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How much would a 2D "true 60FPS" 1080P fighting game cost?

Dr. Kaos

Banned
When I say 60FPS, I mean 60 different sprite animations used in one second. Guilty Gear, for instance, refreshes at 60FPS but each character frame gets repeated 4 times, so it's really a 15FPS, which is why it feels more "slidy"or floaty as resolutions climb.

The solution would be to "draw" 4 times as many frames of animation for each character (4 x 15 = 60FPS) since most screens top out at 60FPS. Of course, this means paying for quadruple the animation hours.

How much would this increase the total cost of the final game? I don't know the proportion of the total cost animation is, but I imagine it is significant.

I'm wondering why we haven't seen this yet. How many FPS were 3S and Garou?
 

KiraXD

Member
2D 60FPS... is a dream... and although many new techniques are out there for 2D... id like to see a true 60 frames of hand drawn animation per second fighter... but that would be god tier costly methinks.
 

Seiniyta

Member
The cost would be astronomical/time consuming. What I could see happening is develop it as a 3D fighter but give the illusion of it being 2D.
 

EVIL

Member
You haven't seen his since its far cheaper to go the 3d route and the hand drawn 2d look doesn't add as much.
 
"I don't know the proportion of the total cost animation is, but I imagine it is significant."

"I'm wondering why we haven't seen this yet."


Really.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
Well yeah the issue with this is theres way better uses of that funding money -in the case a studio had the money spare to spend on it-

I'm not sure anyone here can answer the actual amount though.
 

Kyuur

Member
Hundreds of millions of dollars, if you're not outsourcing to barely paid/slave labor at least.

You really don't need that many frames to have good looking animation though. It would probably look weird to most people given how used we are to our eyes doing the interpolation themselves.
 

Skilletor

Member
How many characters? Are we talking a Street fighter game or divekick? How many backgrounds?

What's the baseline we're talking. I mean, I have no idea, but it'd be hard to say without quantifying some of these things.
 

Saikyo

Member
Just because the game does have animations with less than 10 frames it "still" true 60 fps, the thread started already wrong...
 

KiraXD

Member
Hundreds of millions of dollars, if you're not outsourcing to barely paid/slave labor at least.

You really don't need that many frames to have good looking animation though. It would probably look weird to most people given how used we are to our eyes doing the interpolation themselves.

true... its all about that movement.





 
Is this a joke thread OP?

EDIT: Oh you mean the actual animation on the characters themselves. Dunno if that could really work to be honest.

Actually

I don't know what you mean still.
 

Dr. Kaos

Banned
"I don't know the proportion of the total cost animation is, but I imagine it is significant."

"I'm wondering why we haven't seen this yet."
Really.

Lol. Well, maybe I should have inverted the order of the statements. I wondered, then I postulated the cost hypothesis.
 

Auctopus

Member
It would be a race between how quickly the studio went bankrupt and how long it would take before the animators wanted to kills themselves.
 

Dr. Kaos

Banned
I wonder what is the maximum that we have ?

Does Skullgirls runs at 24 ?

I want to know too.

How many characters? Are we talking a Street fighter game or divekick? How many backgrounds?

What's the baseline we're talking. I mean, I have no idea, but it'd be hard to say without quantifying some of these things.

A street fighter.

Just because the game does have animations with less than 10 frames it "still" true 60 fps, the thread started already wrong...

Feel free to rephrase my question to mean what I really mean and I'll edit the OP. Would be much appreciated!

Is this a joke thread OP?

EDIT: Oh you mean the actual animation on the characters themselves.

Yes.

That's... that's not....

Feel free to rephrase my question to mean what I really mean and I'll edit the OP. Would be much appreciated!

animation is a lot more complicated than just 'more frames = better experience'.

here is a video from the GGXrd GDC panel that shows the difference between full 60fps interpolation and what they used in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W399alF0sZ4

I saw that. The full looks much better!
 

androvsky

Member
Has there been anything (movie, game, TV show, anime) hand animated (not rotoscoped) at anywhere near 60 fps? The highest fps animated anything I can think of is the intro to Sakura Wars 3, where it looks like there's portions that were animated at 30 fps.

I'm guessing hand-animation at that frame rate would look really, really strange. You'll probably be able to see exactly where the in-betweeners lose their sanity.
 
Drawing 60 frames of 2D animation for each second of an animation is a terrible use of both time & resources.

I would love to see a 2D RPG that had the kind of budget that Square-Enix pumps into games like FF15 though.

I'm guessing hand-animation at that frame rate would look really, really strange. You'll probably be able to see exactly where the in-betweeners lose their sanity.

No kidding. Once you pass a certain threshold, more frames of animation is just more chances to mess up.
 

Dr. Kaos

Banned
Drawing 60 frames of 2D animation for each second of an animation is a terrible use of both time & resources.

You know what really is a terrible use of time and resources? The Iraq war.

Art is never a waste, my dear chap ;)


No kidding. Once you pass a certain threshold, more frames of animation is just more chances to mess up.

Hey, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm here to get educated :)

What is the top number of frames of animations in your opinion then? 24fps? 30? 15?
 

Kinthalis

Banned
I'm not seeing why this would be the case...

We're talking only about a handful of animations per character. A few attacks, some guards, some special moves, some at rest animations.

How many seconds of animation does a typical fighting character have? We can start there, but I mean, how many, MUCH more complex animated frames did traditional 2D animated films require?

How many frames do small studios in say China and India produce for animated TV shows?

Also, is there even a need, necessarily to hand draw every frame. There are goign to be a lot of frames where simple interpolation would be just as good.

Of course I don't know anything about 2D animation, so I could be way off base, but no one is producing any sort of educated numbers, just a lot of "Oh my god it would cost more than the world!!".
 

Dr. Kaos

Banned
"I saw that. The full looks much better!"


The full also just looks like a normal 3D game animation.

I seem to remember that SF4 has transitional frames of animation where the characters are grossly deformed. I believe these are computer generated.

also, i'm not sure what you mean by "normal 3D game animation". 2D is about the looks (cell-shaded or similar) and I prefer 2D with more frames of animation.
 

orioto

Good Art™
I'll say it again. Let's ay i want a SHINKIRO based 60fps versus in full hd. With all the details of its artworks ?

The only way to do that is 3D!

3D can be a better homage to 2D than 2D.
 
I'm not seeing why this would be the case...

We're talking only about a handful of animations per character. A few attacks, some guards, some special moves, some at rest animations.

How many seconds of animation does a typical fighting character have? We can start there, but I mean, how many, MUCH more complex animated frames did traditional 2D animated films require?

How many frames do small studios in say China and India produce for animated TV shows?

Also, is there even a need, necessarily to hand draw every frame. There are goign to be a lot of frames where simple interpolation would be just as good.

Of course I don't know anything about 2D animation, so I could be way off base, but no one is producing any sort of educated numbers, just a lot of "Oh my god it would cost more than the world!!"
.
Maybe you should actually listen to yourself before saying the other parts.

If it were cost effective they probably would do it, it is just that simple.
 

Ravidrath

Member
Ran this by Mike and Mariel, and they say we'd need to produce 3-4X as many animation frames as we do now. That doesn't necessarily translate to 3-4X the cost for us given how we outsource animation, but it would be a significant increase.

More importantly, though, I don't think you'd actually want this if you saw it. The whole thing would likely feel too smooth and slow, and lose all the snap and impact you want in a fighting game.

We have a lot more frames than 3S, but they look better in some regards because they're better at frame economy and snap than we are right now. The real skill is not in using a high number of frames, it's in using the right frames where they are necessary.

Standard 2D animation aims for 24 FPS and holds each image for two frames, so kinda like 12 FPS. There are rare exceptions, like The Thief and the Cobbler and Who Framed Roger Rabbit. But the former looks weirdly smooth.

We target 60 FPS and hold each image for 4 frames, so it's closer to 15 FPS.

But none of this stuff is really constant in any fighting game. 3S varies wildly. Elena's win pose holds for 1 frame, and looks out of place with the others, for example.


Double's Idle and Walk are some of the best animations in the game, and they're actually holding each for six frames, making them effectively 10 FPS. But they don't look like that at all.
 
You mean like 60 individual frames of unique animation per second? It would be extremely costly and time consuming.

That actually sounds nuts for 2D animation, hell, I don't think even most 2D film animation is individually framed at the full 24 frames, it's mostly like 12 or something, so one image per two frames, it just plays it at 24 frames per second.
 
Thinking about this more, even if a company could afford to do this and get one or a few animators not to pull their damn hair out, this seems like a programming nightmare for the actual fighting game part of this. The way the character would interact with other characters getting damaged and everything else. Fighting game characters are made to snap into certain animations for certain things during the fight and wanting this to be 60 FPS would be a pain, if the transition is supposed to be smooth as well.

I am no programmer or made a video game in my damn life but I have looked at framedata and startup and ending animations of fighting games for years and this sounds horrible trying to code for this.
 
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