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[Myths]

I agree with you, but I think devs find it easier just to scale everything than thinking about the intricacies of planning it all out. Id love to see that behavior change.

I think the same could be said of players leveling and getting through by brute force or sheer stats rather than actual strategy.

... but then, what strategy if the devs aren’t actually implementing any intricacies as you said? There’s an exchange to be noted here.

 

[Kathanan]

I can sort of understand why level scaling would appeal to game developers: it makes the whole design and testing phase easier; there's no need to constantly tweaks things because you've discovered that the player is too powerful or too weak at a certain point.

But, as many have pointed out, level scaling doesn't work. It's only good on paper.

It's actually what stopped me from playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey. I got bored of feeling as though I wasn't making any progress in the game or becoming more powerful.

I remember the first time I encountered level scaling, all the way back in FF8 on the PS1. It was plain ridiculous that the first enemies you encountered in the game were still able to dish a huge amount of damage even after you're 20 hours into the game, due to them being scaled to match the party.

Putting level scaling into a game means you might as well ditch the progression system altogether.

why did you not change the level scaling.. in the options menu?

 

[Life]

TBH, the problem of enemy AI isn't making them smarter/more adaptable/able to learn/etc. It's making them seem to be all those things while also staying stupid enough for players to still win.

Most of what we think of as enemy AI is more art than science and more choreography than tactics. As such, I don't know that the problem of crappy AI and bullet sponge difficulty levels will ever go away. =/

It's frustrating to say the least. I've been playing games so long - and each year it gets more difficult to find something that is both enjoyable and challenging. I usually choose hard mode and feel cheated when a game first asks you to finish on "Normal" to unlock "Hard." Oh so you want me to senselessly press one button for 13 hours so I could finally unlock some sort of satisfaction out of this game?

 

[Zannegan]

It's frustrating to say the least. I've been playing games so long - and each year it gets more difficult to find something that is both enjoyable and challenging. I usually choose hard mode and feel cheated when a game first asks you to finish on "Normal" to unlock "Hard." Oh so you want me to senselessly press one button for 13 hours so I could finally unlock some sort of satisfaction out of this game?

Sorry, I didn't mean to be discouraging. There are ways to make compelling, reactuve, challenging enemies, but it would take a human investment from the big publishers, and I just don't have much faith in them these days.

I was surprised that the Shadow of Mordor Nemesis System didn't get ripped off wholesale in the era of open-world games, but even that seems like too much of a bother for them. Last I heard, FEAR was still the gold standard for enemy AI, and that game came out 15 years ago. *shrug*

On the other hand, with graphics hitting something of a plateau, they're going to have to adverise on the strength of something else. We can always hope.

 

[Aintitcool]

Enemy scaling is done when you don't pay game designer enough to tune the game to different difficulties. I agree its a developer cop out and can lead to bad gameplay if the numbers behind the system get weird.

 

[Life]

Sorry, I didn't mean to be discouraging. There are ways to make compelling, reactuve, challenging enemies, but it would take a human investment from the big publishers, and I just don't have much faith in them these days.

I was surprised that the Shadow of Mordor Nemesis System didn't get ripped off wholesale in the era of open-world games, but even that seems like too much of a bother for them. Last I heard, FEAR was still the gold standard for enemy AI, and that game came out 15 years ago. *shrug*

On the other hand, with graphics hitting something of a plateau, they're going to have to adverise on the strength of something else. We can always hope.

Things will probably go in these directions for most games: multiplayer focus, user-created content and character customization . Maybe Souls-like games will focus on AI advances. RPGs will likely stick to the same old cos..people keep giving 9/10 for the same old.

 

[Kharnivore2099]

I mean, it basically killed Oblivion and Skyrim to some degree and is why Morrowind is still the most enjoyable to play. Enemy scaling is always terrible in my experience.

 

[bhunachicken]

why did you not change the level scaling.. in the options menu?

Even at the lowest setting, the enemies will only drop to 4 levels behind or so, which is stupid.

 

[Xeaker]

Level Scaling is so boring, just experience it again in Cold Steel 2. Just let me overlevel if I want ffs.

 

[ethomaz]

Enemy level scaling is bad and lazy game design.

 

[TheContact]

i fucking HATE enemy scaling. I don't like replaying FF8 simply because of this.

 

[Rentahamster]

Where do you stand on enemy level scaling?

Mostly agreed, but some of my favorite games of all time had level scaling, but in a more nuanced way.

Final Fantasy Tactics: All random battles were scaled, all story battles were not. That was a great compromise, and it still allowed the player to grind. One of the drawbacks of global level scaling is that it makes grinding have no payoff anymore, so what's the point? Kinda like Final Fantasy 8 where the optimal gameplay was to not level up lol.

Diablo II: This had level scaling in the form of difficulty levels (Nightmare, Hell), but it was player directed and more more controlled, which kept the grinding and progression reward payoffs intact, and even enhanced them to an extent.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Totally agree,I think enemies should work like this. Each region has a floor and a ceiling. It matches your current level when you first enter it, then it is locked for that playthrough. There are harder regions where the levels are either set or the floor is really high to stop people from abusing it.

I hate how getting more powerful some how makes my enemies more powerful.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I remember the first time I encountered level scaling, all the way back in FF8 on the PS1. It was plain ridiculous that the first enemies you encountered in the game were still able to dish a huge amount of damage even after you're 20 hours into the game, due to them being scaled to match the party.

FF8’s scaling was really meant to be exploited, though. Take a look at some power-up guides for the game. If you know how to exploit the system (no encounter, petrify enemies to get no Exp, level monsters up and down to get the best drops and magic, etc) the game gets a lot more interesting. And it makes clear pretty early that leveling up too much isn’t the way to go when you realize that using GF and mashing Square to make their attacks stronger isn’t really a viable solution long-term.

The game never makes this clear, that much is true. But it’s really fun when you understand how it works.

Of course, on my first playthrough I didn’t figure this out and had a hard time.

 

[ipukespiders]

I hate in games like Resident Evil when you do you best to find and conserve ammo, build up a nice reserve, perfect your aim, then all the grunts take 8 head shots to kill.

 

[Spukc]

I hate in games like Resident Evil when you do you best to find and conserve ammo, build up a nice reserve, perfect your aim, then all the grunts take 8 head shots to kill.

holy shit was this programmed in?
i fucking hate that

 

[Danjin44]

I hate in games like Resident Evil when you do you best to find and conserve ammo, build up a nice reserve, perfect your aim, then all the grunts take 8 head shots to kill.

Well Resident Evil is not an RPG, I don't know about RE7 but in original RE remake is less about killing every zombie and more about finding best route so you get less confrontation with the zombies and save up ammo.

 

[Boneless]

Yes yes yes, I hated it in Guild Wars 2, and hated it when it was introduced in WoW.

 

[mansoor1980]

skyrim has enemy level scaling?

 

[DogofWar]

The experiences from different RPGs I remember the best are when I enter a dungeon/location and find super high level enemies that look intimidating, making me run for my life. I then remember the location not just the rest of that playthrough but all subsequent playthroughs as well. Making me very eager to return when I am strong enough to kill the enemy that chased me away.

The Witcher 3 was the latest game were I experienced this, a cave with a giant insect boss and an entire town that was a ghost town filled with high level enemies, some of which I had never seen before riding in there.

I absolutely loathe enemy scaling, takes the sense of adventure when exploring away.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

It can be done properly. Breath of the Wild uses a level-scaling mechanic based on things you've accomplished in the world, so as you progress you'll encounter more powerful Bokoblins and more dangerous Yiga ambushes. It helps keep the world "dangerous" as you reach the mid and late game stages. It's a very old concept. Shmups used something called "rank" to automatically adjust to the well-performing players and make the game more challenging as they progressed, the most infamous example being Battle Garegga.

Not cool: enemy level scaling
Very cool: spawning new and alternative higher level mobs in areas that the player previously cleared out when he/she decides to come back to snoop around

These are the best ways to do it. Scaling existing enemies is lame, but finding new challenges (alternative enemies, etc) scattered around in old areas in surprising places can be great.

 

[Gamer79]

Enemy level scaling does suck. Whats the point of griding for experience or becoming more powerful when the enemy does at the same time? Takes the fun out of leveling up.

 

[Saber]

skyrim has enemy level scaling?

Yes. Some enemies are capped, but it doesn't matter. Enemies attributes/schools scales way better than the player. Not to mention exclusive abilities to reduce your damage and deal extra damage, no magicka regen penalty, etc.

 

[mansoor1980]

Yes. Some enemies are capped, but it doesn't matter. Enemies attributes/schools scales way better than the player. Not to mention exclusive abilities to reduce your damage and deal extra damage, no magicka regen penalty, etc.

i thought it was the higher dif setting that causes an imbalance between enemy damage output and yours

 

[TheContact]

i wrote that i hated enemy scaling here (ff8) but then I went to write about how much I liked the scaling in ESO (and WoW) in that you're not limited to the areas you want to explore, which makes for a more enjoyable experience. so i guess it depends on how it's implemented.

 

[Catphish]

I hate it. I've always hated it. And there are quite a few games I won't bother playing because they use it.

 

[Saber]

i thought it was the higher dif setting that causes an imbalance between enemy damage output and yours

Difficulty changes the damage you deal and receives(includes self damage). All other mechanics remain intact.

 

[Clear]

Depends how its done, its all quite circumstantial.

Consider that player "growth" has 3 fundamental components that scale asymmetrically:

1. Power. The fundamental stats the govern performance efficacy.
2. Skill. The ability of the player to understand how to string together actions for optimal result.
3. Experience. Familiarity with the overall meta of the game world. Recognizing visual/auditory cues, environmental and spatial relationships etc.

The rationale for scaling enemies is that as the player progresses all 3 of the above traits will grow. Scaling enemy power is just a means to prevent the player from steamrolling through the later stages; 2 of the 3 are solely the province of the player, so sometimes I think designers overcompensate by jacking up the one thing they can control - the stats of the enemy. Turning them into damage sponges and upsetting the core combat loop by extending it in TTK terms beyond what is enjoyable.

Days Gone handles this conundrum pretty gracefully. Enemies themselves do not scale,. however new more challenging types are added and numbers (horde size) increases. This actually addresses all 3 aspects in a relatively even-handed manner.

 

[DGrayson]

Ya it depends, generally I dont like it but it was cool in Borderlands 2. I liked how your characters and loot allowed you to stay just ahead of the enemy scaling.

 

[StormCell]

Oblivion really set the shining standard for terrible level scaling. It was around long before, but in Oblivion it damn near ruined the experience for me.

Oblivion is the game where I learned to turn off level scaling via mods. I decided from then on that if I took a wrong turn into a cave and got eaten by a dragon, then so be it. I want that freedom. I want that feeling of not knowing and of discovering.

It simply bugs the shit out of me how certain animals and monsters wouldn't even appear unless you leveled up sufficiently.

Plus, I prefer that Dragon Ball Z-like experience of going full Vegeta on a field of weak enemies waiting for the fiery death from above!

 

[Captain Toad]

Enemy scaling is the reason I can't bring myself to replay Final Fantasy VIII.

 

[SkylineRKR]

FF8’s scaling was really meant to be exploited, though. Take a look at some power-up guides for the game. If you know how to exploit the system (no encounter, petrify enemies to get no Exp, level monsters up and down to get the best drops and magic, etc) the game gets a lot more interesting. And it makes clear pretty early that leveling up too much isn’t the way to go when you realize that using GF and mashing Square to make their attacks stronger isn’t really a viable solution long-term.

The game never makes this clear, that much is true. But it’s really fun when you understand how it works.

Of course, on my first playthrough I didn’t figure this out and had a hard time.

FFVIII is fun if you know what you're doing. Its still doable if you don't and level up, as long as you junction some stuff to your stats. You can beat the game this way just fine. It can be problematic if you freely throw magic as you would use it in other FF games as well. But you can, as long as its not junctioned.

The plus is that once you're an expert at the game, you can mold it to your liking. On PS4 I decided to do a low level run with getting Lionheart on disc one and it worked. Its kind of fun and ridiculous, running around with that weapon and 4000 HP while still at Deling City. Play cards, use card mod and magic refine and you'll get top tier magic while still relatively early in the game. Nothing is really gated, but you need to work for it. I never used a summon in these runs, its too slow and too weak.

In the end I min maxed from low levels with the Tonberry stat bonuses and I created an unstoppable party that easily overpowered Omega Weapon who is lvl 100 anyway.

This keeps FFVIII fun. Because as soon as you enter the map, you can essentially build a powerful party.

 

[RoboFu]

Yup enemy scaling is stupidity incarnate.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

It sucks, but it also breaks games when your character becomes overpowered :-/ but being overpowered is the whole point of leveling up.

I think that if enemies are leveling up they should not do it at the same rate as the characters, and maybe that the first time you go to a specific area this should set this area's difficulty level until the end of the playthrough for that specific region, this way you could always build up to overcome an obstacle.