Hungarian govt proposes to abolish gender studies in Hungary

i_am_ben

running_here_and_there
Feb 5, 2008
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#51
You can look into the future?

Its literally doing what the people want and why they were elected by a huge majority, just because you dont like what they are doing doesnt mean this is suddenly "pandering" or "problematic" or "toxic".
This arrogant bullshit is always a revelation and reminds me of the usual "when we win elections its progress, when you win elections its a crisis in democracy"
Nope sorry you dont count that much especially not to Hungarians.
There was nothing factually wrong with my statement.

Sorry I triggered you.
 

Arkage

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2012
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#52
From the way people are describing this proposal, no it wouldn't. The first amendment doesn't gurantee you a government loan to study gender studies.
The first amendment guarantees that the government won't interfere in what constitutes valid speech. This is clearly a politically motivated move, not a rational one, because someone in the government doesn't like all those mean feminists so hey let's ban it. The first amendment doesn't guarantee you a government loan for gender studies, but it certainly doesn't allow for degree discrimination when it picks which degrees get a government loan and which can't. Perkin's loans don't care what your degree is, and this is the fairest, most equal way to do it. The government picking sides in what degrees it would like to fund is clearly discrimination, especially when it's to the point where students won't even have the option of picking that degree, and professors won't be able to expand on the subject since the entire college system is controlled by the government.
 
Jul 7, 2018
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#53
Gender Studies, lol.

I love this Twitter account, which posts up academic papers written by people in the social "sciences": -

https://twitter.com/realpeerreview?lang=en

For example: -

This paper offers specific implications for teaching and learning and brings into conversation ideas from ethnomathematics (including Western mathematics), postcolonial theory, aesthetics, biology, and Indigenous knowledge in order to propose a new vision for practicing mathematics, what I call mathematx.
I'm sure "mathematx" will be replacing mathematics in the very near future.....
 
Jan 12, 2018
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#54
I can't undertand why someone would agree with this. An goverment shouldn't ban things like this.
The Hungarians can do whatever the fuck they want. As long as they aren't mass murdering people, Americans - or anyone else beyond their immediate European neighbors - should lose zero sleep over what happens in Hungary. It's a sovereign nation with its own definition of right versus wrong.
 
Apr 15, 2018
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#55
The first amendment guarantees that the government won't interfere in what constitutes valid speech. This is clearly a politically motivated move, not a rational one, because someone in the government doesn't like all those mean feminists so hey let's ban it. The first amendment doesn't guarantee you a government loan for gender studies, but it certainly doesn't allow for degree discrimination when it picks which degrees get a government loan and which can't. Perkin's loans don't care what your degree is, and this is the fairest, most equal way to do it. The government picking sides in what degrees it would like to fund is clearly discrimination, especially when it's to the point where students won't even have the option of picking that degree, and professors won't be able to expand on the subject since the entire college system is controlled by the government.
The government isn't interfering in speech.

Point to me where in the first amendment you have a legal right to government funds to obtain a specific degree? Perkins and Stafford loans are at the government discretion. They can deny them to you, and it is completely legal.

There is no such thing as "degree discrimination". What a stupid idea

Also, anyone can still obtain that degree. They will just have to pay for it out of pocket. Again, the government isn't blocking anything.
 
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Arkage

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2012
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#56
The government isn't interfering in speech.

Point to me where in the first amendment you have a legal right to government funds to obtain a specific degree? Perkins and Stafford loans are at the government discretion. They can deny them to you, and it is completely legal.

There is no such thing as "degree discrimination". What a stupid idea
There is no constitutional right to obtain any degree. That isn't the point. The point is that both Perkins and Stafford loans have literally nothing to do with what degree you chose, and rightfully, ethically so. The government doesn't exclude particular degrees from this program, which is what you seemingly, and absurdly, want it to do. You apparently want the government to restrict what degrees it funds on the basis of it's partisan politics. OK, then how about during a Democratic controlled government, the government bans loans for degrees related to the fossil fuel industry? Oh, wait, that would also be dumb as fuck. People should be free to choose what degree they want, and the government should give out loans on the basis of economics. If the government starts picking which degrees it supports on an political, ideological basis, both political sides would be rightfully screaming about government oppression of speech in the educational sphere depending upon which party currently ran the government.

Hungary is literally playing a game of degree discrimination. And I agree, it is a really stupid idea, so I don't know why anyone who values educational freedom would keep trying to rationalize it.
 
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Apr 15, 2018
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#57
There is no constitutional right to obtain any degree. That isn't the point. The point is that both Perkins and Stafford loans have literally nothing to do with what degree you chose, and rightfully, ethically so. The government doesn't exclude particular degrees from this program, which is what you seemingly, and absurdly, want it to do. You apparently want the government to restrict what degrees it funds on the basis of it's partisan politics. OK, then how about during a Democratic controlled government, the government bans loans for degrees related to the fossil fuel industry? Oh, wait, that would also be dumb as fuck. People should be free to choose what degree they want, and the government should give out loans on the basis of economics. If the government starts picking which degrees it supports on an political, ideological basis, both political sides would be rightfully screaming about government oppression of speech in the educational sphere depending upon which party currently ran the government.

Hungary is literally playing a game of degree discrimination. And I agree, it is a really stupid idea, so I don't know why anyone who values educational freedom would keep trying to rationalize it.
Have you ever gotten a Perkins or Stafford loan? They aren't checks in the mail. They are sent to accredited schools. By the governments discretion. They don't have to give them out, and legally they absolutely can choose to not give them to some wack out degree.

Government funding is not consumer choice. If you want to obtain a gender studies degree or a "fossil fuels" degree, you are free to choose that but you can't force the government to pay your way.

You are arguing you have a human right to force taxpayers to pay for your garbage degree. You dont. It has nothing to do with "educational freedom"
 

Arkage

Gold Member
Sep 25, 2012
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#58
Have you ever gotten a Perkins or Stafford loan? They aren't checks in the mail. They are sent to accredited schools. By the governments discretion. They don't have to give them out, and legally they absolutely can choose to not give them to some wack out degree.

Government funding is not consumer choice. If you want to obtain a gender studies degree or a "fossil fuels" degree, you are free to choose that but you can't force the government to pay your way.

You are arguing you have a human right to force taxpayers to pay for your garbage degree. You dont. It has nothing to do with "educational freedom"
Define "wack out degree." Since as far as I know, literally every major educational institution in the US has degrees in gender studies, or at a minimum multiple classes on gender studies.

The federal government is subject to all kinds of equality laws. Good luck arguing in court that the federal government can pick and choose what it funds on the basis of partisan politics.

In America, tax payers don't "pay for your degree." The tax payers loan you money, on which you have to pay interest, typically for decades. If anything, you should be happy tax payers are extracting wealth out of those who get a degree in gender studies.
 
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Apr 15, 2018
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#59
Define "wack out degree." Since as far as I know, literally every major educational institution in the US has degrees in gender studies, or at a minimum multiple classes on gender studies.

The federal government is subject to all kinds of equality laws. Good luck arguing in court that the federal government can pick and choose what it funds on the basis of partisan politics.

In America, tax payers don't "pay for your degree." The tax payers loan you money, on which you have to pay interest, typically for decades. If anything, you should be happy tax payers are extracting wealth out of those who get a degree in gender studies.
The same supreme Court that has stated many times the government can amend and revise benefits. The same Constitution that, at no time gurantees you a student loan. The same Constitution that allows a Congress to regulate the details of a federal loan, regulate the debt collector, and the school getting the loan, can't pass requirmentas for a loan? Okay sure. These degrees are not equal.

Good luck arguing the government has to give you money under the rules of the first amendment. Partisan politics is irrelevant in this context. We are arguing government funds, not the context of worthless gender study books.

And they are worthless. Much like the degree. Gender studies demand substantial less market value than STEM degrees.
 
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Likes: DeepEnigma
May 17, 2012
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#60
Some of these fields of study are just indoctrination sessions. I am sure there are some practical uses for some of it but when a seeming majority of it is just activism gone wild there should be some checks and balances at the very least have the curriculum audited by a 3rd party. Some of the textbooks are just full of conspiracy theories that would make Alex Jones blush. Imagine a geography professor teaching flat earth theory with no intervention for decades. That is basically what you have here. I have seen assignments that force you to use a few biased insular sources and strictly tells you not to cite any government statistics. No wonder people are coming out of that unable to even form an opinion for themselves.
 
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matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#62
The first amendment guarantees that the government won't interfere in what constitutes valid speech. This is clearly a politically motivated move, not a rational one, because someone in the government doesn't like all those mean feminists so hey let's ban it. The first amendment doesn't guarantee you a government loan for gender studies, but it certainly doesn't allow for degree discrimination when it picks which degrees get a government loan and which can't. Perkin's loans don't care what your degree is, and this is the fairest, most equal way to do it. The government picking sides in what degrees it would like to fund is clearly discrimination, especially when it's to the point where students won't even have the option of picking that degree, and professors won't be able to expand on the subject since the entire college system is controlled by the government.
This isn’t a first amendment issue.
 

matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#64
There is no constitutional right to obtain any degree. That isn't the point. The point is that both Perkins and Stafford loans have literally nothing to do with what degree you chose, and rightfully, ethically so. The government doesn't exclude particular degrees from this program, which is what you seemingly, and absurdly, want it to do. You apparently want the government to restrict what degrees it funds on the basis of it's partisan politics. OK, then how about during a Democratic controlled government, the government bans loans for degrees related to the fossil fuel industry? Oh, wait, that would also be dumb as fuck. People should be free to choose what degree they want, and the government should give out loans on the basis of economics. If the government starts picking which degrees it supports on an political, ideological basis, both political sides would be rightfully screaming about government oppression of speech in the educational sphere depending upon which party currently ran the government.

Hungary is literally playing a game of degree discrimination. And I agree, it is a really stupid idea, so I don't know why anyone who values educational freedom would keep trying to rationalize it.
Not all degrees are equal. Moreover, having a rule that all degrees must be eligible for government funding indirectly hands control of government spending over to the universities. Where’s the quality control in that process?
 
Likes: DeepEnigma
May 23, 2016
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#65
There is no such thing as "degree discrimination". What a stupid idea
There is degree discrimination, but that isn't inherently a bad thing!

Some things have more value than others, therefore people discriminate against them. If there's a piece of shit on the floor, and a piece of gold, I'm going to discriminate and choose to bend down and pick up the gold.
It's like that with humanities degrees and STEM degrees, and rightly so. The project proposal that a humanities grad comes up with is likely to have minimal impact compared to someone with a PhD in Medicine.
 

matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#66
There is degree discrimination, but that isn't inherently a bad thing!

Some things have more value than others, therefore people discriminate against them. If there's a piece of shit on the floor, and a piece of gold, I'm going to discriminate and choose to bend down and pick up the gold.
It's like that with humanities degrees and STEM degrees, and rightly so. The project proposal that a humanities grad comes up with is likely to have minimal impact compared to someone with a PhD in Medicine.
If someone wants to pick up the turd and start smearing it on the wall and proclaiming it the word of god, that’s fine, but I’m going to lock the door on them, throw away the key, and call it an insane asylum.
 
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May 23, 2016
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#67
If someone wants to pick up the turd and start smearing it on the wall and proclaiming it the word of god, that’s fine, but I’m going to lock the door on them, throw away the key, and call it an insane asylum.
Exactly, it's like comparing a paper on why fat people are upset by force fed geese to a paper on the mechanisms of diabetes in obesity.
One can potentially have a huge economic and quality of life impact, the other is useful for toilet paper. That's discrimination, but good discrimination!
 
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sahlberg

Gold Member
Oct 27, 2017
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#68
Not all degrees are equal. Moreover, having a rule that all degrees must be eligible for government funding indirectly hands control of government spending over to the universities. Where’s the quality control in that process?
(I agree with you, just thought this would be a good place to reiterate my thoughts)

Many/most countries in europe have universities funded completely by tax money.
Studying at a university is free, as long as your grades are high enough to qualify to enroll, and as long as you can maintain a certain level of passing grades.

It is all paid for by tax money.

As it is publicly funded and these countries see this as a service to the students as well as to the job market. The tax money is both used to ensure there are educated citizens but also
that there are skilled individuals to work in industry/...//...

There is always a finite amount of funding available and a finite number of students that can be given free tuition.


Given these parameters it is perfectly reasonable that the government will continusly tweak the number of slots they pay for via tax money based on the over all demand in the work force for such degrees.

For things like Astrology, Anti-Vaccination Medicine and Gender Studies. It turns out that there is no demand in the work force for people with such degrees.
Therefore it makes very much sense to stop using tax money to pay people to get a free degree in these subjects. There is no benefit for society to spend tax money on this
and thus tax money should be re-directed to other places where the moneies might come to better use.


TLDR; The quality control is simple. How many students from program YZ can/can not get a job in the field of their degree? All countries in Europe use this metric to decide which programs should be increased, decreased, or like in this case cancelled. All the time. To calibrate that the universities produce the skills that the work force and society needs.
 
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matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#69
(I agree with you, just thought this would be a good place to reiterate my thoughts)

Many/most countries in europe have universities funded completely by tax money.
Studying at a university is free, as long as your grades are high enough to qualify to enroll, and as long as you can maintain a certain level of passing grades.

It is all paid for by tax money.

As it is publicly funded and these countries see this as a service to the students as well as to the job market. The tax money is both used to ensure there are educated citizens but also
that there are skilled individuals to work in industry/...//...

There is always a finite amount of funding available and a finite number of students that can be given free tuition.


Given these parameters it is perfectly reasonable that the government will continusly tweak the number of slots they pay for via tax money based on the over all demand in the work force for such degrees.

For things like Astrology, Anti-Vaccination Medicine and Gender Studies. It turns out that there is no demand in the work force for people with such degrees.
Therefore it makes very much sense to stop using tax money to pay people to get a free degree in these subjects. There is no benefit for society to spend tax money on this
and thus tax money should be re-directed to other places where the moneies might come to better use.


TLDR; The quality control is simple. How many students from program YZ can/can not get a job in the field of their degree? All countries in Europe use this metric to decide which programs should be increased, decreased, or like in this case cancelled. All the time. To calibrate that the universities produce the skills that the work force and society needs.
I would be interested to know where all these gender studies graduates have ended up. I sense that an undesirable amount are in government funded commissions and are influencing policy. Some of the “statistics” on campus rape culture that I’ve seen from the Australian Human Rights Commission could only have been produced by a gender studies graduate. 51% of females (I’m going out of my way to use this word more often 😈) have been sexually harassed/assaulted? Give me a break. Scary thing is, the general population hears that and just believes it because why else would the Ministry of Truth, I mean AHRC, lie? That leads to more funding directed to the AHRC to hire more gender studies graduates to do more unscientific studies.
 
Likes: DeepEnigma
Nov 18, 2012
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#70
I'm confused, in one part of the article it says it's being abolished and no one can attain a degree it in the future ever (if the bill goes through) and in another part, it says it only affects two state-run universities. Does that just mean it's being defunded or?

If they're making learning about something (even bullshit) illegal then that clearly goes against freedom of speech and is not okey, if they're saying that the government won't fund those courses or award degrees in it than that makes a lot more sense and I'm for it.
 

matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#72
I'm confused, in one part of the article it says it's being abolished and no one can attain a degree it in the future ever (if the bill goes through) and in another part, it says it only affects two state-run universities. Does that just mean it's being defunded or?

If they're making learning about something (even bullshit) illegal then that clearly goes against freedom of speech and is not okey, if they're saying that the government won't fund those courses or award degrees in it than that makes a lot more sense and I'm for it.
I think it’s just removing government funding, not banning it outright.
 
Likes: DeepEnigma
May 23, 2016
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#73
TLDR; The quality control is simple. How many students from program YZ can/can not get a job in the field of their degree? All countries in Europe use this metric to decide which programs should be increased, decreased, or like in this case cancelled. All the time. To calibrate that the universities produce the skills that the work force and society needs.
It's not just the degrees, it's the research. My salary and work is all funded by French and German tax payers. I'm doing something that can have a massive economic impact, and directly influence medical practitioners' behaviour if successful.

The people who write about how it feels to be an academic (how masturbatory can one possibly get?), or why dance can be interpreted 1000 different ways are paid the same (or more) from tax payer money. Yet it will have literally 0 economic or public health benefit.

(Granted humanities "research" costs a fraction of medical research, my weekly consumables budget is probably similar to a whole year in humanities.)
 
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sahlberg

Gold Member
Oct 27, 2017
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#74
I would be interested to know where all these gender studies graduates have ended up. I sense that an undesirable amount are in government funded commissions and are influencing policy. Some of the “statistics” on campus rape culture that I’ve seen from the Australian Human Rights Commission could only have been produced by a gender studies graduate. 51% of females (I’m going out of my way to use this word more often 😈) have been sexually harassed/assaulted? Give me a break. Scary thing is, the general population hears that and just believes it because why else would the Ministry of Truth, I mean AHRC, lie? That leads to more funding directed to the AHRC to hire more gender studies graduates to do more unscientific studies.
I don't think government programs can take all of them. They are just too many.
My best guess would be, Uber, McDonalds (or other minimum wage service industry) or maybe writing for a web-magazine/journal (these folks make so little money you can not imagine.).
They have no marketable skills that anyone in private industry needs.
 
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matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#75
I don't think government programs can take all of them. They are just too many.
My best guess would be, Uber, McDonalds (or other minimum wage service industry) or maybe writing for a web-magazine/journal (these folks make so little money you can not imagine.).
I hope you’re right, but I’m not convinced. Something has fundamentally changed in our culture in the last few years and it stinks of gender studies.
 
May 8, 2017
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#76
Good. We abolished communism almost 30 years ago but these fuckers always find a way to come back, either to power or, when they can't do that to indoctrinate young people with their ideas.
 
Sep 11, 2007
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#77
Gender Studies, lol.

I love this Twitter account, which posts up academic papers written by people in the social "sciences": -

I remember like a year ago, to prove a point, someone got a social science journal to publish what amounted to an elaborate troll paper. The writer was not an academic but talked in circles and used a lot of catch phrases and it seemed really insane, but it was published. "Penises are a social construct" https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/05/1...social-construct-worsens-climate-change-11302

My last psychology professor, who was extremely left wing, admitted to the class the field of psychology has a problem with reproducibility. When something like half of the experimental research published in academic psychology journals gets replicated by other researchers, the outcome or conclusions are different. Reproducibility is one of the requirements of the scientific method. So half of all professionally conducted psychology research is unscientific. That's probably the gold standard for social science. I would guess 90% of gender studies is biased opinion masquerading as "objective truth".
 
Nov 23, 2011
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#78
Personally I don't really understand why gender studies exists. What's the job you're supposed to do with that degree? If this was a cost-saving measure, I'd agree with it. But at this point everyone knows Hungary is controlled by right-wing extremists right now and it's obvious what really is the case: they want to suppress left-wing wrong-think.

It's a rather ironic case, really. We keep hearing from conservatives in America that the left is trying to get rid of right-wing thought and yet there is no real proof of that happening. But in Hungary, where the extreme right is in control, they are quite happy to get rid of leftist wrong-think.

The left is not actually suppressing right-wing thought no matter what conservatives claim they do, but the right is very happy to suppress any thought they don't agree with!
 
Aug 17, 2012
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#79
I think i need to move to Hungary. Lastly they are earning a lot of good boi points in my eyes.

Do whatever you need to cut down the fifth column, cause studies like these are nothing more than a breeding place for the crazies.

But in Hungary, where the extreme right is in control, they are quite happy to get rid of leftist wrong-think.

The left is not actually suppressing right-wing thought no matter what conservatives claim they do, but the right is very happy to suppress any thought they don't agree with!
I think you are mixing Fidesz with Jobbik, where the real extreme right wing party is not ruling the country. Fidesz is more of a traditional catholic-conservative party mixed eith patriotism, NOT extreme right. But yeah, generalization is hip now...

And i kindly won't comment on the part where the left doesn't try suppressing the conservative point of view.
 
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May 8, 2017
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#81
Personally I don't really understand why gender studies exists. What's the job you're supposed to do with that degree? If this was a cost-saving measure, I'd agree with it. But at this point everyone knows Hungary is controlled by right-wing extremists right now and it's obvious what really is the case: they want to suppress left-wing wrong-think.

It's a rather ironic case, really. We keep hearing from conservatives in America that the left is trying to get rid of right-wing thought and yet there is no real proof of that happening. But in Hungary, where the extreme right is in control, they are quite happy to get rid of leftist wrong-think.

The left is not actually suppressing right-wing thought no matter what conservatives claim they do, but the right is very happy to suppress any thought they don't agree with!
I think i need to move to Hungary. Lastly they are earning a lot of good boi points in my eyes.

Do whatever you need to cut down the fifth column, cause studies like these are nothing more than a breeding place for the crazies.



I think you are mixing Fidesz with Jobbik, where the real extreme right wing party is not ruling the country. Fidesz is more of a traditional catholic-conservative party mixed eith patriotism, NOT extreme right. But yeah, generalization is hip now...

And i kindly won't comment on the part where the left doesn't try suppressing the conservative point of view.
Yeah we have a middle-right christian conservative government.

Lol at it being extreme right. We've had 40 years of communism right after nazi rule. After being part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. After being invaded by the turks, before defending the whole of western Europe from them for decades.

We know what extremism like, and we also know what it's like to live under islam rule.

But we always survived because we've always had a fight, common sense and the utmost desire for freedom.
 
Jan 14, 2018
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#82
If it's just the public universities (and it's legal to implement restrictions on public university programs) and it just is in regards to programs, then I don't see a problem with it. You don't need a program of gender study to study gender as a phenomenon. They would likely do better by not being in a too specialized cross-discipline program like gender studies or footing it on their own bill. A lot of fields have been stripped down a lot in terms of programs and slots in Norway, due to less demand, while you have desperation in regards to getting enough doctors, engineers and such.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#83
It’s just economics. Nothing political. When they initially funded this project they were only paying to study two genders. After working hard they have discovered 64 more genders, with a new one a month showing up. They simply can not afford to study them all any longer.
 

matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#84
It’s just economics. Nothing political. When they initially funded this project they were only paying to study two genders. After working hard they have discovered 64 more genders, with a new one a month showing up. They simply can not afford to study them all any longer.
Think of all the genders we haven't discovered yet!
 
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Apr 15, 2018
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#85
I would be interested to know where all these gender studies graduates have ended up. I sense that an undesirable amount are in government funded commissions and are influencing policy. Some of the “statistics” on campus rape culture that I’ve seen from the Australian Human Rights Commission could only have been produced by a gender studies graduate. 51% of females (I’m going out of my way to use this word more often 😈) have been sexually harassed/assaulted? Give me a break. Scary thing is, the general population hears that and just believes it because why else would the Ministry of Truth, I mean AHRC, lie? That leads to more funding directed to the AHRC to hire more gender studies graduates to do more unscientific studies.
Vice, Vox,dailydot, Mic, Mashable, BuzzFeed,

Pick any left wing blogging platform. A lot of "journalists", columnists and bloggers don't have a degree in journalism any longer, but in gender studies. You can go to platforms like medium and see literally thousands of gender study kids try to build a writing portfolio microbligging their ideology.

Also HR department at major corporations. Silicon Valley is full of HR and "consultants" who try directing corporate workrooms to be more progressive, "inclusive" or whatever the buzzword of the year is.

Right now, there has been increasing talk that tech companies need to hire more "humanities" and gender studies graduates to work in tech companies, to make software more empathetic or something. Expect to hear that a lot more in 2019.
 

matt404au

Gold Member
Apr 25, 2009
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#86
Vice, Vox,dailydot, Mic, Mashable, BuzzFeed,

Pick any left wing blogging platform. A lot of "journalists", columnists and bloggers don't have a degree in journalism any longer, but in gender studies. You can go to platforms like medium and see literally thousands of gender study kids try to build a writing portfolio microbligging their ideology.

Also HR department at major corporations. Silicon Valley is full of HR and "consultants" who try directing corporate workrooms to be more progressive, "inclusive" or whatever the buzzword of the year is.

Right now, there has been increasing talk that tech companies need to hire more "humanities" and gender studies graduates to work in tech companies, to make software more empathetic or something. Expect to hear that a lot more in 2019.
Like your contribution, hate the content :messenger_weary:
 
Oct 24, 2017
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#89
Dropping hot takes like this just makes you sound like a preteen. Try having conversations with a larger variety of people of different beliefs and see what you can learn.
You can talk to me about Religion as much as you want but to convince me that Religion is not made up and that we have to abandon all our scientific research for the sake of it will not work. This is really trying to use arguments why the easter bunny exist. We can certainly talk about the influence Religion had through the centuries than we can talk.
 
Jan 27, 2018
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#90
You can talk to me about Religion as much as you want but to convince me that Religion is not made up and that we have to abandon all our scientific research for the sake of it will not work. This is really trying to use arguments why the easter bunny exist.
This is trite. There are parts of religion as subject to verification as anything else, but you won't be bothered to investigate them. At least stop pretending as if you've "solved" this because you're content with willful ignorance.
 
Oct 24, 2017
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#91
This is trite. There are parts of religion as subject to verification as anything else, but you won't be bothered to investigate them. At least stop pretending as if you've "solved" this because you're content with willful ignorance.
Name the. Tell me. I am always willing to learn but I also need evidence which would be hard to get I imagine.
 
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#92
Name them. Tell me.
Look into why anyone believes a man really rose from the dead in first-century Palestine, as a matter of historical fact. If you actually find the evidence wanting after that, so be it.

I don't want to derail any further though, I'm already feeling guilty about it.
 
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#93
Look into why anyone believes a man really rose from the dead in first-century Palestine, as a matter of historical fact. If you actually find the evidence wanting after that, so be it.
Scientology started as crazy Sci-fi writer wrote some garbage 50 years ago. This is also historical fact but that doesn't validate religion nor it prove anything about religion.

Animalists believers or essences (like fire) have way more credible proof than any modern faith which are all based on articles of mind rather than actual events or objects.

Almost as if our understanding of world got better people had to come up with a way to make a faith that is not invalidated by any fact. What is the most subjective thing ? feelings !. Like in bad anime, shinjiro now believes he is special and god cares about him and what he does daily.
 
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#94
Animalists believers or essences (like fire) have way more credible proof than any modern faith which are all based on articles of mind rather than actual events or objects.
You’ve already assumed only physical things can exist, which is quite a hurdle for yourself. Do you value truth? Do you think you have a mind capable of ascertaining it? You’ll find neither “truth” nor “mind” in the world of matter.

Give the metaphysical a chance, it will solve a lot of thorny issues for you as a strict materialist. :)

[I can’t keep derailing this thread; anyone who wants to can message me privately.]
 
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#95
Name the. Tell me. I am always willing to learn but I also need evidence which would be hard to get I imagine.
Scientology started as crazy Sci-fi writer wrote some garbage 50 years ago. This is also historical fact but that doesn't validate religion nor it prove anything about religion.

Animalists believers or essences (like fire) have way more credible proof than any modern faith which are all based on articles of mind rather than actual events or objects.

Almost as if our understanding of world got better people had to come up with a way to make a faith that is not invalidated by any fact. What is the most subjective thing ? feelings !. Like in bad anime, shinjiro now believes he is special and god cares about him and what he does daily.
Even if just from a curious historical perspective, I would recommend learning about the history of religion and how it has positively shaped our societies. It's easy in today's environment to write it all off with a sneer, but at a certain point you have to be willfully discarding large chunks of history in order to maintain the mindset that "all religion is bad; it's all brainwashing; it merely leads the sheep to the slaughter". One religion in particular -- Christianity -- was literally the bridge from antiquity to the modern Western mindset. If you traced your current notions of justice, charity, common goodwill toward fellow humans, cultural tastes and manners, work ethic, etc. it would likely find its root in Christianity at some point in the past. Many of history's greatest thinkers were religious.

Beyond that, consider what C.G. Jung and Arthur Koestler wrote on the topic of phenomenology and supernatural occurrences in Synchronicity and Roots of Coincidence.
 
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#96
Even if just from a curious historical perspective, I would recommend learning about the history of religion and how it has positively shaped our societies. It's easy in today's environment to write it all off with a sneer, but at a certain point you have to be willfully discarding large chunks of history in order to maintain the mindset that "all religion is bad; it's all brainwashing; it merely leads the sheep to the slaughter". One religion in particular -- Christianity -- was literally the bridge from antiquity to the modern Western mindset. If you traced your current notions of justice, charity, common goodwill toward fellow humans, cultural tastes and manners, work ethic, etc. it would likely find its root in Christianity at some point in the past. Many of history's greatest thinkers were religious.

Beyond that, consider what C.G. Jung and Arthur Koestler wrote on the topic of phenomenology and supernatural occurrences in Synchronicity and Roots of Coincidence.
I am not dissmissing the positive effects on our society that Religion had but when we talk about this than we also should talk about the bad influence and what is happening now etc.
But this was not even what it was about. It was about accepting Religion as something true and not that it was invented by mankind. I am very open about discussing the rest.
 
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#97
I am not dissmissing the positive effects on our society that Religion had but when we talk about this than we also should talk about the bad influence and what is happening now etc.
But this was not even what it was about. It was about accepting Religion as something true and not that it was invented by mankind. I am very open about discussing the rest.
What I am responding to mainly is this:

We still have religion you can study and this is also made up bullshit.
So all I'm saying is that -- instead of writing it off as "made up bullshit" -- the study of religion may have other utilities.

Utilities such as understanding our shared cultural heritage, understanding the roots of modern philosophy and the modern scientific method (yes, both have healthy roots in religion), our current code of ethics, the great many debates and court-cases and literature and songs and pieces of art that refer to religious sentiment or imagery.

Or, beyond those useful areas of knowledge, religion can help us understand spirituality and the origins of human consciousness. It may even provide specific answers to those questions.

I am deeply religious myself, but I can completely divorce the argument in favor of "religion in schools" from everything save academic value and still give a convincing case as to why it should be studied.
 

Arkage

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#98
This isn’t a first amendment issue.
It might be if the university is publicly funded. For example, I believe there are arguments that if a university denies a speaker that students have requested, that university may be breaching the first amendment since government funding is going towards silencing particular voices that the public body (student body in this case) requested. The government is supposed to be staying out of the business of public forum moderation.

The same supreme Court that has stated many times the government can amend and revise benefits. The same Constitution that, at no time gurantees you a student loan. The same Constitution that allows a Congress to regulate the details of a federal loan, regulate the debt collector, and the school getting the loan, can't pass requirmentas for a loan? Okay sure. These degrees are not equal.

Good luck arguing the government has to give you money under the rules of the first amendment. Partisan politics is irrelevant in this context. We are arguing government funds, not the context of worthless gender study books.

And they are worthless. Much like the degree. Gender studies demand substantial less market value than STEM degrees.
You can't amend or revise on the basis of political affiliation, especially if colleges were funded on a federal level as is the case in Hungary, turning professors into federal employees.

For federal government employees, the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA) provides some protection against discrimination on the basis of political affiliation. That statute requires that “All employees and applicants for employment should receive fair and equitable treatment in all aspects of personnel management without regard to political affiliation . . . and with proper regard for their privacy and constitutional rights.” 5 U.S.C. § 2301(b)(2). Employees are further protected “against arbitrary action, personal favoritism, or coercion for partisan political purposes[.]” 5 U.S.C. § 2301(b)(8)(A).
Killing off any well-established, highly credentialed degree purely due to partisan politics is the very definition of "arbitrary action" and in any case a horrible idea, likely illegal in the US if taken to court.
 
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sahlberg

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#99
It might be if the university is publicly funded.
It is not. First of all this is Hungary, not US, they do not have a "first amendment" to start with.
Second, their universieties are fully publicly funded with tax money.
Education and university is free for all students, fully tax funded.

As such, the government need to ensure that tax money are used to produce and deliver education in topics where the students can get a job and can contribute to society
after they finish their studies.
As for Gender Studies, there is no demand for these degrees in society, there are no jobs.
Tax money are wasted if they are spent on it.

Analog, they do not spend tax money for providing free university degrees in Astrology, Homeopaty, Anti-Vaxxer Medicine either. As they should not.


If you use your own money, go ahead and spend it on studying whetever you want. Just don't ask people to pay tax money to fund this nonsense.
 

Arkage

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As for Gender Studies, there is no demand for these degrees in society, there are no jobs. Tax money are wasted if they are spent on it.

Analog, they do not spend tax money for providing free university degrees in Astrology, Homeopaty, Anti-Vaxxer Medicine either. As they should not.
Nearly all accredited US colleges, including all Ivy League colleges, offer gender studies degrees, many up to the doctorate level. All of them do not offer Astrology, homeopathy, or anti-vaxxer medicine degrees.

If your metric is societal demand, we better kill off degrees in Photography, Art, Radio/Tv, Anthropology, Graphic Design, Paralegal Studies, Art History, Music, Exercise Science and Religious studies, philosophy, and a whole bunch of other stuff before we kill off gender studies, since they're rated the worst as far as economic benefits! https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow...e-majors-for-your-career-2017-2018/index.html

Oddly enough, every "worst degrees" list I looked at on the front page google results didn't list gender or women's studies! In fact, that stats that I did find on gender studies makes me think it's pretty comparable to every other degree you can get. It almost as if you're making up false information due to your clearly overwhelming partisan bias.
 
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