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I replayed TLOU2 and I still don't know what to think about it...

assurdum

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I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. THESE GAMES ARE NOTHING ALIKE
The story elements Jesus Christ why you deny the evidence now lol

SURELY, Druckman copied the whole metro exodus story in 1 year to his game that was in dev for 5 fucking years. get a grip

Nooo he stayed close in the studio isolated to the world the whole time :messenger_tears_of_joy: go back to play Metro and check how ND literally copied many details from the story.
 
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rofif

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The story elements Jesus Christ why you deny the evidence now lol
Exodus only came out a year earlier. SURELY, Druckman copied the whole metro exodus story in 1 year to his game that was in dev for 5 fucking years. get a grip
what story elements? what!? I do not agree at all. You are trolling

edit: It's like saying every movie that uses oranges is copying godfather. These are common plot elements. Cliche elements and parts of thousand stories
 
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assurdum

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Exodus only came out a year earlier. SURELY, Druckman copied the whole metro exodus story in 1 year to his game that was in dev for 5 fucking years. get a grip
what story elements? what!? I do not agree at all. You are trolling

edit: It's like saying every movie that uses oranges is copying godfather
You are starting to be ridiculous just to defend this game. Come on now. ND copied some elements from the Metro Exodus story and that's it. Call it citations if make you feel better. If you want believe it's purely a coincidence, fine. I don't. Ah cliche. Sure guards communicate with whistle in every game. Every cliché used by ND coming coincidentally the same game released early
 
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rofif

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You are starting to be ridiculous just to defend this game. Come on now
me? You are. You have no proof of anything, no arguments and just post shit to troll.
You think of some ass hat reasons to dislike the game like stealing from exodus? like what ?! WHat next?
This is crazy and you are delusional hater. I know the game is not perfect but the story is original... and 1000% not copied from exodus lol.
There are too many people like you around here recently and it's hard to have any discussion on anything. Go to abandoned thread and join these weirdos.

you have no clear point. If You hate the game it's OK. It's not for everyone. just like Death Stranding but to think of these weird shit? why
 
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assurdum

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me? You are. You have no proof of anything, no arguments and just post shit to troll.
You think of some ass hat reasons to dislike the game like stealing from exodus? like what ?! WHat next?
This is crazy and you are delusional hater. I know the game is not perfect but the story is original... and 1000% not copied from exodus lol.
There are too many people like you around here recently and it's hard to have any discussion on anything. Go to abandoned thread and join these weirdos.

you have no clear point. If You hate the game it's OK. It's not for everyone. just like Death Stranding but to think of these weird shit? why
I don't hate anything. I express my opinion about it lol it's you who deny even some blatancy about the story just because you can't avoid to act like a creepy fanboy and nothing more. Not sure why persist with this attitude and you can't accept even negative criticism.
 
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rofif

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I don't hate anything. I express my opinion about it lol it's you who deny even the evidence about it. Not sure why persist with this attitude.
You didn't present any "evdence".
Evidence of what ?! There were trailers of religious group in tlou2 before metro came out
Why would Neil copy anything from metro which came out only a year earlier... the game is DONE by that point.
go away. I am reporting you for derailing the thread
 
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assurdum

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You didn't present any "evdence".
Evidence of what ?! There were trailers of religious group in tlou2 before metro came out
Why would Neil copy anything from metro which came out only a year earlier... the game is DONE by that point.
go away. I am reporting you for derailing the thread
Really now? In what way I derailed the thread? What evidence there was in the old trailer of TLOU2 about a religious group?
 
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rofif

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Really now? In what way I derailed the thread? What evidence there was in the old trailer they were a religious group?
Shaming people for having emotional reaction to the game by falling for "easy emotion".
Spreading fake, imaginary tinfoil ideas just to prove your point.
That's not how it works. You cannot take ideas out of your ass and say Neil copied religious group from metro... which was not even out by the time trailers for tlou2 already had that.
I might disagree with GymWolf GymWolf also in last few threads but he is able to prove real arguments and something to the discussion.
You are just a hater who won't let it any other way. There is no way to have any reasonable argument with you.
 

EruditeHobo

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In TLOU 2 it felt that the game was trying to make us sympathies in both side but I just couldn't sympathies with Fireflies and Abby, because all I saw was them willing to sacrifice someone for a pipe dream.

This is fine, we can agree to disagree. If a story doesn't work for you, it just doesn't work for you. Doesn't mean you're dumb, or missing something, or whatever. These things can be governed by feelings, and be valid.

But the reality of sacrificing Ellie in search of a potential cure is never at any point presented as a "pipe dream". Not in either game. It's treated quite seriously by all involved, including characters with lots of knowledge about the outbreak. So this isn't a really well-supported takeaway, from what I can tell.
 

Woggleman

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Maybe it was a pipe dream but they were desperate. They thought that one life was worth saving maybe millions. People in this game act like real humans would act instead of always logical robots. When you genuinely believe you have the chance save humanity and civilization but you have to sacrifice one life I understand why somebody would think it was worth it.
 
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Danjin44

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But the reality of sacrificing Ellie in search of a potential cure is never at any point presented as a "pipe dream". Not in either game. It's treated quite seriously by all involved, including characters with lots of knowledge about the outbreak. So this isn't a really well-supported takeaway, from what I can tell.
But the game didn't show me anything about how small group fireflies can make and distribute vaccine to save humanity with little to no resource. They can take it "seriously" as much as they want but based on information we have its impossible.
 
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yurqqa

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But the game didn't show me anything about how small group fireflies can make and distribute vaccine to save humanity with little to no resource. They can take it "seriously" as much they want but based on information we its impossible.
Bet you are not vaccinated.
 
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Ulysses 31

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But the reality of sacrificing Ellie in search of a potential cure is never at any point presented as a "pipe dream". Not in either game. It's treated quite seriously by all involved, including characters with lots of knowledge about the outbreak. So this isn't a really well-supported takeaway, from what I can tell.
The pipe dream is creating and distributing the amounts needed to "cure" the world, not just making the initial vaccine.
 
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EruditeHobo

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But the game didn't show me anything about how small group fireflies can make and distribute vaccine to save humanity with little to no resource. They can take it "seriously" as much they want but based on information we its impossible.

There's no talk of that because it doesn't matter... the sticking point is that Ellie represents to this group of people a possible turning point, a point of change, the possibility of a certain kind of hope for potentially a whole lot of people. And it will require her to be sacrificed. That's all. And that dividing line is where these characters end up on opposite sides, and it is treated very seriously based on the characters' response.

That's what matters, that's why it's not a "pipe dream" and you shouldn't take that away from the series. It's never presented as such.
Whether or not they actually roll out a vaccine to the rest of humanity is completely 100% irrelevant.
 
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EruditeHobo

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The pipe dream is creating and distributing the amounts needed to "cure" the world, not just making the initial vaccine.

The medical breakthrough via Ellie is real, everyone treats it as real, and while the potential for such a breakthrough may not be fully known it's clearly going to be impactful. That's all that matters.
 
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Guilty_AI

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I think this video does a good job at explaining what druckmann vision was when he made the story.

However, the main issue people have with the game are the ways this vision fails to achieve what it wanted.

"They killed joel to make you feel like Ellie and hate Abby"
Except it doesn't. This won't make the players hate Abby, it'll make them hate Druckmann, and in some worst cases just disconnect from the story altogether and stop caring rather than sympathizing with Ellie.

"players were struggling with the morally ambiguos actions taken by joel in the last game just like Ellie"
Except we weren't. Its just a game, no one will struggle with the morality of the whole thing for too long - some even fully agreed with Joel thanks to some poor world building. And ultimately it was a forced event, aka something the author wanted to happen we had 0 input in, no reason to feel personally conficted.

"the player begins to question if revenge is worth it"
Except we dont. Revenge bad is one of the most overused moral points in drama. We've known its not worth it for a long time now (at least when it comes to fiction). All thats left is watching a long long campaign that you know full well from start will be just misery porn that will culminate in "revenge is bad" at the end.

"naughty dog wants to challenge you to play as someone you hate"
Except we don't hate her, we just don't care about her at all. If anything her arc is what makes players hate her since the bad writing unknowingly makes her out to be a complete sociopath.

"the game wants you to understand that when she killed joel she was in that same pain you are now"
First, we are not in pain, we're probably at a point where we feel nothing but detachment from the story and want the credits to roll already.
Second, yeah, it was obvious from the very beginning the reason she killed Joel was pretty personal, and it wouldn't be surprising if he had it coming considering his past and all.
So, since i already understand this, can i skip this 10 hours section and go to next plot point already?

"Their intention in making you play as two characters with two separate stories was to cause a complete loss of subjective self-identity when their timelines merge"
Its a linear game where we have no input to the plot. And for a while now we've already been disagreeing with pretty much every course of action from the characters. We've already lost any form of subjective self-identity in the game for a long time now, along with our interest in it.


Well, it was still a pretty educational video.
Now i understand why some people like this game. Basically there are two types, the ones that get too easily affected and sucked in by fiction, and the ones that are a little harder to break.
If you're the former, you'll fall right into the emotional traps of the game even if they are pretty cheap, if you are the later you'll see through everything from the beginning and the game will just become a cringe slog where all the flaws end up standing out even more.
 
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Danjin44

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The medical breakthrough via Ellie is real, everyone treats it as real, and while the potential for such a breakthrough may not be fully known it's clearly going to be impactful. That's all that matters.
Even with the vaccine possible there no way they could distribute enough to people to save humanity, in fact things might get even worse because other group of factions also try get their hands of the limited number vaccine so there would be even more war and conflict.
 
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Rivet

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I liked TLoU 2 a lot as a game. Technically, it's a marvel with probably the best character animations in any game. The gameplay is pretty great too.

I didn't like the story that much though, not because they kill Joel (it makes sense even if you don't like it, he basically sacrificed the future of humanity for a single kid) or because you play Abby half of the time (it makes sense too because the point is to make you feel both sides of the story and it works), but because the story is extremely dark and depressing. Playing this game really takes a toll on you if you feel involved in it... Probably one of the darkest games ever in terms of feelings for the player. I'm not sure I want that feeling in my games.

The other thing I didn't like about the story is it's basically a revenge story, which rarely makes for the best movies, to say the least. After all, revenge is dumb, we all know that, we don't really need movies and stories to tell us again and again. We know we won't earn anything with revenge and that's pointless. Yet after being spared once, you tell me she'll abandon her girl and her baby and go back for revenge AGAIN because a dumbass friend came at her house and asked for it (why the fuck didn't he move on either ?). Give me a break...They really lost me there. They should have stopped that at the house with the baby. The ending felt too much like an average revenge movie. It wasn't good. Ellie shouldn't be that dumb.
 
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Ulysses 31

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The medical breakthrough via Ellie is real, everyone treats it as real, and while the potential for such a breakthrough may not be fully known it's clearly going to be impactful. That's all that matters.
It also matters if they can follow through and keep creating more vaccines, otherwise it's a very local and short lived solution which would render Ellie's sacrifice pretty much useless.

That's why it's hard to take this "both sides have their reasons" serious when you scrutinize the all information in the game and don't see any evidence the Fireflies have the capability to mass produce and distribute. In fact, there's evidence they have suffered major losses and are on the brink of disbanding.
 
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assurdum

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Shaming people for having emotional reaction to the game by falling for "easy emotion".
Spreading fake, imaginary tinfoil ideas just to prove your point.
That's not how it works. You cannot take ideas out of your ass and say Neil copied religious group from metro... which was not even out by the time trailers for tlou2 already had that.
I might disagree with GymWolf GymWolf also in last few threads but he is able to prove real arguments and something to the discussion.
You are just a hater who won't let it any other way. There is no way to have any reasonable argument with you.
Are you fucking kidding me? It's with me which is impossible discuss? I specified it's my personal opinion in almost every post (as it wasn't obvious) and you named me for the most part as hater, because I dare to say TLOU2 has bad writing and some parts blatantly copied to the Metro Exodus story (which it's inspired to a book, just to remind to you)? You should start to use your brain before to post and stop to act as people attack you because they have different opinions.
 
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rofif

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I think this video does a good job at explaining what druckmann vision was when he made the story.

However, the main issue people have with the game are the ways this vision fails to achieve what it wanted.

"They killed joel to make you feel like Ellie and hate Abby"
Except it doesn't. This won't make the players hate Abby, it'll make them hate Druckmann, and in some worst cases just disconnect from the story altogether and stop caring rather than sympathizing with Ellie.

"players were struggling with the morally ambiguos actions taken by joel in the last game just like Ellie"
Except we weren't. Its just a game, no one will struggle with the morality of the whole thing for too long - some even fully agreed with Joel thanks to some poor world building. And ultimately it was a forced event, aka something the author wanted to happen we had 0 input in, no reason to feel personally conficted.

"the player begins to question if revenge is worth it"
Except we dont. Revenge bad is one of the most overused moral points in drama. We've known its not worth it for a long time now (at least when it comes to fiction). All thats left is watching a long long campaign that you know full well from start will be just misery porn that will culminate in "revenge is bad" at the end.

"naughty dog wants to challenge you to play as someone you hate"
Except we don't hate her, we just don't care about her at all. If anything her arc is what makes players hate her since the bad writing unknowingly makes her out to be a complete sociopath.

"the game wants you to understand that when she killed joel she was in that same pain you are now"
First, we are not in pain, we're probably at a point where we feel nothing but detachment from the story and want the credits to roll already.
Second, yeah, it was obvious from the very beginning the reason she killed Joel was pretty personal, and it wouldn't be surprising if he had it coming considering his past and all.
So, since i already understand this, can i skip this 10 hours section and go to next plot point already?

"Their intention in making you play as two characters with two separate stories was to cause a complete loss of subjective self-identity when their timelines merge"
Its a linear game where we have no input to the plot. And for a while now we've already been disagreeing with pretty much every course of action from the characters. We've already lost any form of subjective self-identity in the game for a long time now, along with our interest in it.


Well, it was still a pretty educational video.
Now i understand why some people like this game. Basically there are two types, the ones that get too easily affected and sucked in by fiction, and the ones that are a little harder to break.
If you're the former, you'll fall right into the emotional traps of the game even if they are pretty cheap, if you are the later you'll see through everything from the beginning and the game will just become a cringe slog where all the flaws end up standing out even more.
Yes. Hate druckmann. But still FEEL THE HATE. Be angry. That is emotion ! :)
I really like this summary to those who still want Abby dead at the end:
"You may have beat the game that you were playing with your controller, but you may have lost the game that naughty dog was playing with your soul"
 

Hugare

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Joel dying isn’t the issue. The story trying to say that he deserved to die is the problem.

I stopped playing when

you’re playing as Abbey and have to then try kill Ellie

That moment was just too fucked up for me.
Turn off, delete.
Posts like yours shows that some of you still dont get it

I'm not saying that people who deslike the game "dont understand" the game. But some cant quite see it from other perspectives.

Yes, Joel deserved to die. He was a fucking mass murdered, ffs. He killed not only Abby's father and the Fireflies, but how many innocent people when he was younger with Tommy?

So many "Joels" for so many Ellies were probably killed by his hands.

From Abby's perspective, he was a jerk. And Ellie was also a monster.

Ellie killed all of Abby's friends + boyfriend + her dog + a fucking babby because of Joel

Imagine Abby killing Joel, Tommy, Dina, and pretty much everyone that Ellie ever cared about because of her fathers death

In the end, Ellie is a freaking monster in ways that Abby never was.

But we brush it off because we know Ellie, we feel her pain for Joel's death and etc.
 
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assurdum

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Yes. Hate druckmann. But still FEEL THE HATE. Be angry. That is emotion ! :)
I really like this summary to those who still want Abby dead at the end:
"You may have beat the game that you were playing with your controller, but you may have lost the game that naughty dog was playing with your soul"
Man always the same justification with you. Good Lord.
 
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assurdum

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It's a phrase from the video.
Go back to your tinfoil hat theories and stop talking to me. Is there an ignore function?
Why are you so angry? You can't really discuss with someone with different opinion? You practically give the idiot to everyone who said negative stuff about TLOU2. It's incredibly how impossible it's discuss to some fan. I love what TLOU1 was and detested what try to do Neil with TLOU2 discussing about it. Can I?
 
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Guilty_AI

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Yes. Hate druckmann. But still FEEL THE HATE. Be angry. That is emotion ! :)
I really like this summary to those who still want Abby dead at the end:
"You may have beat the game that you were playing with your controller, but you may have lost the game that naughty dog was playing with your soul"
No, they don't want Abby dead, they want Druckmann out of the directors chair so they can get an actually good story that doesn't rely on cheap plot devices to work.
Assuming they still care at all, theres also the chance they just gave up on ND to move to greener pastures.
 
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rofif

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Why are you so angry? You can't really discuss with someone with different opinion? You practically give the idiot to everyone said something negative to the TLOU2.
Did I? I feel it's the other way around and me being called out for liking the game and not agreeing with some of your opinions.
You never stated why would Neil copy religious group from metro (game or book). It's just a religious group. Could be any other group, it doesn't really matter

Guilty_AI Guilty_AI Cheap plot devices? But it worked. It worked for many people. The story is complex and far from simple. As You can see yourself, many conclusions and feelings can be drawn from it.
I don't see ND decline. I much prefer people like Neil take their chances and risk to tell a bold story, rather than a simple sequel
 
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assurdum

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Did I? I feel it's the other way around and me being called out for liking the game and not agreeing with some of your opinions.
You never stated why would Neil copy religious group from metro (game or book). It's just a religious group. Could be any other group, it doesn't really matter
When I called you out to liking the game? The hell you are talking about? I already repeated 3 times what are the elements copied by ND in the story. It can't be a coincidence all the main aspects of the Metro story appear all in TLOU 2. I don't know how you can be so naive to believe it but believe what you want. Just don't accuse me to invent things or to be a hater because I noticed it and I don't think it's a coincidence.
 
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Rivet

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I think this video does a good job at explaining what druckmann vision was when he made the story.

However, the main issue people have with the game are the ways this vision fails to achieve what it wanted.

"They killed joel to make you feel like Ellie and hate Abby"
Except it doesn't. This won't make the players hate Abby, it'll make them hate Druckmann, and in some worst cases just disconnect from the story altogether and stop caring rather than sympathizing with Ellie.

"players were struggling with the morally ambiguos actions taken by joel in the last game just like Ellie"
Except we weren't. Its just a game, no one will struggle with the morality of the whole thing for too long - some even fully agreed with Joel thanks to some poor world building. And ultimately it was a forced event, aka something the author wanted to happen we had 0 input in, no reason to feel personally conficted.

"the player begins to question if revenge is worth it"
Except we dont. Revenge bad is one of the most overused moral points in drama. We've known its not worth it for a long time now (at least when it comes to fiction). All thats left is watching a long long campaign that you know full well from start will be just misery porn that will culminate in "revenge is bad" at the end.

"naughty dog wants to challenge you to play as someone you hate"
Except we don't hate her, we just don't care about her at all. If anything her arc is what makes players hate her since the bad writing unknowingly makes her out to be a complete sociopath.

"the game wants you to understand that when she killed joel she was in that same pain you are now"
First, we are not in pain, we're probably at a point where we feel nothing but detachment from the story and want the credits to roll already.
Second, yeah, it was obvious from the very beginning the reason she killed Joel was pretty personal, and it wouldn't be surprising if he had it coming considering his past and all.
So, since i already understand this, can i skip this 10 hours section and go to next plot point already?

"Their intention in making you play as two characters with two separate stories was to cause a complete loss of subjective self-identity when their timelines merge"
Its a linear game where we have no input to the plot. And for a while now we've already been disagreeing with pretty much every course of action from the characters. We've already lost any form of subjective self-identity in the game for a long time now, along with our interest in it.


Well, it was still a pretty educational video.
Now i understand why some people like this game. Basically there are two types, the ones that get too easily affected and sucked in by fiction, and the ones that are a little harder to break.
If you're the former, you'll fall right into the emotional traps of the game even if they are pretty cheap, if you are the later you'll see through everything from the beginning and the game will just become a cringe slog where all the flaws end up standing out even more.


Nah, this video is wrong. The writer doesn't want you to hate Abby, a writer doesn't care, you're free to feel what you want. I felt a bit sad about Joel's quick death, but I didn't hate Abby at all, and it's fine.

The writer wants to tell a story, both sides. He doesn't want to make you feel a special feeling or another, he doesn't care, that part is on you. You can laugh if it makes you laugh.

He tells the story he wants to tell, a story he thinks is interesting (in my opinion it still is, although I didn't like everything in it), he doesn't want anything from you.

Even if you don't like the story, a writer is fine with it. Only thing he likes a bit less is if you don't care at all. Indifference is the least interesting feeling.

And if anything, all those threads show people were anything but indifferent.
 
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bitbydeath

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Posts like yours shows that some of you still dont get it

I'm not saying that people who deslike the game "dont understand" the game. But some cant quite see it from other perspectives.

Yes, Joel deserved to die. He was a fucking mass murdered, ffs. He killed not only Abby's father and the Fireflies, but how many innocent people when he was younger with Tommy?

So many "Joels" for so many Ellies were probably killed by his hands.

From Abby's perspective, he was a jerk. And Ellie was also a monster.

Ellie killed all of Abby's friends + boyfriend + her dog + a fucking babby because of Joel

Imagine Abby killing Joel, Tommy, Dina, and pretty much everyone that Ellie ever cared about because of her fathers death

In the end, Ellie is a freaking monster in ways that Abby never was.

But we brush it off because we know Ellie, we feel her pain for Joel's death and etc.
Joel wasn’t just killing them, he was defending himself from them. Ellie’s pain was fresh, Abbys was from years before and without a full picture of what went on.
 

Guilty_AI

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Guilty_AI Guilty_AI Cheap plot devices? But it worked. It worked for many people.
Thats why they are cheap. Making a story where you have a protagonist surround and loved by beautiful/handsome women/men is also a cheap plot device cause it works.
Does that make the story good just because it works? Nope, it makes it cheap.
 

rofif

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Nah, this video sucks. The writer doesn't want you to hate Abby, a writer doesn't care, you're free to feel what you want. I felt a bit sad about Joel's quick death, but I didn't hate Abby at all, and it's fine.

The writer wants to tell a story, both sides. He doesn't want to make you feel a special feeling or another, he doesn't care, that part is on you. You can laugh if it makes you laugh.

He tells a story, the one he wants to tell, a story he thinks is interesting (in my opinion it is), he doesn't want anything from you.

Even if you don't like the story, a writer is fine with it. Only thing he likes a bit less is if you don't care at all. Indifference is the least interesting feeling.

And if anything, all those threads show people were anything but indifferent.
How can't you hate Abby, the killer?
That's the whole point of the game. To play as the hated killer of your fav character and then maybe come around from other pov.
The writer absolutely want you to feel this way. I mean... the writer tries but if it is successful, you can see by the divided opinion.
I was super negative about the game for good 15-20 hours. Really did not wanted to play as Abby and almost dropped the game. But I got back to it day later, continued and it won me over.
And I think this is what they were aiming for. And this never could work for 100% of people as some are less forgiving in life and not as empathetic maybe
 
May 28, 2013
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But the game didn't show me anything about how small group fireflies can make and distribute vaccine to save humanity with little to no resource. They can take it "seriously" as much as they want but based on information we have its impossible.
Why does the game have to go into detail about how to distribute the vaccine? Is that important to the story that's being told? The game doesn't go into detail about lots of things. We don't ever hear about what the political leaders and political/social organisms of the world are doing about the pandemic. All of that and much more that isn't touched by the narrative is only peripheral to it.
 
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rofif

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Thats why they are cheap. Making a story where you have a protagonist surround and loved by beautiful/handsome women/men is also a cheap plot device cause it works.
Does that make the story good just because it works? Nope, it makes it cheap.
idk. I've seen thousand movies and played thousand games.
The story might seem "cliche" by putting you in bad guy perspective but for me it is really surprising that it worked. As I said above - I said to my wife "now they want me to play as this stupid girl with huge arms to make me empathize with her"... and somehow I did! It was a rollercoaster and a feeling I did not knew I was capable of. I learned to let go... and give the game/story a chance. To open to it and I was ultimately rewarded
 
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Hunnybun

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I know this is barely relevant to the discussion, but I'm not even sure if a vaccine is even the best hope for people at that point.

They don't seem short of numbers or weapons - it'd surely be much more viable to just try to kill off the infected. It's not like a vaccine even solves that much of the problem: half the time new victims are killed AT THE SAME TIME as being infected by being ripped to shreds etc. How does a vaccine help that?!
 

Danjin44

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Why does the game have to go into detail about how to distribute the vaccine?
Because they are willing kill a person to make it happen, I need to know in believable way how that possible especially if the game wants me to sympathies with fireflies.
 

assurdum

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Nah, this video is wrong. The writer doesn't want you to hate Abby, a writer doesn't care, you're free to feel what you want. I felt a bit sad about Joel's quick death, but I didn't hate Abby at all, and it's fine.

The writer wants to tell a story, both sides. He doesn't want to make you feel a special feeling or another, he doesn't care, that part is on you. You can laugh if it makes you laugh.

He tells the story he wants to tell, a story he thinks is interesting (in my opinion it still is, although I didn't like everything in it), he doesn't want anything from you.

Even if you don't like the story, a writer is fine with it. Only thing he likes a bit less is if you don't care at all. Indifference is the least interesting feeling.

And if anything, all those threads show people were anything but indifferent.
The writer literally put you in the position to hate Abby in the first part of the game. Then try to reverse your point of views playing with her in the second half of the game. The problem it's you perceive it all the time. I would like more if Abby was a total sociopath; it would be more original and brave. The way they tried to humanise her the second half, it's annoying.
 
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Rivet

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How can't you hate Abby, the killer?
That's the whole point of the game. To play as the hated killer of your fav character and then maybe come around from other pov.
The writer absolutely want you to feel this way. I mean... the writer tries but if it is successful, you can see by the divided opinion.
I was super negative about the game for good 15-20 hours. Really did not wanted to play as Abby and almost dropped the game. But I got back to it day later, continued and it won me over.
And I think this is what they were aiming for. And this never could work for 100% of people as some are less forgiving in life and not as empathetic maybe

I don't know, maybe I'm too old, I didn't feel any hate. Or maybe I didn't like Joel enough when he got killed, I don't know.

Maybe that's why I was okay with playing Abby.
 
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Because they are willing kill a person to make it happen, I need to know in believable way how that possible especially if the game wants me to sympathies with fireflies.
They probably have a way to do that? It isn't brought up because that's not the focus of the story. If it had come to that, then the writers would have added those details into the narrative. I don't see how that's relevant. Ever watched the movie "The Road"? Last of Us is similar to that movie, it's about the characters not the political aspects or the science.
 

Guilty_AI

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idk. I've seen thousand movies and played thousand games.
The story might seem "cliche" by putting you in bad guy perspective but for me it is really surprising that it worked. As I said above - I said to my wife "now they want me to play as this stupid girl with huge arms to make me empathize with her"... and somehow I did! It was a rollercoaster and a feeling I did not knew I was capable of. I learned to let go... and give the game/story a chance. To open to it and I was ultimately rewarded
idk man. I mean, if you really try to like something, even if that something is fairly bad and doesn't deserve the love, there's still a good chance that you will like it.
But thats what i call an abusive relationship and would rather let go (of the game) and move on to something more interesting. Not like i have any particular reason to stick to it, i'm no big fan of ND or TLoU anyway, though it may be different for you.
 
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Danjin44

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They probably have a way to do that? It isn't brought up because that's not the focus of the story. If it had come to that, then the writers would have added those details into the narrative. I don't see how that's relevant. Ever watched the movie "The Road"? Last of Us is similar to that movie, it's about the characters not the political aspects or the science.
How!? they game give us nothing to show how is that possible! Again they willing kill one of the main characters to do that so yes that detail is important. In the movie "Road" the world is already fucked and is less about saving humanity and more about those two just trying to survive.
 
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How!? they game give us nothing to show how is that possible! Again they willing kill one of the main characters to do that so yes that detail is important. In the movie "Road" the world is already fucked and is less about saving humanity and more about those two just trying to survive.
And you think Last of Us is about saving humanity from a fatal virus? Dude, you must have a real hard time with any kind of story. I already explained twice to you. It's not the story's problem, it's yours.
 

Ulysses 31

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Yes, Joel deserved to die. He was a fucking mass murdered, ffs. He killed not only Abby's father and the Fireflies, but how many innocent people when he was younger with Tommy?
Why are you skipping over that the Fireflies kidnapped Joel, stripped him of his gear and were marching him to a possible death? Joel made a reasonable request to see Ellie and they started getting violent.

The Fireflies acted unethical in the way they were going to murder Ellie.

Joel and Tommy's hunter days would've been interesting to see but I don't see how those past events count against Joel at the hospital.
 

Danjin44

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And you think Last of Us is about saving humanity from a fatal virus? Dude, you must have a real hard time with any kind of story. I already explained twice to you. It's not the story's problem, it's yours.
The game want us feel that Joel "doomed" humanity but I didn't see that, in fact I saw Fireflies and crazy group of people trying to killing someone for impossible dream.
 
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Maybe because is the objective of the first game? Deliver Ellie to a possible cure. But who cares about a vaccine, right?
Frustrated Star Trek GIF
 
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The game want us feel that Joel "doomed" humanity but I didn't see that, in fact I saw Fireflies and crazy group of people trying to killing someone for impossible dream.
The game wants you to feel that? Interesting, because I don't think it ever made me feel that. I felt he did a terrible thing for humanity, but not that it was "doomed". After all, success of making a vaccine and one that worked and was righteously administered to the people was not a guaranteed outcome. Who knows what would have followed if the doctors had obtained a vaccine? Joel didn't do humanity any favors though.
 
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