• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Houston Astros Say They're "Very Sorry" For Cheating to Win a World Series Title

ManaByte

Gold Member
Jun 10, 2004
23,016
6,873
2,235
42
Southern California
mcucosmic.com

"The whole Astros organization and the team feels bad about what happened in 2017," Altuve said. "We especially feel remorse for the impact on our fans and the game of baseball. Our team is determined to move forward to play with intensity and to bring back a championship to Houston in 2020."

In the clubhouse, Altuve was asked if the team knew what it was doing was wrong.

"Yeah, kind of. That's why we feel bad. I'm not gonna say to you it was good," Altuve said about their actions. "It was wrong. We feel bad. We feel remorse. Like I said -- the impact on the fans, the impact on the game. We feel bad."
"The guys have said they're sorry for this, and hopefully people will forgive us," Baker said.
"The meeting went about an hour. I think everybody feels better about it. We want to get this behind us. Again, we're apologizing to everyone. We're very remorseful, very sorry."
 

diffusionx

Member
Feb 25, 2006
8,655
798
1,460
I get why Manfred gave the players immunity but I wonder if he is regretting it now. The idea that these guys will be playing next year like nothing happened really rubs me the wrong way.

The buzzer thing is also NOT going away.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rock And Roll

Lionel Richie

Member
Jun 22, 2014
9,456
4,395
720
Manfred and the Astros just tag teaming to destroy an entire sport, this is some comic book stuff. I miss the steroids days.
 

cr0w

Old Member
Aug 31, 2015
3,164
1,277
715
They'll win 98-105 games this year and people are going to be all like, "WTF guys I thought they couldn't hit without cheating?"

Meanwhile, Red Sox and Yankees (especially the Yankees) will see little to no repercussions from baseball for doing the same damn shit because of who they are. Beltran brought the system over from the Yanks, he and Cora perfected it, and it was taken with them when they left the Astros which led to a WS title for Boston and nothing for the Yanks because they're trash regardless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Texas Pride

Cult of FartNoise

Gold Member
Nov 5, 2016
14,680
20,125
1,010
One Big Room, Full Of Bad Bitches
I was curious to see what their plan was gonna be for the conference today

Blame it all on Hinch, I get it. Deflect all blame away from the players, I get it. Don’t get too specific, I get it, just apologize for “what happened.”

hard for me not to include the players in my disdain for this scandal though, maybe that’s just me

Whole thing is just ugly and terrible. I think they got off light

I know Mana and Musky won’t give me any reactions no matter what but whatever,
I’m a sports fan and this is how I feel
 
Last edited:

TDiddyLive

Neo Member
Feb 22, 2018
28
40
155
They should have vacated the championship like college football did during the USC Reggie Bush scandal.
 

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
7,658
14,669
1,050
I get why Manfred gave the players immunity but I wonder if he is regretting it now. The idea that these guys will be playing next year like nothing happened really rubs me the wrong way.

The buzzer thing is also NOT going away.
The Manfred report was bullshit. I thought that as I was reading it. It was a coverup sort of. As in they admitted to what everyone already discovered, didn’t admit anything that wasn’t already proven at the time, and blamed it on people that wasn’t players.

We were led to believe Cora was the mastermind, only to find out later he wasn’t.

MLB could have avoided all this by just revealing everything at once. And the Astros volunteering to remove their 2017 Championship banners.

Too late now

 
Last edited:

diffusionx

Member
Feb 25, 2006
8,655
798
1,460
The Manfred report was bullshit. I thought that as I was reading it. It was a coverup sort of. As in they admitted to what everyone already discovered, didn’t admit anything that wasn’t already proven at the time, and blamed it on people that wasn’t players.

We were led to believe Cora was the mastermind, only to find out later he wasn’t.

MLB could have avoided all this by just revealing everything at once. And the Astros volunteering to remove their 2017 Championship banners.

Too late now
I thought it was BS too, especially the whole "nothing happened in 2019".

There was no reason for the Astros NOT to cheat in 2019, the same people in charge, tons of success, etc. It defies credibility. It is far more likely they found even better ways to cheat - for example, buzzers.
 
Last edited:

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
7,658
14,669
1,050
I thought it was BS too, especially the whole "nothing happened in 2019".

There was no reason for the Astros NOT to cheat in 2019, the same people in charge, tons of success, etc. It defies credibility. It is far more likely they found even better ways to cheat - for example, buzzers.
Tony Sipp told Max before the World Series that the Nationals needed to worry about the Astros stealing signs even with no one on base.

Sipp played with Houston thru the 2018 season. Sipp knew the cheating didn’t end in 2017
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rock And Roll

cr0w

Old Member
Aug 31, 2015
3,164
1,277
715
Tony Sipp told Max before the World Series that the Nationals needed to worry about the Astros stealing signs even with no one on base.

Sipp played with Houston thru the 2018 season. Sipp knew the cheating didn’t end in 2017
This would hold a lot more water if they had managed to actually win a home game.
 

diffusionx

Member
Feb 25, 2006
8,655
798
1,460
This would hold a lot more water if they had managed to actually win a home game.
The fact that a team knew they were cheating, made moves to counter it, then won actually holds a lot of water.
 
Last edited:

AlteredForms

Member
Oct 22, 2013
2,453
673
590
Didn't they lose the championship to another team lol? Imagine attempting to cheat only to be beaten by those who did it right.
 

cr0w

Old Member
Aug 31, 2015
3,164
1,277
715
The fact that a team knew they were cheating, made moves to counter it, then won actually holds a lot of water.
Wouldn't those moves have also benefited the Nationals at home where, if you remember, they also lost every single game? Unless the "cheating" and "countermeasures" were completely ineffective when both teams had to just go out and play fuckin' baseball assuming there were no cheating measures done on the road.
 

cr0w

Old Member
Aug 31, 2015
3,164
1,277
715
Because that other team knew they were cheating and countered it.
....and then went on to lose every game at home, where you'd think they would have had a bigger advantage. The 2019 series was fucking weird in the first place, but the home/road split is the weirdest part. You'd think, if the Nats had any sort of advantage due to knowing the Astros' methods, they would have steamrolled them in 4.
 

cr0w

Old Member
Aug 31, 2015
3,164
1,277
715
This talk about the 2019 series is gonna keep bothering me, because if you look at the box scores it's fucking ridiculous.

Game 1-2 in Houston, where the Astros cheated during 2017 but no evidence says they did during 2019, the Nats jumped on the Astros 5-4 in game one and 12-3 in game 2. In games 3, 4 and 5 in Washington, where the Astros had no discernible advantage considering their cheating was supposedly limited to Minute Maid Park, the Nats scored 3 runs total over the 3 games while the Astros scored 19. In games 6 and 7, the Astros scored 4 runs to the Nats' 13, 4 of which in game 7 occurred after a bullpen implosion from Will fuckin' Harris (who is a piece of shit and never should have been put out there) on a good pitch that had not been hit for a home run during the entire season after A.J. Hinch (who should have been fired for this call) pulled Greinke, who was fucking cruising, for the aforementioned piece of shit instead of Gerrit Cole. After Harris was knocked out, the Nats piled on Pressly and Osuna for 2 more.

What a fucking weird 7 games that was. If anything, that's karma.

Also fuck Will Harris, you suck bro and I've been saying it for half a decade. You look like a 45-year-old lesbian and pitch even worse.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Texas Pride

Rock And Roll

Member
Sep 28, 2014
2,839
1,131
625
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm using my MLB.TV subscription to watch a lot of Astros Road games this year. Should be entertaining stuff.

Jim Crane is a huge piece of shit too.
 

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
7,658
14,669
1,050
....and then went on to lose every game at home, where you'd think they would have had a bigger advantage. The 2019 series was fucking weird in the first place, but the home/road split is the weirdest part. You'd think, if the Nats had any sort of advantage due to knowing the Astros' methods, they would have steamrolled them in 4.
The information that has come out in the last few weeks says they were able to use the cheating method on the road too.

Here is something to think about.

Max and Stras pitched all 4 Houston games in the World Series. Corbin, Ani, and Ross pitched all 3 in Washington. Max and Stras are a way higher level than the other 3.

The cheating doesn't tell you the location of the pitch. But rather the type of pitch. So a Change Up that will dive down is incredibly easy to lay off if it starts at the bottom of the zone. But a Change up that starts higher...



Same pitch (with incredible run) and the hitter cant assume it is a ball. Here is one that he didn't get the spin he wanted (same situation same pitch)


What the Nationals figured out is
A) Throw high fastballs (The high fastball can look like a strike but because of the spin will land above the zone. Known sometimes as a Rising Fastball, but its not. It is the height of the mound with a ball that doesn't dip if you have high backspin.
B) Off Speed and movement pitches (think Curveball) need to start higher. The hitter can't spit on it
C) You have to execute those pitches nearly perfect for 27 outs



 

cr0w

Old Member
Aug 31, 2015
3,164
1,277
715
The information that has come out in the last few weeks says they were able to use the cheating method on the road too.

Here is something to think about.

Max and Stras pitched all 4 Houston games in the World Series. Corbin, Ani, and Ross pitched all 3 in Washington. Max and Stras are a way higher level than the other 3.

The cheating doesn't tell you the location of the pitch. But rather the type of pitch. So a Change Up that will dive down is incredibly easy to lay off if it starts at the bottom of the zone. But a Change up that starts higher...



Same pitch (with incredible run) and the hitter cant assume it is a ball. Here is one that he didn't get the spin he wanted (same situation same pitch)


What the Nationals figured out is
A) Throw high fastballs (The high fastball can look like a strike but because of the spin will land above the zone. Known sometimes as a Rising Fastball, but its not. It is the height of the mound with a ball that doesn't dip if you have high backspin.
B) Off Speed and movement pitches (think Curveball) need to start higher. The hitter can't spit on it
C) You have to execute those pitches nearly perfect for 27 outs



Yeah, I started to think about how Stras and Scherzer were basically a perfect counter to anything the Astros would be doing because of how fucking good they are, but I got too involved in pulling the scores and then my blood pressure went up when I started talking about Will Harris and kind of lost all train of thought after that. The Nats were perfectly set up with those two ready to go in Houston, maybe the only team that could say that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Musky_Cheese

diffusionx

Member
Feb 25, 2006
8,655
798
1,460
Wouldn't those moves have also benefited the Nationals at home where, if you remember, they also lost every single game? Unless the "cheating" and "countermeasures" were completely ineffective when both teams had to just go out and play fuckin' baseball assuming there were no cheating measures done on the road.
I think it's a mistake to just focus on the World Series - the Astros won a lot of games in 2019, 60 home games during the regular season and 5 in the playoffs. Maybe the Rays also have a legitimate gripe seeing as they lost that series 3-2, with all losses/Astros wins coming in Houston.

If the Astros were cheating in 2019, which I think they were, and if the Nats employed some measures that took the cheating away, then it stands to reason the end result might be a really weird series, which we got. But again, the season is a lot more than just the World Series.
 
Last edited:

cr0w

Old Member
Aug 31, 2015
3,164
1,277
715
I think it's a mistake to just focus on the World Series - the Astros won a lot of games in 2019, 60 home games during the regular season and 5 in the playoffs. Maybe the Rays also have a legitimate gripe seeing as they lost that series 3-2, with all losses/Astros wins coming in Houston.

If the Astros were cheating in 2019, which I think they were, and if the Nats employed some measures that took the cheating away, then it stands to reason the end result might be a really weird series, which we got. But again, the season is a lot more than just the World Series.
It is, yes. I guess I'm just a little sour that Manfred/MLB isn't going beyond the Astros to punish people when, since the league began replay review, every single team has had access to real-time feeds in their clubhouses and we know that other teams have been doing the same shit. Granted, probably not to the extent that the Astros did and that justifies the more severe punishment, but it just feels like it's going to start and stop with the Astros, when that same year you had the Red Sox and the Apple Watch shit, etc. It just feels like there's a singular target here, and MLB is sweeping the rest of it under the rug.

I'm legitimately curious to see what happens if the Astros go out this year and win a shitload more games.
 
Last edited:

DragoonKain

Member
Nov 13, 2013
2,863
3,125
885
Frankly, I think over-apologizing is a waste of time. They already disgraced themselves, and it's clear no apology is going to be good enough. The deed is done, it is what it is, they are going to be booed and hated for the foreseeable future, nothing they can do or say will change that. Just say we fucked up, and move on. You're not going to placate those who now hate you so why even bother at this point. They didn't rush the stands and beat a bunch of innocent fans with baseball bats. They cheated. Seeing people outraged over their apologies not being sincere enough need to get over it. What do you want them to do, start sobbing? What's done is done. They're now disgraced cheaters and that's kind of it.
 
  • Fire
Reactions: cr0w

Texas Pride

Member
Feb 27, 2018
1,600
2,330
580
Texas
They did it they got caught let it go. That's where I'm at. Anyone that truly believes this was limited to just Houston is in denial or a liar. And as analytics advance they won't be the last either. I believe Beltran came up with the scheme in NY and it progressed from there so NY fans throwing shade at Houston is easy when you get out of this with no blowback simply because you're the Yankees.
 
Last edited:

Fox Mulder

Member
Jul 1, 2009
17,915
1,315
970
Greensboro, NC
I think they should have got a harsher penalty, but whatever. It’s over now and they’ll be tainted with this shit and hated the rest of their careers.
 

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
7,658
14,669
1,050
The Astros cheating doesn't = the Konami Code tho. People need to keep that in mind.

There are a number of Pitchers even today that only throw 1 pitch a vast majority of the time. Mariano Rivera is a Hall Of Famer and was notorious for only throwing a Cutter. In reality he did throw more than that. Google says 86% of all his lifetime pitches were cutters. No one was looking for anything else, knew what was coming... still couldn't hit it.

Sean Doolittle throws his fastball 89% of the time. Still an effective closer

Kenley Jansen threw his cutter many years ago 90% of the time
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: cr0w and Tesseract

diffusionx

Member
Feb 25, 2006
8,655
798
1,460
The Astros cheating doesn't = the Konami Code tho. People need to keep that in mind.

There are a number of Pitchers even today that only throw 1 pitch a vast majority of the time. Mariano Rivera is a Hall Of Famer and was notorious for only throwing a Cutter. In reality he did throw more than that. Google says 86% of all his lifetime pitches were cutters. No one was looking for anything else, knew what was coming... still couldn't hit it.

Sean Doolittle throws his fastball 89% of the time. Still an effective closer

Kenley Jansen threw his cutter many years ago 90% of the time
Needless to say most pitchers aren't Mariano Rivera and need a variety of pitches and locations to be effective. Also closers only face these guys once or not at all. Their limited number of pitches matters less. The point about stealing signs is that you gather the data early and use it next time up.

Everyone knows the Astros are a talented team and would be in the running for a championship without this. You’re not going to turn the 1962 Mets into champions with this. The whole point of cheating like this is to gain a small edge.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
7,658
14,669
1,050
Needless to say most pitchers aren't Mariano Rivera and need a variety of pitches and locations to be effective.

Everyone knows the Astros are a talented team and would be in the running for a championship without this. You’re not going to turn the 1962 Mets into champions with this. The whole point of cheating like this is to gain a small edge.
Yes I know. I am bringing this up for people who want to point to Home/Road splits and say why didn’t it work.

Knowing what pitch doesn’t = knowing location and a number of other factors that go into hitting at the highest level
 

DESTROYA

Member
Jan 1, 2011
4,111
3,664
965
USA
Baseball is just about dead.
Its just not the cheating scandal it’s the whole game, games last far to long and boring as hell.
Baseball is still living in the past and needs to grab the attention of today’s market and I’m just not sure how that’s done without really overhauling the game.
 

diffusionx

Member
Feb 25, 2006
8,655
798
1,460
Baseball is just about dead.
Its just not the cheating scandal it’s the whole game, games last far to long and boring as hell.
Baseball is still living in the past and needs to grab the attention of today’s market and I’m just not sure how that’s done without really overhauling the game.
baseball is actually more successful now than it ever has been. It's just a regional thing. There aren't armies of bugmen posting reactions on twitter like NBA and NFL, but people watch their teams and go to the games in droves.

I agree the games need to be sped up, but it's interesting to note that the games in the 60s and 70s were like 2-2.5 hours. So if anything they should be looking the past more.
 
Last edited:

DESTROYA

Member
Jan 1, 2011
4,111
3,664
965
USA
baseball is actually more successful now than it ever has been. It's just a regional thing. There aren't armies of bugmen posting reactions on twitter like NBA and NFL, but people watch their teams and go to the games in droves.

I agree the games need to be sped up, but it's interesting to note that the games in the 60s and 70s were like 2-2.5 hours. So if anything they should be looking the past more.
I live in MA and RedSox fan so it’s on life support...lol
Maybe giving the pitchers a time limit between pitches or replacing the umps with electronic ball or strike calls would help speed things up.
 

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
7,658
14,669
1,050
I live in MA and RedSox fan so it’s on life support...lol
Maybe giving the pitchers a time limit between pitches or replacing the umps with electronic ball or strike calls would help speed things up.
Average NFL game is 3 hours 12 minutes

Average MLB game is 3 hours 5 minutes

No the game is not dying. And catering to the Mountain Dew crowd will decrease viewer ship.

MLB generates 10 billion in revenue in 2018 iirc.

They can do more with black outs and overall restriction of content.

But understand that it being boring to you, and needing the game to be shorter is a contradiction. More offense leads to longer games.
 

DESTROYA

Member
Jan 1, 2011
4,111
3,664
965
USA
Average NFL game is 3 hours 12 minutes

Average MLB game is 3 hours 5 minutes

No the game is not dying. And catering to the Mountain Dew crowd will decrease viewer ship.

MLB generates 10 billion in revenue in 2018 iirc.

They can do more with black outs and overall restriction of content.

But understand that it being boring to you, and needing the game to be shorter is a contradiction. More offense leads to longer games.
The thing is there is more action in one typical NFL play then there is on entire inning of baseball, and I meant more the time pitchers are given between pitches , cmon man I don’t need some guy wiping his brow, adjust his hat, spit,step off the rubber scratch his balls, readjust his hat,spit again, grab the Rosen bag, stare at his catcher and then throw a dirt ball.
 

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
7,658
14,669
1,050
The thing is there is more action in one typical NFL play then there is on entire inning of baseball, and I meant more the time pitchers are given between pitches , cmon man I don’t need some guy wiping his brow, adjust his hat, spit,step off the rubber scratch his balls, readjust his hat,spit again, grab the Rosen bag, stare at his catcher and then throw a dirt ball.
There is an average of 23 seconds between pitches.

NFL runs a play every 40 seconds with even the best team averaging less than 7 yards a play (and that was the best team in 2019, some teams averaging less than 5).

And the NFL and nba are both leagues with rules to heavily favor the offense. Other than the MLB playing tee ball, I’m not sure what you can do to create more offense. And that would increase game times.

Market your stars, less restrictions on content (tv and social media)
 

Rock And Roll

Member
Sep 28, 2014
2,839
1,131
625
baseball is actually more successful now than it ever has been. It's just a regional thing. There aren't armies of bugmen posting reactions on twitter like NBA and NFL, but people watch their teams and go to the games in droves.

I agree the games need to be sped up, but it's interesting to note that the games in the 60s and 70s were like 2-2.5 hours. So if anything they should be looking the past more.
I watch a lot of old LCS's and WS in the offseason because I'm a junkie. Anyway you watch games in the 60s and 70s the pitchers just throw the ball, they don't take their sweet time. Also guys swing more and put the ball in play a whole lot more. Everything about the game seems to be faster and on edge back then. The game now seems way more cautious which I'm not sure is a good thing.
 
Last edited: