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How many TeraFlops will the Ps5 Pro, Xbox series X / S Pro have?

How many TeraFlops ?

  • 20TF

    Votes: 92 45.5%
  • 16TF

    Votes: 33 16.3%
  • That's some Bull...

    Votes: 77 38.1%

  • Total voters
    202
7700 XT will be Navi 33 from what I understand.

It is? Okay, so that would make it based on a 4096 shader core design (if Navi 31 being 12,288 shader cores is right...and it might still be 15,360 for all we know). That's not too much more than what the Series X has already (3,384), but it'd be less than what a PS5 Pro with doubled the shaders would be (4,608), and I think Sony's strategy would still rely on doing the butterfly type of thing.

So either the new rumors of Navi 31 being 12,288 shader cores are BS, or the idea each one down the ladder just removes a third of the shader cores and Infinity Cache are wrong, or at least the PS5 Pro would be based on something aside the 7700 XT, like maybe a super cut-down 7800 XT?

Because the other RDNA3 rumors are Navi 31 and 32 are MCD, but Navi 33 is monolithic. If Navi 33 is 7700 XT and the new shader count rumors aren't wrong, then how could Sony do the butterfly approach with less shaders? So something's off there.

Then again I don't think Pro models are really coming this time around. But if that gets proven wrong so be it.

How do you know? You think they're going to do slim or pro versions using 7nm?

Also, didn't Sony build/started building a new factory to make these not long ago? I'm not sure if it's done or not. That also should help.

From what some other people've said seems like that new factory is for older node process chips, not anything 7nm or newer. It was someone on this forum who said it in response to a comment a long time back.

Would have to look more into it.

given the TDP size this could well fit into 20TF range. Anything above will break the TDP limit.

Yeah; 20 - 25 TF would be the most realistic. But the systems would really need some dedicated hardware for ML and RT, and maybe faster CPUs.

...that's if any Pro models are coming at all.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
Didn't the pro consoles come out last time to prevent PC players from leaving? They don't care about that now it seems. Why not just release PS6 and the next Xbox in 2025?
 
PS5 Pro will be a butterfly GPU design of the PS5, so that will be around the 20-22 tflops depending on frequency.

Xbox Series X Pro, who knows. Microsoft want the performance crown so they will have a couple more tflops than whatever the PS5 Pro comes in at.

There won't be a series S Pro as that will be the base Series X by default.
 
It is? Okay, so that would make it based on a 4096 shader core design (if Navi 31 being 12,288 shader cores is right...and it might still be 15,360 for all we know). That's not too much more than what the Series X has already (3,384), but it'd be less than what a PS5 Pro with doubled the shaders would be (4,608), and I think Sony's strategy would still rely on doing the butterfly type of thing.

So either the new rumors of Navi 31 being 12,288 shader cores are BS, or the idea each one down the ladder just removes a third of the shader cores and Infinity Cache are wrong, or at least the PS5 Pro would be based on something aside the 7700 XT, like maybe a super cut-down 7800 XT?

Because the other RDNA3 rumors are Navi 31 and 32 are MCD, but Navi 33 is monolithic. If Navi 33 is 7700 XT and the new shader count rumors aren't wrong, then how could Sony do the butterfly approach with less shaders? So something's off there.

Then again I don't think Pro models are really coming this time around. But if that gets proven wrong so be it.

I thought for the longest time that the 7700 XT would be Navi 33, however after a quick google search and looking at some tech tubers, it seems you are likely right. Apologies.

I think at the very least Sony will target 2x in rasterisation performance, RGT said they were targeting 2.5x in ray-tracing performance. This is consistent with with has been leaked for RDNA 3 in terms of RT gains over RDNA 2. He also said Sony were heavily working on an upsampling technology for the PS5, and this would not be FSR. Of course this is just in the realm of leaks and speculation, we don't even know if these consoles exist. But again, I would expect the Pro model to have some sort of variant of Navi 33 which as you stated has a monolithic design.

Also what do you mean by butterfly design?
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
I might get the PS5 Pro. Definitely not getting an Xbox Series X pro. Honestly depends on how much it is. If there's a GPU at a comparable price (bwahahaha yea right) then I'll get that instead.

Not gonna lie though....this some bullshit.
 
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Dream-Knife

Member
The PS4 Pro was designed primarily to meet the demands of the market for 4K gaming and TV's.
They said something about noticing people leaving a console gen half way through.

Oh well, assuming our economy doesn't crash (optimistic point in now stagflation), 8k tvs will be much more common in a year or two.
 

Putonahappyface

Gold Member
Ps5 pro 19TF / Series X pro 30TF.
 
I thought for the longest time that the 7700 XT would be Navi 33, however after a quick google search and looking at some tech tubers, it seems you are likely right. Apologies.

I think at the very least Sony will target 2x in rasterisation performance, RGT said they were targeting 2.5x in ray-tracing performance. This is consistent with with has been leaked for RDNA 3 in terms of RT gains over RDNA 2. He also said Sony were heavily working on an upsampling technology for the PS5, and this would not be FSR. Of course this is just in the realm of leaks and speculation, we don't even know if these consoles exist. But again, I would expect the Pro model to have some sort of variant of Navi 33 which as you stated has a monolithic design.

Also what do you mean by butterfly design?

Well, with the PS4 Pro Sony basically doubled the CU count of the base PS4 from 18 to 36. That's what butterfly design is in reference to. With PS5 they could've either doubled the CU count again (unlikely), tripled the PS4 CU count (so instead of 36, it'd of been 48), or simply left the CU count the same. If you mirror the GPU profile in things like the CU counts, that's where the butterfly design comes in.

The reason Sony took that approach was for BC so when you're playing say PS4 games on PS5, half the GPU is disabled so that only 18 of the 36 CUs are active, half of the ROPs are active etc. Mark Cerny gave a hypothetical example of another butterfly design for PS5 with 48 CUs (basically 3x 18 CU "slices" but in RDNA2 terminology 3 Shader Arrays with 2 Shader Engines each) but they went against that design because faster clocks meant more for their design than having a wider GPU.

So about the 7700 XT stuff, I'm just going to guess that's Navi 32 because honestly the rumors and leaks have been kind of confusing. Even if it is Navi 32 we don't know if that's 8,192 shader cores or 10,240 shader cores. Part of the reason in light of this TCL stuff (and they may not know jack shit about midg-en systems TBH) I think the RDNA2 designs might be 10,240 for Navi 32 is because if a full-fat Navi 32 is too much in wafer cost and potential TDP for a mid-gen console, and a design like PS5 Pro is based on that (in the 7700 XT), it's much easier for Sony to butterfly the PS5's design by just using one of the two MCDs, cutting shader core count down from 10,240 to 5,120, then disabling some of the shader cores to get to 4,608 which would double the PS5's 2,304 shader cores.

If Navi 32 is 8,192 shader cores then Sony would be forced to use the full design and either disable a ton of shader cores and run the clock at PS5 speed (which might be conservative for an RDNA3 GPU), or use all the shader cores and run the GPU clock lower than PS5's, to stay in a console-friendly TDP. Either way it's a lot of money being wasted but that'd be the case if the top-end is only 12,288 shader cores and each one scales down by one third.
 

Mahavastu

Member
I would assume the PS5 Pro will be like the PS4 pro, doubling the CUs and a little bumb in frequency.
The PS5 has 10.28TF, so 20.5TF by hardware and then a bit more because of higher frequency, maybe about 25?

I would also assume the CUs will get much better Ray Tracing (I heard rumours that RDNA3 will have it) and some other minor improvements from RDNA3 to boost performance more then the TFlops will suggests.
Not sure if they will include hardware to make FSRx faster, the DF video about FSR2 said that it is quite expensive.
 

Belthazar

Member
The only thing that makes me excited about a PS5 Pro is that it's very likely to be released alongside a PS5 Slim, which I'm way more interested in. The consoles are good enough and will be for the remainder of the generation, this is not a PS4/X1 situation, where the hardware was already old by the time it released.
 
RDNA3 consumer chips are coming out this year.
MSRPs expected to be similar to RDNA2.
The comparable 7700XT should be in the region of 40TFLOPs.
If they cut the 7700XT chip down to say 34TFLOPs it could be in a PS5Pro.
The chips are to big, expensive and power hungry
Have you seen the rumor wattage? 450, 600

That's GPU only needing 4 slot cooling
You want a PS5 that is even 50% bigger than the already comically huge PS5 for $1000?

Otherwise it's not possible. And even in that care there is no selling point. 4k 120hz already exists for non intensive games. 8k TVs need a decade more to make it in every home. More than 120hz won't come to the TV space any time soon.


There is no reasonable tech available for Pro models.
It's a matter of fact.
 

Haggard

Member
How do you know?
because those big contract manufacturers have been open about not being able to provide enough chips until at least 2024 and we even got the 5nm customer charts for TSMC not too long ago .....
Also, didn't Sony build/started building a new factory to make these not long ago? I'm not sure if it's done or not. That also should help.
Sony can`t do anything here. They can`t produce the chips.
You can have 101 assembly lines, but without the raw components that doesn`t help.
 
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25-40Tflop range seems the most likely; anything less is not a "pro" model and anything more would likely either be too late or too expensive, also if they go too high it makes the jump to the next generation even less significant.
 

Popup

Member
I feel like the pro only really came about due to the then increased 4K TV popularity and affordability. Will pro models become a norm now? Maybe, if enough consumers are willing to upgrade. I think most others have already said it, that supply problems may well prevent it this gen anyway.
 
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Kerotan

Member
I feel like Sony will target 2025. By then anyone who really wanted a post could have bought it and early ps5 adopter's or just new buyer's will be interested in the Pro. Will also help extend the generation until 2030.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
The chips are to big, expensive and power hungry
Have you seen the rumor wattage? 450, 600

That's GPU only needing 4 slot cooling
You want a PS5 that is even 50% bigger than the already comically huge PS5 for $1000?

Otherwise it's not possible. And even in that care there is no selling point. 4k 120hz already exists for non intensive games. 8k TVs need a decade more to make it in every home. More than 120hz won't come to the TV space any time soon.


There is no reasonable tech available for Pro models.
It's a matter of fact.

Matter of fact?
You are acting like Sony just got a RX6700XT and slapped it in the PS5.
They are using the architecture they will get a chip that they will obviously customize.
RDNA3 exists so the technology exists if you mean there is no consumer chip they could just dump in a PS5Pro then sure.
But thats not how consoles are made.
Good chance AMD have a Navi3x that Sony have comished it doesnt have to be based directly on a specific consumer chip.

What consumer RDNA2 chip is in the PS5?
What consumer RDNA2 chip is in the XSX?
Are they both 6700XTs?
 

Allandor

Member
I don't think this will be a thing this generation.
We will still get cross-gen titles, engines that use the new hardware-features are not even out and we are talking about new consoles.

I guess Sony and MS are both investigating the chance to bring out a "Pro" console, but nothing more.
Maybe (just maybe) Sony plans to bring out a PS5 console with higher HDMI bandwidth so they are capable to output a 8k120hz signal, but that is more or less all I see in the near future. Any plan that might go into the direction of a refresh-generation has been brought down by the chip-production crisis.

We now in a time where a rtx 3050 costs about 400€/$. It will be more interesting to see if Sony/MS can somehow make consoles cheaper but thx to the inflation and the always higher prices for chips I guess they might even increase prices in the near future to compensate for that. Sure they have some long-running contracts for their supply, but at some point those contracts get renewed and the parts are not really getting cheaper.
 
Matter of fact?
You are acting like Sony just got a RX6700XT and slapped it in the PS5.
They are using the architecture they will get a chip that they will obviously customize.
RDNA3 exists so the technology exists if you mean there is no consumer chip they could just dump in a PS5Pro then sure.
But thats not how consoles are made.
Good chance AMD have a Navi3x that Sony have comished it doesnt have to be based directly on a specific consumer chip.

What consumer RDNA2 chip is in the PS5?
What consumer RDNA2 chip is in the XSX?
Are they both 6700XTs?
A PS5 Pro or Series X 2 with any meaningful upgrade in power won't happen in the next 3 years for a normal price. That's the matter of fact.
I gladly give everyone in this topic $1k if it does.

Yes the PS5 die has 150mm2 of GPU die space.
Your 7700xt will be 350mm2+ and unlike RDNA3, they can't run that at 3 GHz in a console design. Just look how the PS5 ended up being an abomination just to hit 2.2 as a boost clock.


TFLOPS is still compute units * stream processors * 2 * clock speed. A crappy 15TF PS5 Pro could be done, but just do the math for 20 or even 30TF.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
A PS5 Pro or Series X 2 with any meaningful upgrade in power won't happen in the next 3 years for a normal price. That's the matter of fact.
I gladly give everyone in this topic $1k if it does.

Yes the PS5 die has 150mm2 of GPU die space.
Your 7700xt will be 350mm2+ and unlike RDNA3, they can't run that at 3 GHz in a console design. Just look how the PS5 ended up being an abomination just to hit 2.2 as a boost clock.


TFLOPS is still compute units * stream processors * 2 * clock speed. A crappy 15TF PS5 Pro could be done, but just do the math for 20 or even 30TF.

Im reporting this post to the moderators to make it an official bet.
Ill bookmark it in case we have a moderation change in the next 3 years.
Might as well also put your account on the line.
 

Azurro

Member
I feel like Sony will target 2025. By then anyone who really wanted a post could have bought it and early ps5 adopter's or just new buyer's will be interested in the Pro. Will also help extend the generation until 2030.

2025 is way, WAY too late. I bought a PS5 on launch day, I'd have 0 problems spending another 500 or 600 euros buying a Pro version next year and my segment of the market is significant.

As an aside, I don't understand why people get offended by the existence of Pro consoles.
 

Bo_Hazem

Gold Dealer
PS5 Pro would be probably around 20.5-23TF depending on the clockspeed profiles, a butterfly/fusion style like M1, M1 Max, M1 Ultra idea.

Xbox? No idea as they they have unpredictable behavior in that regard.
 
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hinch7

Member
This is a bit silly.. TCL wouldn't have privy information as to what Sony/MS are doing for their consoles.

My guess a PS5 Pro will launch in 2025. TSMC will be on 2N by then, and Sony could use 3Ne chips for the Pro; or even look to Samsung for their 2N. At the moment 5nm chips are expensive and won't offer enough of a jump in efficiency to justify a Pro model. Despite a new architecture releasing from AMD soon with RDNA 3.
 

DJ12

Member
Lot of crazy talk here.

Double or less of what each console has already.

This is a bit silly.. TCL wouldn't have privy information as to what Sony/MS are doing for their consoles.

My guess a PS5 Pro will launch in 2025. TSMC will be on 2N by then, and Sony could use 3Ne chips for the Pro; or even look to Samsung for their 2N. At the moment 5nm chips are expensive and won't offer enough of a jump in efficiency to justify a Pro model. Despite a new architecture releasing from AMD soon with RDNA 3.
I think I read in a thread here that TCL and Sony are partnering on a Japanese fab plant, maybe they are privy to this information certainly on Sonys side at least.
 
How a TV brand will have info that AMD or the console manufacturers hasn't released yet?
Because they need them to make TV's that suits consoles need.
It's not going to be 16-20 TFLOP range. If that is the case, it's going to be dead on arrival. Even if Sony, and MS begged AMD to have TFLOP in that range, they would not be able to due to the nature of RDNA 3 microarchitecture with MCM design.

Expect a reasonable 60 TFLOP-100 TFLOP range. Most likely at the lower to mid-range between 60 and 100 tflop
Im a realistic person, add that with some math = 20-25TF range.
(Don't ask me about the Math, there is none)
No I am talking about RDNA 3. RDNA 3 in my opinion is basically playing catch up to 3080 series with more efficiencies and refinements. Its not like its going to be released this year, we are talking Holiday 2023 at the earliest (very unlikely) or Holiday 2024. There might some more creative and savvy customizations (similar to SSD) and implementation of NPU's and controller/chips that offset unnecessary redundant tasks from I/O, CPU, GPU which has the potential to make it above 3090 level. Also dont forget that Zen 4 is hitting 5Ghz, and RDNA 3 is rumored to be hitting close to 3 Ghz (just like i predicted) which is amazing.

What I am trying to say is, the Pro consoles are NOT going to be the pro console like ps4pro-which to me- in terms of specs are laughable. Its more like Xbox One (1.3 TFLOP) to Xbox One X (6 TFLOP) type of change (although the series S throws a wrench)
I understand where your coming from, i do think that we will get 3 console refresh (normal, pro, pro+), if it's the case your logic about 60TF+ might happen on the Pro+, as of now there is no way they gonna release a 30TF+ console at this time, not happening.
That's assuming any of this is true though; I think that TCL dude was just guessing that midgen refreshes would arrive by then following the pattern so far. But do we really need them this gen? Also these systems would be using 6nm & 5nm, the latter being more expensive. There's a good chance the Pro systems would be at least $100 more than $499, partly because I don't think the base systems would be at enough volume to cut the prices yet.
I agree, i think current prices will still stand in the future, they will add a 100$/150$ for the pro.
 

AllBizness

Banned
I think that Sony can get a way with a much simpler upgrade. They could simply start binning the top performing PS5 chips once they move to a new manufacture process and charge a little extra for that. This would allow them to charge a more and make some extra profit while at the same time producing as many units as possible.

The PS4 Pro wouldn't have made sense if they were having a hard time keeping regular PS4 on shelves. The Xbox One X was a better hardware than the PS4 Pro and it did jack shit for MS last gen.
PS4 Pro only released for the PSVR, PS5 Pro will release the same year as PSVR2 because that is the main reason for an upgraded PS5. Microsoft was a year late because they never intended to release an upgraded Xbox One and only did so to copy Sony, they had to compete, Xbox One was already weaker then base PS4.
 

Swift_Star

Member
2025 is way, WAY too late. I bought a PS5 on launch day, I'd have 0 problems spending another 500 or 600 euros buying a Pro version next year and my segment of the market is significant.

As an aside, I don't understand why people get offended by the existence of Pro consoles.
nobody is offended, it just makes no sense at all currently. They can barely produce standard consoles as it is.
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best Kazekage1981 Kazekage1981
No existing hardware can run new Unreal Engine games at 4K 60fps.

Xbox Series X (12 TFLOPS RDNA2) run new Matrix UE5 demo at 30fps in 1440p.
For perfect 4K 60fps you will need around 30 TFLOPS of RDNA2, as of 8k they will render at 1800-2160p (4k) and upscale to 4320p(8k) with FSR 2.X, still they need to at least double the performance of the consoles, preferably triple with even more RT perf than that. It shouldn't be a problem on 5nm(if it is 2024 maybe 3nm?), The CPU probably remains the same, they will have enough die space to at least double everything else and maybe push higher clocks.
 

Kerotan

Member
2025 is way, WAY too late. I bought a PS5 on launch day, I'd have 0 problems spending another 500 or 600 euros buying a Pro version next year and my segment of the market is significant.

As an aside, I don't understand why people get offended by the existence of Pro consoles.
It's only 3 year's. There's no need for a pro any sooner.
 
I still remember PS5 14TF claims, yet we got 10TF and that's only because Cerny was a genius (he used smarthshift technology that could power extremely high GPU frequency on limited TDP budget), so now I'm tempering my expectations.

PS5Pro will probably double PS5 GPU cores (sony did this already with PS4Pro), so I'm expecting 4608 cores like in 6800XT (20TF). This GPU should run most games at 4K 60fps (instead of 1440/1600p like on standard PS5), and then they can use FSR2.0 upscaling to reach 8K output resolution. Something like 6800XT in a console will be still a huge achievement, because this thing can draw up to 300W, and we know consoles are build with limited power budget.
 
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In my opinion once Microsoft announced series s that told us they're not planning on releasing mid Gen refresh consoles. We also never got official cut on one x and pro consoles so I doubt we'll get midgen refreshes.

Personally I think we will get refreshes, but in the form of slimmer models and maybe models to expand the product family to a wider base (not a smaller one). So, the streaming box from Microsoft, and a portable (hybrid?) from Sony.

Which would align with their big objectives; GamePass saturation for Microsoft, strengthening reach in Asia for Sony.

TF will be yet another buzzword that will fade into obscurity, just like bits before it.
The reason is simple, TF is not an objective metric, it can mean different things depending on the architecture.

Yeah I don't know why TF are suddenly so important again. It'll mean something when mesh shading becomes prevalent but even then you still want a good balance in your GPU design.

Pixel fillrate, texture fillrate, anything related to cache design (Infinity Cache, cache scrubbers, L0 and L1 $ sizes etc.), dedicated logic for resolution upscaling and machine learning (you can technically devote these tasks to pure compute but it'll use a lot more in resources and consume more power), etc.

You can have a 100 TF GPU but if games aren't reliant much on mesh shading and your pixel fillrate is 50 Gpixels/sec then your GPU is objectively trash at gaming.
 
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