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I actually prefer Spider-Man (PS5) at 30fps.

Audiophile

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I didn't read your post or justification. I just came here to say...

Take it back.
Short version: lower framerates in all visual mediums elicit a different emotional response and sense of momentum / I prefer 60fps for most things too, but in regards to spidey I personally prefer 30fps for these reasons and am willing to make the trade off in responsiveness / 60fps options should still be there where possible for those who prefer it, like yourself.
 
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Warnen

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Delco Airsoft

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"30fps feels more grand"

This is literally dumbfounding

LOL THIS FEELS WORSE, I LIKE IT MORE
30fps only feels worse if you play a game that's 60fps right before it. But if you watch a movie at 24fps and go to play a game. You don't notice the choppyness. At least my brain works that way.
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

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Thanks for the first bit.

However, in regards to the second bit, it does make sense: movies and television -- while different mediums -- have shown that people have a very different emotional responses to different framerates. High framerates make things more realistic, flaws stand out and things appear more mundane. With lower framerates it acts as a cinematic veil of sorts, things appear more fantastical, your brain has to fill in the gaps, it has trade offs but to say we don't respond differently to vastly different framerates is categorically untrue.

As for the latter, I've just stated clearly in my post I prefer 60fps for most games and that I simply hope a 30fps option is in place for games where it is fitting; particularly re-releases.
I can understand that. Even if I fail to see why, you're right, it's none of my business. Sorry about my second sentence. I'll try to be more respectful in the future.
 

SafeOrAlone

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I'm really looking forward to trying the 60 frames + Ray Tracing option. Someone provide empathy if I'm in for disappointment, please.
 
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Delco Airsoft

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I've recently played a lot of 60fps titles on my PS5/XSX and I was afraid of going back to 30fps, especially so on an OLED TV. I know I've enjoyed many 30fps games on my PS4 Pro, even though I own a $3000 PC.
So I've tried to get accustomed to it by playing Spiderman MM and ... it worked! I was so happy, that means I can still appreciate 30fps. I'm ready for Ratchet and Clank at max. fidelity now.

For the people who can only function at 60fps, I hope you never go above that (120/144fps), because there's no going back either.
I'm personally happy I can deal with anything >= 30fps.
Just don't switch back and forth between the two frame rates too often and you won't really notice. Just try watching a movie, tv show or youtube video before playing a 30fps game and your brain should adjust without you even noticing.
 
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GreatnessRD

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Short version: lower framerates in all visual mediums elicit a different emotional response and sense of momentum / I prefer 60fps for most things too, but in regards to spidey I personally prefer 30fps for these reasons and am willing to make the trade off in responsiveness / 60fps options should still be there where possible for those who prefer it, like yourself.
I said take it back, dammit!

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Wonko_C

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TBH sometimes when I want to handle higher settings on my PC I lock the games to 30fps. It looks cool (and somehow the juddery motion of 30fps has its weird charm sometimes) but after a few minutes I just go back to medium@60fps.
 
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OmegaSupreme

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"Time to die" as your avatar said. 60fps is better. Objectively so. Now if you had said you liked the higher resolution and rt effects that going down to 30 gives you then it would be a different story.
 
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Dibils2k

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i played it on 30fps RT mode anyway, but didnt have a 60fps RT option early on

might still have opted on 30fps mode cause it looked so much sharper and RT was of better quality and i have no issue playing SM in 30fps, as i did it on PS4
 

Audiophile

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I can understand that. Even if I fail to see why, you're right, it's none of my business. Sorry about my second sentence. I'll try to be more respectful in the future.
Oh, no worries, didn't mean to be antagonistic myself. Didn't take offense or anything...

Perhaps this clip is a good example of the difference, albeit in a different medium. Here's a clip of Gemini Man, a movie shot at 120fps and played back at 60fps. Nearly all movies are normally shot at 24fps (don't mean to patronise if you know this already): LINK

While the image is super clean and the framerate is smooth; it doesn't "feel" cinematic or anything like a movie which not particularly a bad thing if that's what you're going for.. But in this context, It feels too real and my emotional response to it is one of indifference and mundanity. Whereas at 24fps, my response would be very different (even if the movie or scene isn't great to begin with). Now, you may be one of the few who prefer the higher frame rate in this regard; and that's fine. But I'd be very surprised if it didn't elicit a different response vs 24fps like it seems to in most people. Also, in-frame motion blur can convey a greater sense of weight.

Of course, games are different but in a game that takes on a cinematic or grand manner, all I'm saying is I'm personal happy to prioritise those traits over responsiveness.
 
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Kuranghi

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Yes 30fps feels great in Spiderman 2018 & MM I agree, I consider it worth it to get the higher resolution and RT. 60fps feels awesome but I don't care for it if I lose too much IQ.

Many modern games have an art style thats meant to be seen at 4K, whether they have a really detailed art style like Jedi: Fallen Order or a simpler one like The Pathless, on the former you lose all the texture detail (Because you need TAA to counter the massive amount of aliasing even at 4K, but even without TAA at 1440p too much is lost imo) unless you are at 4K and the latter has a lot of tiny geometric detail thats lost when you play in 60fps mode.

Its sort of a reverse version of SNES games needing to be seen on a CRT or with a filter making it look like it does on a CRT to truly see what the devs made. Many games are fine at 1080p or 1440p but specifically the two I listed I found transformed visually when dropping to 30fps and going to 4K.

On PC, with RTSS, you can make 30fps feel as responsive as 60fps with a shitty in-game v-sync implement (ie how many implements are), its v-sync that adds so much of the input lag that makes it feel unresponsive compared to 60fps.

Bearing in mind I'm playing on a 65" display, thats 8' from my face. You obviously won't see nearly as big a difference if your screen is smaller and further away, or if its not even 4K.
 
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aclar00

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Everyone has become a 60 FPS elitist all of a sudden when console gamers have been dealing with sub 30 fps and horrid framepacing since ages, quite surprising honestly

Its funny, because as a kid/young teen i loved when games like Devil May Cry or Onimusha slowed down as i was swinging a sword in the middle of a fight. Made it more epic....wasnt until years later i learned about frameraye drops.
 
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tommib

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At the end of the day, frame rates mean shit for the quality of a game. A few industry game changers below:

Ocarina of Time: 20/17 fps
Bloodborne: 30 fps
RE4: 30 fps
Breath of the Wild: 30 fps
Halo: CE: 30 fps
Shadow of the Collossus: 30/20 fps

Digital Foundry has turned us all into fps autistic assholes. Do 60 fps feel better? Sure. But it ends there.
 
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decisions

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I felt this way about Demon's Souls on PS5. It is my prediction that as games approach photorealistic fidelity, games that are not very fast-paced will be preferred to be played at lower frame rates. Demons's Souls at 30fps to me just felt right. The game was so photorealistic at times that playing it in 60fps gave me the feeling of watching a film in 60fps. It simply didn't look right and I found it very distracting - I had never felt this way about a game before, but then again I have never played a game with such high visual fidelity at 60fps. Also, while the game is challenging, it is not very fast-paced, so the drop off in responsiveness was easy to get used to after just a few minutes of playing at 30.

Of course, people should always be given the option.
 
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I find that playing Spider-Man at any "frame rate" is for peasants. What I do is commission a poet, typically a Nobel Laureate, to take in the scene of the game in the next room. The process can take minutes or hours, it hardly matters. Frankly, it is up to her muse to help her find the truth of the game. Once she has captured the game's soul in her heart she consults with the rather modest chamber orchestra I retain on staff to help set the ambiance. I am classically trained, and sit in with them often so they know me quite well musically and otherwise. In the case of Spider-Man they went with a tasteful arrangement of the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man 3 soundtrack. Perfection.

The poet then, to the backing of my orchestra, describes the game to me as only she can with the spoken word. I take my time with it, close my eyes, take it all in, and then, only then do I feel the essence of the game. I relish the truth of it, the understanding. I continue to savor the game in my mind, perhaps snacking on a truffle or enjoying a wine of fine vintage, for a time. At this point I am master of the game and relay instructions to the esports professional I have manning the inputs of said game. After my will is projected through him, we rinse and repeat, the poet takes it all in once again.

But I guess I am dealing with degenerates who never knew the joy of listening to Maya Angelou describe Donkey Kong recovering a bunch of bananas in his resplendent red tie from King K. Rool, or as she called him, "The Croc Most Foul." "Rage rage against the dying of the jungle!", she whispered to me. My voice trembled back, " jump over the pit to the right... this is my will."

How I miss my sweet Maya....

Fuck outta here with this 30/60 fps bullshit.
 
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hyperbertha

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I agree with OP. 30 fps shines most in games like bloodborne where atmoshhere is everything. Couldn't imagine playing that with the soap opera feeling 60 fps always give.
 
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Thanks for the first bit.

However, in regards to the second bit, it does make sense: movies and television -- while different mediums -- have shown that people have a very different emotional responses to different framerates. High framerates make things more realistic, flaws stand out and things appear more mundane. With lower framerates it acts as a cinematic veil of sorts, things appear more fantastical, your brain has to fill in the gaps, it has trade offs but to say we don't respond differently to vastly different framerates is categorically untrue.

As for the latter, I've just stated clearly in my post I prefer 60fps for most games and that I simply hope a 30fps option is in place for games where it is fitting; particularly re-releases.
You could also argue that in the case of movies, it's more immersive because it's almost like you're watching a dream, vs just looking out your window. When movies have high frame rates, the visuals break down, you see every flaw and even the costumes and set pieces can look fake and it feels like you're watching a play or "behind the scenes" footage.

I feel the same way about video games. When a game is trying to look like a cinematic movie with set pieces and all of that, the additional weight the visuals have just makes things look spectacular and not video-gamey. At high frame rates, I'm constantly reminded that I'm playing a video game and it feels too fast and twitchy when it should have some weight to the animations and stuff.

It's a very hard thing to put into words, but I think frame rate matters in how you want your video game to be viewed and felt.

For Call of Duty, sports, racing and fast twitchy games like Returnal, yeah 60fps is desired, but if you're playing Uncharted, Tomb Raider, The Last of Us, The Order 1886, Ratchet and Clank.... etc, the studio is actually going for that filmic look. Why do you think they put chromatic aberration, motion blur, FILM GRAIN, water splashing onto the lens and other camera effects into their games? It's because they don't want it to LOOK like a video game and I shouldn't feel like I'm at the arcade.

One last thing. Whenever I'm playing a game at 60fps, I feel like the system isn't working hard enough. I feel like the game isn't complicated enough and I feel like it could've looked better. For example, playing TLOU1 on PS3 was like... how did they get this game to run on this machine, this is amazing. It looks so good! What a feat! Then playing it on PS4 with higher quality assets and 60fps, I thought to myself, wow these graphics kinda suck and the PS4 barely broke a sweat.

I wanna see the PS5 brought TO IT'S KNEES, begging for some more horsepower. That's how hard I want games to push the system instead of spending a bunch of resources on trying to make the frame rate higher.
 

Audiophile

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"Time to die" as your avatar said. 60fps is better. Objectively so. Now if you had said you liked the higher resolution and rt effects that going down to 30 gives you then it would be a different story.

CD is objectively superior to Vinyl, but harmonic distortion, crosstalk and superior mastering practices elicit a different emotional response.

60fps may be objectively superior from a technical aspect. But I'm talking -- again -- about the emotional response and perception of 30fps; and there is a very different response between lower and higher framerates across various visual mediums and seemingly most people.

Objectivity doesn't apply to my point, as: Objectivity - "in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings, [perceptions] or opinions".

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying the way one makes me feel is -- for me -- more fitting for certain content, even if I have to trade off some responsiveness and visual comfort.
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

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Oh, no worries, didn't mean to be antagonistic myself. Didn't take offense or anything...

Perhaps this clip is a good example of the difference, albeit in a different medium. Here's a clip of Gemini Man, a movie shot at 120fps and played back at 60fps. Nearly all movies are normally shot at 24fps (don't mean to patronise if you know this already): LINK

While the image is super clean and the framerate is smooth; it doesn't "feel" cinematic or anything like a movie which not particularly a bad thing if that's what you're going for.. But in this context, It feels too real and my emotional response to it is one of indifference and mundanity. Whereas at 24fps, my response would be very different (even if the movie or scene isn't great to begin with). Now, you may be one of the few who prefer the higher frame rate in this regard; and that's fine. But I'd be very surprised if it didn't elicit a different response vs 24fps like it seems to in most people. Also, in-frame motion blur can convey a greater sense of weight.

Of course, games are different but in a game that takes on a cinematic or grand manner, all I'm saying is I'm personal happy to prioritise those traits over responsiveness.
I got that, the cinelook is something that I do prefer when watching movies, I think it's about that shutter speed more than just the frame rate. As for games, I find myself in favor of fluidity since the control response is tightly linked to the fps.

Games have dynamic cameras and a lot of panning and 30fps introduces a bit of judder, I think that is the part that I find more difficult to deal when playing at 30fps. There are games that have mitigated that issue with camera based motion blur. I dunno, it really comes down to taste. We are so used to see life footage in 24/30fps that it is a bit jarring to see it in 60fps, it looks almost animated in a sense. I think that is because the way our vision works, seen footage is different from seeing in real like and the brain might catch this discrepancy causing some strangeness with what we see in the display with such precision and clearness.

I hope I have been able to express my thoughts in a way that you can understand, English is not my first language. xD
 
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Oh, no worries, didn't mean to be antagonistic myself. Didn't take offense or anything...

Perhaps this clip is a good example of the difference, albeit in a different medium. Here's a clip of Gemini Man, a movie shot at 120fps and played back at 60fps. Nearly all movies are normally shot at 24fps (don't mean to patronise if you know this already): LINK

While the image is super clean and the framerate is smooth; it doesn't "feel" cinematic or anything like a movie which not particularly a bad thing if that's what you're going for.. But in this context, It feels too real and my emotional response to it is one of indifference and mundanity. Whereas at 24fps, my response would be very different (even if the movie or scene isn't great to begin with). Now, you may be one of the few who prefer the higher frame rate in this regard; and that's fine. But I'd be very surprised if it didn't elicit a different response vs 24fps like it seems to in most people. Also, in-frame motion blur can convey a greater sense of weight.

Of course, games are different but in a game that takes on a cinematic or grand manner, all I'm saying is I'm personal happy to prioritise those traits over responsiveness.
Wow, that clip is nauseating and looks very unprofessional. It looks like it was shot on an iPhone or something. I know it obviously wasn't but 24fps makes things look more believable for some reason. When it's fast like that it just reminds me of an amateur clip or B-roll or something. Very strange. I would hate watching movies like that. Imagine a fight scene where you can clearly see that they're not even hitting each other. That would break the illusion of a crazy battle and look more like 2 grown-ass men play-fighting hahaha.
 

RayHell

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At the end of the day, frame rates mean shit for the quality of a game. A few industry game changers below:

Ocarina of Time: 20/17 fps
Bloodborne: 30 fps
RE4: 30 fps
Breath of the Wild: 30 fps
Halo: CE: 30 fps

Digital Foundry has turned us all into fps autistic assholes. Do 60 fps feel better? Sure. But it ends there.
This is gold. I grew up with games at 15fps. Now people fight over 2 frames difference stating it's unplayable. Even worst, people now start complaining about movie playing at 24fps, that's why we now have TV with frame interpolation turned on by default with this trash soap opera effect happening. Brain can adapt to anything if you're exposed to. I rater have better graphics/lighting than high resolution/framerate any day cause my brain can make up for it, but it can't make up for how the graphics/lighting should look like.

Digital Foundry should be called Digital Refinery cause it's only good to create fuel for console war.
 
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Blond

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Short version: lower framerates in all visual mediums elicit a different emotional response and sense of momentum / I prefer 60fps for most things too, but in regards to spidey I personally prefer 30fps for these reasons and am willing to make the trade off in responsiveness / 60fps options should still be there where possible for those who prefer it, like yourself.
I was playing Like a Dragon and TLOU 2 recently and I get what you’re saying. I feel like 60 in gameplay and 30 in cutscenes is a better approach in story heavy games. It just draws you in a lot better into the overall experience I think.

Any other time though?

 

tommib

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This is gold. I grew up with games at 15fps. Now people fight over 2 frames difference stating it's unplayable. Even worst, people now start complaining about movie playing at 24fps, that's why we now have TV with frame interpolation turned on by default with this trash soap opera effect happening. Brain can adapt to anything if you're exposed to. I rater have better graphics/lighting than high resolution/framerate any day cause my brain can make up for it, but it can't make up for how the graphics/lighting should look like.

Digital Foundry should be called Digital Refinery cause it's only good to create fuel for console war.
I die a little inside every time I go to someone’s place and they have motionflow on their tv to watch fucking Citizen Kane or something. Makes me want to commit suicide since there’s no hope for humanity.
 
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Danjin44

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If there is option I will always choose 60FPS over 30FPS, it just feels better to play but I’m not too oversensitive to say 30FPS in “unplayable”, thats not true at all.
 

GametimeUK

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I actually have a friend who prefers 30fps mode on Spider-Man because he can see the difference in visuals, but can't see the difference framerates. 30fps and 60fps are the same to him. I mean this is a guy who said performance for Skyrim on PS3 was solid so make of that what you will lol.

I do envy him though. Ignorance is a bliss.

(Edit) OP I disagree massively that 30fps is the way to go, but you make some valid points. At the end of the day how something looks is subjective. However, I do think 60fps not only looks better, but is objectively more responsive. You're entitled to your opinion though and thanks for sharing as it's good to see it from another point of view.
 
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nkarafo

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This whole cinematic frame rate and movies being 24 fps... It's all based on compromises. Basically, 24fps is the minimum frame rate you need to convey realistic motion. Less than that and the illusion breaks. More than that and it becomes more expensive than it needs. There are other technicalities that led to this standard, stuff that had to do with 1920's equipment, but they were all compromises.

The idea that 24fps is "correct" or chosen to be the "best" because of some artistic reason is laughable. You just got used to some compromised shit originated 100 years ago and anything that is factually better feels wrong to you because it's not familiar to your eyes. The so called "soap opera effect".

Everythign else being the same, a higher frame rate is always better.
 
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Bonfires Down

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I see where you're coming from. I'd never try to discuss something like this on Gaf though as people get their panties in a bunch. Actually, I wouldn't try to discuss anything on Gaf.
 
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I know it has become a bit of trope that 30fps is closer to 24fps; and therefore it is "more cinematic". But this is one of those games where it holds absolutely true for me.

While I am in absolute agreement that 60fps feels more responsive and has less undesirable judder; and I do prefer 60fps for many game types, (first person, survival, sim, arcade and many other third person games etc.). Spider-Man just feels better to me in 30fps in terms of a sense of momentum, in terms of the visual believability, how the assets appear and just my overall emotional response to the game.

The heightened sense of reality can bring about a sense of mundanity that makes the experience feel less fantastical. Just as in movies where most scenes at HFR break down and literally come across as sets and actors in dress up.. In certain games that are trying to be conveyed as intrinsically cinematic or epic experiences, the more rudimentary nature of assets becomes more apparent with increased temporal resolution.

Insomniac also have exceptional motion blur; and the 60fps modes do not appear to have appropriately adjusted shutter speed for it. With this also comes that sense of momentum: 60fps is giving me more information but it feels mundane, but at 30fps I feel like I have weight and I'm swinging faster. The motion is implied within each frame and my brain is filling in the gaps to create something greater than the sum of its parts. Whereas at 60fps I'm just getting my current position.

Again, I'm totally in favour for 60fps for most other games as well as being an option for games like this. But, for games like this..... that present the character/s and the world to you as one in a somewhat cinematic or epic manner as opposed to presenting the world to you as if you're the character, then I hope making a 30fps option available remains the norm (just as ND did with the recent TLOUII PS5 patch, you can choose either in the menu).

While of course movies and games are different things, there is obviously some cross-over, particularly in games such as Spidey. But one eg. I'd also like to give in respect to movies and in a different regard (spatial resolution and shutter speed vs temporal resolution) would be Mission Impossible: Fallout. There's a few "LIEMAX" scenes near the end shot on a Panavision 8K digital camera at 1.90:1 (as opposed to the 35mm Film 2.35:1 scenes elsewhere). Now from what I can gather these are meant to make the scope feel bigger, to make the action scenes more clear and epic. In reality, these shots overload my sub conscious with visual information (high frequency detail, smoother motion) and subsequently they felt more mundane, too real and removed me from the movie; the fixed shots of Cavill in the chopper just felt like someone stuck a high res camera in a chopper on a documentary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm favour of all kinds of approaches (and especially options for the end user) across different content of different types, but I think it's important to take into account the visual texture of the medium in addition to the content and how it impacts peoples' emotional response to it. And of course, when it comes to games and if it is 30fps, it has to be rock-solid with tight frame-pacing, no tearing and as little latency as possible.

What I don't like is when a game is originally released in 30fps but is updated for new platforms and is only available in 60fps. Days gone did this on PS5 and while I personally do prefer 60fps for it, there should always be an option to revert to the original fps. I can't recall if it was the The Nathan Drake Collection of The Last Of Us Remastered; but one of these released on PS4 with only 60fps available and I absolutely hated it, the texture of it not only robbed it of the feels but last gen geometry stuck out like a sore thumb.

So yeah, to summarise: I think Spidey on PS5 just feels better at 30fps, greater sense of momentum, greater emotional response, more aesthetically pleasing image and more artistically in keeping with the content. And I personally prefer to trade-off some responsiveness and visual comfort in favour of that.
People can laugh all they want, I understand what you mean and I agree with you! 👍
 

nkarafo

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but can't see the difference framerates. 30fps and 60fps are the same to him.
This is physically impossible. Unless your friend has a severe brain condition, he simply doesn't understand the concept of "frame rate". But trust me, he can see the difference.
 

Jeeves

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In this thread: People keeping alive the time-honored Internet tradition of insisting that their own subjective opinions are objective truths, unable to tell the difference, and then marveling at how the discussion goes nowhere.
 
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Kamina

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So yeah, to summarise: I think Spidey on PS5 just feels better at 30fps, greater sense of momentum, greater emotional response, more aesthetically pleasing image and more artistically in keeping with the content. And I personally prefer to trade-off some responsiveness and visual comfort in favour of that.

Only 60 fps is playable.
 

Spukc

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In this thread: People keeping alive the time-honored Internet tradition of insisting that their own subjective opinions are objective truths, unable to tell the difference, and then marveling at how the discussion goes nowhere.
black ink crew spring cleaning GIF by VH1
 

nkarafo

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Oh, no worries, didn't mean to be antagonistic myself. Didn't take offense or anything...

Perhaps this clip is a good example of the difference, albeit in a different medium. Here's a clip of Gemini Man, a movie shot at 120fps and played back at 60fps. Nearly all movies are normally shot at 24fps (don't mean to patronise if you know this already): LINK

While the image is super clean and the framerate is smooth; it doesn't "feel" cinematic or anything like a movie which not particularly a bad thing if that's what you're going for.. But in this context, It feels too real and my emotional response to it is one of indifference and mundanity. Whereas at 24fps, my response would be very different (even if the movie or scene isn't great to begin with). Now, you may be one of the few who prefer the higher frame rate in this regard; and that's fine. But I'd be very surprised if it didn't elicit a different response vs 24fps like it seems to in most people. Also, in-frame motion blur can convey a greater sense of weight.

Of course, games are different but in a game that takes on a cinematic or grand manner, all I'm saying is I'm personal happy to prioritise those traits over responsiveness.
Like i said in my previous post, your eyes are just used to a compromised standard set in the 1920s. You just got used to it. 24fps was not chosen because it was the best or any other artistic reason. It was chosen because it was, then, a balance between quality and cost, plus other technicalities that had to do with 100 years old equipment. And people got used to it. All your "emotional responses" are based on those compromises, not some artistic vision. And anything that doesn't look familiar to you, will make you react negatively, despite being much better.
 
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TonyK

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Aug 13, 2020
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Same for Spiderman, and I had the same feeling with AC Valhalla. Well, and with more games. At 60fps they play better but they look and feel like, well, like a game. At 30fps they look and feel like a movie. In some games doesn't matter, in others 60fps makes the game to feel "fake".

But I need to say that I only choose 30fps over 60fps if there is some graphic improvement. But with the exact same specs, I always will choose 60fps. For example, now that I'm playing Last of us 2 in PS5. 30fps and 60fps have exactly same graphic IQ, and even if 30 is more cinematic, I'm playing at 60fps because it feels more responsive.