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[faceless007]

Guys, if it hasn't already been made crystal-clear, here's the fundamental problem with all your talk of encouraging "risk avoidance" and "common sense" and "that's reality" and whatever other bullshit terms you're using to obfuscate the real issue: It doesn't fucking work. It's utterly useless. Every woman in Western society has those same damn platitudes drilled into her head from the time they start growing boobs, by their parents, by the media, by their teachers, by our culture. You aren't telling them anything they haven't been hearing their whole lives. They already know, they already internalize from a very early age that for some strange reason our society puts the onus of not getting raped entirely on them. They get it.

But it doesn't fucking work. Because the real root causes of sexual violence have nothing to do with the trivial, easily visible aspects (low-cut dresses, drinking, dark alleys) we all like to associate with it and which supposedly make it more prevalent but in reality account for very little of the prevalence of actual rape. And so all you're doing is exhorting useless platitudes that have no understanding of the deeper issues to people who already know them and really, that's the last thing they could benefit from hearing, all under the guise of "well I'm just trying to help."

There's this really weird thing that happens every time this topic comes up where so many guys really desperately and really defensively want to cling to their right to give entirely useless and patronizing advice, as if they think the fact that they have good intentions or that they're just being "realistic" (which here is just code for "all I know about rape I get from the news") is enough to make it worthwhile advice. "I'm just giving common sense advice" they say. Or "I'm just advocating reasonable precautions" as if that's all that's needed. And time after time, even after you push back and explain in great detail why it Doesn't. Fucking. Work. and they're really just being patronizing and condescending they continue to insist that maybe it actually does or maybe there's some value in the advice anyway for a select few cases or it's the kind of thing everyone has to deal with (no it really isn't) so what's wrong with it?

See, what's always conspicuously missing from these conversations is how these same guys only give at most a token acknowledgment, if that, to any discussion of the broader root causes of sexual violence and our culture's entirely fucked-up relationship with it. Either they don't know or they don't care; either way, it certainly isn't something they've processed or analyzed or incorporated into their worldview, which makes for an astonishingly naive and incomplete way of dealing with the subject. It's like saying the best way to win the War on Drugs is just to tell people to stop using drugs, which aside from being laughably ignorant, completely overlooks the complicated facets of poverty, inner city communities, racism, law enforcement, and how those make for a perpetual and self-reinforcing cycle of abuse and crime.

So yay, you can pat yourself on the back if you want for extolling a trivially obvious and in-no-way-helpful platitude from your comfy chair about the Real Reasons Rape Happens, but guess what: if you spend so much more of your thought and effort and word count on the issue specifically on the useless, naive quote-unquote "reasonable" things women can do (thus implying that anyone who doesn't follow your sage advice is unreasonable, but oh no, you're certainly not victim-blaming, no way), then your priorities and your energy are demonstrably not actually focused on solving the real problem. All you're doing is giving yourself a license to do the bare minimum (which isn't even a bare minimum because it's actually a net negative rather than a net positive effect) and then walk away because your part is done, and really, what more could you be expected to do? There are rapists out there but that's not your fault, so why is it any of your concern?

And I don't understand why. I don't understand why it is so vitally important for these people to be seen as doing something helpful by giving well-intentioned-but-useless advice, but the instant you ask them to look deeper into the issue and understand why it's actually not that simple at all, they run away and just don't want to deal with it -- or more likely they insist on continuing to bring it back to the shitty "reasonable" advice over and over no matter how much you try to shift the discussion to something more useful. They think that's the absolute maximum they can be asked to do or that it's the only piece of the puzzle that they should even be concerned with. They never acknowledge the complexities of it or give any more than a token "Yes I know that..." to how the issue really needs to be tackled on multiple fronts head-on. They simultaneously don't care, but they really really do care about making sure their Totally New and Improved Advice is heard and understood by everyone because they really really want to help! Just, you know, not in a way that requires introspection or deep thought.

All they explicitly focus on is the "don't go into dark alleys while drunk without any friends and wearing a dress and no panties without any pepper spray while having an active sexual history unless you've had self-defense training" and think they're being helpful. No, you're not helping. No, your giving this advice has not done one iota to solve the issue. It hasn't prevented a single rape, it hasn't convinced a single woman that she needs to do anything differently, all you've done is deflect the responsibility of not getting raped entirely onto women. Yes, entirely. I say entirely because have you spent a minute of your time, written out a single post, engaged in a single act of activism, focused on getting law enforcement to take sexual assault more seriously or counseled boys on exactly what consent is or spoken out against media that makes fun of rape victims or dismantling the power structures that make it easy for rape and sexual assault to be covered up? No. All you've done is issue lots of directives onto an entire gender while simultaneously washing your hands of any further responsibility and then complimented yourself on how helpful you've been.

Isn't that convenient.

 

[Mononoke]

EDIT: I guess I missed the point of his post.

 

[User 100115]

Guys, if it hasn't already been made crystal-clear, here's the fundamental problem with all your talk of encouraging "risk avoidance" and "common sense" and "that's reality" and whatever other bullshit terms you're using to obfuscate the real issue: It doesn't fucking work. It's utterly useless. Every woman in Western society has those same damn platitudes drilled into her head from the time they start growing boobs, by their parents, by the media, by their teachers, by our culture. You aren't telling them anything they haven't been hearing their whole lives. They already know, they already internalize from a very early age that for some strange reason our society puts the onus of not getting raped entirely on them. They get it.

But it doesn't fucking work. Because the real root causes of sexual violence have nothing to do with the trivial, easily visible aspects (low-cut dresses, drinking, dark alleys) we all like to associate with it and which supposedly make it more prevalent but in reality account for very little of the prevalence of actual rape. And so all you're doing is exhorting useless platitudes that have no understanding of the deeper issues to people who already know them and really, that's the last thing they could benefit from hearing, all under the guise of "well I'm just trying to help."

There's this really weird thing that happens every time this topic comes up where so many guys really desperately and really defensively want to cling to their right to give entirely useless and patronizing advice, as if they think the fact that they have good intentions or that they're just being "realistic" (which here is just code for "all I know about rape I get from the news") is enough to make it worthwhile advice. "I'm just giving common sense advice" they say. Or "I'm just advocating reasonable precautions" as if that's all that's needed. And time after time, even after you push back and explain in great detail why it Doesn't. Fucking. Work. and they're really just being patronizing and condescending they continue to insist that maybe it actually does or maybe there's some value in the advice anyway for a select few cases or it's the kind of thing everyone has to deal with (no it really isn't) so what's wrong with it?

See, what's always conspicuously missing from these conversations is how these same guys only give at most a token acknowledgment, if that, to any discussion of the broader root causes of sexual violence and our culture's entirely fucked-up relationship with it. Either they don't know or they don't care; either way, it certainly isn't something they've processed or analyzed or incorporated into their worldview, which makes for an astonishingly naive and incomplete way of dealing with the subject. It's like saying the best way to win the War on Drugs is just to tell people to stop using drugs, which aside from being laughably ignorant, completely overlooks the complicated facets of poverty, inner city communities, racism, law enforcement, and how those make for a perpetual and self-reinforcing cycle of abuse and crime.

So yay, you can pat yourself on the back if you want for extolling a trivially obvious and in-no-way-helpful platitude from your comfy chair about the Real Reasons Rape Happens, but guess what: if you spend so much more of your thought and effort and word count on the issue specifically on the useless, naive quote-unquote "reasonable" things women can do (thus implying that anyone who doesn't follow your sage advice is unreasonable, but oh no, you're certainly not victim-blaming, no way), then your priorities and your energy are demonstrably not actually focused on solving the real problem. All you're doing is giving yourself a license to do the bare minimum (which isn't even a bare minimum because it's actually a net negative rather than a net positive effect) and then walk away because your part is done, and really, what more could you be expected to do? There are rapists out there but that's not your fault, so why is it any of your concern?

And I don't understand why. I don't understand why it is so vitally important for these people to be seen as doing something helpful by giving well-intentioned-but-useless advice, but the instant you ask them to look deeper into the issue and understand why it's actually not that simple at all, they run away and just don't want to deal with it -- or more likely they insist on continuing to bring it back to the shitty "reasonable" advice over and over no matter how much you try to shift the discussion to something more useful. They think that's the absolute maximum they can be asked to do or that it's the only piece of the puzzle that they should even be concerned with. They never acknowledge the complexities of it or give any more than a token "Yes I know that..." to how the issue really needs to be tackled on multiple fronts head-on. They simultaneously don't care, but they really really do care about making sure their Totally New and Improved Advice is heard and understood by everyone because they really really want to help! Just, you know, not in a way that requires introspection or deep thought.

All they explicitly focus on is the "don't go into dark alleys while drunk without any friends and wearing a dress and no panties without any pepper spray while having an active sexual history unless you've had self-defense training" and think they're being helpful. No, you're not helping. No, your giving this advice has not done one iota to solve the issue. It hasn't prevented a single rape, it hasn't convinced a single woman that she needs to do anything differently, all you've done is deflect the responsibility of not getting raped entirely onto women. Yes, entirely. I say entirely because have you spent a minute of your time, written out a single post, engaged in a single act of activism, focused on getting law enforcement to take sexual assault more seriously or counseled boys on exactly what consent is or spoken out against media that makes fun of rape victims or dismantling the power structures that make it easy for rape and sexual assault to be covered up? No. All you've done is issue lots of directives onto an entire gender while simultaneously washing your hands of any further responsibility and then complimented yourself on how helpful you've been.

Isn't that convenient.

You've said what I've been trying to say all along in a much more eloquent manner. This is an amazing post. Thank you.

I disagree. There are certainly things you can do to help prevent yourself being a victim of a crime (and I'm not just talking about rape). However, there shouldn't be a sole focus on this, and there certainly shouldn't be emphasis placed on this as a way to blame the victim, and not blame the crime itself.

You are right that taking preventative measures is never full proof. Again, even outside of rape, you aren't ever guaranteed to be safe or to not be a victim of a crime. But there are still things one can do to better their chance of not being a victim. Even something as simple as "not walking alone in certain areas by yourself". Or, never partying with a group of people that you don't know (or at least having a friend or friends with you).

Those are common sense things, and are certainly things that should be taught to be people. Also no one is saying this kind of advice is "solving" the issue of rape. Anyone that believes these things "solve" rape, or stop it are delusional.

You are talking about other crimes, let me give you an example:

People keep saying 'Well, I always lock my doors, that's a reasonable precaution!'. These 'tips' are more like telling people to always lock their doors, and then when they do get robbed, coming back and saying 'Well, you didn't have Ultralock5000, you should have had that instead of UltraLock4500.'

 

[Sai-kun]

Aaaaaaaaaaa ether.

 

[Mononoke]

You've said what I've been trying to say all along in a much more eloquent manner. This is an amazing post. Thank you.

You are talking about other crimes, let me give you an example:

People keep saying 'Well, I always lock my doors, that's a reasonable precaution!'. These 'tips' are more like telling people to always lock their doors, and then when they do get robbed, coming back and saying 'Well, you didn't have Ultralock5000, you should have had that instead of UltraLock4500.'

I just don't agree that we shouldn't give out common sense advice. It should be understood that taking preventative measures is not 100% going to stop you from being victimized. And it should also be understood that this advice is not a solution to the problem. We should be actively trying to fix the problem, and deal with it instead of just giving "advice" as a solution. So believe me, I understand where you are coming from (I went to public school, and all too well know the shitty advice of JUST SAY NO, or DO THESE THINGS blah blah).

So I agree with you guys there. But I don't agree that we should just outright not give common sense advice.

 

[The Technomancer]

I sort of disagree. There are certainly things you can do to help prevent yourself being a victim of a crime (and I'm not just talking about rape). However, there shouldn't be a sole focus on this, and there certainly shouldn't be emphasis placed on this as a way to blame the victim, and it definitely should not be used as a way to avoid the actual problem (or dealing with the problem). I agree with you 100% in that sense.

You are right that taking preventative measures is never full proof. Again, even outside of rape, you aren't ever guaranteed to be safe or to not be a victim of a crime. But there are still things one can do to better their chance of not being a victim. Even something as simple as "not walking alone in certain areas by yourself". Or, never partying with a group of people that you don't know (or at least having a friend or friends with you).

Those are common sense things, and are certainly things that should be taught to be people. Also no one is saying this kind of advice is "solving" the issue of rape. Anyone that believes these things "solve" rape, or stop it are delusional. So while I understand where you are coming from in terms of how people use this kind of advice negatively, it doesn't mean the advice shouldn't be given at all.

You're kind of missing the broader point. The vast vast majority (dare I say all) of the advice that gets parroted is either not actually all that helpful (being alone in an alley can be dangerous, well no shit sherlock) or else unreasonable (oh well don't wear attractive clothing or ever get drunk, I guess you gals just get to live like nuns while you watch all the men enjoy themselves). The only real person the advice helps is the person giving it, by making them think that they have some kind of grip on the topic when, since as we've covered the advice is basically worthless and they're apparently offering it earnestly, they don't

 

[faceless007]

I just don't agree that we shouldn't give out common sense advice. It should be understood that taking preventative measures is not 100% going to stop you from being victimized. And it should also be understood that this advice is not a solution to the problem.

So I agree with you guys there. But I don't agree that we should just outright not give common sense advice.

What part of "It. Doesn't. Fucking. Help." was unclear to you?

You're proving to be a great example of the person who, as I said, spends so much of their time and energy defending their right to give patronizing paternalistic advice, while spending fuck-all addressing the problem on any other front.

 

[Mononoke]

You're kind of missing the broader point. The vast vast majority (dare I say all) of the advice that gets parroted is either not actually all that helpful (being alone in an alley can be dangerous, well no shit sherlock) or else unreasonable (oh well don't wear attractive clothing or ever get drunk, I guess you gals just get to live like nuns while you watch all the men enjoy themselves). The only real person the advice helps is the person giving it, by making them think that they have some kind of grip on the topic when, since as we've covered the advice is basically worthless and they're apparently offering it earnestly, they don't

Sometimes common sense is taken for granted. If I had a child, I would absolutely tell them to not walk alone in a dark alleyway by themselves. I agree it's a not shit Sherlock moment, but it's still worth telling them. And I would also tell my kids to not get black out drunk with people they don't know. Absolutely.

I don't think by giving this advice, I'm doing so to act as if I have a grip on the topic that I really don't.

What part of "It. Doesn't. Fucking. Help." was unclear to you?

EDIT: Just see my posts below. I was wrong. Simply put, I missed the point of the post.

 

[Black-Box]

I just always thought it is like a wild animal instinct. You see in the wild some birds will use colors to attract the mate or going after the weak looking animal.

I don't think this is a simple issue. I also don't believe the only reason for rape is power.

I think this is extremely complex.

 

[Shinta]

See, what's always conspicuously missing from these conversations is how these same guys only give at most a token acknowledgment, if that, to any discussion of the broader root causes of sexual violence and our culture's entirely fucked-up relationship with it. Either they don't know or they don't care; either way, it certainly isn't something they've processed or analyzed or incorporated into their worldview, which makes for an astonishingly naive and incomplete way of dealing with the subject.

What are the broader root causes of sexual violence then, faceless?

I thought I made a post about that already. I touched on nature vs. nurture, past cases of abuse, genetic and brain chemistry abnormalities, public services and government intervention, age restrictions on mature media for underage people, parenting effectiveness, and then we just had a brief conversation about flaws in the legal system.

Do you have a different theory?

And I don't understand why. I don't understand why it is so vitally important for these people to be seen as doing something helpful by giving well-intentioned-but-useless advice, but the instant you ask them to look deeper into the issue and understand why it's actually not that simple at all, they run away and just don't want to deal with it -- or more likely they insist on continuing to bring it back to the shitty "reasonable" advice over and over no matter how much you try to shift the discussion to something more useful.

No one here is running away from anything. If you want to bring up a point, just do it. In fact, most people are posting candid opinions despite the very real threat of being banned, which is the opposite of running away.

They never acknowledge the complexities of it or give any more than a token "Yes I know that..." to how the issue really needs to be tackled on multiple fronts head-on.

What complexities are you specifically referring to? For the record, someone saying "yes I know that" would be acknowledging it.

All they explicitly focus on is the "don't go into dark alleys while drunk without any friends and wearing a dress and no panties without any pepper spray while having an active sexual history unless you've had self-defense training" and think they're being helpful. No, you're not helping. No, your giving this advice has not done one iota to solve the issue. It hasn't prevented a single rape,

I don't know if that's true. You don't think a single rape can be prevented by being mindful of your surroundings and avoiding dangerous places alone?

all you've done is deflect the responsibility of not getting raped entirely onto women.

Everyone in this thread has repeatedly denied that claim. The responsibility rests solely on the attacker. We're just talking about reasonable precautions, not assigning blame.

 

[User 100115]

I just don't agree that we shouldn't give out common sense advice. It should be understood that taking preventative measures is not 100% going to stop you from being victimized. And it should also be understood that this advice is not a solution to the problem.

So I agree with you guys there. But I don't agree that we should just outright not give common sense advice.

The point is that it's NOT really common sense advice. It doesn't matter what a person does or doesn't do, the only common denominator is being in the presence of a person capable of rape. And since people aren't mind readers, there is no way to really mitigate that risk.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

I just don't agree that we shouldn't give out common sense advice. It should be understood that taking preventative measures is not 100% going to stop you from being victimized. And it should also be understood that this advice is not a solution to the problem. We should be actively trying to fix the problem, and deal with it instead of just giving "advice" as a solution. So believe me, I understand where you are coming from (I went to public school, and all too well know the shitty advice of JUST SAY NO, or DO THESE THINGS blah blah).

So I agree with you guys there. But I don't agree that we should just outright not give common sense advice.

Haha what? You think that women need to have common sense advice imparted on them?

 

[Mononoke]

The point is that it's NOT really common sense advice. It doesn't matter what a person does or doesn't do, the only common denominator is being in the presence of a person capable of rape. And since people aren't mind readers, there is no way to really mitigate that risk.

Okay. I apologize for missing that point. I'm truly sorry. I didn't mean to derail his post.

Haha what? You think that women need to have common sense advice imparted on them?

Nope. I mean common sense in general (such as knowing your surroundings, and who you are with). I do think kids sometimes take that for granted. That said, see my posts below, I was wrong. It was a stupid post.

 

[The Technomancer]

Please don't turn ridiculously self-depreciating as a response to people disagreeing with you. It could be earnest or sarcastic but it comes off as sarcastic and snippy

 

[Gustav]

So instead of giving women useless common sense advice, what do we do?

 

[Mononoke]

Please don't turn ridiculously self-depreciating as a response to people disagreeing with you. It could be earnest or sarcastic but it comes off as sarcastic and snippy

I'm being 100% genuine. I recognize that I made a mistake. Honestly, the only way I can learn is admitting that I'm ignorant. And clearly my way of thinking here was ignorant.

But I can't become a better person unless I admit that ignorance and learn from my mistake. I actually get where you are guys are coming from, and why my way of thinking was stupid.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm being 100% genuine. I recognize that I made a mistake. Honestly, the only way I can learn is admitting that I'm ignorant. And clearly my way of thinking here was ignorant.

But I can't become a better person unless I admit that ignorance and learn from my mistake. I actually get where you are guys are coming from, and why my way of thinking was stupid.

Thanks. Its just phrases like "clearly I'm an idiot here" can be either earnest or a person going "well cleeeeeearly I just don't know what I'm talking about so excuuuuse me"

 

[Valhelm]

I just don't agree that we shouldn't give out common sense advice. It should be understood that taking preventative measures is not 100% going to stop you from being victimized. And it should also be understood that this advice is not a solution to the problem. We should be actively trying to fix the problem, and deal with it instead of just giving "advice" as a solution. So believe me, I understand where you are coming from (I went to public school, and all too well know the shitty advice of JUST SAY NO, or DO THESE THINGS blah blah).

So I agree with you guys there. But I don't agree that we should just outright not give common sense advice.

The fact that "don't wear a short skirt" is seen as common sense shows that our culture has a huge fucking problem with its treatment of rape.

It's disgusting that women are supposed to be responsible for their own sexual safety. The only way to prevent rape is to breed less rapists.

 

[faceless007]

I'm being 100% genuine. I recognize that I made a mistake. Honestly, the only way I can learn is admitting that I'm ignorant. And clearly my way of thinking here was ignorant.

But I can't become a better person unless I admit that ignorance and learn from my mistake. I actually get where you are guys are coming from, and why my way of thinking was stupid.

I apologize for being snarky.

Like I said, I know the impulse comes from good intentions, but the issue really needs much more than that.

 

[Mononoke]

Thanks. Its just phrases like "clearly I'm an idiot here" can be either earnest or a person going "well cleeeeeearly I just don't know what I'm talking about so excuuuuse me"

Sorry I'll edit my post. I didn't mean for it come off that way. Look, I know my view points are flawed. I wouldn't be posting on a forum like this if I thought my way of thinking was always 100% correct.

I was obviously in the wrong here, and missed the point. I just hope I didn't offend anyone, as this is an extremely serious subject. I guess now reflecting on why my thinking was wrong (and why you guys jumped on me), I see why the way of thinking is pretty terrible (because the advice doesn't work, so it essentially is trivializing the matter and not actually dealing with the issue and working towards fixing it).

For that, I'm sorry.

The fact that "don't wear a short skirt" is seen as common sense shows that our culture has a huge fucking problem with its treatment of rape.

It's disgusting that women are supposed to be responsible for their own sexual safety. The only way to prevent rape is to breed less rapists.

I mean more so common sense, in knowing where your surroundings are. Not how you dress. But yeah, my post was pretty stupid, because as others have pointed out, even knowing where your surroundings are (or who you are with) won't stop someone from victimizing you.

 

[Trey]

Please don't turn ridiculously self-depreciating as a response to people disagreeing with you. It could be earnest or sarcastic but it comes off as sarcastic and snippy

Azula is good people.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Sorry I'll edit my post. I didn't mean for it come off that way. Look, I know my view points are flawed. I wouldn't be posting on a forum like this if I thought my way of thinking was always 100% correct.

I was obviously in the wrong here, and missed the point. I just hope I didn't offend anyone, as this is an extremely serious subject. I guess now reflecting on why my thinking was wrong (and why you guys jumped on me), I see why the way of thinking is pretty terrible (because the advice doesn't work, so it essentially is trivializing the matter and not actually dealing with the issue and working towards fixing it).

For that, I'm sorry.

You're fine, everyone gets it, i think it's just easy to lose sight that this isn't always an echo chamber and sometimes minds can be changed. It's cool of you to be so open about it.

 

[User 100115]

So instead of giving women useless common sense advice, what do we do?

Don't perpetuate the idea that women are 'prey' or 'the enemy' and sex is 'scoring' against them. Don't perpetuate the 'us vs them' mentality of men vs women. That women have to be tricked into sex. That women withhold sex as punishment. Etc.

And completely shit on anyone in your life who holds those opinions.

 

[kinggroin]

The fact that "don't wear a short skirt" is seen as common sense shows that our culture has a huge fucking problem with its treatment of rape.

It's disgusting that women are supposed to be responsible for their own sexual safety. The only way to prevent rape is to breed less rapists.

Defenders of that argument are doing a completely shitty job of explaining themselves, and its coming off more like, "ugh how fucked is this world if you believe what you do?!"


I've spoken with my sister who has experience on the matter. I retract my opinion on the topic for now. She did a helluva job making me understand that pov

 

[Mononoke]

You're fine, everyone gets it, i think it's just easy to lose sight that this isn't always an echo chamber and sometimes minds can be changed. It's cool of you to be so open about it.

Well I'm going to stop posting about me being sorry (since I don't want too much of this being about me). But I really wanted to thank you guys for taking the time to explain why I was wrong in my way of thinking. I really do appreciate it. And yes, I think everyone should be open minded. Sometimes you are just wrong. And you can't fix that, if you can't be open to admitting you are wrong.

I actually did learn a pretty big lesson here today.

 

[User 100115]

Sorry I'll edit my post. I didn't mean for it come off that way. Look, I know my view points are flawed. I wouldn't be posting on a forum like this if I thought my way of thinking was always 100% correct.

I was obviously in the wrong here, and missed the point. I just hope I didn't offend anyone, as this is an extremely serious subject. I guess now reflecting on why my thinking was wrong (and why you guys jumped on me), I see why the way of thinking is pretty terrible (because the advice doesn't work, so it essentially is trivializing the matter and not actually dealing with the issue and working towards fixing it).

For that, I'm sorry.
.

Thank you for this post. This is an incredibly difficult subject for me to discuss, and I do it because I think it's important to educate people on the reality of the situation. It seems hopeless a lot of times here on Gaf, since people rarely change their minds, so thanks for reminding me that it's not.

 

[Gustav]

Don't perpetuate the idea that women are 'prey' or 'the enemy' and sex is 'scoring' against them. Don't perpetuate the 'us vs them' mentality of men vs women. That women have to be tricked into sex. That women withhold sex as punishment. Etc.

And completely shit on anyone in your life who holds those opinions.

Sounds reasonable. I have never heard a person talk about women in those terms, though. It's also hard for me to believe that shunning people for their mentality/opinion will be significantly more successful in preventing rapes than giving common sense advice.

 

[Mumei]

I've spoken with my sister who has experience on the matter. I retract my opinion on the topic for now. She did a helluva job making me understand that pov

What did she tell you?

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Well I'm going to stop posting about me being sorry (since I don't want too much of this being about me). But I really wanted to thank you guys for taking the time to explain why I was wrong in my way of thinking. I really do appreciate it. And yes, I think everyone should be open minded. Sometimes you are just wrong. And you can't fix that, if you can't be open to admitting you are wrong.

I actually did learn a pretty big lesson here today.

This is why I always take issue with people piping in on these topics one page into it and saying how they should be locked because people never change their minds. These conversations are important and this shows just how important they are.

 

[User 100115]

Sounds reasonable. I have never heard a person talk about women in those terms, though. It's also hard for me to believe that shunning people for their mentality/opinion will be significantly more successful in preventing rapes than giving common sense advice.

You've never heard someone refer to having sex as 'scoring'? Or treat sex like it's something to chase down and acquire? Or shame male virgins because they aren't 'real men'?

And you'd be surprised. In the case of say, Stubenville, if even one person in the room had stood up and said 'Holy shit, what the hell are you doing, that's wrong!' the girl might not have been raped.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Sounds reasonable. I have never heard a person talk about women in those terms, though. It's also hard for me to believe that shunning people for their mentality/opinion will be significantly more successful in preventing rapes than giving common sense advice.

People change all the time when their views are shunned by the people around them, why else do you think acceptance of LGBT people has grown so much so quickly over the past few years? Making people understand that what they think and how they behave isn't acceptable is infinitely more useful than telling a potential victim to stop being a potential victim by doing something that really won't help.

 

[Valhelm]

I mean more so common sense, in knowing where your surroundings are. Not how you dress. But yeah, my post was pretty stupid, because as others have pointed out, even knowing where your surroundings are (or who you are with) won't stop someone from victimizing you.

I think most rapes are committed by familiar people in familiar surroundings.

 

[Takuan]

In the case of say, Stubenville, if even one person in the room had stood up and said 'Holy shit, what the hell are you doing, that's wrong!' the girl might not have been raped.

Given the outcome of that case, I'd be more inclined to believe anyone who stood out against it would've been ostracized the same way Daisy for daring to speak about what they did to her. Those football players were enabled by just about every authority figure they knew of, it's pretty sickening.

There actually was one person doing that. In the leaked video there's a guy off-screen who repeatedly calls what is happening rape and tries to get the other boys to recognize that. Unfortunately no one heeded him.

What? Is this the same video that mysteriously disappeared?

 

[Mumei]

Valhelm, I'll try to answer your post when I'm at home; I can't write much here.

You've never heard someone refer to having sex as 'scoring'? Or treat sex like it's something to chase down and acquire? Or shame male virgins because they aren't 'real men'?

And you'd be surprised. In the case of say, Stubenville, if even one person in the room had stood up and said 'Holy shit, what the hell are you doing, that's wrong!' the girl might not have been raped.

There actually was one person doing that. In the leaked video there's a guy off-screen who repeatedly calls what is happening rape and tries to get the other boys to recognize that. Unfortunately no one heeded him.

And unfortunately even that guy didn't alert the authorities.

I think most rapes are committed by familiar people in familiar surroundings.

The number is around 80 percent, if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[User 100115]

Given the outcome of that case, I'd be more inclined to believe anyone who stood out against it would've been ostracized the same way Daisy for daring to speak about what they did to her. Those football players were enabled by just about every authority figure they knew of, it's pretty sickening.

That's what I am talking about though. If more people would buck the 'she deserved it/she was a whore/boys will be boys' mindset and actually shamed the people who raped instead, less rapes would happen.

There actually was one person doing that. In the leaked video there's a guy off-screen who repeatedly calls what is happening rape and tries to get the other boys to recognize that. Unfortunately no one heeded him.

And unfortunately even that guy didn't alert the authorities.
.

Never watched the video, couldn't stomach it

But yeah, again, that mindset held everyone back.

 

[Gustav]

You've never heard someone refer to having sex as 'scoring'? Or treat sex like it's something to chase down and acquire? Or shame male virgins because they aren't 'real men'?

And you'd be surprised. In the case of say, Stubenville, if even one person in the room had stood up and said 'Holy shit, what the hell are you doing, that's wrong!' the girl might not have been raped.

You've never heard someone refer to having sex as 'scoring'?

Nobody has ever said "I'm gonna score some tonight" or similar in my presence, at least as far as I remember.

Or treat sex like it's something to chase down and acquire?

Same. There might be some guys that complain that they are not getting enough sex at home, but I doubt that's what you meant.

Or shame male virgins because they aren't 'real men'?

Never, ever.

 

[kinggroin]

What did she tell you?

She explained a lot better how there aren't only one type of rapists. Like, it's not just about showing skin, but it can be about being blonde or a man or be fully clothed even. Accounting for all of it is far too much to ask of a woman (or man) and instead, its better to train people in general how to get out of a hairy situation if it happens as well as, how we need to work on maturing as a society so that rapists in general exist far less.

There's way more detail involved, but its quite personal (again, she used her own experiences).



Now if similar arguments were made in this thread, its hard to sift through to find them. So maybe we can have some added to the OP? Just saying before you go, "well maybe if you read the whole thread!" *BAN*

 

[Mononoke]

Valhelm, I'll try to answer your post when I'm at home; I can't write much here.



There actually was one person doing that. In the leaked video there's a guy off-screen who repeatedly calls what is happening rape and tries to get the other boys to recognize that. Unfortunately no one heeded him.

And unfortunately even that guy didn't alert the authorities.



The number is around 80 percent, if I'm remembering correctly.

That is atrocious. I make no excuse for my own ignorance. But I can't believe this isn't more common knowledge taught in schools. Well, at least when I had health classes in the U.S., this was never taught.

Again, doesn't excuse my own ignorance (especially since I actually made a post about a subject clearly I don't know enough about).

 

[Jarate]

Nobody has ever said "I'm gonna score some tonight" or similar in my presence, at least as far as I remember.


Same. There might be some guys that complain that they are not getting enough sex at home, but I doubt that's what you meant.


Never, ever.

When someone says "score" I think that doesn't mean they are keeping track of it as some type of game, I think they are just using it as a euphemism.

But men do complain about not having enough sex, but that's pretty natural, and not any conditions to assume the man is malicious in any way. Women complain all the time about the same shit. People want to screw, and when that doesn't happen, they'll complain.

Also, virgins get made fun of regardless of gender, because most in that time period assume that it's because you're too fucked up to have sex or something.

 

[Marty Chinn]

What part of "It. Doesn't. Fucking. Help." was unclear to you?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I would like further clarification on a few things. How do we determine that it doesn't work? It's unlikely we're going to get any type of statistic that shows, well I would have been raped, but I did this, because the rape never happened and the encounter never happened. So how do we know that the steps that a person took didn't actually help prevent them from being in a bad situation? Not trying to put blame, but saying how to we judge that minimizing risk doesn't actually minimize risk when you completely avoided it from happening and probably never knew it would have? I just want a better understanding how we can definitively say that minimizing risk doesn't help at all.

So then if we don't think minimizing risk advice helps, what do I as a father tell my daughter as advice? Just tell her there are bad people out there and to be safe and that's it? Where do I learn about things I should tell her to help her if we don't want this conversation on a bigger scale? I'm not a female, so it certainly was not implanted on me. It seems to me that not talking about good advice to some degree can be bad for those who aren't sure what advice to give.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want a better understanding so I can make an informed decision on what I should or should not do to raise my little girl. God forbid I hope nothing ever happens, but I feel like I have to guide her somehow.

 

[APF]

We don't know. There might be things that increase the possibility, there might not be. Clothing in any case or example, isn't the only factor, however it might be a significant one. Maybe certain colors increase the possibility of rape. We don't know.

We do know. Clothing not a significant factor compared to not having boyfriends, fiancees, husbands, or male acquaintances or family members.

 

[Banglish]

Because, men.

 

[Reeks]

a buck ass naked person can be raped. this is so tired. but it IS asked, speaking from personal experience.

 

[User 100115]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I would like further clarification on a few things. How do we determine that it doesn't work? It's unlikely we're going to get any type of statistic that shows, well I would have been raped, but I did this, because the rape never happened and the encounter never happened. So how do we know that the steps that a person took didn't actually help prevent them from being in a bad situation? Not trying to put blame, but saying how to we judge that minimizing risk doesn't actually minimize risk when you completely avoided it from happening and probably never knew it would have? I just want a better understanding how we can definitively say that minimizing risk doesn't help at all.

So then if we don't think minimizing risk advice helps, what do I as a father tell my daughter as advice? Just tell her there are bad people out there and to be safe and that's it? Where do I learn about things I should tell her to help her if we don't want this conversation on a bigger scale? I'm not a female, so it certainly was not implanted on me. It seems to me that not talking about good advice to some degree can be bad for those who aren't sure what advice to give.

Because as I've said before, the only common denominator in all rapes is being in the presence of a rapist. Women of all sorts get raped. They get raped in every location you can think of, by every type of person imaginable, but mostly by people they already trust. The circumstances surrounding their rapes are as varied.

It doesn't help in the end. All it does is perpetuate the idea that women are to blame for their own rapes for not being responsible enough.

Can you imagine a male rape victim being questioned as to whether he really wanted it or not because he was looking quite fetching that evening?

 

[Valhelm]

Nobody has ever said "I'm gonna score some tonight" or similar in my presence, at least as far as I remember.


Same. There might be some guys that complain that they are not getting enough sex at home, but I doubt that's what you meant.


Never, ever.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that you've never heard that. Where do you live? Since eighth grade, I've heard guys lie, joke, or brag about"scoring" almost daily. And you aren't familiar with the pretty massive pressures guys have to lose their virginity?

A friend of mine, who's a bit of an idiot, lied about losing it twice during high school. You've never encountered that?

 

[JesseEwiak]

"Rapists are more likely to be a serial criminal than a serial rapist.

46% of rapists who were released from prison were re-arrested within 3 years of their release for another crime.4

18.6% for a violent offense.
14.8% for a property offense.
11.2% for a drug offense.
20.5% for a public-order offense."

That's a stunning statistic to me. So does this mean that a lot of women are intimate friends with criminals? Since it says most are people they know, and it occurs at one of their houses.

I realize this is pages back, but this is pretty simple. As other people have pointed out, most rape is either unreported or no conviction is ever made. In all reality, the rapists that actually get convicted are the dumbest most obvious ones, for the most part. They're far more likely to already be involved in crime, thus, it's not a surprise they get back in the saddle once they're out of jail.

In other words, the girl that gets date or after party raped by a guy who they know likely isn't going to report that crime, partly due to everything said in this thread.

Also, the one thing that has lowered rape rates, more than telling women not to dress slutty - empowering women in a society. It's not a shock that as a nation gets closer to true equality, their rape levels drop. After all, I'm betting the women in India who we read those terrible stories about being raped multiple times in a day are dressed far less provocatively than the average club goer in New York City.

 

[Valhelm]

I realize this is pages back, but this is pretty simple. As other people have pointed out, most rape is either unreported or no conviction is ever made. In all reality, the rapists that actually get convicted are the dumbest most obvious ones, for the most part. They're far more likely to already be involved in crime, thus, it's not a surprise they get back in the saddle once they're out of jail.

In other words, the girl that gets date or after party raped by a guy who they know likely isn't going to report that crime, partly due to everything said in this thread.

Also, the one thing that has lowered rape rates, more than telling women not to dress slutty - empowering women in a society. It's not a shock that as a nation gets closer to true equality, their rape levels drop.

I'm assuming that marital rape isn't even considered in the statistic about rapists.

 

[The Technomancer]

When someone says "score" I think that doesn't mean they are keeping track of it as some type of game, I think they are just using it as a euphemism.

What's the origin of that euphemism though? It ties back to "achievement". Even if you just view it as "getting some" its still treating sex as a thing to be acquired.

Also, virgins get made fun of regardless of gender, because most in that time period assume that it's because you're too fucked up to have sex or something.

While I'm sure theres some female virgin shaming going on our culture really really tries to make "our little girls" remain pure for as long as possible. While also bombarding them with messages about how important sex is and how they should provide it. This contradiction produces a really weird dysfunctional dynamic for a lot of young women.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The number is around 80 percent, if I'm remembering correctly.

Higher. For serious sexual offences, approximately 90 percent knew the perpetrator[1]. The same report estimates there are roughly 25,000 rapes each year in the United Kingdom, of which 5,000 are reported to the police, of which 1,300 have a suspect identified, of which 1,000 are taken to court, of which 300 are successfully convicted. This is comparable with most Western countries.

 

[Pseudo_Sam]

I don't think the way a woman dresses has much effect on her likelihood of being raped. I would image a would-be rapist would be of a mindset to attack regardless of clothing. I don't know this for a fact, but it makes sense to me.

I would imagine, however, that the time and place where a woman is would have a significant effect on her likelihood of being raped. A rapist would be much less likely to act at noon in broad daylight than they would in the middle of the night in a relatively secluded area. Avoiding such areas at such times would probably significantly decrease the chance of a rape happening.

Of course a rape is never the woman's fault, but being cautious and aware of your surroundings is never a bad thing.