How China Turned a City Into a Prison

hariseldon

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Aug 22, 2018
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There really aren't any words to express how awful that is. One has to wonder how something so inhuman can come to exist, the capacity of human beings for evil never ceases to astonish.
 

Breakage

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Mar 3, 2014
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Nothing surprises me about China. I mean it's a country where a section of the population skin and boil cats and dogs alive because they believe it improves the flavour of the meat.
 

Durask

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To all those wokest motherfuckers in the world who ceaselessly bitch and moan about the evils of the western world, this is the future you're working towards.
I'm sure a large proportion of them would absolutely love this.
 

triplestation

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Damn China is like the Russia of North Korea and North Korea is like the China of Russia and Russia is like the China of North Korea and China is like the North Korea of Russia
 
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MrTickles

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This is good. I support China's achievement. They're using all peaceful tools at their disposal to ensure the moderation of extremist elements. This is how the Russians defanged the Tartars, which comprise over 20 million muslims in Russia. They are 100% moderates. Dissident minority populations hostile to the prevailing culture have always either displaced the prevailing culture, been crushed out of existence or been crushed into conformity, from the Americas to Central Europe and beyond. It's how cultures and civilization prevail over others. Those unwilling to put in the effort are removed from the map.
 
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Hypnotoad

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This is good. I support China's achievement. They're using all peaceful tools at their disposal to ensure the moderation of extremist elements. This is how the Russians defanged the Tartars, which comprise over 20 million muslims in Russia. They are 100% moderates. Dissident minority populations hostile to the prevailing culture have always either displaced the prevailing culture, been crushed out of existence or been crushed into conformity, from the Americas to Central Europe and beyond. It's how cultures and civilization prevail over others. Those unwilling to put in the effort are removed from the map.
What a despicable viewpoint you have, though nothing surprises me in your CPC dicksucking. I have university-educated Uyghur friends who are afraid of moving back to Xinjiang because they could be thrown into re-education camps for belonging to the wrong ethnicity. At any point they could be shipped back there regardless. But sure, removing cultures and people from the map is A-oK.
 

Cybrwzrd

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Mind you I’ve only known one Uighur family in my lifetime; he was an immigrant who fled China, highly educated and he isn’t a religious man. He loves his vodka.

But he is one of my favorite people I have ever met. He was my boss for about 5 years. The stuff he’d show me about what is actually going on there makes me sick.

We have protests here over exceedingly rare instances of police brutality. It was actually the daily struggle in Xinjiang. American minorities don’t know what oppression is. And China is very good at making instances of dead Uighurs disappear.

https://medium.com/@shawnwzhang/list-of-re-education-camps-in-xinjiang-新疆再教育集中营列表-99720372419c
 
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This is good. I support China's achievement. They're using all peaceful tools at their disposal to ensure the moderation of extremist elements. This is how the Russians defanged the Tartars, which comprise over 20 million muslims in Russia. They are 100% moderates. Dissident minority populations hostile to the prevailing culture have always either displaced the prevailing culture, been crushed out of existence or been crushed into conformity, from the Americas to Central Europe and beyond. It's how cultures and civilization prevail over others. Those unwilling to put in the effort are removed from the map.
I cannot condone the sentiment, but I understand the truth in the shadow of human history. This is probably the gentlest genocide humanity has ever seen.
 

triplestation

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This is good. I support China's achievement. They're using all peaceful tools at their disposal to ensure the moderation of extremist elements. This is how the Russians defanged the Tartars, which comprise over 20 million muslims in Russia. They are 100% moderates. Dissident minority populations hostile to the prevailing culture have always either displaced the prevailing culture, been crushed out of existence or been crushed into conformity, from the Americas to Central Europe and beyond. It's how cultures and civilization prevail over others. Those unwilling to put in the effort are removed from the map.
Jesus Christ. lol
 
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Gosh I hate the Chinese government. Such a beautiful country and people with such an amazing history, which is currently being weighed down by oligarchs with no real interest in the needs of her own people. Also, what I love about this is the fact that no country seems to hold them accountable due to their economic power in the world (which abuses its work force in its manufacturing goods with incredibly cheap labor, it is almost slavery. If I recall correctly, some companies have installed nets on the sides of their buildings due to the sheer number of workplace suicides. Work hours go far beyond the typical 8-9 hour day and sometimes employees work ALL day. Wages are also pretty bad in general). Absolutely atrocious that barely anyone seems to call out their evils. I particularly have issue with the internment of muslims and the razing of churches, not to mention what happens to political dissenters and the sheer amount of censorship of "problematic material". Saying anything negative about the government or Xi could get you on a list and get you in some real physical danger.

China needs help and she will never get it.
 

MrTickles

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What a despicable viewpoint you have, though nothing surprises me in your CPC dicksucking. I have university-educated Uyghur friends who are afraid of moving back to Xinjiang because they could be thrown into re-education camps for belonging to the wrong ethnicity. At any point they could be shipped back there regardless. But sure, removing cultures and people from the map is A-oK.
Neither the native culture nor the people are being removed from Xinjiang. You have anecdotes and imaginary genocides, what else do you have?

This is probably the gentlest genocide humanity has ever seen.
i.e not one.

Strange genocide, where the native population is actually increasing in relative terms, and enjoys preferential educational placements, fastest rural wage growths in the country, as do all non-han minorities in the PRC. Birth rates for China's minorities are typically much higher as they are incentivized by welfare perks, relatively greater upsurge in economic standing due to an emphasis on western (China) hinterland development programs, and no restrictions on number of kids. The one child policy only recently got dropped from the Han (urban) population.

As is happening in Tibet except there the situation is more peaceful, as there is no running Islamist insurgency, fed by black market trade and flow of goods and people from the clusterfucks that are Pakistan and Afghanistan - up to 10,000 uighurs made their way to Idlib province in Syria to fight for Al Qaeda and other groups since 2014. And yes many have and will come back, well versed in the art of the traditional beheading.

Tibet like Xinjiang is receiving disproportionate investment from Beijing and is one of the fastest growing economies in Asia as a result, alongside Xinjiang.

What are Uyghurs actually losing? A militant, partial segment is losing their Jihadist heritage? Their religious extremism? Once again, strange 'genocide'. The Beauty of 7th century Islamism is being erased from an area of the world it actually invaded through war. Surely the world will never recover?

The irony is that the typical Majority rural Han Chinese have it worse socioeconomically in China; worse than Tibetans, Uyghurs, Hui ( also muslims, but moderates hence you don't hear about them), Miao, Mongolians, etc simply because there are so many of them that the trinket welfare system cannot reach to an adequate degree. They congregate like rats in their 100+ millions in seasonal underground urban housing, that often connects to the sewer systems, acting as slave labor for the construction sector. They're largely on their own when it comes to education and unemployment support.

but, muh imaginary genocide. waaaa

Jesus Christ. lol
ok

I have greatly personal experience with Muslims of the moderate persuasion as I was born and grew up alongside them in former Yugoslavia. They would agree with this program to stamp down on radicals. That's exactly what the current government of Bosnia Herzegovina is doing, after large arrivals of Saudis into the country. I know that's what China is trying to promote and that's why I'm a fan. If they keep it Gandhi esque and passively peaceful it's fine. One of the few things Socialist regimes ever got right is - moderating Abrahamic zealots through social reform. This moderation occured in Southern Europe, Russia, Kazakhstan and much of central asia and is now happening in China. It didn't happen magically. It takes actual policy and implementation of said policy to modernize Sunni dominated societies. They don't modernize themselves, the raw ideology is inately regressive. It's first victims are always moderates and progressives.

The level of ignorance concerning this matter, and the amount of sympathy regarded toward an ideology that seeks to reverse or arrest all forms of progressive action on the globe is THE premier threat for society in the 21st century. That ideology is what you're crying for in Western China. You're not crying for Uighurs. They are going nowhere.
 
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Hypnotoad

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Mr Tickles, I know you are unredeemable, but China is not just putting a few Jihadis into internment camps, but a large swath of the Uyghur population, inclung the state-aligned intelligentsia and secular artists. All the while demolishing Uyghur cities and heritage all over the province.
 

sahlberg

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Gosh I hate the Chinese government. Such a beautiful country and people with such an amazing history, which is currently being weighed down by oligarchs with no real interest in the needs of her own people.
Don't be ignorant. This has nothing to do with oligarchs or greedy rich people. This is normal chineese policy for preventing social unrest since their revolution.

Organ harvesting vans running around and collecting, well, organs from FalunGong and other dissenters existed long long long before China became an economic superpower.
I don't recall anyone in the west complaining when they were doing public executions at football stadiums, so everyone got to watch, and then charged the family of the perp the cost of the bullet during the 70/80/90s
Just now people realize that the chineese are not the dream society. Jeez.

When the alt-left finishes destroying western civilization. This is what will replace it.
 

hariseldon

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This is good. I support China's achievement. They're using all peaceful tools at their disposal to ensure the moderation of extremist elements. This is how the Russians defanged the Tartars, which comprise over 20 million muslims in Russia. They are 100% moderates. Dissident minority populations hostile to the prevailing culture have always either displaced the prevailing culture, been crushed out of existence or been crushed into conformity, from the Americas to Central Europe and beyond. It's how cultures and civilization prevail over others. Those unwilling to put in the effort are removed from the map.
That's quite a statement. I presume you'd be happy to be on the receiving end?
 

MrTickles

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That's quite a statement. I presume you'd be happy to be on the receiving end?
If I was somebody that thought women should be treated like cattle, gays thrown off roofs and unmarried dating couples punished with lashes or worse, sure, I'd expect to be re-educated.

Mr Tickles, I know you are unredeemable, but China is not just putting a few Jihadis into internment camps, but a large swath of the Uyghur population, inclung the state-aligned intelligentsia and secular artists. All the while demolishing Uyghur cities and heritage all over the province.
This is all largely happening in your head, as directed by fake news media. The part in bold happens in Beijing itself, it has nothing to do with oppression. The fact is the old infrastructure is crap and unfit for 21st century living. Large swathes of most Chinese cities have had to be destroyed and rebuilt. There are only a handful of Hutongs left for example, and they still stink of piss and shit despite heavy maintenance for tourism purposes. The remaining shanty towns of Guangzhou are some of the most criminally dangerous and lawless parts of China. China actually invests enormous money into its population, and per capita, far more on its minorities.

Finally, calling me unredeemable? Who are you, Hillary Clinton? That's not how to win a debate, that's a proven losing strategy.

I don't even like the Chinese state, it's a quasi-fascist corporation. All that historic lifting of poverty and rapid development comes at a cost to social freedoms. But it's not the boogeyman fantasy you make it out to be. I like ignorance even less.
 
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Hypnotoad

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This is all largely happening in your head, as directed by fake news media.
I live in China, and I know enough residents of Xinjiang, both Uyghur and Han, who I trust not to be part of some fake news media hoax, confirming that horrible things are happening in Xinjiang, including friends and colleagues dissapearing. I will also later this year try to visit Kashgar and other cities in the region. But sure, I am just an uniformed, gullible fool falling for anti-Chinese propaganga.

The part in bold happens in Beijing itself, it has nothing to do with oppression. The fact is the old infrastructure is crap and unfit for 21st century living. Large swathes of most Chinese cities have had to be destroyed and rebuilt. There are only a handful of Hutongs left for example, and they still stink of piss and shit despite heavy maintenance for tourism purposes. The remaining shanty towns of Guangzhou are some of the most criminally dangerous and lawless parts of China. China actually invests enormous money into its population, and per capita, far more on its minorities.
The CPC has already eradicated most of what used to constitute Chinese culture, including its architectural heritage. In the suburb of Shanghai where I live (over half a million inhabitants), no single place of worship exists, or any old building for that matter. Cultural facilities? Not many. Everyone congregates in the malls, which are plentiful in number. The fact that everything was build this millenium doesn't make it any better, though - I recently moved out of the apartment I rented, which is just 7 years old, because the building was already decrepit. The constant rebuilding and reshaping of society has made this country into a civilizational void - a (Shanghainese) friend of mine who articulated it accurately: outside of the food, nothing here is Chinese anymore.

The purpose of all this is multifaceted, including providing better living standard. But population control, destruction of communities and erasing cultural differences have always played a large part in it and continue to do so - now applied in Xinjiang, which is all the worse, because now that Chinese culture has been left an empty shell filled by a "Socialism with Chinese characteristic" in all its unappealing practice, the same will happen to Uyghur culture, at least within the boarders of the PRC.

Other countries with Chinese heritage, like Taiwan and Malaysia, managed to modernize without tearing everything apart and rebuilding every 20 years - or all the other tragedies that came after revolution. What China is doing is the antithesis to smart investment (like carefully maintaining its heritage, which never comes cheap). Rather, it is building fast, big and cheap. Sustainability? Not the strong suit of this regime.


Finally, calling me unredeemable? Who are you, Hillary Clinton? That's not how to win a debate, that's a proven losing strategy.
Thinking back to our previous discussions on China, where at some point you always bailed out of the debate (and doing this again right now with simply calling the internment of non-radical Uyghurs fake news), I see that label as justified.

I don't even like the Chinese state, it's a quasi-fascist corporation. All that historic lifting of poverty and rapid development comes at a cost to social freedoms. But it's not the boogeyman fantasy you make it out to be. I like ignorance even less.
Other countries managed to lift their populations out of poverty just fine, without needing to resort to even a fraction of the dystopian measures China has applied since 1949 - which caused much of the devastation in the first place. In fact, state planning is a pretty bad tool for that, and a number of prominent scholars (like Dikötter) have argued - and I would say rightfully so - that most of the progress that China has achieved can be attributed to the state and the party releasing their iron grip on society. Which is why the current path of China - ever-tightening control and censorship, favoritism towards state enterprises, purging of intra-party factions, hypernationalism and so on is likely to backfire. I am not worried about China taking over the world. It's the fallout in the country itself (and its neighbors) one should be worried about.
 
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MrRogers

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The thing about china that scares me the most, is not only their rise as a superpower, but western leftists using them as playbook of whats to come back home. It will be a different sort of "utopia" stateside, but our social engineers will use the mass surveillance/censorship/social credit angles to shape society.

I can imagine a world with 3-4 massive separate yet linked totalitarian superstates, constantly at odds with each other, to keep their populations from thinking too much, but great buddies behind the curtain... basically orwells vision. I think tho that the west will be more of the soft totalitarian touch of huxleys vision, with lots of hedonism, vanity, materialism and vapid entertainment, while other superstates like "eastasia" will be the boot on the face forever types, to control their respective populations.

The Chinese are using this against muslims for now, but if they succeed in eliminating a peoples, a religion and a culture from xinjiang. They most certainly will use it again on other peoples, cultures and religions, whether that be in 5, 10 or 50 years from now.

They have to be called on it now, or the precedent is set.
 

Miku Miku

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There really aren't any words to express how awful that is. One has to wonder how something so inhuman can come to exist, the capacity of human beings for evil never ceases to astonish.
China's history for the last 100 years has been about as dark as it gets. If you want to know how this sort of mentality is born, learn about Chinese history.
 

Grinchy

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In a cave outside of Whooville.
It kinda reminds me of the movie Minority Report. The cameras that are constantly checking face structure are like the ones from the movie that can scan eyeballs for identification, tracking every person at all times.
 

autoduelist

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Aug 30, 2014
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The thing about china that scares me the most, is not only their rise as a superpower, but western leftists using them as playbook of whats to come back home. It will be a different sort of "utopia" stateside, but our social engineers will use the mass surveillance/censorship/social credit angles to shape society.

I can imagine a world with 3-4 massive separate yet linked totalitarian superstates, constantly at odds with each other, to keep their populations from thinking too much, but great buddies behind the curtain... basically orwells vision. I think tho that the west will be more of the soft totalitarian touch of huxleys vision, with lots of hedonism, vanity, materialism and vapid entertainment, while other superstates like "eastasia" will be the boot on the face forever types, to control their respective populations.

The Chinese are using this against muslims for now, but if they succeed in eliminating a peoples, a religion and a culture from xinjiang. They most certainly will use it again on other peoples, cultures and religions, whether that be in 5, 10 or 50 years from now.

They have to be called on it now, or the precedent is set.
This is why liberty must always be preserved. The 1st and 2nd are the greatest bulwarks against totalitarianism in human history, but already we see constant erosion from well meaning folk. That pressure towards government control is neverending, because there are always power hungry that want more, always those that want the government to protect/save/provide for them, always those that see the best in others, not the worst. Individual liberty is the answer.

And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.

-Thomas Jefferson
How long before quoting Jefferson on this is deemed hate speech?
 
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EviLore

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How long before quoting Jefferson on this is deemed hate speech?
You mean the racist sexist homophobe islamophobe slave owner champion of the Patriarchy? It already very much is in some circles. For a brief while during the dark ages it was an unofficially mandated position on GAF, even, thanks to Slayven and besada:

Thank you for admitting you admire slaveowners And think people that owned slaves are great.


"All men are created equal, except for the slave i get to keep raping"


You're asking if acknowledging that the country was founded on white supremacy is an important battle while a white supremacist is in the White House and white supremacists march on the streets?


Good ol' retroactive ideological purity tests for historical figures.
 

autoduelist

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You mean the racist sexist homophobe islamophobe slave owner champion of the Patriarchy? It already very much is in some circles. For a brief while during the dark ages it was an unofficially mandated position on GAF, even, thanks to Slayven and besada:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/a-confederate-statue-continues-to-stir-unrest-at-unc-chapel-hill.1469053/page-2#post-253628575

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/protesters-shroud-jefferson-statue-decry-uva-response-to-rallies.1432694/#post-248865212

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/protesters-shroud-jefferson-statue-decry-uva-response-to-rallies.1432694/#post-248865590

Good ol' retroactive ideological purity tests for historical figures.
When history books are written, will Neogaf be viewed as home to early skirmishes and then the first major battle of the Culture War? This assumes that assumes liberty wins, of course, else Neogaf will be deplatformed and all references removed. I suppose it also depends on when we define the start of the war, but that's for future historians to work out.

But I mean that question seriously. Were we firsthand witnesses to the opening salvos? I certainly remember the first time I saw someone called a nazi for a relatively benign post, and that was here.
 

EviLore

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When history books are written, will Neogaf be viewed as home to early skirmishes and then the first major battle of the Culture War? This assumes that assumes liberty wins, of course, else Neogaf will be deplatformed and all references removed. I suppose it also depends on when we define the start of the war, but that's for future historians to work out.

But I mean that question seriously. Were we firsthand witnesses to the opening salvos? I certainly remember the first time I saw someone called a nazi for a relatively benign post, and that was here.
NeoGAF really has had an influence on internet culture during some key turning points, and we only need to look at how it was one of the top five referrers to Hillary Clinton's campaign site during the 2016 election cycle as evidence of that, along with how it shaped discourse in the gaming community during GamerGate et al. Beyond all that drama, of course, we've been credited with lots of notable stuff, like Dean Hall told me that NeoGAF was instrumental in DayZ going viral, among many other indie hits that didn't get mainstream media coverage.

Note that NeoGAF had and still has a reach of millions of uniques per month.

I don't necessarily see it showing up in historical texts due to how impenetrable and obtuse message boards are perceived as to outsiders, and who knows what sort of slant we'd end up with depending on the agenda of the author, but it's fascinating to observe and continue to participate in over a lifetime. I'm thankful that sanity is currently prevailing here, at any rate.
 

MrTickles

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Debunking of the fake propaganda piece:

Many of the police are Uyghurs, the surveillance couldn't work without them.

Why would they employ Uyghurs, when Han Chinese are being sent to Xinjiang for 'cultural genocide' and a they deport Uyghurs to camps? Did Hitler employ a significant amount of jewish SS? Only in 2011, an Arab joined the Israeli police.


Ethnic minorities outnumber the Han Chinese here​

But wasn't every Muslim in China is in a concentration camp like Reddit told me????


Surveillance cameras are everywhere​

Several on that picture are clearly different models, used for traffic monitoring, and private cams of shops. And did you know that London has the most security cameras per capita world wide?


In nearly every shop, cameras are watching​

shows a flat screen with camera stream in the middle of the shop Is that a courtesy service by the government to install a flat screen with security cam stream for the shop owner???


next slide shows totally unrelated archive footage from a trade fair, as if only Chinese companies have face recognition cameras


shows standard personal information any bureaucratic government has about a person


the intimidation works​

Damn Chinese with their security cameras and keeping a civil registry.


Id Kah mosque is almost empty on a Friday​

The footage seems to show a morning prayer, all footage of the busy mosque years ago was during daytime. There's no way to verify if the actual footage is from a Friday, this video is from 2 years ago and it seems busier, but a lot has changed in 2 years there.


Visitors to the mosque go to a security check​

Maybe because they stabbed a guy to death in that mosque some years ago https://www.wsj.com/articles/state-appointed-muslim-leader-killed-in-china-1406798803


The rebuilding has created wider streets that are easier to monitor and patrol​

Like any other city on earth that is undergoing reconstruction?


I live in China

Other countries managed to lift their populations out of poverty just fine, without needing to resort to even a fraction of the dystopian measures China has applied since 1949
So have I. I have lived and traveled all over the country. Usually to areas most Chinese don't even go as it was following the trail of investment into the rural west.

Even the thread title is mired in propaganda, no, the city in question is not a prison.

And no, other countries have not come close to lifting so many out of poverty. Even the US during its most rapid development cycles pales in comparison.

Up to 10 million Blacks in the US are still mired in poverty as are a huge percentage of those of Mexican decent. 80% of US prison population comprises these two groups, despite the majority of the populace being White Europeans. So much for liberty.

India is a cluster fuck where the caste system is more oppressive than anything Beijing could pull. The state banned discrimination based on skin tone, yet the state, in its useless efficacy, can't even police its own laws, so it continues unrestricted. HUNDREDS of millions living in extreme poverty, under constant racial abuse and exclusion, and the number is growing. So much for scuffed democracy.

Here in Australia, all 500,000 of our natives are living in poverty, some of them in conditions akin to those in the Congo. 50 years of active programs and effort and they are still not lifted out of poverty. So much for the wonders of chicken shit neoliberal governance.

Anyway, the Chinese communists have done much damage to the Chinese culture and heritage, they committed ~30-60 million excess deaths and wiped away entire chapters of dynastic history and artifacts. Mao is right there alongside Caesar, Hitler, Genghis, and Stalin. But I'm a man of final consequence, and the last 30 years are testament to something else, their reparations. They have made up for that early carnage with the most unprecedented development and betterment of a massive population in human history. They have made their giant democratic neighbor India looks like a criminal enterprise of mismanagement. Their mandate of heaven has finally been earned, in the eyes of the majority of the Chinese population. So speaking of alternatives now is premature, and quite frankly anti-Chinese welfare. Only those who seek to arrest China's rise, and see the populace suffer, are interested in attacking its state 24/7.

Up to two decades of western media China bears bleating during a period of amazing performance and growth; the entire act has grown old and superfluous. Before this it was all about muh Tibet. 4-5 decades of that shit courtesy of loliwood. And now that Tibetans are living 100x better than they did in the 50's with the economy exploding, they've had to shift to a new meme.
 
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matt404au

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NeoGAF really has had an influence on internet culture during some key turning points, and we only need to look at how it was one of the top five referrers to Hillary Clinton's campaign site during the 2016 election cycle as evidence of that, along with how it shaped discourse in the gaming community during GamerGate et al. Beyond all that drama, of course, we've been credited with lots of notable stuff, like Dean Hall told me that NeoGAF was instrumental in DayZ going viral, among many other indie hits that didn't get mainstream media coverage.

Note that NeoGAF had and still has a reach of millions of uniques per month.

I don't necessarily see it showing up in historical texts due to how impenetrable and obtuse message boards are perceived as to outsiders, and who knows what sort of slant we'd end up with depending on the agenda of the author, but it's fascinating to observe and continue to participate in over a lifetime. I'm thankful that sanity is currently prevailing here, at any rate.
I suspect it had a good influence on the popularity of Demon's Souls too. I never heard of it until GAF started raving about the imported Japanese version, so I bought the English version when it released purely because of the hype here. I loved it and then told several of my mates about it, who went out and bought it and loved it and told their mates about it and so on. I can't recall it getting much coverage in the mainstream gaming press.
 

petran79

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Israel surpasses both China and North Korea if you dare to visit the occupied zones

Also Singapore has perhaps the most cameras in the world. There is not even a need for policing
 
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Hypnotoad

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So have I. I have lived and traveled all over the country. Usually to areas most Chinese don't even go as it was following the trail of investment into the rural west.

Even the thread title is mired in propaganda, no, the city in question is not a prison.

And no, other countries have not come close to lifting so many out of poverty. Even the US during its most rapid development cycles pales in comparison.

Up to 10 million Blacks in the US are still mired in poverty as are a huge percentage of those of Mexican decent. 80% of US prison population comprises these two groups, despite the majority of the populace being White Europeans. So much for liberty.

India is a cluster fuck where the caste system is more oppressive than anything Beijing could pull. The state banned discrimination based on skin tone, yet the state, in its useless efficacy, can't even police its own laws, so it continues unrestricted. HUNDREDS of millions living in extreme poverty, under constant racial abuse and exclusion, and the number is growing. So much for scuffed democracy.

Here in Australia, all 500,000 of our natives are living in poverty, some of them in conditions akin to those in the Congo. 50 years of active programs and effort and they are still not lifted out of poverty. So much for the wonders of chicken shit neoliberal governance.
This paragraph mostly contains whataboutisms, which is always the best strategy to apply when you can't defend something on its own terms. Apologists of the Soviet Union always did that, and now the same is true in internet discourse of China. Anyway moving on to an actual argument...

Anyway, the Chinese communists have done much damage to the Chinese culture and heritage, they committed ~30-60 million excess deaths and wiped away entire chapters of dynastic history and artifacts. Mao is right there alongside Caesar, Hitler, Genghis, and Stalin. But I'm a man of final consequence, and the last 30 years are testament to something else, their reparations. They have made up for that early carnage with the most unprecedented development and betterment of a massive population in human history. They have made their giant democratic neighbor India looks like a criminal enterprise of mismanagement. Their mandate of heaven has finally been earned, in the eyes of the majority of the Chinese population. So speaking of alternatives now is premature, and quite frankly anti-Chinese welfare. Only those who seek to arrest China's rise, and see the populace suffer, are interested in attacking its state 24/7.

Up to two decades of western media China bears bleating during a period of amazing performance and growth; the entire act has grown old and superfluous. Before this it was all about muh Tibet. 4-5 decades of that shit courtesy of loliwood. And now that Tibetans are living 100x better than they did in the 50's with the economy exploding, they've had to shift to a new meme.
I have seen your line of thinking in other threads too, the outcome is what counts, kinda like the end (result) justify the means. OK. I can accept that as a viewpoint, though you can defend any horrible regime that way. I am sure my home country of Germany would have been quite a prosperous nation had the Nazis won the war. The Nazis, too, had the mandate of the people. And remaking Berlin into Germania would see some pretty epic designs realized. That would have been good enough for you, right? Alas, at least we still got prosperous again after the war.

Chinas rise looks impressive in numbers cause they boast the largest population. Apart from that, the forty years development have been nothing unparalled though. One just has to look at Taiwan to prove that:

-in 1989, 40 years after the KMT retreating to the island and establishing their dictatorship (which even at its worst was far better than anything China experienced under the Communist Party), Taiwan had reached a GDP per capita of 9.200 Dollars (18.630 Dollars inflation-adjusted 2018)

-in 2018, at the 40th anniversary of the "Reform and Opening-Up" period of Mainland China, Fujian Province (the one most closely linked with Taiwan historically, geographically, lingustically and culturally, and third-richests province by average GDP) had reached a GDP per capita of 14.100 Dollars. So still quite a margin compared to Taiwan 30 years ago. Colour me not that impressed.

In addition to that, Taiwan had a Gini index of 0.33 in 1989, pointing to a comparatevely equal wealth distribution - which remains pretty good by international standards to this day. China on the other hand has one of the worst in the world, standing at 0.47 in 2018.

Its easy to post pretty pictures of glass and steel towers in Shenzhen (another cultural sinkhole), but most of China remains rather poor. What happened to Tibet (and is happening, still), is a tragedy. The focus is on Xinjiang because recent developments are orders of magnitude worse.

Even by your own standards of what constitutes successful governance (material wealth, strong nation, anything else?), China would likely fare better under most other regimes.
Thankfully, the KMT dictatorship in Taiwan came to an end shortly after, and Taiwan became the first Chinese democracy, and a prosperous one, too. In China itself, economic growth has stalled, and all signs point to hard years ahead. But unlike Taiwan, the prospect is one not of democracy, but of dystopia.

Btw. there is a pretty good alternative history novel by 陳冠中, 建豐二年, you should read it if you get the chance. What would have happend to China had the KMT won the civil war.
 
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MrTickles

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In China itself, economic growth has stalled
You wish I hadn't read this far. You dun goofed. I was going to address the more tenuous 'facts' preceding that little bit of alternate reality, but now I don't have to. You peddle China Uncensored levels of nonsense.

What would have happend to China had the KMT won the civil war.
We know what would have happened to China had the Nationalists won the civil war. Ignoring the period where they were in charge, and where they did such a poor job half the country rebelled.

For starters, if KMT was in charge, there would be Brazil levels of shanty towns all over China. See India, where the Nationalists won their independence from GB. That's how China would have gone. Everything corrupted, all infrastructure gone to crap and with nobody around to afford its reconstruction. There are regions of China with similarly sized populations that have matched Taiwans development, repeatedly across multiple cities. So you can't use that argument. 1.44 billion vs 25 million isn't a valid comparison range. to be fair it should take 80x more time and resources to uplift 80x more people. PRC is managing to do it much quicker than that. That argument is further sidelined by the fact that Taiwan's economy is wholly dependent on mainland industrial capacity and resources. Its economic welfare rests in...the PRC. As PRC grows so will Taiwan, as did Hong Kong.

It's all so ironic, for you to vouch for a KMT alternate history, in a thread about PRC's oppression of Xinjiang natives. You do realize that the Nationalists would have invaded and annexed outer Mongolia, Swathes of India and been a heck of a lot more aggressive/petulant toward minorities, don't you? They are Han Nationalists not fairy godmothers. Taiwan is run by its corporations, just Like South Korea and Japan. The parties are a musical chair sham, just like in Europe and the US. Democracy like a fox.
 
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cryptoadam

... and he cannot lie
Feb 21, 2018
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How long before quoting Jefferson on this is deemed hate speech?
What about Jefferson Statues?

Hofstra University student activists are calling for the removal of a statue of Thomas Jefferson from campus near New York City because they say the third American president represents racism and slavery.

Students participated Friday in the second annual “Jefferson Has Gotta Go!” event over the statue that has been subject to protests and acts of vandalism in the past, with some previously defacing it with “DECOLONIZE” and “Black Lives Matter” slogans.
 

Hypnotoad

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I have been taking a break from work and travelling in Taiwan these last days, but I wanna give a quick update on Xinjiang. A concurrent, bipartisan bill (the Uygur Human Rights Policy Act of 2019) has been introduced in Congress, with dozens of cosponsors, so it has a high chance of passing. The findings sections gives a good overview of things.

Congress makes the following findings:

(1)
The Government of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) has a long history of repressing approximately 13,000,000 Turkic, moderate Sunni Muslims, particularly Uyghurs, in the nominally autonomous Xinjiang region. These actions are in contravention of international human rights standards, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

(2)
In recent decades, central and regional Chinese government policies have systematically discriminated against Uyghurs, ethnic Kazakhs, and other Muslims in Xinjiang by denying them a range of civil and political rights, including the freedoms of expression, religion, movement, and a fair trial, among others.

(3)
Increased unrest in the Xinjiang region as a result of the central government’s severe repression is used in Orwellian fashion by the Government of the People’s Republic of China as evidence of terrorism and separatism and as an excuse for further disproportionate response.

(4)
In 2014, Chinese authorities launched their latest Strike Hard against Violent Extremism campaign, in which the pretext of wide-scale, internationally linked threats of terrorism were used to justify pervasive restrictions on, and gross human rights violations of, the ethnic minority communities of Xinjiang.

(5)
Those policies included—

(A)
pervasive, high-tech surveillance across the region, including the arbitrary collection of biodata, including DNA samples from children, without their knowledge or consent;

(B)
the use of QR codes outside homes to gather information on how frequently individuals pray;

(C)
facial and voice recognition software and predictive policing databases; and

(D)
severe restrictions on the freedom of movement across the region.

(6)
Chinese security forces have never been held accountable for credible reports of mass shootings in Alaqagha (2014), Hanerik (2013), and Siriqbuya (2013), as well as the extrajudicial killings of Abdulbasit Ablimit (2013) and Rozi Osman (2014).

(7)(A)
The August 2016 transfer of former Tibet Autonomous Region Party Secretary Chen Quanguo to become the Xinjiang Party Secretary prompted an acceleration in the crackdown across the region.

(B)
Local officials in Xinjiang have used chilling political rhetoric to describe the purpose of government policy including eradicating tumors and spray[ing] chemicals on crops to kill the weeds.

(C)
Uyghurs are forced to celebrate Chinese cultural traditions, such as Chinese New Year, and unique Uyghur culture is facing eradication due to state control over Uyghur cultural heritage, such as muqam (a musical tradition) and meshrep (traditional cultural gatherings), and due to elimination of the Uyghur language as a medium of instruction in Xinjiang schools and universities.

(8)
In 2017, credible reports found that family members of Uyghurs living outside of China had gone missing inside China, that Chinese authorities were pressuring those outside the country to return, and that individuals were being arbitrarily detained in large numbers.

(9)
There is ample credible evidence provided by scholars, human rights organizations, journalists, and think tanks substantiating the establishment by Chinese authorities of political reeducation camps.

(10)
Independent organizations conducted interviews, including testimonies from Kayrat Samarkan, Omir Bekali, and Mihrigul Tursun, along with others who had been detained in such facilities, who described forced political indoctrination, torture, beatings, food deprivation, and solitary confinement, as well as uncertainty as to the length of detention, humiliation, and denial of religious, cultural, and linguistic freedoms, and confirmed that they were told by guards that the only way to secure release was to demonstrate sufficient political loyalty. Poor conditions and lack of medical treatment at such facilities appear to have contributed to the deaths of some detainees, including the elderly and infirm. Uyghurs Muhammed Salih Hajim (2018), Yaqupjan Naman (2018), Abdughappar Abdujappar (2018), Ayhan Memet (2018), Abdulreshit Seley Hajim (2018), Nurimangul Memet (2018), Adalet Teyip (2018), Abdulehed Mehsum (2017), Hesen Imin (2017), and Sawut Raxman (2017) reportedly died while in the custody of the Chinese authorities in political reeducation camps, without proper investigation of the circumstances.

(11)
Uyghurs and Kazakhs, who have now obtained permanent residence or citizenship in other countries, attest to receiving threats and harassment from Chinese officials.

(12)
Under pressure from the Government of the People's Republic of China, countries have forcibly returned Uyghurs to China in violation of the non-refoulement principle and their well-founded fear of persecution. States returning Uyghurs include Egypt (2017), the United Arab Emirates (2017), Malaysia (2011, 2013), Thailand (2011, 2015), Laos (2010), Burma (2010), Cambodia (2009), Vietnam (2014), Kazakhstan (1999, 2001, 2003, 2006), Uzbekistan (2007), Tajikistan (2011), Pakistan (2003, 2009, 2011), Nepal (2002), and India (2016).

(13)
Six journalists for Radio Free Asia’s Uyghur service have publicly detailed abuses their family members in Xinjiang have endured in response to their work exposing abusive policies across the region.

(14)
Several United States-based companies are conducting business with Xinjiang authorities without sufficient due diligence or safeguards to ensure their business operations do not create or contribute to human rights violations.

(15)
The Government of the People’s Republic of China is increasingly investing in the Belt and Road Initiative across Xinjiang and throughout Central Asia, extending its influence through organizations such as the Shanghai Cooperation Organization without regard to the political, cultural, or linguistic rights of ethnic minorities.

(16)
The Secretary of State, Congressional-Executive Commission on China, Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission, and individual members of the executive branch and Congress have all expressed growing concern regarding the pervasive human rights abuses across Xinjiang and the political reeducation camps.

(17)
In August 2018, the United Nations Committee to Eliminate Racial Discrimination challenged the Government of the People’s Republic of China over abuses in Xinjiang, including the establishment of mass arbitrary detention camps.

(18)
Between August and September 2018, Chinese authorities responded to these allegations by either flatly denying them or insisting that the facilities are vocational training centers.

(19)
In September 2018, newly appointed United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Michele Bachelet noted in her first speech as High Commissioner the deeply disturbing allegations of large-scale arbitrary detentions of Uighurs and other Muslim communities, in so-called re-education camps across Xinjiang.

(20)
On September 18, 2018, the Washington Post editorial board wrote, At stake is not just the welfare of the Uighurs, but also whether the technologies of the 21st century will be employed to smother human freedom.

(21)
In December 2018 testimony before the Subcommittee on East Asia, the Pacific, and International Cybersecurity Policy of the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor Scott Busby testified that the number of those detained in camps since April 2017 was at least 800,000 and possibly more than 2 million.

(22)
In December 2018, independent media reports pointed to growing evidence of forced labor in the camps, as well as reports of individuals who have been released from camps being forced to labor in nearby factories for low wages under threat of being sent back to political reeducation camps.

(23)
In December 2018 and January 2019, Chinese officials organized visits to political reeducation camps in Xinjiang for a small group of foreign journalists and diplomats from 12 non-Western countries. In the months preceding the visits, international media reported that officials worked to remove security features from some political reeducation facilities, and coached detainees and area residents not to make negative comments about the camps. Reports also indicated that officials had transferred large numbers of detainees to detention facilities in other parts of China.

(24)
Experts have described the Xinjiang region as a police state to rival North Korea, with a formalized racism on the order of South African apartheid and the repression in the Xinjiang region as a slow motion Tiananmen.
 

sahlberg

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Oct 27, 2017
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Sorry for the necro, but it is the same topic basically:

This is very scary stuff. I am at the page where they collect the data of when "person who buys gasoline is not the person that owns the car". Jesus, it is worse than I imagined.

EDIT: Moar link https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/05/01/chinas-algorithms-repression/reverse-engineering-xinjiang-police-mass-surveillance
 
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