How do websites get radicalized?

[Chairmanchuck]

Like you had ebaumsworld, which started of normal, then descended into hate-speech and stuff in the mid 00s.
After that it was 4chan which was actually a pretty chill place in its first year. Even /b/ was heavily moderated, then you know what happened.
Reddit was the same. 4channers at that time said "Look at those pussies. Afraid to tell the truth!" Now you have stuff like red_pill, trump subreddits etc.
The same is happening to 9gag. It was a "tame" version of the early 4chan. Just some memes, funny images etc. Now you see Hitler jokes, serious "SJWs are bad" posts, "Putin is the best!" images and stuff like that.

I wonder if a lot of websites become like that and why? Are the people really influenced by others and so such views become bigger and bigger or are there people from other websites posting such stuffs and "overtaking" those websites?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Right wing reactionaries are loud, obnoxious and love the sound of their own voice so get enough of them in one place and everyone else leaves because it's not worth the time to argue with them because it's a fruitless endeavour

 

[cartographer]

You view absolute freedom of expression as the one value worth pursuing above all others and because humans have a lot of shit heads that naturally attracts bigots looking for a safe space.

 

[Chasm Skulker]

The right is better at memes.

 

[Kayhan]

At least we still have NeoGAF.

 

[Laieon]

I don't think Reddit should count. Saying "How did Reddit get radicalized?" is like saying "How did Invisionfree get radicalized?". For every subreddit you find saying one thing, you'll find one saying the exact opposite. For every /r/T_D, there's an /r/politics. For every /r/red_pill (or whatever it is) there's /r/TwoXChromosomes.

Hell, I would almost say the same thing about 4chan /b/ and /pol/ aside. The art boards are some of the best on the net imo. Don't think I've ever found a photography forum as good as their photography board is.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

You view absolute freedom of expression as the one value worth pursuing above all others and because humans have a lot of shit heads that naturally attracts bigots looking for a safe space.

But if you already have 1 safe space, why spread it to other sites.
If I already have a safe-space in /pol/ with people who think alike, why would I then create more safe-spaces for me on other websites?

I don't think Reddit should count. Saying "How did Reddit get radicalized?" is like saying "How did Invisionfree get radicalized?". For every subreddit you find saying one thing, you'll find one saying the exact opposite. For every /r/T_D, there's an /r/politics.

Hell, I would almost say the same thing about 4chan /b/ and /pol/ aside. The art boards are some of the best on the net imo. Don't think I've ever found a photography forum as good as their photography board is.

The thing about 4chan is, that it wasnt like that in its first year or one and a half year. It was mainly an anime imageboard and even /b/ was heavily moderated and was a "funny image board".

 

[Random Human]

Spaces where young men congregate and have no moderation inevitably end up this way. Normal people drift away or don't join in the first place due to how toxic it is, and then you're left with nothing but toxic people.

 

[cartographer]

But if you already have 1 safe space, why spread it to other sites.
If I already have a safe-space in /pol/ with people who think alike, why would I then create more safe-spaces for me on other websites?



The thing about 4chan is, that it wasnt like that in its first year or one and a half year. It was mainly an anime imageboard and even /b/ was heavily moderated and was a "funny image board".

Because bigots are spoiled brats who always need more.

 

[Laieon]

The thing about 4chan is, that it wasnt like that in its first year or one and a half year. It was mainly an anime imageboard and even /b/ was heavily moderated and was a "funny image board".

It probably didn't have the traffic in it's first year that it did now (or had a few years ago). I think the more people a place has, the more likely you'll find an echo chamber. If you have 2 people on a board and 1 thinks bread is the best food while the other thinks cheese is and then a 3rd person joins who also thinks cheese is the best food, breadguy will probably be a lot more likely to move to a different place that supports his opinion (stupid example, I know, but I'm trying my best here).

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Because people who comment on things, or want to post an opinion on things, are usually motivated to do it because they hate it. Most people who are fine with something, or even like something, are fine to simply like it without posting. This is true even on NeoGAF. Happy people don't usually post. The difference is that NeoGAF is well-moderated.

Which means the only people there talking to each other are people with a negative inflammatory slant. And by the time anybody positive wants to roll up their sleeves and defend something, they are outnumbered, and they leave. They are also more likely to give up because it's "not worth their time" and they don't want to "feed the trolls."

But then the negatives feel like they won, are empowered, and continue to be vile with a strong sense of self-affirmation.

This is my experience.

 

[IamDodongo]

I don't think Reddit should count. Saying "How did Reddit get radicalized?" is like saying "How did Invisionfree get radicalized?". For every subreddit you find saying one thing, you'll find one saying the exact opposite. For every /r/T_D, there's an /r/politics. For every /r/red_pill (or whatever it is) there's /r/TwoXChromosomes.

The user base is pretty split, but the admins do the barest of minimums to curb shitty forum behavior. It leaves large portions of the site totally unusable.

 

[Horns]

When you have idiots claiming ignorant and extreme views are simply expressing their first amendment rights and others normalize it, it happens. Add in a community that centers around annononimity and it creates the perfect place for radicalization to thrive.

 

[Angelus Errare]

But if you already have 1 safe space, why spread it to other sites.
If I already have a safe-space in /pol/ with people who think alike, why would I then create more safe-spaces for me on other websites?

Because everyone thinks they're right and have a urge/need to convince others who disagree with them.

 

[Shrike_Priest]

Group polarization pushes groups in the direction they start out in. It works through a phenomenon called "cascades", which are basically how information, knowledge and values pread throughout a group. It also works independent of which direction said group starts out in. Basically, NeoGAF now is probably more "radical" than it was a few years ago, just in a less douchy direction than 4chan.

Cass Sunstein's The Law of Group Polarization is a nice starting point, but there's tons of other work in the field.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't think Reddit should count. Saying "How did Reddit get radicalized?" is like saying "How did Invisionfree get radicalized?". For every subreddit you find saying one thing, you'll find one saying the exact opposite. For every /r/T_D, there's an /r/politics. For every /r/red_pill (or whatever it is) there's /r/TwoXChromosomes.

Hell, I would almost say the same thing about 4chan /b/ and /pol/ aside. The art boards are some of the best on the net imo. Don't think I've ever found a photography forum as good as their photography board is.

Reddit has global admins they could shut all that shit down but choose not to. That's the difference between reddit and a blog or message board service

 

[Laieon]

The user base is pretty split, but the admins do the barest of minimums to curb shitty forum behavior. It leaves large portions of the site totally unusable.

Right, but I wouldn't say that's the entire site being radicalized. That's just lazy admins. A large portion of the site may be completely unusable but I don't think they ever intended for the entire site to be usable for every single person. You didn't go to invisionfree or proboards back in the day and intend to use every single forum they offered, did you?

Grab RES, make it so you never see shit from subreddits you don't like, and you'll have a good time.

Reddit has global admins they could shut all that shit down but choose not to. That's the difference between reddit and a blog or message board service

What? Traditional forum services and blogs definitely have the power to shut down individual boards and blogs that are utilizing their services.

 

[Clefargle]

Reasonable discourse is harder and takes longer than hate filled shitposting and edgy template memes

 

[digitalrelic]

Reddit's still pretty chill overall. There's just a small subset of shitty subreddits.

 

[Cheebo]

The admin/mod staff here really deserves a lot of credit for having a zero tolerance policy for any pro-GamerGate or anti-"SJW" rants here. It really keeps things sane and avoids GAF becoming filled with insane right wing nonsense.

 

[benicillin]

Lack of moderation, demographics and people who hate things tend to be the loudest and most vocal voices which leads to reasonable people leaving the site and not engaging.

I don't think Reddit should count. Saying "How did Reddit get radicalized?" is like saying "How did Invisionfree get radicalized?". For every subreddit you find saying one thing, you'll find one saying the exact opposite. For every /r/T_D, there's an /r/politics. For every /r/red_pill (or whatever it is) there's /r/TwoXChromosomes.

Hell, I would almost say the same thing about 4chan /b/ and /pol/ aside. The art boards are some of the best on the net imo. Don't think I've ever found a photography forum as good as their photography board is.

Uh no, Reddit is the perfect example. It's a dumpster fire, dude. The site is toxic.

 

[Trojita]

Most people who are fine with something, or even like something, are fine to simply like it without posting. This is true even on NeoGAF. Happy people don't usually post.

:S

Now I'm unhappy.

 

[Laieon]

Uh no, Reddit is the perfect example. It's a dumpster fire, dude. The site is toxic.

I guess it depends on what boards you frequent. I've had a fantastic experience with it. If you're having a bad time on reddit, subscribe to better subreddits.

On my front page, for example, I currently see a discussion on Dali's "Woman with a Head of Roses", a discussion on how MPCHC is now dead and alternatives to it, mystery radio signals being detected from a red dwarf star 11 light years away, and a discussion on what happens if you ragequit Splatoon. That's without me having to go to the 2nd page. I legitimately think if you have a bad time with Reddit, you're doing something wrong. I see nothing related to the T_D, The Redpill, or any other subreddits I don't enjoy.

 

[Deepwater]

I don't think Reddit should count. Saying "How did Reddit get radicalized?" is like saying "How did Invisionfree get radicalized?". For every subreddit you find saying one thing, you'll find one saying the exact opposite. For every /r/T_D, there's an /r/politics. For every /r/red_pill (or whatever it is) there's /r/TwoXChromosomes.

Hell, I would almost say the same thing about 4chan /b/ and /pol/ aside. The art boards are some of the best on the net imo. Don't think I've ever found a photography forum as good as their photography board is.

I get what you're saying but comparing reddit to invisionfree is a bad analogy

 

[Finale Fireworker]

:S

Now I'm unhappy.

I'm unhappy you're unhappy.

THIS IS HOW IT STARTS.

 

[Paganmoon]

could it also be due to "astroturfing", didn't Samantha Bee do a segment on paid/"professional" trolls. If you get enough of them, you can gradually shift discussion, and get bigots to "out" themselves, and if they're enough people "outing" themselves, well they can suddenly be the majority, or a vocal minority at least.

Will eventually lead to the others to leave the platform, giving these "radicals" free reign of the site? I dunno, pure speculation of course.

 

[cartographer]

Reddit's still pretty chill overall. There's just a small subset of shitty subreddits.

In my experience it still often seeps in to otherwise unrelated subreddits, which is why I no longer use the site unless there's no viable alternative.

The kicker for me was a weird racist rant on I think Buildapcsales or something similar. I don't have time for that.

 

[AuthenticM]

Probably lack of stern moderation, which GAF (thankfully) does not lack.

 

[The Albatross]

I think you're wrong about your initial impression of those sites. They've always been radical, it's just that what's radical today is the anti-"globalist" right, not the anti-"globalist" left on sites like those.

Sites like ebaumsworld and 4chan were always extreme on certain issues/positions, but there's a zeitgeist affect here. The people that go to those sites have progressively become more counter-culture or radical anti-politically-correct. They've always been politically incorrect to a fault... Users at ebaumsworld would regularly use racial slurs and peddle conspiracy theories, stereotypes of women and racial minorities always flourished there and on 4chan... Always, going back 10, 15 years. They attracted people who thought that they were being repressed by political correctness elsewhere. That population has now found a home with the Trump/Alt-right/nationalist movement, which it always flirted with (at least on the nationalism side). The sites were always troll sites, but now their targets of trolling are who they perceive to be in power or representative of the mainstream "SJWs" or the moderate, mainsteam left/center.

Despite Trump being president, there is still a feeling that what Trump represents -- for them -- is "the opposition," or their troll overlord. That the world is controlled by the media, "globalists," Jews, and other conspiracy-esque puppet masters, and that Trump and the alt-Right are a rejection of this. But, this isn't any different than it was on those sorts of sites 8+ years ago, where instead of Obama or Clinton being representative of the globalist illuminati, it was George W. Bush, and so Obama was seen as "the opposition." Conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones have always been popular on those sites, and Jones used to be popular among people who would have seen Republicans or George W. Bush as their chief antagonist, but with 8 years of Obama and 4 years of a Democratic congress, that shifted.

All this is to say, the sites have always been radical, always, but the radical groups has shifted less from the conspiratorial-left as it was 10 years ago, and more to the conspiratorial-right as it is today. Meanwhile, other people have matured and grown up. I used to go to those sites, Gen[M]ay, and all of the others, and sort of be part of those conspiratorial-left groups, and then I realized like... These guys are all fucking idiots.

 

[bengraven]

Reddit's still pretty chill overall. There's just a small subset of shitty subreddits.

I guess it depends on what boards you frequent. I've had a fantastic experience with it. If you're having a bad time on reddit, subscribe to better subreddits.

That hasn't been my experience the last few months at all. In fact I meant to make a thread about it here on NeoGAF but I know how most people seem to hate Reddit here.

The reality is that the right wing mine said seems to be getting stronger on Reddit or at least just a lot more vocalized and a lot more organized. You can see political posts even in places like r/loseit or r/humanporn - places that a year ago used to be encouraging and the very definition of excepting people for who they are without judgment of their culture looks or religion.

In my experience it still often seeps in to otherwise unrelated subreddits, which is why I no longer use the site unless there's no viable alternative.

The kicker for me was a weird racist rant on I think Buildapcsales or something similar. I don't have time for that.

Yep - and those rants get upvotes and people calling him/her a dick or off topic get downvotes. It's very OK to be racist and Reddit right now.

 

[Deepwater]

I think you're wrong about your initial impression of those sites. They've always been radical, it's just that what's radical today is the anti-"globalist" right, not the anti-"globalist" left.

Sites like ebaumsworld and 4chan were always extreme on certain issues, but there's a zeitgeist affect here. The people that go to those sites have progressively become more counter-culture or radical anti-politically-correct. They've always been politically incorrect to a fault... Users at ebaumsworld would regularly use racial slurs and peddle conspiracy theories, stereotypes of women and racial minorities always flourished there and on 4chan. They attracted people who thought that they were being repressed by political correctness elsewhere. That population has now found a home with the Trump/Alt-right/nationalist movement, which it always flirted with (at least on the nationalism side).

Despite Trump being president, there is still a feeling that what Trump represents -- for them -- is "the opposition." That the world is controlled by the media, "globalists," Jews, and other conspiracy-esque puppet masters, and that Trump and the alt-Right are a rejection of this. But, this isn't any different than it was on those sorts of sites 8+ years ago, where instead of Obama or Clinton being representative of the globalist illuminati, it was George W. Bush, and so Obama was seen as "the opposition." Conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones have always been popular on those sites, and Jones used to be popular among people who would have seen Republicans or George W. Bush as their chief antagonist, but with 8 years of Obama and 4 years of a Democratic congress, that shifted.

All this is to say, the sites have always been radical, always, but the radical groups has shifted less from the conspiratorial-left as it was 10 years ago, and more to the conspiratorial-right as it is today. Meanwhile, other people have matured and grown up. I used to go to those sites, Gen[M]ay, and all of the others, and sort of be part of those conspiratorial-left groups, and then I realized like... These guys are all fucking idiots.

4chan is such a microcosm of this internet radicalization and it's hard in particular to point where exactly it went wrong because all of the users are anonymous. The site got big and suddenly people were starting to miss that people were (mostly) joking for the sake of being edgy, and actually thought it was cool to seriously be a dipshit who couldn't argue. And you'll see in a lot of the "hacktivist" Anonymous groups that spanwed from Chanology were left-leaning libertarian in nature. But unfortunately the site just stared into the Abyss and eventually the Abyss stared back and we have what we have now.

Personally, you won't ever "get" it unless you were there when it was young and fresh because the culture was just something that you had to be there for. I remember reading a couple articles about 4chan and the alt right in the last year or so and they all missed the mark because it was clear the authors had no knowledge of 4chan pre /pol/ (or pre /r9k or /n/, /news/).

 

[Akronis]

I guess it depends on what boards you frequent. I've had a fantastic experience with it. If you're having a bad time on reddit, subscribe to better subreddits.

On my front page, for example, I currently see a discussion on Dali's "Woman with a Head of Roses", a discussion on how MPCHC is now dead and alternatives to it, mystery radio signals being detected from a red dwarf star 11 light years away, and a discussion on what happens if you ragequit Splatoon. That's without me having to go to the 2nd page. I legitimately think if you have a bad time with Reddit, you're doing something wrong. I see nothing related to the T_D, The Redpill, or any other subreddits I don't enjoy.

User overlap between these shitty subreddits mean you have people that frequenct T_D or other toxic subreddits parroting bullshit in the comments. I'm on gaming subreddits only and I STILL see this shit. It's an issue with all of Reddit.

 

[HellforLeather]

Are they really radicalized? Or are they just filled with trolls?

 

[Akronis]

Are they really radicalized? Or are they just filled with trolls?

Ironic racism and ironic sexism is still racism and sexism.

 

[ApharmdX]

The right is better at memes.

I don't know about this. The right is easily and effectively mocked, particularly the thin-skinned orange in the Oval Office. And the alt-right cannot laugh at themselves at all, it's all purity tests with them, and those are deadly serious... I will say that the left has lost a lot of its sense of humor in the last few years, though. We could stand to laugh more.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Personally, you won't ever "get" it unless you were there when it was young and fresh because the culture was just something that you had to be there for. I remember reading a couple articles about 4chan and the alt right in the last year or so and they all missed the mark because it was clear the authors had no knowledge of 4chan pre /pol/ (or pre /r9k or /n/, /news/).

Where could you go to learn this kind of stuff? I find it historically valuable.

I was on 4chan in the mid 2000s and left for greener pastures. When I started popping back in periodically around 2012, things were already really, really bad.

I remember /b/ being a funny board. It still was when I left. It used to be the kind of place I associated with 14 year olds. Not so much now.

What's the chronology?

 

[Valhelm]

Reddit was always reactionary, it just shifted from a subtler bigotry to a more general conservatism.

Youtube and 4chan host a lot of people from the extreme right because they're easy outlets for bored, lonely teenagers to spread hatred for hours a day.

 

[benicillin]

Where could you go to learn this kind of stuff? I find it historically valuable.

I was on 4chan in the mid 2000s and left for greener pastures. When I started popping back in periodically around 2012, things were already really, really bad.

I remember /b/ being a funny board. It still was when I left. It used to be the kind of place I associated with 14 year olds. Not so much now.

What's the chronology?

From what I remember personally you came back around the time when it started to get really bad. I used to frequent /v/ but around 2011 was when /pol/ was created as a containment board (it didn't work) and the site started to get more and radicalized (even more than when /new/ was acknowledged to basically just be a bunch of racists) and dangerous. 2012 was when I stopped visiting /v/ because Anita's Kickstarter made the site unusable.

 

[SecretMoblin]

Right wing reactionaries are loud, obnoxious and love the sound of their own voice so get enough of them in one place and everyone else leaves because it's not worth the time to argue with them because it's a fruitless endeavour

Because bigots are spoiled brats who always need more.

Because everyone thinks they're right and have a urge/need to convince others who disagree with them.

Youtube and 4chan host a lot of people from the extreme right because they're easy outlets for bored, lonely teenagers to spread hatred for hours a day.

idek

 

[Deepwater]

Where could you go to learn this kind of stuff? I find it historically valuable.

I was on 4chan in the mid 2000s and left for greener pastures. When I started popping back in periodically around 2012, things were already really, really bad.

I remember /b/ being a funny board. It still was when I left. It used to be the kind of place I associated with 14 year olds. Not so much now.

What's the chronology?

your best bet I think is finding chan archives that still have images saved and look for screenshot threads. But otherwise I don't think there is a good reliable source of what the site was like in a properly documented fashion. moot did a couple of interviews and even a Ted Talk I think about 4chan and the value of online anonymity, but he doesn't do much press and stays very lowkey. Hopefully in the future someone will be able to do a thorough profile piece on him and that would serve as the best possible route for an inside look at what the site was like (while he was there)

 

[excelsiorlef]

idek

That's actually the answer

 

[Clefargle]

Step 1: online anonymity
Step 2: add trolls and memes
Step 3: site becomes about giant troll in-jokes
Step 4: add new idiots that don't think it's a joke
Step 5: push out moderates or older members
Step 6: ????????
Step 7: trump

 

[Deepwater]

Step 1: online anonymity
Step 2: add trolls and memes
Step 3: site becomes about giant troll in-jokes
Step 4: add new idiots that don't think it's a joke
Step 5: push out moderates or older members
Step 6: ????????
Step 7: trump

honestly the ?????? is so appropriate cause it was so surreal seeing MGTOW and MRA actually being taken seriously on /r9k/ at the time

 

[King Tubby]

When there's no moderation or moderation doesn't care, shitheads congregate and push out everyone who doesn't want to deal with their bullshit.

 

[jstripes]

They'll loudly bitch and whine about "free speech" until they control the platform.

Ignoring that and having healthy moderation is the only way to avoid it.

 

[Mango The Magician]

It's either:

A. Lacking the needed moderation to prevent a site from becoming radicalized.

or

B. Having Moderators that are already radicalized and push said radicalization.


Not having the foresight or self-awareness to acknowledge that you're becoming radicalized also plays a huge role.

 

[AYF 001]

I feel like part of it might be that proving conformity becomes a game of one-up-manship. New members see the behavior of the current group, and they think "if having xyz opinion means you'll be included, having xyz+1 means they'll accept me in a heartbeat!" Then xyz+1 becomes more widespread, and when the next iterations of new members arrive, the same behavior will keep repeating until anything less than blind zeal is unacceptable.

 

[Buckle]

Piss poor moderation is a big part of it. Some are so blindly concerned about people being able to express themselves, no matter how toxic that its pretty easy for things to grow out of control and become a hive of festering bullshit.

 

[HStallion]

The right is better at memes.

They fucking suck at humor though.

 

[kess]

Where could you go to learn this kind of stuff? I find it historically valuable.

I was on 4chan in the mid 2000s and left for greener pastures. When I started popping back in periodically around 2012, things were already really, really bad.

I always associated 4chan as something that came out of middle class white culture, the only people who would accept what it has turned into.

A lot of the worst stuff today reflects politics as what you might have found on LGF or Ace of Spades message boards 15 years ago, just the roles and names have changed. The difference is the internet and political environment allowed radicals and activists to make common cause globally.