to draw figures and models that don't make sense and practically only bring less money. Sony will release the games on PC. period .Soon will do it on day one too. period. ...And I am convinced that when it happens everyone will hurry to say in their defense "but it was clear we all expected it"

:LOL: how about you take your own advice and reserve this aggressiveness for the times when someone is speaking to you directly :p?

Seriously though… Right now PS4/PS5 is the revenue driver for Sony and where their ARPU (average revenue per user) is higher. It is where they have PS+, it is where they sell / the third party game providers sell and they get the bigger slice of digital sales too.

A strategy that makes sense, especially if you are HW production constraints and there is a growing pool of PC players with good enough specs, is to widen your distribution channels and hope / nudge those players to enter the PS HW ecosystem too). Sorry if it skews the next “are you now giving up your PS5 search / are you ready to drop your PS console” thread that appears regularly.

Similar reasons they moved some titles from exclusives to cross generation albeit the bet there is not fully paying off, I am not aware of the PS4 version of those titles driving massive sales/selling more than the PS5 version, do you have a lot of counter examples there?).
 
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Panajev2001a

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As I've said in the past, said PC gamer who didn't buy a PS4 in the past isn't all of a sudden going to buy a PS5. I mean, why would they, especially now?
Yet people still are buying consoles… there is something that makes the consoles more appealing and you are banking your prediction on there not being any incentives by Sony to ensure people are at least also on PS5 (if not only) considering the ROI calculation you also agree with.
You are also fusing the segment that never got a PS4 and game only on PC (some of which were never interested in console games or Sony exclusives, other games were also on PC, so why would they buy many Sony games just because they are on PC and at full price? Does not scream huge profits…). I do not see Sony risking their margins on consoles too much to court those players.

Next time you are in this part of Kent and we see someone buying a PS5 we can both follow them to the car asking them “Why? Why are you still buying a PS5?!? Please Stop, our Lord and saviour the PC is here for you too!”. Deal ;)?

All major PS4/PS5 titles are coming to PC (asinine if you anybody doubts that at this point). If they didn't do it before, they aren't doing it now 😉.

Regarding ROI, your logic is sound, but that's simply now how it's going to play out & Sony knows this which is why they are going to keep shortening the turn around of PC ports game after game until both are day & date on launch 😉.
I do feel there is a push by some in Sony to make it a manifest destiny kind of prediction, but I am not convinced it is how it is going to play out. Especially without Sony owning a successful PC store presence (Sony needs to prove they can run it well even if they were to build up a storefront).
Also, anything that gets them less than 100 Million consoles a generation (which seems to be their target more or less) or more would put a dent in their profitability. I still see PC as a support platform for them, I do not see your scenario as the inevitable one. You have your opinion and I have mine :).

They can certainly do as you suggest, but hey we would see a new SIE CEO overseeing the reaction to that after Ryan :p.

Am I doing the wink thing right? 😘
You are buddy 💗.
 
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MonarchJT

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:LOL: how about you take your own advice and reserve this aggressiveness for the times when someone is speaking to you directly :p?

Seriously though… Right now PS4/PS5 is the revenue driver for Sony and where their ARPU (average revenue per user) is higher. It is where they have PS+, it is where they sell / the third party game providers sell and they get the bigger slice of digital sales too.

A strategy that makes sense, especially if you are HW production constraints and there is a growing pool of PC players with good enough specs, is to widen your distribution channels and hope / nudge those players to enter the PS HW ecosystem too). Sorry if it skews the next “are you now giving up your PS5 search / are you ready to drop your PS console” thread that appears regularly.

Similar reasons they moved some titles from exclusives to cross generation albeit the bet there is not fully paying off, I am not aware of the PS4 version of those titles driving massive sales/selling more than the PS5 version, do you have a lot of counter examples there?).
sorry if I seemed aggressive to you. I think I sound a lot more unpleasant than I actually am because of how I write in English haha. On topic: It is true right now Sony makes money with ps +. But the goodness of a CEO lies above all in being able to predict what will happen and how the market will change in the coming years. If you allow me I'll make you a example ..... We have heard a lot of rumors in the past about how Xbox could going to cut the cost of Live Gold and honestly all of this would make sense since gamepass PC users (or those who buy multiplayers games) don't pay unlike console users. Let's assume a situation where Sony still find herself charging ps + and still don't have a service that allows to convert ps + subscribers into something else (like gamepass) how long do you think it will take to reorganize a service valid replacement and above all that attracts users without forcing it as happened with paying to play in multiplayer? Sony has to move
 
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Shmunter

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Guys, seriously, in an age where game streaming is coming faster and faster and the Cloud is going wild ... there are still people so stupidly blind that they don't want to see Is the era of consoles as we have known them coming to an end? If Sony does not hurry to make room in a platform (owned by Ms) that does have its own rules and players (Steam, Ms, Epic etc. etc.), and who will surely see others arrive in the future in force (Amazon and Google) could miss the train to lay the foundations for a business without suffering from false starts, since the competition has been waging war for a few years. The slowdown of the chip production made it clear how much generational changes and the abandonment of old platforms (for example from PS3 to PS4 or PS4 to PS5) with exclusives games it is unsustainable today and fundamentally a wrong model. It could have worked in the past when the production time of games and their development cost were half (or less) and therefore the investment risk could have made sense today unfortunately the limit of this model is immediately apparent. Sony knows that for instance Demon Souls remake sold little and did it because there are too few PS5 consoles out there, and even if there was no chip shortage it would have sold infinitely more if released on PC + Console. Here we talking of millions of dollars of difference in a world, that of consoles, where manufacturers have a physical limit in producing a number of hardware that will be every gen more or less always the same (due to production limits, sales timing and generation duration).
All this without counting the other problems brought by the competition, it could happen that you do not have the best performing hardware (as happened this gen to Sony and the last to Microsoft) or that the competition takes 3rd party exclusives leaving you in a bitter mouth. In short, people would do better to wake up and abandon the old mentality because these people will anyway left in the past. Sony's way is evident at this point
I used to think streaming was a major contributor and disruptor in the gaming space. But Google came and went & Xcloud is never talked about. Looking at the long history of Onlive, or PSNow even, etc., the promise of faster internet was always the carrot dangling in front of the tech. And many more have the bandwidth today, fiber, 5g, etc.

It just hasn't worked. Local gaming devices will always offer a better quality of interactivity than a video stream, its why they will always have a place, just like the kitchen toaster, tv set and physical company.

Quality being a factor is easily evident by people scrambling to upgrade their consoles & more so PC's - just to squeeze out every inch of better than best.

That's my take on it.
 
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John Wick

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It will be a minimum 1 year between PS5 and PC release. Otherwise it makes no sense for Sony. Judging by that release date Sony expected H2FW to release in 09/2021 before the delay.
 
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phil_t98

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Looks like they see PC as a viable option to make more money and it looks like they could do this more going forward. Good for those gamers that dont want consoles I guess
 
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MonarchJT

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I used to think streaming was a major contributor and disruptor in the gaming space. But Google came and went & Xcloud is never talked about. Looking at the long history of Onlive, or PSNow even, etc., the promise of faster internet was always the carrot dangling in front of the tech. And many more have the bandwidth today, fiber, 5g, etc.

It just hasn't worked. Local gaming devices will always offer a better quality of interactivity than a video stream, its why they will always have a place, just like the kitchen toaster, tv set and physical company.

Quality being a factor is easily evident by people scrambling to upgrade their consoles & more so PC's - just to squeeze out every inch of better than best.

That's my take on it.
I'm sure that we will have local gaming devices . no one says otherwise or at least not me. But there will be people and pioneers who like they started buying virtual helmets when they still had hundreds of hardware problems (and limitations) they will also do it with streaming and when we finally have streaming capable of being suitable for the consumer world (I'm not talking about hardcore gamers) the streaming will take off. In my opinion it is only a matter of time. Meanwhile, these big gaming companies are looking to expand their market because all the data points to the fact that gamers they are more numerous today than in the past, spend even more and are distributed on multiple platforms. How do you think you can expand the market if you want to stay confined to the (limited by many numbers) way of consoles in 2021?
I'll give a practical example once again, my father a retired former programmer (70+ years) still plays videogames ... Microsoft managed to get him to buy his Flight Sim game and of course he did it on a platform he knew (and even changed it for this game) obv the PC .. surely he would never have bought a console to play (he always hated them). I'm sure there are millions of other glaring examples that companies like ms and Sony could turn into hefty dollars if people stopped assuming that the number of consoles sold today are the end of it all...because it is evident that there are more gamers in the world who do not have consoles than those who do
 
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reksveks

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I used to think streaming was a major contributor and disruptor in the gaming space. But Google came and went & Xcloud is never talked about. Looking at the long history of Onlive, or PSNow even, etc., the promise of faster internet was always the carrot dangling in front of the tech. And many more have the bandwidth today, fiber, 5g, etc.

It just hasn't worked. Local gaming devices will always offer a better quality of interactivity than a video stream, its why they will always have a place, just like the kitchen toaster, tv set and physical company.
I think a part of this is that the companies haven't yet found a killer app. Something like Flight Simulator is getting slightly closer to that though.

I am trying to imagine what a combo of Flight Simulator and Forza looks like if you were to build it with a mind of it being 'cloud native'. I also agree that local gaming will always exist.
 

Rudius

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Today it still makes sense to buy a PS5 due to price to performance, but in a few years a cheap PC or gaming laptop will allow you to play all games from Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo better than on original hardware.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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I think a part of this is that the companies haven't yet found a killer app. Something like Flight Simulator is getting slightly closer to that though.

I am trying to imagine what a combo of Flight Simulator and Forza looks like if you were to build it with a mind of it being 'cloud native'. I also agree that local gaming will always exist.
I don't think streaming needs a killer app. It just needs to work for the average person. Once streaming is on average close enough to the native experience, a lot of people will jump over.
 
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reksveks

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I don't think streaming needs a killer app. It just needs to work for the average person. Once streaming is on average close enough to the native experience, a lot of people will jump over.
Maybe, might depend on who you think the likely 'advocates' are and what they focus on.
 

pasterpl

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This is what a lot of people here are purposefully ignoring. Sony is paying 3rd party pubs left to release time exclusive games on Playstation platform. They sure see time exclusivity as a strategy going forward.
and you are ignoring the fact that almost all of these timed exclusive that Sony paid for also launch on pc day 1, these games are console exclusives. Sony probably see numbers showing that these 3rd party timed exclusives having simultaneous launch across pc and ps doesn’t hurt ps sales so they want to replicate that with their own titles.
 
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Shmunter

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I'm sure that we will have local gaming devices . no one says otherwise or at least not me. But there will be people and pioneers who like they started buying virtual helmets when they still had hundreds of hardware problems (and limitations) they will also do it with streaming and when we finally have streaming capable of being suitable for the consumer world (I'm not talking about hardcore gamers) the streaming will take off. In my opinion it is only a matter of time. Meanwhile, these big gaming companies are looking to expand their market because all the data points to the fact that gamers they are more numerous today than in the past, spend even more and are distributed on multiple platforms. How do you think you can expand the market if you want to stay confined to the (limited by many numbers) way of consoles in 2021?
I'll give a practical example once again, my father a retired former programmer (70+ years) still plays videogames ... Microsoft managed to get him to buy his Flight Sim game and of course he did it on a platform he knew (and even changed it for this game) obv the PC .. surely he would never have bought a console to play (he always hated them). I'm sure there are millions of other glaring examples that companies like ms and Sony could turn into hefty dollars if people stopped assuming that the number of consoles sold today are the end of it all...because it is evident that there are more gamers in the world who do not have consoles than those who do
What’s most baffling about all this is Sony bothering to actually “sell” their games. On the console they exist not to just make profit on the game - but to drive traffic to the eco system where the big bucks are made by platform holders.

It’s really just trying to make every last cent out of the carcass, waste nothing, consume everything, bones, hooves-even if worth little.
 
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YeulEmeralda

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Exactly, I don't understand why people diregard this fact. Consoles are basically PCs nowadays. The still consoles have advantage of the UI and UX being tailor-made for controller use so it's easier to navigate the UI on consoles as well as put them to turn them on/off via controller . Hopefully some of it will improve with new Steam big screen coming with Deck update.

I personally have my PC connected only to my TV. For any PC tasks other than games I just use my laptop.
Same. My GPU came with 4 HDMI2.1 ports.
 

nbkicker

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If this was true then ill happily wait up-to a yr to get a better version on pc, i think for most people they prob havnt got or afford a pc more powerful then the ps5 or like the convenience of playing on tv while on sofa, but for people like me if sony started doing this with all there future games then my ps5 would start to collect dust or id get rid of it
 

Clear

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So if the database itself is real, you assume such a speculative date would make it into this database just made up by Nvidia's to fill the blanks, rather than coming from the source?

And if the latter is true - why would Sony speculate to release the game a year after its PS5 debut? Many of the dates in this file are still correct or were correct until a recent delay.

My point is whether this date is correct really doesn't matter.

What matters is someone at some point decided to set such placeholder release date of a first-party PS5 exclusive, which is more likely to have been done in the agreement with the publisher, or at least according to some timeline planning communications.

Because given both are sequels to PS4 to PC ports, its highly probable that they will end up on PC at some point. Its the timing that's not credible, not their existence.

As to why certain dates are chosen... Who knows? its just entries in a database after all, nothing set in stone.
 

Neofire

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You really need to remember that a PS5 is currently really powerful and not a half baked shit show like last gen. Buying a gaming PC is right now a nightmare. Why spend 1-2000 when you can spend 500 and play the games.

Ability to absorb is only partially related to market cap, I would argue that it's more related to the investor's relationship with the senior team.

However I did want to just double check the numbers:
Microsoft 2.51 trillion USD
Sony Group: 155 billion USD
3 times squared lol
 

Neofire

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A market cap doesn't exist for "absorbing losses". That is essentially stockholder money. Let's not pretend stockholders are going to be willing to part with their investment for the sake of Xbox. You really think they are interested in this console war? "Hell naw"

Xbox as a product would be just as vulnerable if its sales were to tank as PlayStation would be. The real difference is Sony as a company is much more reliant on PlayStation than Microsoft is on Xbox. Thankfully, the point here is that it is even less likely that PlayStation will suffer massive sales losses as a result of PC ports than it was for Xbox. XSX and PlayStation are both in high demand and none of these PC port announcements have changed that at all.



Any company can open up a storefront on PC. That's really just an app. There is just as much "need" to own a PlayStation for console gamers as there is for them to own an Xbox.
Someone is always trying to minimize the liquidity MS has, of course market isnt the only element that determines the amount of investments MS can undertake. You make it seem as though if MS had the same Market cap as Sony or Nintendo they would been able to function in the same manner they have for the last two decades and that is not true.
 
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yurinka

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Exactly. If they're waiting for their next console to always sell more than its predecessor, their business will never grow.

Once again. Yeah, PS+ can give them a lot of money but it will ALWAYS be limited by the number of consoles sold. You have to accept that many people simply won't buy a PS5, no matter how much you love the console. So Sony has a choice to make here - should I keep content and depend solely on the consoles I'll sell this gen, or maybe, think outside of the box and offer our experiences to people that don't want to buy our console?

Because if you're going to wait on consoles sold to drive your business, you will stagnate eventually. Selling their services/games somewhere else will prevent that from happening. Fate/Grand Order, PSNow, Games on PC, all of this has helped them grow as a brand, and none of them are tied to consoles sold. MS understands this, Apple understands this, Google understands this, why wouldn't Sony? If Samsung didn't sell components to other brands, they wouldn't be as big as they are now. Same with Sony on their Camera department.

Also, you seem to forget one thing. This doesn't mean Sony will sell all their games on PC, these games are more like an appetiser for people to see the type of experiences they're missing by not having a Playstation. Offering some of your services on other platforms can act as a Trojan horse to actually sell more of your products. Apple Music exists on Android and Windows, but the premium experience is within the Apple platform. Youtube exists on iPhone, but its integration on Android with all the other Google services makes it enticing to switch (even though Google services are pretty good on iOS). MS is the only one playing differently, but that's because it's a win win situation for them. You sell your services on another platform and even if you don't get those people to switch, you will still have their money anyway.

The PS6 will exist if Sony still has their focus on home consoles (which I doubt they will ever abandon unless streaming because like a 1:1 experience somehow), they won't become solely a PC publisher in the future, that doesn't make any sense. These recent moves don't take away the focus from the console itself, it simply helps expand the brand and open its doors to future growth.

Growth = success, it is what it is. Playstation is more than a console, it's a brand now.




They are growing in revenue, profits and install base. Notice in the last image they also plan to increase their market share in the console market this generation.

And well, they now monetize way more each user, hardware sales are less important to them, as they get more money than before due to digital games being more profitable than physical games, games now featuring DLC and MTX, the growing importance of subscriptions, etc.

They will use mobile games, movies and pc ports as extra revenue to keep growing, but also as you mention as trojan horse to sell more consoles because that would help them increase their main business: to sell (primarly 3rd party) software for it.


 
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MOTM

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They are growing in revenue, profits and install base. Notice in the last image they also plan to increase their market share in the console market this generation.

And well, they now monetize way more each user, hardware sales are less important to them, as they get more money than before due to digital games being more profitable than physical games, games now featuring DLC and MTX, the growing importance of subscriptions, etc.


What a bunch of useless charts.

PS2 sold more than the PS3 and PS4 despite selling less in the 1st year.

So yeah they are doing the right thing by expanding to PC. Can’t just pray that the console market will magically grow forever especially since they never reached the heights they did with the PS2.
 

yurinka

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I don't think streaming needs a killer app. It just needs to work for the average person. Once streaming is on average close enough to the native experience, a lot of people will jump over.
I agree, I think that assuming it has a good overall catalog a specific killer app won't be needed in the same way that consoles, mobile or PC never needed a specific killer app. But I think it will depend on the pricing. Most players buy on average a game or two per year, so I don't see them paying $15/month ($180/year) for games.

What a bunch of useless charts.

PS2 sold more than the PS3 and PS4 despite selling less in the 1st year.

So yeah they are doing the right thing by expanding to PC. Can’t just pray that the console market will magically grow forever especially since they never reached the heights they did with the PS2.
These aren't useless charts, they prove they are making way more revenue and profit now that back in the PS2 times and that they are growing their business. In fact they are making now more revenue than any console maker ever did in gaming history. And they are growing both their revenue and profit.

They make more money with less consoles sold because thier players on average now buy more games, and on top of that they also buy DLC, MTX and subscriptions.

The growth of the console market shown in one of the charts isn't magical growing. It's just the continuation of the growth pattern we had since decades ago.

And well, they already were making more game than in the PS2 generation before starting to port old games to PC.

Revenue from first party games is a very small part of the money that their gaming division does. Porting some old games won't help them grow a lot. Even porting all of them day one. Their main business is to sell software for PS, and the big majority of the PS software sold is 3rd party. PC will continue being a tiny portion of their business, they only make these PC ports because budgets of AAA games are getting insane so with the ports they get an extra revenue share to make the games more profitable and less risky, and use them also as bait to make them people to buy a console to play their sequels and also to reach and monetize players who will never buy a console.

sorry if I seemed aggressive to you. I think I sound a lot more unpleasant than I actually am because of how I write in English haha. On topic: It is true right now Sony makes money with ps +. But the goodness of a CEO lies above all in being able to predict what will happen and how the market will change in the coming years. If you allow me I'll make you a example ..... We have heard a lot of rumors in the past about how Xbox could going to cut the cost of Live Gold and honestly all of this would make sense since gamepass PC users (or those who buy multiplayers games) don't pay unlike console users. Let's assume a situation where Sony still find herself charging ps + and still don't have a service that allows to convert ps + subscribers into something else (like gamepass) how long do you think it will take to reorganize a service valid replacement and above all that attracts users without forcing it as happened with paying to play in multiplayer? Sony has to move
Sony makes more revenue and profit with their game subscriptions than MS. Has a bigger amount of subscribers, a bigger catalog, more experience with streaming and they do it without putting there big AAA games day one. They do it mostly with games they already completed their sales cycle selling them both at full price or discounted.

They also sell more consoles, more games/dlc/mtx for their stores (their main revenue source) and first party games. They also cover VR and are starting to approach mobile (they already make a lot of money there) and PC too. Even investing on eSports. They are aggresively growing their internal teams and they are acquiring new ones, while securing also big 2nd and 3rd party exclusives. They are also using their gaming IPs in movies and tv shows and working in other collaborations with their movie, music, anime etc divisions/departments. Their gaming division makes more money than any gaming division of a console maker ever did and they are growing.

As CEO you can't ask him for more, they are covering basically all fronts. Maybe the only one is to cover NFTs in gaming to monopolize that market too as pioneers in console as they were with other markets like streaming or VR.
 
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MonarchJT

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A market cap doesn't exist for "absorbing losses". That is essentially stockholder money. Let's not pretend stockholders are going to be willing to part with their investment for the sake of Xbox. You really think they are interested in this console war? "Hell naw"

Xbox as a product would be just as vulnerable if its sales were to tank as PlayStation would be. The real difference is Sony as a company is much more reliant on PlayStation than Microsoft is on Xbox. Thankfully, the point here is that it is even less likely that PlayStation will suffer massive sales losses as a result of PC ports than it was for Xbox. XSX and PlayStation are both in high demand and none of these PC port announcements have changed that at all.
Sony (entire company) largest M&A:

Sony to Acquire Full Control of Financial Unit for $3.7 Billion (2020)

Sony buys EMI Music Publishing for $2.3bn (2018)

Sony Pictures India agrees to invest $1.6bn in merger with Zee Entertainment (2021)

Sony’s Funimation Completes Acquisition of Crunchyroll for $1.175 billion (2021)

SIE (Playstation division) largest M&A:

Insomniac Games for $229 million (2019)

all together around 9 bn

Ms Xbox largest M&A:

ZeniMax for $8.1 billion (2020)

Microsoft Has Acquired Minecraft For $2.5 Billion | TechCrunch

just this are enough to show the differences in the ability to spend money. Let's stop appearing two incomparable things
Playstation will never spend 4 or 5bn in a single m&a at least seeing how Sony has always behaved. So the marketcap seem to work
 
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Bernd Lauert

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Most players buy on average a game or two per year, so I don't see them paying $15/month ($180/year) for games.
It's not just games, it's the fact that you don't have to buy hardware anymore, and that you can play on almost any device you own. It adds a lot to the perceived value.
 

mejin

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I can’t believe some people are trying to convince that Sony releasing their games on PC is somehow going to end up in less revenue for them …

But it is also a delusion to think day one games on playstation and PC is just like 1+1 = profits.

Every time we don't have all the infos and data, the people who are skeptic is right in the end.
 

yurinka

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It's not just games, it's the fact that you don't have to buy hardware anymore, and that you can play on almost any device you own. It adds a lot to the perceived value.
True, this is a good point. If you'll be able to play your games streamed to any tv, phone, tablet, pc etc you won't need a console.

I can’t believe some people are trying to convince that Sony releasing their games on PC is somehow going to end up in less revenue for them …
A PS Studios game sold in Steam means 30% of that revenue goes to Valve. That same game sold in PS means Sony gets 100% of that revenue plus that game acts as selling point to sell consoles. On average, PS4 players bough 14 games (+DLC+MTX+subscriptions) that if 3rd party gave 30% of that revenue to Sony. The exclusives are one of the main selling points for these consoles, and that 30% from third parties on console is by far their main business, so they need to keep exclusive games on their consoles to keep selling them.

So to sell these games on PS gives them more revenue directly and indirectly and are key for their business. This means they must keep some games there exclusive forever and at least many other ones exclusive in console during some years. It's hard to believe they would release all their games on PC and to do it day one or very close to their console launch. If instead of doing that, they only port some of their games and they released them on PC several years after their console release, it won't negatively affect their sales: the PC ports would only be a nice secondary revenue source to make sure their huge AAA budget aren't that risky. This is why they only port some games to PC and not all, and why they wait at least a couple of years before release them on PC, once they already sold all what they could in console, discounted them, included them in PS+ and/or PS Now, etc.
 
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MOTM

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But it is also a delusion to think day one games on playstation and PC is just like 1+1 = profits.

Every time we don't have all the infos and data, the people who are skeptic is right in the end.
Please explain how this could possibly lead to less revenue/profit for Sony?

Given the fact that Sony make their money off of SW and Services not HW sales.

Also Sony has all the data and info. Are you telling me the people on this forum are right and Sony is wrong?
 

reksveks

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PS Studios game sold in Steam means 30% of that revenue goes to Valve.
I am 99% confident that the Sony releases get to the 20% revenue split but your underlying point stands. It's why I don't get why they don't have a PC store yet but maybe that's in the roadmap.
 

MonarchJT

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I agree, I think that assuming it has a good overall catalog a specific killer app won't be needed in the same way that consoles, mobile or PC never needed a specific killer app. But I think it will depend on the pricing. Most players buy on average a game or two per year, so I don't see them paying $15/month ($180/year) for games.


These aren't useless charts, they prove they are making way more revenue and profit now that back in the PS2 times and that they are growing their business. In fact they are making now more revenue than any console maker ever did in gaming history. And they are growing both their revenue and profit.

They make more money with less consoles sold because thier players on average now buy more games, and on top of that they also buy DLC, MTX and subscriptions.

The growth of the console market shown in one of the charts isn't magical growing. It's just the continuation of the growth pattern we had since decades ago.

And well, they already were making more game than in the PS2 generation before starting to port old games to PC.

Revenue from first party games is a very small part of the money that their gaming division does. Porting some old games won't help them grow a lot. Even porting all of them day one. Their main business is to sell software for PS, and the big majority of the PS software sold is 3rd party. PC will continue being a tiny portion of their business, they only make these PC ports because budgets of AAA games are getting insane so with the ports they get an extra revenue share to make the games more profitable and less risky, and use them also as bait to make them people to buy a console to play their sequels and also to reach and monetize players who will never buy a console.


Sony makes more revenue and profit with their game subscriptions than MS. Has a bigger amount of subscribers, a bigger catalog, more experience with streaming and they do it without putting there big AAA games day one. They do it mostly with games they already completed their sales cycle selling them both at full price or discounted.

They also sell more consoles, more games/dlc/mtx for their stores (their main revenue source) and first party games. They also cover VR and are starting to approach mobile (they already make a lot of money there) and PC too. Even investing on eSports. They are aggresively growing their internal teams and they are acquiring new ones, while securing also big 2nd and 3rd party exclusives. They are also using their gaming IPs in movies and tv shows and working in other collaborations with their movie, music, anime etc divisions/departments. Their gaming division makes more money than any gaming division of a console maker ever did and they are growing.

As CEO you can't ask him for more, they are covering basically all fronts. Maybe the only one is to cover NFTs in gaming to monopolize that market too as pioneers in console as they were with other markets like streaming or VR.
is absolutely true today but my opinion is that i don't see playstation well placed for the future . The platform to which everyone is converging was based on Ms' proprietary operating system and on which Ms decides several things if not all and the only thing Sony could do would be to create a store within the Ms platform against steam and epic (and we all know how much PC users love steam), The paid services that are successful today on PlayStation console (ps+ I think you mean) could not be replicated on PC and they work as long as it is a walled garden like that of the console, although I do not know what would happen if Microsoft on their console would eliminate the live Gold price as has been rumored for some time. Sony does not own Cloud servers and although it has acquired onlive and its servers are not even enough to make psnow available in all regions, it will find itself in a situation where it will have to subtract the cost of renting servers or finding agreements where will have to grant something (i.e. image Sensors tech to Ms for azure). in conclusion surely releasing your games and slowly disengaging from the walls of the console platform is the best of roads and we will certainly see ps + replaced with a service that can be replicated on PC (ala gamepass)
 
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mejin

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Please explain how this could possibly lead to less revenue/profit for Sony?

Given the fact that Sony make their money off of SW and Services not HW sales.

Also Sony has all the data and info. Are you telling me the people on this forum are right and Sony is wrong?

I'm telling you no one knows what the future reserves for Sony with this possible day one strategy. A game sold on their own ecosystem gets them more money than selling on a different platform, this is basic. Services like Plus is not necessary on a PC is another simple observation.

With the info and data Sony has I'd say they're betting the people who play only on PC will overshadow the cons of losing people who would invest on a playstation hardware and their own ecosystem buying games, dlcs and services. Maybe Jimbo is right or maybe he's fucking Playstation medium to long term, who knows. And it's not like he'll be there to take responsability for it, others will have to lead with the consequences anyway.

You can go either route with your opinion, you're not necessarily wrong cause we still don't know what are the impacts for the Playstation ecosystem.

Just remember it took Kaz Hirai some good years to put Sony back on the right tracks. Bad decisions happens.
 

yurinka

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I am 99% confident that the Sony releases get to the 20% revenue split but your underlying point stands. It's why I don't get why they don't have a PC store yet but maybe that's in the roadmap.
As I remember Steam keeps over 80% of the PC market, and many PC players for some reason don't want other launchers and stores. So many people made their own store which failed to get a big market share, and ended releasing their own games on Steam too. I think that during several years Sony will keep a low profile on PC, slowly building a PC library of old games plus some new F2P? GaaS game. Will try to find the right spot of releasing their old game ports as close as possible to the original release without affecting sales in console. I bet the sweet spot will be around 2-3 years.

And then, several years later, once people gets used to see PS games on PC, once they get a relatively big library and fanbase on PC they will release their own PC store and launcher. Probably matching it to when streaming gets bigger, so they would have a single multiplatform PSN store and the game you buy there can be streamed in PC, console or mobile, becoming playable offline in console and -if available- on PC.
 

Swift_Star

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Isnt the same for any game, which uses real location?

I am talking about the experience of things that you cant do it. Things like fishing, sailing in the sea and singing shanty songs. Things like doing quests, so that finally you own an ingame house.

These small things make the game good experience.
Northern mythology uses real location... Where? Oh, so you can fight trolls in real life? And you can climb gigantic robot dinosaurs in real life? Huh, where?
Isn't FH5 set in Mexico? I thought that was a real place. And you actually can sail the seas, fish and sing shanty songs irl, lmao. Nah, you're just fanboying, stop.
 
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Topher

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Sony (entire company) largest M&A:

Sony to Acquire Full Control of Financial Unit for $3.7 Billion (2020)

Sony buys EMI Music Publishing for $2.3bn (2018)

Sony Pictures India agrees to invest $1.6bn in merger with Zee Entertainment (2021)

Sony’s Funimation Completes Acquisition of Crunchyroll for $1.175 billion (2021)

SIE (Playstation division) largest M&A:

Insomniac Games for $229 million (2019)

all together around 9 bn

Ms Xbox largest M&A:

ZeniMax for $8.1 billion (2020)

Microsoft Has Acquired Minecraft For $2.5 Billion | TechCrunch

just this are enough to show the differences in the ability to spend money. Let's stop appearing two incomparable things
Playstation will never spend 4 or 5bn in a single m&a at least seeing how Sony has always behaved. So the marketcap seem to work

What point do you think you made here? That Microsoft has outspent Sony in acquisitions? Uh....yes, that is true. Doesn't have anything to do with what was said at all. This was dealing with a hypothetical situation where Xbox or PlayStation were losing money. If Xbox were seen as a poor investment then Microsoft wouldn't have made those acquisitions. That's not the case though clearly.
 
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MikeM

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How much?

I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Need to see Sony commit further/completely to PC prior to selling the PS5.

Guys, seriously, in an age where game streaming is coming faster and faster and the Cloud is going wild ... there are still people so stupidly blind that they don't want to see Is the era of consoles as we have known them coming to an end? If Sony does not hurry to make room in a platform (owned by Ms) that does have its own rules and players (Steam, Ms, Epic etc. etc.), and who will surely see others arrive in the future in force (Amazon and Google) could miss the train to lay the foundations for a business without suffering from false starts, since the competition has been waging war for a few years. The slowdown of the chip production made it clear how much generational changes and the abandonment of old platforms (for example from PS3 to PS4 or PS4 to PS5) with exclusives games it is unsustainable today and fundamentally a wrong model. It could have worked in the past when the production time of games and their development cost were half (or less) and therefore the investment risk could have made sense today unfortunately the limit of this model is immediately apparent. Sony knows that for instance Demon Souls remake sold little and did it because there are too few PS5 consoles out there, and even if there was no chip shortage it would have sold infinitely more if released on PC + Console. Here we talking of millions of dollars of difference in a world, that of consoles, where manufacturers have a physical limit in producing a number of hardware that will be every gen more or less always the same (due to production limits, sales timing and generation duration).
All this without counting the other problems brought by the competition, it could happen that you do not have the best performing hardware (as happened this gen to Sony and the last to Microsoft) or that the competition takes 3rd party exclusives leaving you in a bitter mouth. In short, people would do better to wake up and abandon the old mentality because these people will anyway left in the past. Sony's way is evident at this point
I have fibe lines coming to my house and still find the latency to be bad whenever I am streaming games. It may work for some, but imagine trying to play a twitch shooter streaming? Oof... still a lot of maturity of the systems to be done prior to this being a real threat to consoles.
 
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yurinka

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is absolutely true today but my opinion is that i don't see playstation well placed for the future . The platform to which everyone is converging was based on Ms' proprietary operating system and on which Ms decides several things if not all and the only thing Sony could do would be to create a store within the Ms platform against steam and epic (and we all know how much PC users love steam), The paid services that are successful today on PlayStation console (ps+ I think you mean) could not be replicated on PC and they work as long as it is a walled garden like that of the console, although I do not know what would happen if Microsoft on their console would eliminate the live Gold price as has been rumored for some time. Sony does not own Cloud servers and although it has acquired onlive and its servers are not even enough to make psnow available in all regions, it will find itself in a situation where it will have to subtract the cost of renting servers or finding agreements where will have to grant something (i.e. image Sensors tech to Ms for azure). in conclusion surely releasing your games and slowly disengaging from the walls of the console platform is the best of roads and we will certainly see ps + replaced with a service that can be replicated on PC (ala gamepass)
The typical AAA/AA games we play on PS, Xbox or Steam sell mostly on PS. They aren't only well positioned for selling consoles and games, they are also well positioned for game subscriptions, streaming, VR and eSports. They aren't only growing in console and also expanding to PC and mobile, they also plan to use PC and mobile to grow in new regions like Asia (China, Russia) and South America, which also may helpd thm to grow more in console.

MS gets 0 money from games sold in Steam, Epic Store and other stores not owned by them. Soon with Steam OS you won't even need Windows to play basically all PC games.

PS Now and Xcloud are limited to some countries because it's expensive to put more servers. It's possible, there are thousands of data centers around the globe so they only have to pay a fee and send them their own servers (yes, Sony made PS Now specific servers, one using PS3 hardware and other one using PS4 hardware) to cover that area. But they don't do it to cover the whole world because the cost would be too high, so they limit it to the areas where they have the majority of their customers and where there is a decent internet infrastructure and connections. As soon as they keep improving their streaming tech, and as ISP get improving their internet connections, and as they keep improving the business model and increasing the amount of devices supported to act as client (PS Now soon will be released for smartphones, tablets and smart tvs and working over 5g and not only via normal internet), they will keep opening in new countries.

As of now they don't cover more countries because the conditions still aren't the needed ones. But yes, once Sony considers it's the time for them to scale the service to provide global coverage they will be able to put servers in all countries. The physical cost of making a server, store it in a 3rd party data center, to pay thei internet, electricity and maintenance required for it is the same for Sony and MS. Or for any other company who owns any service/website/game/etc. Azure is only a software to manage servers, there are other options, and cheaper ones, that do the same. This kind of software also has the option of using their servers instead of using 3rd party data centers or your own ones, but most companies store most of their servers in 3rd party data centers (who are outsourced by many companies at the same time including Azure, their competitions or services, websites and apps).

In addition to this, Sony could expand PS+ to PC if required, but as of now doesn't make sense because they don't have enough games on PC to include it there. Only common sense stops them from doing it. They already have PS Now on PC for that, there's no reason to want to expand PS+ to PC. Game subscriptions are a tiny part of the gaming business, in that area their plans to grow is to expand PS Now to mobile and tvs, plus to bring it to more countries, plus to improve its catalog, technology and business model. These things make more common sense than to bring PS+ to PC. Another thing that I think would make sense would be to release worldwide a cheaper, download only version of PS Now (for console only) with no streaming and to merge it with PS+.
 
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Topher

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Someone is always trying to minimize the liquidity MS has, of course market isnt the only element that determines the amount of investments MS can undertake. You make it seem as though if MS had the same Market cap as Sony or Nintendo they would been able to function in the same manner they have for the last two decades and that is not true.

Someone is trying to embellish what the market cap means for Xbox. Investments? That isn't what was said at all. This was about surviving losses. The problem here is you are confusing overall Microsoft with the part of it that is Xbox. If Xbox became an overall negative aspect of Microsoft then it would be vulnerable, just as PlayStation would. Companies invest in order to see a return on that investment. Gaming is clearly a good investment right now. If the Xbox today were floundering in the same way that Xbox One did at launch and the prospects of a turn around were grim then all the market cap in the world would not have saved Xbox.

Guys, seriously, in an age where game streaming is coming faster and faster and the Cloud is going wild ... there are still people so stupidly blind that they don't want to see Is the era of consoles as we have known them coming to an end?

I'm amazed that there are people like you still that believe a new market means the death of the existing market. You've got record demand for consoles and local hardware and the availability of cloud streaming hasn't slowed that down one bit. But yeah......keep your faith. I'm sure the end really is nigh.

Simpsons Apocalypse GIF
 
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MonarchJT

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Someone is trying to embellish what the market cap means for Xbox. Investments? That isn't what was said at all. This was about surviving losses. The problem here is you are confusing overall Microsoft with the part of it that is Xbox. If Xbox became an overall negative aspect of Microsoft then it would be vulnerable, just as PlayStation would. Companies invest in order to see a return on that investment. Gaming is clearly a good investment right now. If the Xbox today were floundering in the same way that Xbox One did at launch and the prospects of a turn around were grim then all the market cap in the world would not have saved Xbox.
that's absolutely true ...but you are wrong in one thing .. we are almost all certain that certain expenses that Microsoft has made for Xbox have been made in the negative but we also know well that at least one of being has earned after (Minecraft) so when you talk about "the importance of PlayStation for Sony is greater than that of Xbox for Microsoft" it is all so relative that one only laughs to read about it if then we see that they are the two largest Xbox gaming acquisitions, overwhelm the total of all Sony acquisitions of the whole company, and that if we go to sift through the expenses that Sony makes in m & to those PlayStation probably do not even fall within the top 10 while I bet that Bethesda was one of the biggest acquisitions that Microsoft has had as a Company. acquisitions that Microsoft has had as a Company.
 

Papacheeks

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Just my personal take but yeah

The old Fable applies here about putting a frog in a boiling pot of water he will jump out but put him in cool water and slowly turn up the heat he will not notice the danger and slowly boil to death.

Sony is in the process of turning up the "heat"

We will see day one PS exclusives launch on PC eventually, too much money there to ignore.

I think having a tier release grows anticipation on the PC side in having a lot of day one purchases on PC launch day.
 

quest

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Please explain how this could possibly lead to less revenue/profit for Sony?

Given the fact that Sony make their money off of SW and Services not HW sales.

Also Sony has all the data and info. Are you telling me the people on this forum are right and Sony is wrong?
Easy the real money is made selling 3rd party games, plus and 3rd party dlc. Selling less hardware equals less of all that. Selling a few copies on steam at a discount minus lord gaben's 30% cut hardly makes up for that. Not like they are selling 10 million copies at 70 dollars.
 

yurinka

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boy i wish it would get that popular

In Steam Deck will be, but I think Steam Deck will be a very small portion of PC gaming.

Depending on how well that Proton works to make sure it runs almost 100% of the Windows games and apps I think it may even can end being popular among PC gamers, specially if due to having less overhead provides extra performance compared to PC. But I'm not confident on that, and even if it's the case I think most people will stuck with their Windows.
 
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Topher

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that's absolutely true ...but you are wrong in one thing .. we are almost all certain that certain expenses that Microsoft has made for Xbox have been made in the negative but we also know well that at least one of being has earned after (Minecraft) so when you talk about "the importance of PlayStation for Sony is greater than that of Xbox for Microsoft" it is all so relative that one only laughs to read about it if then we see that they are the two largest Xbox gaming acquisitions, overwhelm the total of all Sony acquisitions of the whole company, and that if we go to sift through the expenses that Sony makes in m & to those PlayStation probably do not even fall within the top 10 while I bet that Bethesda was one of the biggest acquisitions that Microsoft has had as a Company. acquisitions that Microsoft has had as a Company.

With Minecraft, we are talking about a game that is available on every single platform available and remains so even in recent years with newer iterations. Minecraft was a low-risk, high reward investment that was not dependent on the Xbox console at all.

The simple fact of the matter is that Xbox desperately needed to make acquisitions while PlayStation did not.
 

MonarchJT

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The typical AAA/AA games we play on PS, Xbox or Steam sell mostly on PS. They aren't only well positioned for selling consoles and games, they are also well positioned for game subscriptions, streaming, VR and eSports. They aren't only growing in console and also expanding to PC and mobile, they also plan to use PC and mobile to grow in new regions like Asia (China, Russia) and South America, which also may helpd thm to grow more in console.

MS gets 0 money from games sold in Steam, Epic Store and other stores not owned by them. Soon with Steam OS you won't even need Windows to play basically all PC games.

PS Now and Xcloud are limited to some countries because it's expensive to put more servers. It's possible, there are thousands of data centers around the globe so they only have to pay a fee and send them their own servers (yes, Sony made PS Now specific servers, one using PS3 hardware and other one using PS4 hardware) to cover that area. But they don't do it to cover the whole world because the cost would be too high, so they limit it to the areas where they have the majority of their customers and where there is a decent internet infrastructure and connections. As soon as they keep improving their streaming tech, and as ISP get improving their internet connections, and as they keep improving the business model and increasing the amount of devices supported to act as client (PS Now soon will be released for smartphones, tablets and smart tvs and working over 5g and not only via normal internet), they will keep opening in new countries.

As of now they don't cover more countries because the conditions still aren't the needed ones. But yes, once Sony considers it's the time for them to scale the service to provide global coverage they will be able to put servers in all countries. The physical cost of making a server, store it in a 3rd party data center, to pay thei internet, electricity and maintenance required for it is the same for Sony and MS. Or for any other company who owns any service/website/game/etc. Azure is only a software to manage servers, there are other options, and cheaper ones, that do the same. This kind of software also has the option of using their servers instead of using 3rd party data centers or your own ones, but most companies store most of their servers in 3rd party data centers (who are outsourced by many companies at the same time including Azure, their competitions or services, websites and apps).

In addition to this, Sony could expand PS+ to PC if required, but as of now doesn't make sense because they don't have enough games on PC to include it there. Only common sense stops them from doing it. They already have PS Now on PC for that, there's no reason to want to expand PS+ to PC. Game subscriptions are a tiny part of the gaming business, in that area their plans to grow is to expand PS Now to mobile and tvs, plus to bring it to more countries, plus to improve its catalog, technology and business model. These things make more common sense than to bring PS+ to PC. Another thing that I think would make sense would be to release worldwide a cheaper, download only version of PS Now (for console only) with no streaming and to merge it with PS+.
honestly you wrote lots (LOTS) of wrong things and lots of unlikely assumptions

I don't know in what reality you can compare the servers owned by Sony acquired with the small Onlive with what is Azure and Xbox has available with Xcloud. They are these investments behind such an infrastructure are so huge that I don't think Sony could grant them for the PlayStation division at the moment and in the near future. And you will understand for yourself that renting servers definitely costs X times more than owning them and being able to make money on them (check the earnings of azure and Xcloud expense)
Psnow which was an acquisition for Sony (gaikai+onlive), in view of the future that is starting in this days, is a commercial failure from all points of view it was so bad that Sony herself took the app off its televisions because it couldn't even guarantee access to the service in the vast majority of cities. It is (a failure) also from the point of view of number of users. For this I bet that within this gen we will see a rebrand and a relaunch under another name.
Ms does not take money for any software sold on PC (unless there is some copyright for some stuff that it makes money behind the scenes as it happens onevery device sold with Android on) but the Windows platform is theirs and then decides what DirectX support and what not and who decides which API to push (directstorage say something?) or deprecate and if that's not enough you will find only one store and advertising integrated into the operating system and it will only be Xbox in fact we have Gamepass integration inside windows 11. Gliding over and glossing over how interested Microsoft is in pushing its Windows platform always makes me smile when talking to someone who seems to be against it.
I'm about to going out can't write longer right now
 
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