• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

How to shutdown every "Womens soccer needs equal pay!" arguement

PKM

Gold Member
Oct 11, 2017
953
1,247
610
Ask them..

"If you care so much about womens soccer..
What teams will you be watching till the next world cup?
Did you attend any games before the league folded in 2012?
Do you go see the amateur/semi-pro league in your closes city?
How many tickets have you ever bought to a pro/semi/amateur game?
How much merch do you own?
How many non-WC tourney games have you watched?
Did you join a supporters club and push for a pro team when the league was around?
Are you a supporter or WHATEVER local team is around currently?
Do you donate to your towns/cities female/girls soccer clubs?

Etc.."

I am watching women and men go full social justice maniac after this last women's WC win..

And not a SINGLE one of these people support womens soccer financially and/or any way till its WC time...and then they WANT?!



(I could also say these above reasons some what fuck our mens team also. If we supported our mens leagues/teams/MLS etc.. we could prob compete better)
 

Kagey K

Gold Member
Dec 18, 2013
3,025
2,828
720
I watch a lot of women’s soccer, but I don’t pay to do so.

My kid is on an amateur team and I solely only watch thier games, but the same can be said for all sports and all teams.

Every single sport last year saw a decrease in sales, and they have to find new ways to get people to attend their events.

Nobody wants to pay the hundreds of dollars to go to your game, unless it is the playoffs, then suddenly everyone loves you.
 
Last edited:

Tako Ou

Neo Member
Mar 26, 2019
25
30
110
Well, depends how we solve the issue.
If it's by making the girls win as much as the boys then yes, they will need a ton of income to support that.
On the other hand if we make the boys win as "little" as the girls then... I don't see a problem. :messenger_smirking:

PS: I dislike soccer, and this dislike is completely gender-free.
 

DKehoe

Gold Member
Jun 19, 2007
5,004
690
1,235
You could have posted this in one of the numerous threads about this.
 

Kagey K

Gold Member
Dec 18, 2013
3,025
2,828
720
Well, depends how we solve the issue.
If it's by making the girls win as much as the boys then yes, they will need a ton of income to support that.
On the other hand if we make the boys win as "little" as the girls then... I don't see a problem. :messenger_smirking:

PS: I dislike soccer, and this dislike is completely gender-free.
If girls are playing girls how do you have less girls win?

I don’t get this.

The dominant girls teams are usually carrying better records then the boys, but somehow they have to win more?
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2018
3,573
2,766
440
The best way to perk up anyone's pay is to simply prove to the bosses you're that valuable. And to be fair to the management side, they have the money to pay for it. Pretty sure the Miami Marlins aren't going to be signing any $30 million/yr contracts anytime soon. But you get the idea.

You don't have to be the winningest player or team to be paid the most. It all comes down to revenue draw for sports. Winning should "in theory" help because people usually like to watch winners or the better athlete but that's not always true. Pretty sure the Red Sox get better money even in their bad years than the Tampa Bay Rays being first place years back. And how Manny Pacquiao as a flyweight makes more money than heavyweights. People love seeing Manny so he banks big money.

Money is out there. And there is no other kind of industry out there like sports (or entertainment in general) where pay scales can be off the charts or have deals like players get xxx% of revenue terms and stuff like that.

All you got to do is pitch to management you're that good and deserve the pay. And if they agree and have the money to pay for it, you get big contracts because they want the revenue to keep coming in.

It's an easy concept to understand. If you're that good, don't sign gimped multi year deals back by a union contract.
 
Last edited:

PKM

Gold Member
Oct 11, 2017
953
1,247
610
All Im saying is..
If I want to go out there and scream things like "Pay the mens Pro Hide and Seek team more!"
I better god damn be a fan, follow it during the season, spend money on it, spread the word about the team/teams/players etc..

I'm seeing women and men come out the woodwork about this pay issue yet they could give fuck all about the womens players, womens soccer, and or soccer in general.

If these people cared they would buy merch and wear it. I know my MLS gear has sparked convos with people who didnt know we had a league or a team local..and perhaps that person looked into it, went to a game, watched a game etc.. this in turn increased revenue thus salary.

Pay = Revenue = sales..which is increased via tickets/merch/viewership/brand etc..

If your not helping the revenue in some way who are you to push for pay increases?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: slugbahr

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
34,733
7,130
1,340
if they cannot pull in the money after this recent victory and push, society prolly ain't the problem
 

Skyr

Member
Sep 4, 2013
1,551
1,455
630
It ain’t rocket science.
If you have decent manager he will determine and negotiate what you are worth in relation to what you bring in, in revenue to whatever organization.
And since nobody cares for female soccer they don’t get shit. Too bad, should have made a career in tennis instead.

I fail to see how there even could be an argument about it.
It’s very clear cut compared to the corporate world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tesseract

ROMhack

Member
Jul 14, 2018
1,537
1,205
560
While equal pay is a good idea, it makes no sense in professional sports and suggests ignorance on the matter. Sports income is dictated by so many things: national and overseas television rights, corporate sponsorship, attendance receipts, shirt sales, merchandising, etc. All of these are reliant on how popular the sport and teams are, respectively.

The best outcome is for the WWC is to help publicise the sport so that eventually it gains popularity and achieves some of the above.
 
Last edited:

HarryKS

Member
Jan 24, 2010
3,101
292
735
Money in football is in the leagues, not international competitions. Depending on the federation, I can see why they'd want more for international games though. Can't hate a little bit of hustling. They're looking out for themselves at the end of the day.
 

ruvikx

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,013
1,724
400
A bunch of guys should shave their legs & walk down a catwalk wearing women's Victoria's Secret underwear... & demand equal pay with Candice Swanepoel, Rosie Huntington etc.

That would essentially be the male equivalent of this women's soccer farce. They dress like men, attempt to play the game like men... whilst being nothing more than a pale imitation with far lower skills & with only a fraction of the world's football fans watching them. There's no history to women's soccer, no tribalism, no "River Plate versus Boca Juniors, Real versus Barca", no legendary players, legendary teams, legendary matches (Brazil losing the 1950 World Cup at home against Uruguay in front of 200,000 devastated fans in the Maracana stadium for example), i.e. none of the essence which made the men's game a global phenomenon.

Women's soccer is an empty spectacle riding on the coattails on the men's sport & performed by seemingly a bunch of greedy people who'll use current-year SJW outrage tactics in an attempt to fill their own pockets.
 

Skyr

Member
Sep 4, 2013
1,551
1,455
630
Money in football is in the leagues, not international competitions. Depending on the federation, I can see why they'd want more for international games though. Can't hate a little bit of hustling. They're looking out for themselves at the end of the day.
Nah the same principles apply to international games.
There is massive money in merchandise, sponsorships and tv rights for men’s euro/world cups. Which ultimately determines the players compensations.
 
Last edited:

Tako Ou

Neo Member
Mar 26, 2019
25
30
110
If girls are playing girls how do you have less girls win?

I don’t get this.

The dominant girls teams are usually carrying better records then the boys, but somehow they have to win more?
My bad, meant "earn" and not "win" (same word in french :( )
 
Last edited:

JoduanER2

Member
Jan 7, 2013
1,000
79
475
Chile
Theres nothing to discuss. Is like saying why someone who appears in a hollywood movie gets pay much more that someone from a local tv drama. One is view by million of people and the other by hundreds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Radical Dreamer
Mar 1, 2018
481
682
360
Poland
I was laughing at reddit pretending they care about women's football all of a sudden xD Noone talks about it here in Poland or even if they do then just to mock it lol, skill disparity is just laughable.
 

Brizzady

Member
Jul 28, 2018
241
267
255
Yeah that argument doesn't shut down shit in the US where women's soccer is far more popular than mens. Neither does your misspelling of argument.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Nobody_Important

MrTickles

Member
Feb 22, 2018
2,967
3,894
650
Top Women's soccer players who can't contend with 14 year old boys want to be paid $100 million a year like top players from men's soccer?

But how? Nobody watches the sport. And if yes do we start paying 14 year old boys soccer players $100 million, they're as good as the top women's team.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Radical Dreamer

daveonezero

Member
Nov 19, 2018
394
224
240
That’s not something that is worth arguing over.

Who cares.
Sjws are toddlers and eventually they will get tired and fall over.
 

mooshie78

Gold Member
Aug 20, 2008
10,313
1,001
1,070
Yeah that argument doesn't shut down shit in the US where women's soccer is far more popular than mens. Neither does your misspelling of argument.
Yep. I get the women’s pro club players not getting paid nearly as much as the men as attendance is much lower and they aren’t even televised here in the US that I’m aware of.

The women’s national team players should be paid at least as much as the men’s national team players for their national team duties though. They draw as much if not more attendance (US men are usually only sold out for home games if they’re playing Mexico or in a final) and tv ratings.
 

Fbh

Gold Member
Dec 6, 2013
11,009
3,218
825
Professional sports is ultimately entertainment. And as a such wages will be based on how much money, viewership, add revenue, merchandise sales, etc you bring in instead of just the type of work that you do.

Celebrities get paid more for their role in movies than lesser known actors despite their work on paper potentially being the same
Big famous bands/artists will generally get paid more to attend a festival than smaller lesser known bands despite their work on paper being the same
Famous streamers or youtubers with big fanbases will get paid more than less popular ones to promote a game, despite their work on paper being the same.

Sports is no different and I've honestly never understood why some look at it as this sort of noble or special type of work, as If I'm supposed to be in awe and give you tons of money simply because you decided to play a sport professionally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JoduanER2

mooshie78

Gold Member
Aug 20, 2008
10,313
1,001
1,070
Professional sports is ultimately entertainment. And as a such wages will be based on how much money, viewership, add revenue, merchandise sales, etc you bring in instead of just the type of work that you do.
That's very true. But is missing that the US Women's National Team is more popular and successful than the men's team. That's why they have a strong argument in this specific case.

No one would argue that say the Arsenal Women's team player's should make as much as the Arsenal men's team. The women's professional club leagues aren't even a fraction of as popular or revenue generating. That's not the case with the US National teams.

I watch both regularly, and the US men's team usually has pretty sparse crowds for games in the US unless they're playing Mexico (or another opponent in a city with a lot of immigrants from that country) or it's a tournament final. Attendance was pretty poor in the Gold Cup matches I watched outside of the final against Mexico--and it looked like at least 2/3rds of the crowd was Mexico fans. The women's team gets much better attendance even for friendlies, gets better TV ratings etc. There's no reason for them to not be paid the same for their national team duties.

Again, when they go back to their club teams, they are going to make a TON less than even MLS players as those games just aren't well attended and don't have national TV contract money etc. coming in.

I'd also add here than national team sports, olympic teams etc. aren't really money makers in general so all these arguments don't really apply. Most countries, and even most US teams, are going to be money losers that are being paid to try to win for national pride. So given that context, there's even less reason to not pay male and female athletes equally. It's not like the pro leagues where everything is done with the goal of making owners profits first, and winning championships is just part of trying to increase profit margins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kunonabi and Mihos

Fbh

Gold Member
Dec 6, 2013
11,009
3,218
825
That's very true. But is missing that the US Women's National Team is more popular and successful than the men's team. That's why they have a strong argument in this specific case.

No one would argue that say the Arsenal Women's team player's should make as much as the Arsenal men's team. The women's professional club leagues aren't even a fraction of as popular or revenue generating. That's not the case with the US National teams.

I watch both regularly, and the US men's team usually has pretty sparse crowds for games in the US unless they're playing Mexico (or another opponent in a city with a lot of immigrants from that country) or it's a tournament final. Attendance was pretty poor in the Gold Cup matches I watched outside of the final against Mexico--and it looked like at least 2/3rds of the crowd was Mexico fans. The women's team gets much better attendance even for friendlies, gets better TV ratings etc. There's no reason for them to not be paid the same for their national team duties.

Again, when they go back to their club teams, they are going to make a TON less than even MLS players as those games just aren't well attended and don't have national TV contract money etc. coming in.

I'd also add here than national team sports, olympic teams etc. aren't really money makers in general so all these arguments don't really apply. Most countries, and even most US teams, are going to be money losers that are being paid to try to win for national pride. So given that context, there's even less reason to not pay male and female athletes equally. It's not like the pro leagues where everything is done with the goal of making owners profits first, and winning championships is just part of trying to increase profit margins.
Well to be honest I don't really follow or know much about Football/Soccer in the USA.
So if the women's team does indeed bring in larger crowds and viewership than their male counterpart I think it's only fair for them to get paid as much if not more.

As for National teams, again, I'm not sure how it works in the USA. In my country, at least in the case of football, there's this "national football association" which is the one that pays players for their participation in competitions representing the country, and thay still generate a lot of money through the national team in the form of Marketing deals (like a $50+ million deal with Nike so they can be the official brand of the team) and the TV rights of several matches. Since the men's team, at least here, generates much higher viewership it only makes sense that they generate bigger marketing deals and more exclusive TV rights so IMO it makes sense for them to get paid more.

But yeah, ultimately, compared to the clubs these national competitions don't bring in that much money and it's more about the fame than anything else
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mooshie78

mooshie78

Gold Member
Aug 20, 2008
10,313
1,001
1,070
Well to be honest I don't really follow or know much about Football/Soccer in the USA.
So if the women's team does indeed bring in larger crowds and viewership than their male counterpart I think it's only fair for them to get paid as much if not more.
No worries. The US is really a nation of fair weather fans. The Men's team has mostly been medicore at best and rarely even wins local regional tournaments like the Gold Cup. The Women's team is obviously dominant. That's a big part of the larger and more consistent support for them, people here aren't going to get excited and rally behind a medicore team.

Plus girls youth soccer is just hugely popular and moreso than boy's leagues in a lot of place. So you get all that support from those girls and their families, where as a lot more of the atheletic boys and their families are into football, basketball or baseball.

I'd imagine women's team jersey sales are higher as well given that's who these girls (and their families) idolize, vs. the men's teams where kids are more likely to buy club team jerseys than national team jerseys. For instance, I imagine people would rather buy a Christian Pulisic Chelsea Jersey in the next few years than his men's national team jersey. Where as I can't imagine many will buy an Alex Morgan Orlando Pride jersey instead of her national team one.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Mihos and Fbh

All Hail C-Webb

Hailing from the Chill-Web
Jun 6, 2004
1,847
185
1,575
New York
That's not a very good argument at all.
I'd answer no to all of that, but it'd be the exact same answer for the men.

The women's world cup final drew a higher rating than the last Men's WC final. I know that the US men's team didn't make it, but that's part of the point, they suck.

In general, I don't think female athletes should get nearly as much as men. When it comes to a shitty sport like soccer that very few people in the US give a shit about anyway, it should definitely be closer than it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mihos

manfestival

Member
Nov 12, 2009
10,586
1,224
885
I watch a lot of women’s soccer, but I don’t pay to do so.

My kid is on an amateur team and I solely only watch thier games, but the same can be said for all sports and all teams.

Every single sport last year saw a decrease in sales, and they have to find new ways to get people to attend their events.

Nobody wants to pay the hundreds of dollars to go to your game, unless it is the playoffs, then suddenly everyone loves you.
You are not a true fan of the sport then or team. Your words are super hollow. Plenty of people like you in my old city. I love my Bucs and I know they are trash but I still go to the games because I love the experience. I also love my Lightning and they are an AMAZING team. I go to lightning games less. I support both teams because I love the sports. Yes these things are money sinks but that is like any other hobby.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
May 12, 2007
6,534
400
1,250
Texaa
You have to look at the cost side of things as well. On the surface, it does seem like the women should be paid more for the national team stuff when looking at the world cup in isolation. But I bet if you peak under the hood the women's national association also has different costs than the men.'s For example, how many regional tournaments are they participating in vs. the men, and do those tournaments also make money or are they more costly.

At the end of the day if the women feel they are mistreated they should strike, but the economics of the strike are going to be tough. If most of their money is made during the world cup, and it only comes around every 4 years, well you may literally only be good enough to be on that national team for 1 world cup.

In fact, thinking about it collective bargaining may not be the best compensation model when you the major payday is only every 4 years and your athletic lifespan is less than 10 years. Individual contracts may serve better.
 

mooshie78

Gold Member
Aug 20, 2008
10,313
1,001
1,070
You have to look at the cost side of things as well. On the surface, it does seem like the women should be paid more for the national team stuff when looking at the world cup in isolation. But I bet if you peak under the hood the women's national association also has different costs than the men.'s For example, how many regional tournaments are they participating in vs. the men, and do those tournaments also make money or are they more costly.
I do agree that stuff needs looked at. But I'd be shocked if the men's team wasn't more costly. Again, the Gold Cup games I watched outside of the final were pretty sparsely attended. They seem to only pack stadiums if they're playing Mexico (as it's majority Mexico fans like the final the other day), in a final, or occasionally when it's a game other than Mexico where the other country has a lot of immigrants in that city (a game against Costa Rica in NY or NJ a couple years back--World Cup qualifier I think--that was sell out and a very hostile crowd due to a ton of opposing fans in that area). The women's team seems to get pretty solid attendance even for friendlies. But I'm not sure if ticket prices and revenue are equivalent and so on.

In any case, I think national sports are the exception to the rule as they're more for national pride, tons of Olympic sports have very little fan following or support for the men or women's side of things so I just don't see a reason to not pay men's and women's national team/Olympic athletes equally. It's not a profit driven endeavor like professional sports. Pay shouldn't be equal there as the point of pro sports is profit for owners above all else and women's sports are less profitable. National teams and olympic teams are about national pride more than making money for the national associations as there are no owners etc. to keep happy. Pay them equally--and modestly compared to what male athletes on top pro clubs make.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cryptoadam

JareBear

Gold Member
Nov 5, 2016
10,963
13,311
780
I don't care where (just far)
I don’t even think you need to go that far, OP.

Athletics are all about “the pie.”

It’s simple math. Men’s soccer brings in X amount of dollars, is X sized pie. Thus, men’s players are worth X amount, get X share of their pie.

Women’s soccer brings in X amount, is X sized pie. Thus women’s players are worth X amount, get X share of their pie.

I feel like professional sports it’s always been pretty cut and dry as far as getting paid what you’re worth. I guess the battle is determining that worth, sometimes. That’s what agents are for.

There are some exceptions (namely the UFC), but that’s not really even an exception it’s just a variation where the people paying the money have all the leverage, more or less.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: All Hail C-Webb

mooshie78

Gold Member
Aug 20, 2008
10,313
1,001
1,070
I don’t even think you need to go that far, OP.

Athletics are all about “the pie.”

It’s simple math. Men’s soccer brings in X amount of dollars, is X sized pie. Thus, men’s players are worth X amount, get X share of their pie.

Women’s soccer brings in X amount, is X sized pie. Thus women’s players are worth X amount, get X share of their pie.

I feel like professional sports it’s always been pretty cut and dry as far as getting paid what you’re worth. I guess the battle is determining that worth, sometimes. That’s what agents are for.

There are some exceptions (namely the UFC), but that’s not really even an exception it’s just a variation where the people paying the money have all the leverage, more or less.
You're missing the above discussions that point out that when it comes to the specific case of the US Women's National Team and the US Men's National Team the pies are at best pretty equivalent, and it's quite likely the women's team's pie is larger. They win while the men's team is mediocre, they have better attendance at most of their matches, their world cup matches get better TV ratings (though not their other games) and they probably sell more merch (more people buy pro club team jerseys for male soccer players).

No one is saying that women pro club team players should get paid the same as the male players in MLS or the pro leagues in other countries (especially Europe were the stars make crazy money). Just that in the case of these two national teams, the women should't be getting paid less when they're more successful and almost definitely generating as much, if not more, revenue than the US Men's National Team. Along with my arguments of how national team/olympic teams sports are more about national pride than generating profit (no owners etc.) than the professional leagues.
 
Oct 26, 2018
3,573
2,766
440
Womens team agreed to a union based contract years ago that dictates salaries and bonuses paid.

Team just won the cup so they are trying to break the contract and get more money now.
 

dionysus

Yaldog
May 12, 2007
6,534
400
1,250
Texaa
In any case, I think national sports are the exception to the rule as they're more for national pride, tons of Olympic sports have very little fan following or support for the men or women's side of things so I just don't see a reason to not pay men's and women's national team/Olympic athletes equally. It's not a profit driven endeavor like professional sports. Pay shouldn't be equal there as the point of pro sports is profit for owners above all else and women's sports are less profitable. National teams and olympic teams are about national pride more than making money for the national associations as there are no owners etc. to keep happy. Pay them equally--and modestly compared to what male athletes on top pro clubs make.
I believe the US national organizations self fund through various means like endorsements. In fact, the US Olympic organization is entirely self funded which is the exception on the world stage and not the standard. So there is no national budget to just pay them equally, it all has to balance.

Women soccer athletes have chosen to collectively bargain their wages. The solution to their problem is to use those tools to bargain for a better deal. They have a pretty weak hand though, unlike the men who get money, exposure, and endorsements based upon their league participation (MLS or foreign leagues). In any negotiation, you must be willing to hurt the other side of the table or you don't have any power. For the women, striking and refusing to play for the national team would mean a huge loss of income for them, especially the secondary income that comes from nationwide exposure. They have no other method of exposure other than the national team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cryptoadam

cryptoadam

... and he cannot lie
Feb 21, 2018
5,586
5,553
860
Nah best way is to ask that person if the women are willing to give up their 100K guranteed pay so they are "equal" to the men who only get paid bonuses for playing a game.

I bet not one person will say thats ok, because its not about equal pay , its about the mens game subsidizing the womens game. Mens WC gets 400 Million per team, generates 6 billion in revenue. Womens WC generated 133 million in revenue. There isn't enough money from the womens WC to pay what the men get in bonuses anyways and the women know this.

I think the best solution is to seperate the USNWT and the USNMT and let them stand each on their own. When the mens 100's of millions aren't there anymore I wonder what tune they will sing?
 

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
4,570
3,263
625
Nah best way is to ask that person if the women are willing to give up their 100K guranteed pay so they are "equal" to the men who only get paid bonuses for playing a game.

I bet not one person will say thats ok, because its not about equal pay , its about the mens game subsidizing the womens game. Mens WC gets 400 Million per team, generates 6 billion in revenue. Womens WC generated 133 million in revenue. There isn't enough money from the womens WC to pay what the men get in bonuses anyways and the women know this.

I think the best solution is to seperate the USNWT and the USNMT and let them stand each on their own. When the mens 100's of millions aren't there anymore I wonder what tune they will sing?
I completely agree they should be separated. They are using a willfully ignorant press who wants clicks to create a false narrative. This is not much different than a freshman soccer team demanding varsity jackets for winning the freshman league while the varsity team missed the playoffs. Only difference is instead of demanding the other team's jackets, they want their money instead. So fine. Make them put their money where their mouth is. Separate the leagues and pay them what they are worth based 100% on the revenue they generate. If they are as commercially valuable as they claim they would jump at this chance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cryptoadam