Hungarian govt proposes to abolish gender studies in Hungary

#1
LINK to article

At the beginning of the week Hungarian universities received 24 hours from the Ministry of Human Capacities (EMMI) and the Ministry of Justice (IM) to comment on a proposed amendment, which declares that no gender studies courses can be launched in the future, HVG.hu reported on Friday.
I think this is the first case of govt stamping down on gender studies in any country.
Though i expect more to follow.
 
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#3
This will certainly be an interesting social experiment.

Does this qualify as liberating academics from a backwards ideology? Or does it qualify as silencing opposing viewpoints that fall under the nebulous moniker of "gender studies"?

I'd be interested in a more meritocratic approach. For instance, if the theses (thesis plural?) and dissertations of the students and professors of every discrete department (English, Mathematics, Gender Studies, whatever) are not peer-referenced above a certain threshhold (i.e. if it's actually being read or if it's just masturbatory garbage that no one is citing) then that department loses funding. If that department keeps spinning its wheels, the Administrators (where most of the rot is anyway, to be honest) take a paycut, followed by the tenured professors. Keep it up and the department just fizzles out of existence.

It's quite simple and adds a non-partisan layer of accountability to our schools.
 

JordanN

Junior Member
#4
One of my big issues with "Free college for all!" is that you have people going to school and getting pointless degrees like this.

Yeah, there's no way I want my tax dollars going towards that. Maybe Hungary can replace these courses with a biology one.
 
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#5
LINK to article



I think this is the first case of govt stamping down on gender studies in any country.
Though i expect more to follow.
Its not the first time. In Scandinavia there was a series pretty big called Brainwash which touched on various more controversial subject liek Gender equality, Race, Violence etc. And through these videos the swedish gov did stop funding for gender and socail studies for more than a year.

Honestly. I do not think it should be forbidden. We still have religion you can study and this is also made up bullshit. But it should no be taken seriously unless they are using actual long term studies with scientific methods. But this does not happen much in this field.
 
#6
This will certainly be an interesting social experiment.

Does this qualify as liberating academics from a backwards ideology? Or does it qualify as silencing opposing viewpoints that fall under the nebulous moniker of "gender studies"?
Well in europe subjects are paid by goverment so they don't even have to give any reason to remove or add any. Generally speaking usually universities are given leeway in what they can do and usually there aren't many things they can't do (in reasonable budget.

Personally i think "gender studies" is wrong idea in how to aproach subject. IT should be under biology departament instead of being its own thing and papers they push needs to be peer reviewed by biology scientists.
 
#12
It's such a scam anyway. It's a way for colleges to bring people in who wouldn't normally go to college and charge them tens of thousands of dollars for classes that are incredibly cheap for them to run. Compare that to something like physics or chemistry which require expensive professors, expensive lab equipment, ect.

Colleges make a killing on horseshit classes like these and the students who rack up massive debt for them end up with nothing real to show for it in the end except bright red hair and black framed glasses.
 
#13
It's such a scam anyway. It's a way for colleges to bring people in who wouldn't normally go to college and charge them tens of thousands of dollars for classes that are incredibly cheap for them to run. Compare that to something like physics or chemistry which require expensive professors, expensive lab equipment, ect.

Colleges make a killing on horseshit classes like these and the students who rack up massive debt for them end up with nothing real to show for it in the end except bright red hair and black framed glasses.
I would love to see the college administrations reaction if Trump passed federal regulations capping how much a university can charge to how much a student is likely to make post degree. It's insane that you pay essentially the same amount for a "studies" class that you pay for a class in computer science. One is essentially worthless.
 
#15
Good to see them remove education which has proven to be an absolute waste of time, resources and potential. Get real degrees people. No employer that matters cares about this kind of "education".
 
#16
I would love to see the college administrations reaction if Trump passed federal regulations capping how much a university can charge to how much a student is likely to make post degree. It's insane that you pay essentially the same amount for a "studies" class that you pay for a class in computer science. One is essentially worthless.
I don't think Trump or Conservatives would be the ones to do something like that, that seems wildly anti-capitalism/free market.
 
#18
If it’s funded by public money than Universities should not be issuing accredations for what is tantamount to a religious activity or hobby club.

No Gay Conversion Therapy courses, no “Insert Religion” Science, no courses in how to reach Nirvana, no 5th edition rules of Dungeons and Dragons courses, no Fortune Telling courses, no courses on Simpsonology or Batmanology, and certainly no Gender Studies.

If people want to learn these they can go to whatever private clown college and diploma mill that exists to cater to these subjects (on their own dime).

You want to cast spells? Go to Hogwarts.
 
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#22
I think it's garbage, however, I believe in free speech.

Its one of the reasons the Regressive Left is able to push it's agenda... The Right believes in freedom of discourse which means allowing Communists the freedom to spread their garbage.
I don’t like the idea of government stepping in this. I don’t understand the logistics but shouldn’t this be a decision made by academia?
 
#24
I don't think Trump or Conservatives would be the ones to do something like that, that seems wildly anti-capitalism/free market.
Agreed, but they could pull government funding for schools that teach "ideologically biased classes" or something. Although that would likely lead to more scientific but still ideologically divisive concepts being threatened, such as climate change.

But if you agree that the government should be able to say "no tax payer money if your school is going to teach that the earth is flat" then the only question is where do we draw the line from there.
 
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#25
One of my big issues with "Free college for all!" is that you have people going to school and getting pointless degrees like this.

Yeah, there's no way I want my tax dollars going towards that. Maybe Hungary can replace these courses with a biology one.
Meanwhile in America kids rake up debt cause no free college for them...
 
#28
Good move. All these gender study things should be relegated to unaccredited university qualifications at best. Just like those phoney Doctor certificates that religious nut jobs like Kent Hovind have.
 
#29
I’m conflicted by this.

On one hand, I truly believe that gender studies departments are a cultural cancer creating moral panics that are eroding politics, discourse, and even truth itself. The only reason they have been allowed to go as far as they have is because they bring in a lot of money from people who otherwise would not qualify to attend university. They provide participation degrees for the participation generation and are, for all intents and purposes, activist factories. While universities do need to be profit-seeking, it should not and cannot be their primary purpose, especially when it is inevitably at the expense of academic integrity.

On the other hand, I do not like governments determining what people can and cannot study. People can study whether the moon is made of cheese for all I care, so long as I am not subsiding it through my taxes. I would also be concerned about other contentious but not necessarily cancerous subjects being caught in the crossfire.

In its current form, gender studies offers nothing of value to society because it is not based on the scientific method and is not subject to real peer review. I think there is something to be learned from studying the evolution of gender roles through the cycle of wartime and peacetime and how they change with respect to technological advancements, e.g. birth control, safe abortion procedures, automation, and increased workplace safety (note: gender roles, not gender itself - that belongs in a biology department). Unfortunately, that is not what gender studies is in its current form, which is akin to a pseudo-religion. Moreover, it is a pseudo-religion that receives state funding in most countries. I hope most of us here can see the problem with that.

All of that said, I don’t know if banning it outright is the best approach given the political tension it will create. I think the best solution would be to incentivise subjects that demonstrably and positively contribute to GDP (e.g. STEM and health) or culture (e.g. fine arts and music) and let gender studies die a natural death. This is the other side of the coin to starving the beast but I don’t have a problem with it given the danger the gender studies beast represents to Western enlightenment values.

I have focused on gender studies because it’s the topic of the article but much of what I have said also applies to the other “studies” subjects.
 
#32
I'm not comfortable with a government telling people what they can/ can't learn.
However I am okay with this if it just means no public sector money is going to such a degree. If you want to waste your life learning garbage, spend your own money.
Far left feminist studies
Academies etc. can give those courses. Government simply won't fund them, much like they don't fund many other types of studies who are deemed "valid" by some people.

The Hungarian government is pandering to its right wing base.
I'd say they properly localized target and they are trying to stop this ideology to hold its place in Hungary. While US centric ideology didn't yet take huge parts of "gender studies" in eastern europe unlike something like sweden i think they doing this as precausion though i don't know specifics.

Like i said before. Real science should be moved into biology departament. At least then you won't have to question if studies they do are real or not because i doubt their peers would aprove studies based on personal accounts or other garbage like that with infamous "privilege one"

If it’s funded by public money than Universities should not be issuing accredations for what is tantamount to a religious activity or hobby club.
I agree but i would love for Hungarian gov to be not selective. I think hungary still has religion in shool paid by tax payer.

I don't think Trump or Conservatives would be the ones to do something like that, that seems wildly anti-capitalism/free market.
You are free to research as much as you want and whatever you want. Government simply won't pay for it.
There is nothing anti-capitalist/freemarket about it. You are not entitled to someone taxes.
 
#33
Who studies gender studies? You are a burden on the economy if you are taking out student debt to do such a thing. Not that I give a give a fuck about university coffers, but come on, you are offering jack shit to the progressive world by studying gender studies. Same with theistic studies. You get no sympathy from me.
 
#34
On the other hand, I do not like governments determining what people can and cannot study.
I assume the government is just saying that they won't pay for it anymore in public universities. If a private organization wants to teach it, I don't think they'll be forbidden from doing so.
I don’t like the idea of government stepping in this.
If the government is paying for it, they have every right to step in.
 
#36
This is like the complete opposite of "small government"…

You are free to research as much as you want and whatever you want. Government simply won't pay for it.
There is nothing anti-capitalist/freemarket about it. You are not entitled to someone taxes.
It kinda is since most of the student loans in your country are private loans, by getting rid of subjects or putting caps on tuition rates you're directly affecting the private loans market are you not?
 
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#37
This is like the complete opposite of "small government"…

It kinda is since most of the student loans in your country are private loans, by getting rid of subjects or putting caps on tuition rates you're directly affecting the private loans market are you not?
There are no student loans in Hungary. Higher education is free as long as you get nice grades and even then you have ample amount of various schools to choose from ignoring the best that will take you.
Secondly even if government will be stopping funding one subject like with all other cases they will stop funding NEW courses meaning that if you are on 1st year there is no issue and you will be able to finish school

At least that is how it is in Poland i don't think Hungary is different though i might be wrong.
 
#39
Kinda related (though is about the US not Hungary)
Education Secretary Betsy DeVos moved Friday to completely eliminate Obama-era regulations that were meant to cut off federal funding to low-performing programs at for-profit schools and other career colleges. The Education Department unveiled a proposal to rescind the “gainful employment” regulation, which was a centerpiece of the Obama administration’s crackdown on for-profit education companies.
The goal of the rule, which took effect in 2015, was to make sure that students who graduate from for-profit schools or other career-oriented programs make enough money to repay their student loans. But the schools, and congressional Republicans, have long criticized the regulation as unfair and overly burdensome.

The department plans to detail program-level outcomes, such as graduates’ median debt and median earnings, for all colleges and universities. Critics say that is inadequate as a way to hold for-profit schools accountable because there aren’t any sanctions for low-performing institutions.

The decision was welcomed by for-profit colleges, who have battled the Education Department over the regulation for nearly a decade.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/devos-low-performing-for-profit-colleges-772302

There are no student loans in Hungary. Higher education is free as long as you get nice grades and even then you have ample amount of various schools to choose from ignoring the best that will take you.
Secondly even if government will be stopping funding one subject like with all other cases they will stop funding NEW courses meaning that if you are on 1st year there is no issue and you will be able to finish school

At least that is how it is in Poland i don't think Hungary is different though i might be wrong.
I was replying to someone talking about Trump doing the same in the US.
 
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#40
What is gender studies exactly?
It's looking at the dynamics of how gender effects society. A simple example, how far does "blue is for boys, pink is for girls" extend, and what does it effect, and is it a rational statement? There's tons of interesting stuff in this subject, even though there is a not insignificant amount of extremism wrapped up in it too

A government banning the subject outright is pretty fucked up, I have to say. In America this actually would be an issue revolving around the first amendment and free speech. In this case the market should decide: if a bunch of people get feminist degrees but can't get a good paying job out of it, the market will naturally close down that degree avenue. The fact that people are getting these degrees, and are making money working in that field, means it's a valid profession to pursue.
 
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#41
Meanwhile in America kids rake up debt cause no free college for them...
If parents to their job and the kid does their job a kid can easily go through college debt free. If they pick an instate college and apply for a million scholarships they can go through :).

So yeah I agree with the above poster that college for all is bad in my opinion.
 
#42
This is like the complete opposite of "small government"…



It kinda is since most of the student loans in your country are private loans, by getting rid of subjects or putting caps on tuition rates you're directly affecting the private loans market are you not?
You don't know much about our system, clearly.
 
#43
If parents to their job and the kid does their job a kid can easily go through college debt free. If they pick an instate college and apply for a million scholarships they can go through :).

So yeah I agree with the above poster that college for all is bad in my opinion.
This isn't true actually. There's not enough scholarships and paying parents to go around. I minimized my loans by working F/T, but I didn't exactly go into college at age 18 either.
 
#44
A government banning the subject outright is pretty fucked up, I have to say. In America this actually would be an issue revolving around the first amendment and free speech. In this case the market should decide: if a bunch of people get feminist degrees but can't get a good paying job out of it, the market will naturally close down that degree avenue. The fact that people are getting these degrees, and are making money working in that field, means it's a valid profession to pursue.
From the way people are describing this proposal, no it wouldn't. The first amendment doesn't gurantee you a government loan to study gender studies.
 
#45
I don’t understand the logistics but shouldn’t this be a decision made by academia?
Not as long as they are funded by tax money which they are in Hungary and where students can study for "free".


If a university declines all public funding and goes all private, with private funding, then go ahead. Teach gender studies all you want. Teach homeopathy and anti-vaxxer stuff and other nonsense too.
But tax money should not fund nonsense subjects.
 
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#46
I am not going to be giving kudos to a future-authoritarian state.
You can look into the future?
The Hungarian government is pandering to its right wing base.
Its literally doing what the people want and why they were elected by a huge majority, just because you dont like what they are doing doesnt mean this is suddenly "pandering" or "problematic" or "toxic".
This arrogant bullshit is always a revelation and reminds me of the usual "when we win elections its progress, when you win elections its a crisis in democracy"
Nope sorry you dont count that much especially not to Hungarians.
 
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#47
This isn't true actually. There's not enough scholarships and paying parents to go around. I minimized my loans by working F/T, but I didn't exactly go into college at age 18 either.
In state tuition cuts the cost of college in half. If a parent is bright they can save for their childs future. With the economy the way it is today they could get a second job to do it too. It ain't rocket science
 
#50
They did not ban it. They just said that tax money will no longer be used to provide free college education in these nonsense subjects.
Reading is hard as Barbie says.
Link provided in the first post does not mention this, though? And this seems like it is partly politically motivated to go after George Soros.