How Steam key reselling is killing the little guys

[Tizoc]

Some quick quotes-

IndieGameStand has had $30,759.42 in fraudulent credit card charges and transactions.

The problem with these sites like G2A, Fast2Play, Pingwin, etc. is that they have created an ecosystem for hackers, scammers, identity thefts and other internet assholes to steal from indie developers and other small websites.

http://blog.indiegamestand.com/featured-articles/steam-key-reselling-killing-little-guys/

Was linked on Steam GAF and didn't see a thread for it when I searched.

 

[YianGaruga]

Same thing happened to MangaGamer and it got them in so much trouble that they had to change their payment provider and stop offering Steam keys for purchases on their site.

http://blog.mangagamer.org/2016/02/15/pay-processor-issues/

Although I'm not sure I'd say the issue is "key reselling" because there are legit ways to do that. The issue is people stealing keys.

 

[ebullientprism]

Its weird GAF has such a soft spot for "the little guys" and how G2A etc are all the bad guys yet has no problems exploiting regional pricing (Origin Mexico, Windows store etc) which ends up hurting far more gamers.

Both are the same really, ethically anyway.

 

[ONLYUSEmeFEET]

You'd think people would realize getting amazing deals on game preorders/launches had to hurt the creators, but my discussions here proved otherwise. CDKeys, G2A, and the like have always hurt creators; I'm surprised people trust them. Anything for cheaper games, I suppose.

 

[Nokterian]

To think that G2A is sponsoring a lot of youtubers..streamers and more and they do not know what G2A really is.

 

[Shuggananas]

yeah these platforms are scum, but hey money's money right xd
also do as I say not as I do

fuck g2a & co really

 

[NoblesseOblige]

You'd think people would realize getting amazing deals on game preorders/launches had to hurt the creators, but my discussions here proved otherwise. CDKeys, G2A, and the like have always hurt creators; I'm surprised people trust them. Anything for cheaper games, I suppose.

People tend to justify things to themselves if they benefit from it. I won't use resellers because I have concerns about it impacting local pricing in poorer regions.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The title is a little inaccurate (not your title--their title). Their business is Steam key reselling. The issue is unauthorized Steam key reselling. The thing described is people buying games on IndieGameStand.com (you get a Steam key) and then selling it through G2A/Kinguin/etc. The complaint they have is that many of the people buying on their site are using fraudulent credit cards or doing chargebacks after taking the keys and reselling. IGS's website says they've done a total of $500k in business, so $32k is about 6% of their total business ever. That's pretty big, especially for something with thin margins to begin with.

Of course, the flipside is that wide swaths of their legitimate business is probably also people buying to resell keys. IndieGameStand does most of their business by discounting $10-20 games to $1 for 3 days at a time. There's money to be made by buying large numbers of keys at $1 and reselling at $3 when the price returns to normal. And this hurts developers and Valve but benefits GMG, Humble, IGS, etc.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

To think that G2A is sponsoring a lot of youtubers..streamers and more and they do not know what G2A really is.

Every day we see people in threads asking if G2A and CDKeys are legit sellers.

Sad.

 

[jwhit28]

Is the problem really G2A/Kinguin though? You can shut those places down but wouldn't the people buying the steam codes with stolen credit cards just move to eBay, Craigslist, or Reddit?

 

[YianGaruga]

To think that G2A is sponsoring a lot of youtubers..streamers and more and they do not know what G2A really is.

yeah these platforms are scum, but hey money's money right xd
also do as I say not as I do

fuck g2a & co really

G2A is just a marketplace, they are not doing the scamming and selling of stolen keys.

Also from the other responses I'm assumig no one actually read the article.

 

[SunBroDave]

It's the digital equivalent of buying used games.

 

[Ikuu]

Every day we see people in threads asking if G2A and CDKeys are legit sellers.

Sad.

CDKeys buy region free retail copies and sell the keys, don't see what's wrong with that. This article is about people buying/stealing codes and selling them on marketplaces.

 

[Delusibeta]

Its weird GAF has such a soft spot for "the little guys" and how G2A etc are all the bad guys yet has no problems exploiting regional pricing (Origin Mexico, Windows store etc) which ends up hurting far more gamers.

Both are the same really, ethically anyway.

The fundamental difference is that in exploiting regional sales, the developer gets some money. Sure, less than a full price sale, but more than zero.

If you buy a key from G2A et al, the developer gets zero. It's genuinely a lost sale.

Honestly, it's getting to the stage where if you're considering buying a resold key, you might as well be honest with yourself and pirate the damn thing.

 

[Shuggananas]

Is the problem really G2A/Kinguin though? You can shut those places down but wouldn't the people buying the steam codes with stolen credit cards just move to eBay, Craigslist, or Reddit?

These platforms offer a guarantee, buying from some reddit dude would easily get you scammed

 

[LordRaptor]

Its weird GAF has such a soft spot for "the little guys" and how G2A etc are all the bad guys yet has no problems exploiting regional pricing (Origin Mexico, Windows store etc) which ends up hurting far more gamers.

Both are the same really, ethically anyway.

I'm not defending either, but I think its fair to say that if as a developer your expected sales are large enough internationally that variable pricing per region is an issue you are in a completely different ballgame to someone who might see half of their entire lifetime sales revoked through theft.

 

[Kathian]

Sounds more an issue for the key sellers than the dev no?

Not that am questioning industry commentary which calls people assholes in it.

 

[Mechazawa]

Its weird GAF has such a soft spot for "the little guys" and how G2A etc are all the bad guys yet has no problems exploiting regional pricing (Origin Mexico, Windows store etc) which ends up hurting far more gamers.

Both are the same really, ethically anyway.

Both are not the same. When you purchase a cheaper game through an authorized retailer in a different region, that retailer is still getting paid.

No one is getting paid when a fake twitch/youtube streamer turns around and sells the keys they were given and it actively wastes peoples money and time when storefronts have to deal with fraudulent charges because these keys are using stolen credit cards and being flipped on these free-for-all markets like G2A/Kinguin.

Maybe read the article.

 

[Tizoc]

The title is a little inaccurate (not your title--their title). Their business is Steam key reselling. The issue is unauthorized Steam key reselling. The thing described is people buying games on IndieGameStand.com (you get a Steam key) and then selling it through G2A/Kinguin/etc. The complaint they have is that many of the people buying on their site are using fraudulent credit cards or doing chargebacks after taking the keys and reselling. IGS's website says they've done a total of $500k in business, so $32k is about 6% of their total business ever. That's pretty big, especially for something with thin margins to begin with.

Of course, the flipside is that wide swaths of their legitimate business is probably also people buying to resell keys. IndieGameStand does most of their business by discounting $10-20 games to $1 for 3 days at a time. There's money to be made by buying large numbers of keys at $1 and reselling at $3 when the price returns to normal. And this hurts developers and Valve but benefits GMG, Humble, IGS, etc.

Feel free to correct the Thread title, and thanks for that insight.

 

[YianGaruga]

The fundamental difference is that in exploiting regional sales, the developer gets some money. Sure, less than a full price sale, but more than zero.

If you buy a key from G2A et al, the developer gets zero. It's genuinely a lost sale.

What? No, that's not true at all. Not everyone selling on G2A is stealing keys.

 

[Zafir]

Every day we see people in threads asking if G2A and CDKeys are legit sellers.

Sad.

It's silly to compare G2A to CDKeys. They're both doing fundamentally different things.

G2A is a marketplace where any tom, dick or harry could sell something they've 'obtained'. Unless they've improved it since I last had a look at the site, it used to be really difficult to find out who you were even purchasing the thing off.

CDKeys on the otherhand are a single company who source the games/codes themselves from varying distributors(mostly abroad hence cheap prices) and then sell them on.

 

[dumbo]

Each publisher should publish a list of "authorized resellers". I think Ubisoft does this, but some other publishers don't.

 

[mnz]

The fundamental difference is that in exploiting regional sales, the developer gets some money. Sure, less than a full price sale, but more than zero.

If you buy a key from G2A et al, the developer gets zero. It's genuinely a lost sale.

Honestly, it's getting to the stage where if you're considering buying a resold key, you might as well be honest with yourself and pirate the damn thing.

That's not true, how did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Vuze]

Its weird GAF has such a soft spot for "the little guys" and how G2A etc are all the bad guys yet has no problems exploiting regional pricing (Origin Mexico, Windows store etc) which ends up hurting far more gamers.

Both are the same really, ethically anyway.

Buying games with stolen credit cards and reselling them == using regional pricing to your advantage


ok

 

[Chairmanchuck]

There's money to be made by buying large numbers of keys at $1 and reselling at $3 when the price returns to normal. And this hurts developers and Valve but benefits GMG, Humble, IGS, etc.

I mean you even see this in NeoGAFs own BST thread...

 

[Demise]

Yeah, everything kill the little guys if you listen to them. If it's not the steam key, it's the steam sold, if it's not steam, it's because of the players who refuse to pay 60€$ to buy No Man Sky, if it's not the price, it's piracy, if it's not piracy, it's the player's love for AAA, if it's not the players it's the state they live in that give them 0 money to make games... Wow. I used to work in an indie studio, i'm a financial consultant for some of them, I'm all for the indies, I support them a lot. But seriousely, they should stop the whining, especially when I see the ton of crappy indie games that is released on steam every weeks.

You want to know what is worse for the little guys ? The fact that there is so much indies crappy games and copycat released on steam (and other market) that the risk of your game going unnoticed is HIGH, very HIGH. I find it pretty curious that some of indie studios (almost always the same) keep complaining while so many indie games are released every weeks and when this is the precise reason that so many good studios struggle to be known when they clearly deserve it.

 

[johancruijff]

Of course, the flipside is that wide swaths of their legitimate business is probably also people buying to resell keys. IndieGameStand does most of their business by discounting $10-20 games to $1 for 3 days at a time. There's money to be made by buying large numbers of keys at $1 and reselling at $3 when the price returns to normal. And this hurts developers and Valve but benefits GMG, Humble, IGS, etc.

good old speculation that leads to a bubble sooner or later

 

[sibarraz]

Criticizing G2A or Kinguin because some guys sell games bought with fraudulent cards is like criticizing Ebay because some guys sell things that were stolen from a house.

At least I had used those sites to sell some games that were left unused from other bundles and got some money with it.

At least you can't criticize those sites and then create an uproar because Microsoft tried to create a drm console where you couldn't play used games

In the other hand, companies should find ways to punish those guys that buy keys with fraudelent cards.

 

[Kama_1082]

You'd think people would realize getting amazing deals on game preorders/launches had to hurt the creators, but my discussions here proved otherwise. CDKeys, G2A, and the like have always hurt creators; I'm surprised people trust them. Anything for cheaper games, I suppose.

agreed. Same goes for the key resellers on the BST thread here. I guess people really don't care where the beef comes from.

 

[TriAceJP]

Every time one of these threads comes up, people say the same incorrect slander.

Read the article, CdKeys is not the problem.

 

[jwhit28]

These platforms offer a guarantee, buying from some reddit dude would easily get you scammed

eBay is safe for buyers and Reddit already has a big 2nd hand Windows key market. It seems like the battle should be for some sort of seller protection against credit card fraud. Maybe a type of insurance?

 

[YianGaruga]

Yeah, everything kill the little guys if you listen to them. If it's not the steam key, it's the steam sold, if it's not steam, it's because of the players who refuse to pay 60€$ to buy No Man Sky, if it's not the price, it's piracy, if it's not piracy, it's the player's love for AAA, if it's not the players it's the state they live in that give them 0 money to make games... Wow. I used to work in an indie studio, i'm a financial consultant for some of them, I'm all for the indies, I support them a lot. But seriousely, they should stop the whining, especially when I see the ton of crappy indie games that is released on steam every weeks.

You want to know what is worse for the little guys ? The fact that there is so much indies crappy games and copycat released on steam (and other market) that the risk of your game going unnoticed is HIGH, very HIGH. I find it pretty curious that some of indie studios (almost always the same) keep complaining while so many indie games are released every weeks and when this is the precise reason that so many good studios struggle to be known when they clearly deserve it.

uhh.. The article is about actual theft and credit card fraud. That's an actual reason and not some made up excuse

 

[Horsemama1956]

Both are not the same. When you purchase a cheaper game through an authorized retailer in a different region, that retailer is still getting paid.

No one is getting paid when a fake twitch/youtube streamer turns around and sells the keys they were given and it actively wastes peoples money and time when storefronts have to deal with fraudulent charges because these keys are using stolen credit cards and being flipped on these free-for-all markets like G2A/Kinguin.

Maybe read the article.

You are not meant to pay that price unless you're in that region. The price is low in certain regions because people are dirt poor there, etc. It's not the same but it's pretty scummy, though I don't really care.

You are sort of ripping someone off when you buy cheap out of region.

 

[see5harp]

Its weird GAF has such a soft spot for "the little guys" and how G2A etc are all the bad guys yet has no problems exploiting regional pricing (Origin Mexico, Windows store etc) which ends up hurting far more gamers.

Both are the same really, ethically anyway.

Nope.

 

[NIN90]

You are not meant to pay that price unless you're in that region. The price is low in certain regions because people are dirt poor there, etc. It's not the same but it's pretty scummy, though I don't really care.

You are sort of ripping someone off when you buy cheap out of region.

But it's okay for the same publishers to source asset creation in the same poor regions? Globalization isn't a one way street.

(I guess this doesn't apply to the indie games discussed in the article, though)

 

[jshackles]

The article presents an interesting solution to their problem:

If anyone at Valve is reading this, I would love to have some sort of backend API tool where I could input stolen codes and hurt the hackers’ reps on whatever marketplace they are using to resell keys. It would be a nice tool for developers to stop the Youtube/Streamer problem

Currently, publishers can do this, but it has to be coordinated directly with their business partner (rep) at Valve. Theoretically, IGS could send a list of the keys that should be deactivated to the developer/publisher in question, who could then pass it on to Valve and those keys could be revoked.

Others have said that they don't want to injure the recipient of the key, who likely paid money for it and are thus a paying customer. However, this is exactly what happens if you buy the game directly on Steam with a stolen credit card, gift or trade it to another account, and the card issuer does a charge-back. The Steam account in question is also has their purchasing privileges revoked.

I know publishers don't want to screw over loyal paying customers, but it would be interesting to see if the prospect of "no fraud liability" from the reseller (IGS, in this case) would sway them enough to comply with such a request.

 

[napata]

agreed. Same goes for the key resellers on the BST thread here. I guess people really don't care where the beef comes from.

Keys in the BST thread are usually from hardware bundles. Totally different from stealing or using fraud to acquire keys and sell them.

 

[Spacejaws]

The fundamental difference is that in exploiting regional sales, the developer gets some money. Sure, less than a full price sale, but more than zero.

If you buy a key from G2A et al, the developer gets zero. It's genuinely a lost sale.

Honestly, it's getting to the stage where if you're considering buying a resold key, you might as well be honest with yourself and pirate the damn thing.

But...it's not actually 0...because they purchased the keys legitimately. I don't think anybody is saying selling stolen keys should not be condemed but legitimate ones then sure. Thats akin to saying buying second hand physicial games is nothing short of piracy.

 

[Ninja Sharingan]

Its weird GAF has such a soft spot for "the little guys" and how G2A etc are all the bad guys yet has no problems exploiting regional pricing (Origin Mexico, Windows store etc) which ends up hurting far more gamers.

Both are the same really, ethically anyway.

I honestly can't believe how much I see people abusing other markets stores. It's seen as ok tho :/

 

[Evolution of Metal]

Pingwin XD

It is Kinguin.

You'd think people would realize getting amazing deals on game preorders/launches had to hurt the creators, but my discussions here proved otherwise. CDKeys, G2A, and the like have always hurt creators; I'm surprised people trust them. Anything for cheaper games, I suppose.

First of all: G2A pre-orders and the entire CDkeys have nothing to do with this article. Nor there is evidence that they hurt developers.

G2A Marketplace is not ideal. G2A requires new users to provide evidence of legitimate and valid keys, they withhold money from sellers to prevent quick scams as well. Feedback for sellers isn't instant, you can leave a feedback 60 days later if your key is revoked. However, those are measures to protect buyers, not publishers.

We shouldn't kill the community marketplace just because there are assholes thieves who abuse it. I believe G2A would cull all stolen keys if they could, just like craigslist would remove all stolen bikes if they could.

 

[Cyrano]

Not that there is really a reasonable way to solve this problem, but I am curious if there are statistics on how big of a problem this is? Not so much the reselling of keys, but reselling based on fraudulent charges?

Would just be interesting to know what percentage or number of purchases this is affecting.

 

[YianGaruga]

Not that there is really a reasonable way to solve this problem, but I am curious if there are statistics on how big of a problem this is? Not so much the reselling of keys, but reselling based on fraudulent charges?

Would just be interesting to know what percentage or number of purchases this is affecting.

Enough so that Mangagamer had to shut down their store for a week or two and change payment providers. It's apparently not negligible.

 

[Erasus]

Stolen stuff is probably sold everyday on ebay, craigslist etc

Kinguin/G2A is a marketplace for cdkeys and takes advantage of regional price differences. Stolen keys are probably sold there but the dev/publisher can always send a list to steam/origin/GOG to deactivate a set of keys

 

[smisk]

I only use cdkeys for AAA releases where I'm not sure they're worth $60. I think the only games I've bought off there have been BLOPS III and SFV. If it's an indie game I'll gladly pay full price from Steam.

 

[drunkenbaker]

I honestly can't believe how much I see people abusing other markets stores. It's seen as ok tho :/

It IS OK, consumers have just as much right to take advantage of regional pricing as corporations.

 

[ONLYUSEmeFEET]

Pingwin XD

It is Kinguin.



First of all: G2A pre-orders and the entire CDkeys have nothing to do with this article. Nor there are evidence that they hurt developers.

G2A Marketplace is not ideal. G2A requires new users to provide evidence of legitimate and valid keys, they withhold money from sellers to prevent quick scams as well. Feedback for sellers isn't instant, you can leave a feedback 60 days later if your key is revoked. However, those are measures to protect buyers, not publishers.

We shouldn't kill community marketplace just because there are assholes thieves who abuse it. I believe G2A would cull all stolen keys if they could, just like craigslist would remove all stolen bikes if they could.

You seriously are telling me $30 preorders on $60 MSRP games isn't hurting the creator? Whether it be fraud, region differences, or review codes, there's no way you can consider these legitimate, discounting hardware promotional keys. Someone's taking a hit here, no matter how much you lie to yourself thinking this is okay.

 

[Cyrano]

It's apparently not negligible.

Certainly aware of this, but I'd just be curious to know if there was... well, a number on what that means. My own thinking tends to be that fraudulent charges don't tend to add up to significant amounts all that often and that the damage tends to relate more to trust-related agencies rather than the actual amount of lost sales. That is, it hurts their credibility and that pain snowballs, whereas the sales lost are static.

 

[Ikuu]

You seriously are telling me $30 preorders on $60 MSRP games isn't hurting the creator? Whether it be fraud, region differences, or review codes, there's no way you can consider these legitimate, discounting hardware promotional keys. Someone's taking a hit here, no matter how much you lie to yourself thinking this is okay.

Funny how you only ever hear this about video games, why wouldn't I take advantage of regional prices to save money?

 

[darkinstinct]

Seems to me like they are complaining a lot when the solution is easy on their side: Don't allow credit card payments, do PayPal, bank transfer, mobile payment only. Or use credit card companies that use PINs as a security check. Or simply limit the amount of codes one can order per day. Until they do so I'm not really feeling sorry for them.

And devs need to stop giving out codes left and right. They already do, though. G2A is not the problem, it's just a marketplace and their service is a security layer that makes sure you actually get what you pay for. Sure there are lots of scammers on G2A, because a lot of people think they can use the platform without paying the fee for a secure transaction. And they are waiting for those.

 

[Odrion]

Funny how you only ever hear this about video games, why wouldn't I take advantage of regional prices to save money?

Remember when everyone was okay with buying used copies of games for $55 even though none of that money reached the dev and publisher?