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Horizon Zero Dawn for PC confirms poor ports will run poorly on PC

TheTechnician

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Dec 23, 2019
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Okay here is the Thing - this Gen is full of Comparisons from all kinds of Tech Outlets wich seemingly have proven that even an GTX 750ti is able to outperforme a PS4. Especialy DF was keen with such Videos\ Articles.

But they all did not honor the fact that those cases were entirely Third Party Games. From Publishers like EA and Activision. Those Devs for shure did not use much of PS4 low Level API GNM but rather the high level one GNMX. This kind of Development is faster and cheaper because the GNMX high Level API is an complete all in one solution wich gives the Programmers all the tools they need for certain tasks. But it will never use that Hardware to full extent..

We can assume now that Sonys AAA Studios make full use of all Hardware Funktions that came with PS4.

John Carmack made a statement at the beginning of this gen that PS4 should roughly equate to a PC with the double TF Power. He got alot of flak for that ...

But that there were allways Pointers wich supported the Assumption of an Console hardware edge over similar PC. Even when there were no Exclusives yet ported to PC. Even without them we could come to that conclusion byjust the use of proper logic.

For one :
We saw how Third Party AAA Games looked and how they performed on PS4 the entire Gen. Many of those games looked okay or even good and rare cases combined that with even solid performance.
But then we saw Sonys AAA Exclusives wich almost all of them had in combination :
A bigger scope
much better graphics
and they did all this with even better performance most of the time.

It is easy to wipe that all aside with by saying:,, yeah Sony just gave them more Time\ Money. This actually could be true in most cases but this still does not funktion as an point against wat is discussed here, since:

"More Time" equates to more in depth Development, more optimisation, to better use of Hardware.
"More Money" equates to more experts being hired who have deep knowledge about Hardware and or also to "more time"

So now that all know where iam comming from - lets look into especially HZD. Theres a Case in Point also with Detroid Become Human (wich also shows better performance on PS4 than on similar PC hardware) but i want to keep it simple here and use only one game .

Interstingly enough there are now 2 former PS4 Exclusives wich also sharing the same Engine. Of course i talk here about the Decima Engine and HZD and Death Stranding. Death Stranding however i think will distort this Picture i like to draw here .
For one Reason - i think it does not squeeze as much out of PS4 as HZD does. Why ? There are several Points here:

It was developed by a smaller Team in shorter time with a smaller Budget and those Developers did not have as much expierience with the Engine than Guerilla Games
wich must logicly result in less optimised code!

Then by just looking at it, it comes across , although looking impressive, as an empty desert in comparision to HZD. One could even think it looks like a HZD version in wich someone removed by console command all foliage. If this happens in a PC game the expectations would be that the frames per second would rise since so many things are not drawn anymore by the GPU.
And if you know that then you could even drive this train of thought further by saying - simply by having no foliage and trees to draw - there is ad all the time more sky to see than in HZD. More sky = less triangles \ shaders drawn.
Before i finaly talk about HZD in specific i want to say that in my opinion the only real challenge Death Stranding takled was its "Black Water Dimension". ( the better animations and motion captures i ignore here because they realy mean only more extras and do not contribute to anything code based) Mainly so because the Game must have that entire sublevel ready in ram allmost all of the time because it could happen nearly everywhere that you got pulled in and they did not bother with a long load screen.

Okay so finaly:
With the release of HZD on PC we have now one of the best and graphical impressive PS4 Game on PC to Study what kind of Hardware start to struggle on PS4 Settings and thus we can narrow down what the realworld Performance realy is in PS4.

Disclaimer:
I know that PS4s Jaguar Cores have no real Desktop Equivalent - so we need to choose the CPUs wisely to not have an to performant CPU wich would be unfair towards PS4 with its Netbook CPU. One of the main Points in arguing the Theory that Console Hardware has an performance edge over PC is that the CPU has way less Draw Call overhead. It is this reason only why those weak Netbook CPU could even be used as a gaming CPU.
Only in a very efficient Console Enviroment such a weak CPU could be used for proper gaming.
So i focused on searching Youtube Videos of HZD being played with an FX 8300... an 8Core CPU wich for shure should run circles around PS4s jaguar. Yeah that is what i do - i look around in Youtube since i dont have several Rigs to swap CPUs and GPUs .. ;)

Okay:

so here is an Example of HZD being played with an FX 8300 and an RX 460 4Gb a 2.1 TFlop Card and 12Gb Ram.

later in the Video it is shown running at 1080p at PS4 settings and barely holds 30Fps. Even at 900p it drops under 30Fps. So we know that PS4 Version for shure would need to run with uncapped framerate around mid 40FPS to have an big enough treshold to garantee a looked 30 in even the heaviest battles with many robots and Alpha Effects.

here the Game is running with an even better Card - an RX 470 - almost 5Tflop @ 1680x 1050 Resolution like crap. Okay clearly CPu bound but that only proves that even an FX 8300 cannot make up with all its spare power in comparision to the Jaguar for the Console efficiency!


here a FX 6300 - a 6 Core CPU but i would assume since the PS4 Games also use like 6,5 Cores only of the 8 that even that CPu sould be fine to compare. Its bundeld with an GTX 960 an 2,4Tflop Card and the game runs around low 30s with in gerneral weaker settings as PS4 @ 1080p. Sure the card has only 2GB of Ram but iwould even sometimes compare it to such Cards because we did hear alot of that : ,, Okay PS4 has 8GB of GDDR5 but PCs can have always like 16GB of additional main Ram" Arguments :D


okay there are many more Videos out there who support me here but i guess as a bonus we take a look how the infamous i3 4130 \ GTX 750ti Combo from Digital Foundry ( remember it did very often even beat PS4 but the reasons for that i explained already way up there) themselfs does on a proper first party Title.


so here we have no frame counter but even with i guess 1366x 768 it runs on minimum like crap and surely not with 30fps.

next vid is again a GTX 750ti but this time bundled with an ryzen 5 3600 - so clearly GPU bound here..


it is struggeling with 900p on almost every setting on low..

Okay the last two Videos do nothing in terms of proving the PS4s Edge in Hardware since the GTX 750ti is hopelessly weak in comparison to the PS4s GPU but since we now HOW OFTEN this Card especially in those DF Comparisions did well against PS4, we know how bad some of these Third Party Games must have made use of PS4s capabilitys. Remember - all components in PS4 are actually underclocked - if you use only or mainly High level API GNMX you basicly aproach PS4s GPU as a normal Desktop Card with that Clockspeeds. In such a scenario PS4 must lose...

Okay that should be it for now. I hope it is readable what i put togheter here. Expect any responses to this from me not too early - it is 1:26 am here in germany now and i need to work tomorrow ;)

until then bye!
 
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Abriael_GN

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Two cases:

1: you're arguing that PS4 runs the game better than a PC with a similar hardware configuration as the console, in which case it's a no-brainer and you didn't need to write a wall of text for it. PCs are less specialized machines and a PC with a similar hardware configuration as a PS4 would be considered a piece of junk nowadays for gaming.

2: you're arguing that consoles have an edge over PC in general, in which case this is a terrible take. This is simply a very badly optimized port and Death Stranding, running on the same engine, proves you wrong.
 
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TheTechnician

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Dec 23, 2019
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i dont think it is that much of a shitty port , the game has bugs yeah but performacne wise - i guess not.

Why Death Stranding does indeed not prove me wrong i especially wrote up there - at least read all of it plz.
to Siri:
your comments means you do not understand the point of that Thread \ Hypothesis
it is not a take against PCs. Read again plz
 

ACESHIGH

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May 16, 2020
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Lol, talk about a cherrypicked comparison!!!

HZD is a worse port than Batman AK and Nier Automata put together. Please make that comparison once the port is fixed.

I played this whole generation with an fx 6300 + 8 gb of RAM and a GTX 760 2 GB. The Kepler arch aged like milk but I still was able to get better performance vs the PS4 in 90% of games. There were a few outliers like Nier Automata (terrible port) and the ID Tech 6 games. If my GTX 760 had 4GB of VRAM I would have no problem playing today. And if I went with a 7950 instead it would have been much better down the line. That card runs games really good until today.
 

TheTechnician

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Dec 23, 2019
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ah ssems like i stay anyway to answer hahah

Lol, talk about a cherrypicked comparison!!!

HZD is a worse port than Batman AK and Nier Automata put together. Please make that comparison once the port is fixed.

I played this whole generation with an fx 6300 + 8 gb of RAM and a GTX 760 2 GB. The Kepler arch aged like milk but I still was able to get better performance vs the PS4 in 90% of games. There were a few outliers like Nier Automata (terrible port) and the ID Tech 6 games. If my GTX 760 had 4GB of VRAM I would have no problem playing today. And if I went with a 7950 instead it would have been much better down the line. That card runs games really good until today.

you think a less capable GPU should outperform a more efficient Console Hardware? Why i think GTX 750ti won most of the times i layd out up there so i wont discuss this further :messenger_astonished:

I actually waited for some first patches - now i had the urge to squeeze this Thread out. Iam happy to come back to this Discussion later if there is a major improvement happening.
 
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ACESHIGH

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May 16, 2020
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ah ssems like i stay anyway to answer hahah



you think a less capable GPU should outperform a more efficient Console Hardware? Why i think GTX 750ti won most of the times i layd out up there so i wont discuss this further :messenger_astonished:

I actually waited for some first patches - now i had the urge to squeeze this Thread out. Iam happy to come back to this Discussion later if there is a major improvement happening.

It's all about the devs putting time to optimize a game and play to the platform strengths. Console optimization exists but it's WAY overrated by console fanboys. Choosing the worst optimized PC port in recent memory does little to prove your point. I could pick the PS4 version of Broforce that runs at 10 FPS when there is a lot of action on screen and conclude that a PS4 runs games worse than a PC with Intel integrated graphics.
 
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Dave_at_Home

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Jun 19, 2020
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I agree, OP. The PS4 tech is literally obliterating the AMD Duron/S3 Pro Savage/128MB RAM rig I got in 2001.

But not this bad boy!
 
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Guilty_AI

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i dont think it is that much of a shitty port , the game has bugs yeah but performacne wise - i guess not.
Nah, its a bad port, and i'd go beyond and say the code for the game itself must've been quite messy.
You can see it in the details with things like how the hair physics are tied to frame rate, certain issues with photo mode, all the crashes so many users had to deal with which obviously goes beyond merely poor performance.
There's also how Death Stranding runs perfectly well, and your argument against it has no real legs since all you said on the matter was some vague supposition that really doesn't mean anything.
 
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Jun 23, 2020
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HZD is a cheap port. If you ask me, they did it quick and nasty just to check how much they could sell on PC, like a test case scenario.
 

TheTechnician

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Dec 23, 2019
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iam aware that this is a laymans take - but if theres nothing at all to it or more than most of you think - why we cant have a definitve approach from Digital Foundry or NX gamer or others to it?

and i did not say ( or at least i did not intend) that Consoles are more efficient as every PC in general. I talk here specificly about hardware wich is comparable to certain console Hardware. And i do it because in the beginning of this Gen there was much talk how the PS4 would outperform similar PCs and there was alot of Talk how it not would do that.
We have now an entire Gen behind us and ithink the Picture i draw here stands ..
oh and btw i play on PC as well - just that you know.. :messenger_beaming:
okay - last thing from me here - if someone follows either DF or NX gamer somewhere feels free to link this there. I dont care of being ridiculed here or somewhere esle - i anyway do not take the inet seriously - but what i want is that this Point gets again some professional Attention.
 
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Guilty_AI

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iam aware that this is a laymans take - but if theres nothing at all to it or more than most of you think - why we cant have a definitve approach from Digital Foundry or NX gamer or others to it?

and i did not say ( or at least i did not intend) that Consoles are more efficient as every PC in general. I talk here specificly about hardware wich is comparable to certain console Hardware. And i do it because in the beginning of this Gen there was much talk how the PS4 would outperform similar PCs and there was alot of Talk how it not would do that.
We have now an entire Gen behind us and ithink the Picture i draw here stands ..
oh and btw i play on PC as well - just that you know.. :messenger_beaming:
okay - last thing from me here - if someone follows either DF or NX gamer somewhere feels free to link this there. I dont care of being ridiculed here or somewhere esle - i anyway do not take the inet seriously - but what i want is that this Point gets again some professional Attention.
Mate, when you imply the the likes of DF are "professionals" you're pretty much asking to be ridiculed
 

Dodkrake

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Feb 28, 2020
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How not to love that both the OP is wrong in how they defend their thesis and the ones defending the PC space are also wrong in saying it performs worse because it's a shit port.

It could have been the perfect port and it wouldn't still run as well in comparable hardware. It could get very close, but without lower level access to hardware APIs in the way Playststion provides developers with, the console would still have the edge.

It's as simple as that, the PS5 is a dedicated gaming machine, PCs are fundamentally workstations, even if you have the best gaming rig in the world.

And let's not talk about the amount of hardware combinations, device drivers, etc.
 

Zefah

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There have been a lot of bad ports over the years. Look at the original Resident Evil 4 release on PC for example.
 

psorcerer

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Okay the last two Videos do nothing in terms of proving the PS4s Edge in Hardware since the GTX 750ti is hopelessly weak in comparison to the PS4s GPU but since we now HOW OFTEN this Card especially in those DF Comparisions did well against PS4, we know how bad some of these Third Party Games must have made use of PS4s capabilitys. Remember - all components in PS4 are actually underclocked - if you use only or mainly High level API GNMX you basicly aproach PS4s GPU as a normal Desktop Card with that Clockspeeds. In such a scenario PS4 must lose...

Any multiplatform game will heavily underutilize hardware.

But it's impossible to prove to PCMR folks.
They will always say "bad port".
While also saying "PC can brute-force anything" and "console hardware is just a weak PC" both meaning: PC should perform better in all circumstances. And when you get a game that doesn't do that: it's a bad port.
It's useless. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Vawn

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Developers are usually able to get the best results when they develop for a single platform. It doesn't shock me that games originally made exclusively for PlayStation aren't as impressive when ported, even to more powerful hardware.

Death Stranding is different as that was always meant to go to PC after a set period of time.
 

junguler

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i'm sorry op but what have you done? are we supposed to read all that? why don't you respect people's time?
i wanted to read what your wrote and see if it had any merit but you have done yourself and disservice by making a wall of text like this.
 

FritzJ92

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The only way to have a fair comparison would be to see what other games run like on PS4 and what type of rig is needed to run that graphic. And any proper port will outperform whatever pixel dust Cerny put inside the PS4. The game is crap, that's why you need so much power to run it okay before it crashes. ESP at 1080P/30FPS
 

01011001

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the port of Horizon being trash =/= Console Hardware is better

consoles always have a small advantage due to optimisation but that advantage is not big.

a well optimised PC game runs at very similar specs to console at basically the same quality

I'm giving you an example,
the "impossible Switch port" Doom
crazy that it runs on such a low power console right? has to be console optimisation! NOPE...

I played it on my cheap ass laptop, 1.7ghz i3 3rd gen, 4GB DDR3 ram, Geforce 820m (that's a 260gflop gpu, less raw fp32 performance than the Switch)

it ran basically like the Switch version but with a more stable framerate.
in conclusion, worse raw GPU performance than the Switch, yet it ran slightly better than the Switch version
 
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captainraincoat

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PC gamers have had SSDs for a number of years and i dont think there have ever been any games that have taken advantage of faster SSD speeds or io improvements
as it all still comes down to the GPU/CPU as thats the one thing they can target consistently as there are so many different hardware makeups

You could then argue that consoles will change that but console gaming is also going to suffer the same fate as the small storage space of the base ps5 is going to mean people will have to rely on external storage which does not exist yet to the same spec of the ps5 internal drive
people are reading too much into the marketing drivel thats been spewed up by fanboys and console warriors



 

MaulerX

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Two cases:

1: you're arguing that PS4 runs the game better than a PC with a similar hardware configuration as the console, in which case it's a no-brainer and you didn't need to write a wall of text for it. PCs are less specialized machines and a PC with a similar hardware configuration as a PS4 would be considered a piece of junk nowadays for gaming.

2: you're arguing that consoles have an edge over PC in general, in which case this is a terrible take. This is simply a very badly optimized port and Death Stranding, running on the same engine, proves you wrong.




This right here is all that needed to be said on this matter.
 
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