Man! You sure convinced me!
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I don't think Dragon's Crown is very good.
- Thread starter Warxard
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Man! You sure convinced me!
WickedLaharl
Member
Pretty with shallow gameplay is vanillaware's MO
It's not "very good", but it is "good".
Haha true, I think most people will read the OP's title but reading his post I can tell he put a lot of time into and probably likes it but just doesn't rank it up there with his favorite Beat Em Ups he listed.
Pyros_Eien
Member
Hmm the lack of hitstun never really bothered me. I see what you mean, but I haven't had an issue with it personally. I guess a large part of this however is I mostly played solo. No NPCs, no other players. That means the health of monsters is scaled for 1person, and they die quick. My favorite characters were the Witch and the Amazon, which both deal with stuff in different ways.
Witch was a lot of flying around and casting quick spell and relying on the so OP food spell to recover any lost health easily.
Amazon on the other hand was mostly about killing stuff before you died, using well timed parries and i-frames to avoid taking damage. I felt the focus was on this, rather than on hitstunning everything to death, especially since with hitstunning, the Amazon would be virtually immortal as when you've stacked Berzerk high enough, the speed at which you attack gets quite ridiculous.
So I don't particularily agree with that point, I think it's a choice and they made it work somewhat. However, if you do get NPCs, it gets a lot more annoying, this is true. The AI is terrible so they mostly act as shitty decoys but increase the damage needed to kill everything by stupid amounts, so that you have to be more careful about stuff because it doesn't die as fast, so you might get hit in return. I think the real issue here is the AI being absolute garbage though.
On the movement, I know what you mean, but I also think it kinda makes sense due to the vertical plane being a lot smaller, and vertical movement being a lot stronger since a lot of attacks only hit direct in front(or in the same lane as you said). That's why it's so shitty. Sadly it gets in the way when you have to move to doors and chests and pick up stuff, and in combat it's a pain in the ass if you don't have abilities that have wide range. I think it could have been faster, by some amount.
The UI complaints I agree with, especially the mess when there's a ton of chars around. I honestly don't remember the thief to be a big issue but I haven't played the game in years so maybe it was.
Overall though, I really liked the game. It was fun, fast paced, challenging enough(which I find is often lacking from this type of game), art was gorgeous, content was recycled relatively efficiently for this genre, the diablo gear aspect added a lot to make the grinding less boring too. I wish there were more classes though, and more content in general, I wish they had made some DLC to buy, even though I generally don't buy DLC, I would have for this game.
Witch was a lot of flying around and casting quick spell and relying on the so OP food spell to recover any lost health easily.
Amazon on the other hand was mostly about killing stuff before you died, using well timed parries and i-frames to avoid taking damage. I felt the focus was on this, rather than on hitstunning everything to death, especially since with hitstunning, the Amazon would be virtually immortal as when you've stacked Berzerk high enough, the speed at which you attack gets quite ridiculous.
So I don't particularily agree with that point, I think it's a choice and they made it work somewhat. However, if you do get NPCs, it gets a lot more annoying, this is true. The AI is terrible so they mostly act as shitty decoys but increase the damage needed to kill everything by stupid amounts, so that you have to be more careful about stuff because it doesn't die as fast, so you might get hit in return. I think the real issue here is the AI being absolute garbage though.
On the movement, I know what you mean, but I also think it kinda makes sense due to the vertical plane being a lot smaller, and vertical movement being a lot stronger since a lot of attacks only hit direct in front(or in the same lane as you said). That's why it's so shitty. Sadly it gets in the way when you have to move to doors and chests and pick up stuff, and in combat it's a pain in the ass if you don't have abilities that have wide range. I think it could have been faster, by some amount.
The UI complaints I agree with, especially the mess when there's a ton of chars around. I honestly don't remember the thief to be a big issue but I haven't played the game in years so maybe it was.
Overall though, I really liked the game. It was fun, fast paced, challenging enough(which I find is often lacking from this type of game), art was gorgeous, content was recycled relatively efficiently for this genre, the diablo gear aspect added a lot to make the grinding less boring too. I wish there were more classes though, and more content in general, I wish they had made some DLC to buy, even though I generally don't buy DLC, I would have for this game.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Thinking about it all of Vanillaware's games give me a big UbiArt vibe, which has also given us some amazing, artist-driven looks in 2D games... Even if a lot of their work came first by quite a margin, hah.Boobs are not the selling point of this game. It still looks flat out amazing and completely unique to other games. Something you don't see often in videogames where things are getting increasing homogeneous with major retail releases.
More on topic, while I preferred Muramasa since it felt faster paced, DC (and I was playing it single player on the Vita) still felt like a nice, solid game for me. Maybe the fantastic presentation values elevated it up for me but while nothing about it was particularly innovative, I definitely felt it was a really good beat 'em up.
Assume your joking, in any case the talks about the models were pretty pathetic.
It's on a lot of must have Vita lists. When I first got my Vita I knew it had middling scores but the brawler inside me plus the lack of much of a library made me go for it.
psynergylover
Member
I enjoyed it, but is does get very repetitive
Also love that pic.
Also love that pic.
Compared to other games in the same genre?
I disagree with the OP as well but come on.
I never felt like I lost my character in the midst of Dragon's Crown combat. So that wasn't a problem for me. Now lane changing issues I agree with you. The slowness reminds me of Streets of Rage 2 but that game felt like it had more space to move.
SkylineRKR
Member
I hated Odin Sphere but I absolutely liked Dragon's Crown. I played it for about 30 hours and I also liked getting good loot (something that always works).
I think I prefer Muramasa though it sort of overstays its welcome.
I think I prefer Muramasa though it sort of overstays its welcome.
Whompa02
Member
Man...
Anywho: I actually totally agree with you, OP. The combat and movement just didn't mesh with me. I think the vertical/lane movement was insanely slow.
I was looking for medieval streets of rage with RPG elements, instead it just felt way WAY too slow.
I also did not like the designs and artistry. It's beautifully rendered but the anatomy was so far exaggerated that it just looked bad.
I only played about two hours before shelving it. I don't think I'll ever come back.
Davey Cakes
Member
I like it but it suffers from some of the issues that I usually have with beat-em-ups.
Playing with at least 3 people is a must because of the teamwork aspect. Otherwise the repetitiveness of the combat gets old.
I was actually surprised how much I LIKED this game when playing it with my pals during a 4-hour marathon session. But yeah, there's no way that could be sustained otherwise.
Playing with at least 3 people is a must because of the teamwork aspect. Otherwise the repetitiveness of the combat gets old.
I was actually surprised how much I LIKED this game when playing it with my pals during a 4-hour marathon session. But yeah, there's no way that could be sustained otherwise.
Imperfected
Member
It's fairly deep for a beat-'em-up, and fairly shallow for a fighting game.
It's hard to say whether or not that was the right way to go about it, since the co-op beat-'em-up genre otherwise basically died with the arcade. Most of the exemplars of the genre have far, far more basic combat systems, so I think Vanillaware can be excused for thinking that simplicity is a major part of the formula.
That said, as with most games of its genre it's absolutely designed for multiplayer. The lack of combat depth is much less of an issue when there are four players and tons of monsters creating chaos on the screen. If you're playing it single-player, even with NPC assistants, it's probably never going to be especially compelling.
It's hard to say whether or not that was the right way to go about it, since the co-op beat-'em-up genre otherwise basically died with the arcade. Most of the exemplars of the genre have far, far more basic combat systems, so I think Vanillaware can be excused for thinking that simplicity is a major part of the formula.
That said, as with most games of its genre it's absolutely designed for multiplayer. The lack of combat depth is much less of an issue when there are four players and tons of monsters creating chaos on the screen. If you're playing it single-player, even with NPC assistants, it's probably never going to be especially compelling.
entremet
Member
I think if you look at DC as a brawler, yeah I can see the disappointment.
However, if you look it as an action loot based RPG it's a little different.
For example, it has skill trees, so starting you're limited to a shallow move pool. As you gain exp. points and skills they gameplay starts getting deeper.
Moreover, you will really need those skills and varied movesets when you start doing harder difficulties, which open up when you beat the previous difficulty.
However, if you look it as an action loot based RPG it's a little different.
For example, it has skill trees, so starting you're limited to a shallow move pool. As you gain exp. points and skills they gameplay starts getting deeper.
Moreover, you will really need those skills and varied movesets when you start doing harder difficulties, which open up when you beat the previous difficulty.
Lalalandia
Member
I was enjoying it right up until it became clear I was expected to rerun dungeons over and over again. I should have expected this from what I'd read on here but I guess I just didn't imagine it would kick in as quickly as it did. Not really my cuppa and I'm nowhere near as proficient in these games as the OP so I can't offer as nuanced a response. Real shame though as I was loving that Kamiya art despite it's ridiculousness, hopefully it winds up on PC at some pint so I can Cheat Engine my way to see more of it.
shadow2810
Member
After playing Muramasa, I just can't get used to DC's combat, not really a fan of vertical movement.
It has the design template of a brawler made by the developers of arguably top 5 best brawler of all time (Shadow Over Mystara).
If I wanted a loot based RPG I'd just get Diablo.
This is Golden Axe on steroids, what's not to like?
Also I think its unreasonable to expect AI to get harder and harder as you increase difficulty - that's just not how people program games - its always been adding extra health or higher defence. If that's one of your criticisms then you'd have to criticise a lot of other games. Of course It would be awesome if it did have more intelligent AI, but I wasn't expecting that. It's kind of like its on US to get smarter rather than the computer.
The thing that I like about this game is the game design, not necessarily the combat itself, but I do like the way there are 9 stages, each with an easy and more difficult path and you have to defeat the nine bosses on each. Even though you have to play each stage multiple times and you could say its effectively "backtracking" to save time on artworks and backgrounds, the game design feels robust enough to replay the stages again and again. The loot system also makes the player invested in the system.
I said in my review it was the best game on the Vita system when it came out, and I'm not sure if anything has surpassed it. It's just a perfect pick up and play game. I know a lot of people will say Persona 4 is the best game on the system, but I'm really struggling to get through it with the generic dungeons in that game.
Also this - I felt nothing for Muramasa on the Wii and Vita and gave up an hour or two in on both.
Yeah its kind of like a side scrolling Diablo.
Also I think its unreasonable to expect AI to get harder and harder as you increase difficulty - that's just not how people program games - its always been adding extra health or higher defence. If that's one of your criticisms then you'd have to criticise a lot of other games. Of course It would be awesome if it did have more intelligent AI, but I wasn't expecting that. It's kind of like its on US to get smarter rather than the computer.
The thing that I like about this game is the game design, not necessarily the combat itself, but I do like the way there are 9 stages, each with an easy and more difficult path and you have to defeat the nine bosses on each. Even though you have to play each stage multiple times and you could say its effectively "backtracking" to save time on artworks and backgrounds, the game design feels robust enough to replay the stages again and again. The loot system also makes the player invested in the system.
I said in my review it was the best game on the Vita system when it came out, and I'm not sure if anything has surpassed it. It's just a perfect pick up and play game. I know a lot of people will say Persona 4 is the best game on the system, but I'm really struggling to get through it with the generic dungeons in that game.
Also this - I felt nothing for Muramasa on the Wii and Vita and gave up an hour or two in on both.
Yeah its kind of like a side scrolling Diablo.
Stormhammer
Member
It was fun for the 3-4 hours I played co-op with friends but it got really annoying losing site of my character in the midst of the battles
Violence Jack
Member
It was a beautiful game with unique character designs, but damn did it bore me to tears. I found the combat to be interesting for a couple of levels, then it just seemed to taper off, and lost steam quickly. The soundtrack was good as well, plus I enjoyed a few of the boss fights. I gave it up after level 5. Just wasn't having fun with it anymore, and that included the co-op.
If you ain't down with Titty, get out of my City.
Infernostew
Member
Loved the game. Played co-op with my brother and it took me back to a time when we would play beat me ups together on NES and Genesis. Gameplay is fun as hell to the point that replaying missions don't get boring.
PhineBuyM3
Member
Speak for yourself. Anyways, the combat is amazing to me. I thought the characters movesets were ok starting out, but once I started unlocking all the moves and leveling them up I was like
Spring-Loaded
Member
Dat artwork in the OP is fantastic though.
It is! I love Kamitani's Art. <3.
Curses and Chaos, Scott Pilgrim, Castle Crashers, Charlie Murder, Double Dragon Neon, Anarchy Reigns, Yakuza 4, Yakuza 5, Phantom Breaker, Sacred Citadel, and even Muramasa are all games that released last gen that I would consider much, much better than Dragon's Crown.
Karsticles
Member
How far did you make it in? I have over 100 hours into this game, and your criticisms are odd.
Dodge between lanes to move faster.
Learn which attacks cause stun and knockback.
More party members increase enemy HP substantially.
Don't use Tiki if you don't want to. She helps you level faster, but leveling isn't always top priority.
The thief doesn't need protecting. He does fine on his own.
In combat, it is the most varied modern beatemup.
Dodge between lanes to move faster.
Learn which attacks cause stun and knockback.
More party members increase enemy HP substantially.
Don't use Tiki if you don't want to. She helps you level faster, but leveling isn't always top priority.
The thief doesn't need protecting. He does fine on his own.
In combat, it is the most varied modern beatemup.
Haha
entremet
Member
Well the issue is that Shadow of Mystara was an arcade game. This was a full retail PS3/V game. It needs more substantial conceits.
To me that game really shines in the higher difficulties. You really can't sleep walk there.
Yep.
I think the issue that people get bored with the initial difficulties and movesets. The game doesn't really open up until you start doing harder difficulties with a stronger character.
But once it does, it's incredibly deep.
It is what it is. I thought it got too crazy with the Wizards magic during coop and thought less of it because of my experience
Where is this dude? Did the naughtydoggs get to him yet
DrROBschiz
Member
I loved it
Criticisms are interesting
I think its largest flaw is the same flaw you get with every Vanillaware game. Once you burn through all of the created artistic assets (which are awesome) you are left with nothing new to find
But that kind of goes for any game.. just that Vanillaware games tend to have a lower threshold by nature of the art involved i guess?
Criticisms are interesting
I think its largest flaw is the same flaw you get with every Vanillaware game. Once you burn through all of the created artistic assets (which are awesome) you are left with nothing new to find
But that kind of goes for any game.. just that Vanillaware games tend to have a lower threshold by nature of the art involved i guess?
Completely agree with you, OP. I wanted to keep playing because the art was so beautiful (and my Vita was starved) but all of those issues you mentioned wore me down.
I've also never enjoyed having to figure out how far into the background I am or whether I'm on the same level as an enemy, it's an issue in every brawler I've ever played. In the end the game was just not for me.
EDIT: Maybe, reading others' posts, I didn't get far enough. But I just didn't enjoy any of my time with it.
I've also never enjoyed having to figure out how far into the background I am or whether I'm on the same level as an enemy, it's an issue in every brawler I've ever played. In the end the game was just not for me.
EDIT: Maybe, reading others' posts, I didn't get far enough. But I just didn't enjoy any of my time with it.
I honestly think that if DC adopted the lane system like Guardian Heroes did it would be much easier and enjoyable to play.
Dodging doesn't compensate for having to line up with your enemy. (Consider I'm playing Archer.)
Archer: Charge shot is the only substantial way to compensate for stun/knock back but it sure does get tedious to jump/charge shot for each enemy.
I maxed my Elf and Fighter.
Dodging doesn't compensate for having to line up with your enemy. (Consider I'm playing Archer.)
Archer: Charge shot is the only substantial way to compensate for stun/knock back but it sure does get tedious to jump/charge shot for each enemy.
I maxed my Elf and Fighter.
Karsticles
Member
Yeah, my wife and I coop, and we are ~floor 100 on the endless dungeon. This is the only reason I still have my PS3.
I have changed my Sorceress specs at least a dozen times as some spells became more useful than others. I experimented for hours on combinations. Calling the game shallow just seems ignorant.
Every genre has a skill set. Dual analog control management is for FPSes. Plane depth is for brawlers.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
To be honest, while playing DC I saw some of your concerns when it comes to combat, and I can agree, but I felt like those concerns were so small and felt petty to the grand amount of things DC does get 'right'. Just because its different from previous experiences or doesn't get incredibly harder with multiple players doesn't make it all a bad game. If anything, I can kind of appreciate how the experience doesn't change with 4p.
Karsticles
Member
You can't max out in this game...
You have total Z axis controls when dodging. Up to you to align.
Elf can up kick to knockdown into combos.
Everyone finds different playstyles to be useful. "Strong" needs context. Amazon is highest DPS. Why isn't she strongest?
I would like to hear why you think Castle Crashers and Scott Pilgrim are much better brawlers than Dragon's Crown. For me personally they are one of the most hollow and unsatifying beat em ups i've played.
Curry-Hakase
Member
While I agree with the points OP made, they weren't enough to detract me from the overall experience and I still properly enjoyed it.
Probably because I always played with friends.
Probably because I always played with friends.
CybernatonEvolution
Member
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This is very vague; how is combat "cheap"? And are you referring to hyper-armor that enemies have? You know, the main issue with the game is balance. Also, consider how gameplay drastically changes when you play on the harder difficulties; the true part of DC starts when you beat the game on infinite and reach level 99 (where you start actual builds and specialize). The last time I played, Elf was the worst, Wizard and Sorceress are top tier, and the rest are good; they easily carry teams in ToM runs and against bosses. Elf was top tier and people extensively bitched about her DPS before she got nerfed.
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Enemies and bosses have different movesets on harder difficulties; the whole game changes at such difficulties. The challenge is in making great builds and strategies to deal with the enemies that fill the screen and learn the boss fights to chain ToM dungeons for as long as you can.
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Side dodge to strafe faster; bunny-hop to move forward fast. You do realize that the Z-axis positioning determines whether you are going to get hit or not in most cases? Strafing is slower to balance that.
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I disagree. It is a mechanically great brawler that has great build variety and end-game challenges to do. It is very fun and rewarding, and some classes require actual skills rather than systematically beating the game with builds (it can be argued that you can systematically cheese certain parts of the game even on higher difficulties with Wizard/sorceress).
I think that you barely scratched the surface of the game. Give it more time and learn how to play the characters properly. If you find it time consuming, uninteresting or too tedious to learn, then the game isn't for you.
It definitely has some issues in terms of combat being a bit too simple, and the lack of hitstun contributes to that "spammy" feeling that you speak of.
That being said, as an overall package I love the game. Sure, it's a Vanillaware game and thusly has a lot of repetition involved, but the core gameplay loop of doing dungeon runs and upgrading your gear is pretty damn satisfying IMO. That and the artwork elevates it to a higher plane since nobody else is doing 2D like Vanillaware.
I agree with some of your criticisms, but I don't think its few faults detract enough from the total package for me to say that the game isn't good.
That being said, as an overall package I love the game. Sure, it's a Vanillaware game and thusly has a lot of repetition involved, but the core gameplay loop of doing dungeon runs and upgrading your gear is pretty damn satisfying IMO. That and the artwork elevates it to a higher plane since nobody else is doing 2D like Vanillaware.
I agree with some of your criticisms, but I don't think its few faults detract enough from the total package for me to say that the game isn't good.
The level cap in DC is 255, both of my classes reach that limit. I haven't gotten through the Ultimate difficulty though.
I think Kick Canceling is the best thing about Elf and combined with another of her skills whose names escapes me right now makes her really aggressive.
entremet
Member
I played most of these and just have to disagree. Scott Pilgrim was insanely boring. I was so hyped for that one, being a RCR fan. Huge disappointment.
I'm also not really getting these shallow combat criticisms. Seems like people only scratched the surface with this game.
LordGorchnik
Member
I definitely concede to you the point of the slow "laning" transition or moving up/down as most people would call it. Defintiely dropped the bomb in that regard. Everything else though I loved about the game. Art is fantastic, simple but fulfilling story for a side-scrolling brawler, amazing soundtrack as always by Basiscape.
I love VW games. Still a shame we don't have Grand Knights Historia. Porting that game to Steam would be absolutely godlike with the online battles we could have.
I love VW games. Still a shame we don't have Grand Knights Historia. Porting that game to Steam would be absolutely godlike with the online battles we could have.
Karsticles
Member
Screenshot with your characters and time played. I am skeptical that you did this, or that, if you did, you did so legitimately.
Yeah, Castle Crashers is simple.
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