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[UncleSporky]

People don't want online checks.

It seems really simple if they want to be fully pro-consumer. Every disc has a unique tag, you put the disc in, you choose to install, if you do so, it requires you to be online, it gets the tag, and that game is worthless until you choose to remove it from your profile, and Sony releases the tag back into the used market. This leaves the possibility of someone installing games, and selling them to someone who never intends to take their console online, but I don't think that's such a regular or concerning situation that it would stop it being viable.

An online check is fine when it's

a) not once every 24 hours on a system-wide level - this is only when booting games that have been fully installed

b) completely optional, since you can go back to normal disc operation with no online check

In fact the way I described it would allow for 100% normal operation the way systems currently do. If nobody does full installs, it's just disc play/trade/reselling as usual.

Because that would require an online check, like the Xbox One.

Optionally, which is the key difference. And no, it's not like the Xbox One, since it's on a per-game basis and only for those where you have done a full install for disc-less play.

 

[IonicSnake]

This to me sounds more like a way to install the game on your HDD so you don't have to use the disc rather than prevent you from selling the game. Of course they don't want you to use the same disc to install the game on multiple consoles.

But if this is how their system I would be ok with it, it doesn't prevent me from doing anything I can do today, it just allows me to install the game to my HDD without me abusing it.

Edit: However, Eurogamer say they talked to a Sony dude after the PS4 meeting where he said this patent had nothing to do with PS4.

Interestingly, I also spoke to a Sony source elsewhere at the event this evening who told me that the anti used-game patent discovered last month was actually nothing to do with PlayStation 4 at all.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...gamer-playstation-4-will-not-block-used-games

 

[Jinko]

I would be ok with this, because it doesn't stop people lending games and reselling them privately.

Of course Publishers will hate it because they get no profit from second hand games.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

The number one priority should be allowing game installs and playing a game without a disc. If they can do that and also implement a system where you can deactivate games and trade them on, that's great.

 

[Superflat]

Sounds good to me. Make it seem like an added bonus to be able to install the full game and access it without the disc, while being able to reverse it completely if you choose.

It's the choice that makes the difference.

It wouldn't be as great for publishers, but no doubt there would be more people opting to have their games operate disc-less and have less of a chance of giving them away.

 

[IHaveCandy]

I suspect Sony would be more likely to do this because they are very successful in areas that do not have ubiquitous internet availability. They'd be losing a lot more market than Microsoft by requiring an online connection at all.

 

[StuBurns]

An online check is fine when it's

a) not once every 24 hours on a system-wide level - this is only when booting games that have been fully installed

b) completely optional, since you can go back to normal disc operation with no online check

In fact the way I described it would allow for 100% normal operation the way systems currently do. If nobody does full installs, it's just disc play/trade/reselling as usual.

I don't understand how your concept would work, because if the other person's system is offline, how is Sony even going to know to check your console? His console won't have received any information that the game has been used. You being checked doesn't make any difference does it?

 

[dab0ne]

I'm all for full install of games as long as the HDD is big enough and no constant DRM. All they would need to do is make the disc necessary. You install the game and you need your disc to play it. No disc no play that way if you sell it and it's installed on your HDD it doesnt matter because you can't play it. But more importantly, you don't need an internet connection monitoring system. As far as DRM, leave it up to the publisher so I know who not to buy from.

 

[Solid warrior]

I heard that NFC security is very poor and it's easily hackable.

 

[uuaschbaer]

Alright what if that offline authentication system is in place and is tied to the machine, but you have the option to back up the authentications to one single account on PSN, or to create a back up of these authentications that is tied to your account on a USB drive. If you don't back up tied to your account on- or offline and your machine dies then it's your own fault. I'd be completely satisfied with this.

Edit: no it wouldn't work. You could still go to someone's house, install it all with your account and then leave the thing offline.

Edit2: but you can make it work if you require a check to the USB back-up daily (say), and the check will only be given for the last PS4 on which games have been authenticated. But then if the USB drive dies you're in a posish. Although it could greatly reduce the risk of losing a library.

 

[squidyj]

I can't think of a method that would avoid requiring an internet connection to some degree.

The best I can see is the first console the game is fully installed to would become the home console and tied to a key of some sort. The console checks if the key resource is held by any other console by contacting a server online and if not it acquires the key and is now allowed to play discless. Any future attempts to acquire the key from another console would fail until this console has released the key. However, with a disc in the console the disc itself would authorize the console to play the title.

As such you would only need to go online to acquire and release key. Now, any attempt to remove a key from a console would require communication between the server and that console so if you walk into gamestop with some games and your console is unplugged at home the release of the key should fail.

I don't like this system very much because I don't think it's very secure at all.

Also, it essentially sells two copies of a title at a time, you could in essence install the game to your console and then sell off the disc as such for a somewhat reduced price while maintaining ownership of the key. That's a shitty deal for publishers and devs.

The question would be how to prevent resale of just the disc while at the same time allowing borrowing or loaning of the disc and discless access

 

[IHaveCandy]

I'm all for full install of games as long as the HDD is big enough and no constant DRM. All they would need to do is make the disc necessary. You install the game and you need your disc to play it. No disc no play that way if you sell it and it's installed on your HDD it doesnt matter because you can't play it. But more importantly, you don't need and internet connection monitoring system. As far as DRM, leave it up to the publisher so I know who not to buy from.

This method would work that way by default.

 

[Guymelef]

Sony has had a patent which uses an NFC tag to determine...

They use something like this with Cross-buy games.
Can be only be redeemed once.
It's like a code inside the disc,,,

 

[partyphone]

I'm okay with a system that ties a license key to a physical disc since it allows you to play an installed game without swapping discs.

The problem is the system needs to fail open not closed. If for whatever reason the console can't communicate to an authentication server it needs to allow you to keep playing your games. If people want to abuse the system by never taking their consoles online MS and Sony should let them. That's really not a very big problem and it's a lot better than inconveniencing paying customers.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

Does the NFC data on a disc store that its been "used"? Or is it just a static code?

Unless you can edit data on the disc this wouldn't work, but if you can it'd be the better way to do it.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Does the NFC data on a disc store that its been "used"? Or is it just a static code?

Unless you can edit data on the disc this wouldn't work, but if you can it'd be the better way to do it.

The disc data isn't being altered, the NFC tag is. The system reads the NFC tag to see if the game can be played.

 

[dab0ne]

Does the NFC data on a disc store that its been "used"? Or is it just a static code?

Unless you can edit data on the disc this wouldn't work, but if you can it'd be the better way to do it.

That's exactly what I was about to ask.

 

[IHaveCandy]

I'm okay with a system that ties a license key to a physical disc since it allows you to play an installed game without swapping discs.

The problem is the system needs to fail open not closed. If for whatever reason the console can't communicate to an authentication server it needs to allow you to keep playing your games. If people want to abuse the system by never taking their consoles online MS and Sony should let them. That's really not a very big problem and it's a lot better than inconveniencing paying customers.

I believe this method would allow it to fail in an open state that is not exploitable. People are saying it can be hacked, but I'm not certain how easy that is. Potentially, anything can be hacked.

 

[dab0ne]

The disc data isn't being altered, the NFC tag is. The system reads the NFC tag to see if the game can be played.

So how does it know that you've actually uninstalled the game from your HDD without an internet connection or some form of physical record being made on the disc?

 

[H_Prestige]

Maybe I don't understand this whole NFC thing, but how would Sony know whether a game was installed or not?

 

[UncleSporky]

I don't understand how your concept would work, because if the other person's system is offline, how is Sony even going to know to check your console? His console won't have received any information that the game has been used. You being checked doesn't make any difference does it?

And presumably you could keep playing while the game sat on the shelf at Gamestop, yes.

Generally I don't think people are going to be nice enough to keep their systems offline just so they can help out an anonymous stranger who might possibly still be benefiting from having their game fully installed.

However I suppose this does mean you could lend the disc to friends and essentially have two copies at once...but if the console logs that it should capture that license the next time it goes online, they'll have to keep their systems offline indefinitely unless they want to cause trouble.

 

[Minions]

They could... you know... do it the simple way.

Require the disc in the drive. It checks that the disc is in there occasionally, otherwise running off the hard drive. It matches the ID of the disc to the ID of the disc in the bluray drive.

No disc = no play. Sell your disc then the game wont play. Simple, requires no bogus internet.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

The disc data isn't being altered, the NFC tag is. The system reads the NFC tag to see if the game can be played.

And that's something that can be done? An NFC tag can be altered? I'm not familiar with the technology at all so I'm genuinely asking.

 

[partyphone]

I believe this method would allow it to fail in an open state that is not exploitable. People are saying it can be hacked, but I'm not certain how easy that is. Potentially, anything can be hacked.

well right now NFC is wide open. To have any kind of encryption you need processing power. Which would add a lot of expense to the game packaging. And it's still something that can be hacked.

 

[Dark Octave]

The whole concept of this argument is flawed.

The idea that if people want to install games and not insert discs, that the people who buy at retail need to be screwed in the process. We already have this service, and it works perfectly well, if you want to have the game on your HDD, and not to put a disc in, you buy it from GoD and PSN.

And when that game isn't on GoD or PSN?

 

[GribbleGrunger]

It's all well and good these articles and threads popping up everywhere that suggests that Sony will probably block used games too, but no one is asking whether PSEye2 can do the same as Kinect. It seems that only the negative things are worthy of comparison.

 

[encephalon]

Am I wrong for being okay with the idea of online passes? The notion of a game requiring "permission" to play the disc content is ridiculous, but if I buy say ... Resident Evil Outbreak File 3 (are you listening Capcom!?) used, and I want to play the game online, I wouldn't mind paying 10 USD to access the servers. Seems fair to me. Servers might even be kept up longer.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

The whole concept of this argument is flawed.

The idea that if people want to install games and not insert discs, that the people who buy at retail need to be screwed in the process. We already have this service, and it works perfectly well, if you want to have the game on your HDD, and not to put a disc in, you buy it from GoD and PSN.

Retail is cheaper than digital stores.

 

[IHaveCandy]

So how does it know that you've actually uninstalled the game from your HDD without and internet connection or some for of physical record being made on the disc?

This is how it would work.

Guy installs game and tags it to his system/account

Guy gives game to someone else. He must put the game back in his system and de-authenticate it. It must be done on the same system, I suppose.

Game NFC is now set to new, and can be given to anybody.

 

[Guymelef]

Other thing.
Cross-buy NFC requires internet for the activation.

 

[IonicSnake]

Am I wrong for being okay with the idea of online passes? The notion of a game requiring "permission" to play the disc content is ridiculous, but if I buy say ... Resident Evil Outbreak File 3 (are you listening Capcom!?) used, and I want to play the game online, I wouldn't mind paying 10 USD to access the servers. Seems fair to me. Servers might even be kept up longer.

If the alternative is what Microsoft is doing I'll welcome Online Passes with open arms.

 

[StuBurns]

And when that game isn't on GoD or PSN?

They all will be. MS are going to sell you licenses for used games, so inherently they are saying the entire library will be there.

 

[IHaveCandy]

well right now NFC is wide open. To have any kind of encryption you need processing power. Which would add a lot of expense to the game packaging. And it's still something that can be hacked.

I thought that was when you make NFC as an open standard so that several different devices have a common bridge of communication. Can't Sony develop a proprietary NFC tag that does not communicate with any other hardware but their own?

 

[H_Prestige]

This is how it would work.

Guy installs game and tags it to his system/account

Guy gives game to someone else. He must put the game back in his system and de-authenticate it. It must be done on the same system, I suppose.

Game NFC is now set to new, and can be given to anybody.

So it requires internet? I don't see how this is any different than entering a code.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Other thing.
Cross-buy NFC requires internet for the activation.

Yeah, how does that work anyways? The way it is now, the game doesn't go online to tell if it is used. It knows just from the disc. Is it really using NFC or something similar? That might give more reason for this to happen with PS4.

 

[partyphone]

I thought that was when you make NFC as an open standard so that several different devices have a common bridge of communication. Can't Sony develop a proprietary NFC tag that does not communicate with any other hardware but their own?

Sure? But that would be expensive and relatively easy to figure out.


edit: the reason you use open standards, aside from interoperability, is that people have already done all the hard work of figuring things out.

 

[UncleSporky]

If the alternative is what Microsoft is doing I'll welcome Online Passes with open arms.

This was their plan all along. Propose something so awful that their previous money grubbing scheme is accepted as being beneficial to consumers.

 

[Valnen]

The whole concept of this argument is flawed.

The idea that if people want to install games and not insert discs, that the people who buy at retail need to be screwed in the process. We already have this service, and it works perfectly well, if you want to have the game on your HDD, and not to put a disc in, you buy it from GoD and PSN.

But what if I want to buy the box but still not need the disc? There's no option for that now, and I'd like it.

 

[dab0ne]

but if I buy say ... Resident Evil Outbreak File 3 (are you listening Capcom!?)

Capcom: "Yes"

used,

Capcom: "No"

 

[IHaveCandy]

So it requires internet? I don't see how this is any different than entering a code.

No. The system itself tracks it. That is why it must be de-authenticated from the same system.

And even if it absolutely required an internet check to de-authenticate, it is at least optional and reversible.

 

[IonicSnake]

This was their plan all along. Propose something so awful that their previous money grubbing scheme is accepted as being beneficial to consumers.

The thought crossed my mind.

 

[StuBurns]

But what if I want to buy the box but still not need the disc? There's no option for that now, and I'd like it.

I'm sure you would, I would too. But if the viable alternative to today's model is MS's model, I'd rather we not get that wish.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

This is how it would work.

Guy installs game and tags it to his system/account

Guy gives game to someone else. He must put the game back in his system and de-authenticate it. It must be done on the same system, I suppose.

Game NFC is now set to new, and can be given to anybody.

But does that work? I install a game to my PS4. Can the PS4 say to the NFC data "this is installed, do not allow me to be installed anywhere else" even if its put in an offline PS4 system? Or is the NFC just a static piece of data that can't be altered by the PS4?

 

[Sky Chief]

Yes, this solution wouldn't make publishers as happy.

I don't give a shit if it doesn't make them happy all of a sudden. It has been the status quo for 25+ years now. They are the ones who should "deal with it"

You don't want to see your game on the Used shelf a week after it comes out? Here's a novel idea, make better games that people want to keep!

 

[dab0ne]

No. The system itself tracks it. That is why it must be de-authenticated from the same system.

And even if it absolutely required an internet check to de-authenticate, it is at least optional and reversible.

Right, but if there is no record on the physical disc that it's been deactivated on my PS4 then what to stop it from installing on my brother's PS4 if I let him borrow it? We would both have the game then.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I thought that was when you make NFC as an open standard so that several different devices have a common bridge of communication. Can't Sony develop a proprietary NFC tag that does not communicate with any other hardware but their own?

they can but unless they really dive deep off spec, people can build or mod something that can easily read it and work their way in from there.

 

[NullPointer]

All new game disks come with a single license code. This license code is required to use any online features (beyond a trial) and DLC. No achievements, No gamerscore.

Games can be played with the disk in tray, no problem. But unless there is a valid license registered, online access is limited to an account-bound 48 hour guest pass with no option for DLC/achievements/gamerscore.

This license can be transferred between two online accounts akin to a RPG trade window. This license transfer window is available on the console account website on-line and in-dashboard on the console itself, and can be used to transfer any combination of licenses and credits. Both parties must be online and agree to make the transfer. There is a small transaction fee for this license transfer, used to maintain the security and accessibility of the feature. If the transfer broker wants to share any of this fee with the publisher, fine. This transfer fee should be set at no more than 5% of the value of a new license.

Games can be played *without disk* only if there is a valid lice associated with the game and account. Validation is only required to happen ONCE.

Here's the rub. All DLC is free. Yes, including map packs.

Publishers get their tracking and incentive to purchase (through continued support and DLC and achievements), offline play is fully enabled, loaning, gifting and selling is provided. Console makers get a transaction fee.

 

[Guymelef]

Yeah, how does that work anyways? The way it is now, the game doesn't go online to tell if it is used. It knows just from the disc. Is it really using NFC or something similar? That might give more reason for this to happen with PS4.

For the activation PS3 needs online, but not sure if other consoles also needs internet for check if was redeemed.
Don't know what kind of protection use, but seems very advanced.

 

[Portugeezer]

Sony has had a patent which uses an NFC tag to determine if a game has been used before. This could be used to block all used games, but could be used in a far more user-friendly way. Imagine Kaz Harai presenting it like this at E3:

"We've heard a lot of confusing about disc-based DRM lately, and we're here to set our record straight. PS4 is built to allow it's customers to have just as many rights as the PS3. We want every gamer around the world to be able to play PS4 in any living situation. We're using a breakthrough technology in NFC to allow this, but to also give gamers more options. Options that allow them to have the advantage of downloadable purchases, without having to sacrifice their data caps with 40 GB game downloads. "

"PS4 will install all games onto the PS4. By default, the game acts as key to play the game, like how it is today. However, if you wish to not have to do this, you can tell the PS4 to use the NFC tag to not require a disc check anymore. The NFC tag registers the game, and it will now no longer play on another system. You now do not need to put the disc in to play."

"But what about if you want to sell the game? What if you just want to let a friend borrow it? What if you want to give your game to your nephew? Ofcourse we've thought of this. The NFC chip is reversible. Simply reverse the process and de-authenticate the game being playable without the disc, and the NFC tag will now revert back to it's default state! We're giving you the choice. We've even embedded a watermark on the disc so anybody can easily identify if the game has already been NFC-tagged with a checkmark or "X". No online required."

Thoughts?

Sounds good to me if it could work, except they would never talk about selling off your games.

 

[IHaveCandy]

But does that work? I install a game to my PS4. Can the PS4 say to the NFC data "this is installed, do not allow me to be installed anywhere else" even if its put in an offline PS4 system? Or is the NFC just a static piece of data that can't be altered by the PS4?

The NFC on the disc itself is changed, so yes. It's not a part of the disc data.