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IBM kills Cell chip line - Ninthing kills Sony then wakes up sticky, confused

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Sep 27, 2006
9,675
0
0
Wow, all that ranting and raving but this is still bad news!

I mean, IBM DOES discontinue Cell production, Sony HAS sold off it's own manufacturing plants. Does this mean all my PSN games will be naught on PS4?
 

gcubed

Member
Mar 7, 2007
25,836
0
0
Foster City, CA
FoxSpirit said:
Wow, all that ranting and raving but this is still bad news!

I mean, IBM DOES discontinue Cell production, Sony HAS sold off it's own manufacturing plants. Does this mean all my PSN games will be naught on PS4?
*facepalm*
 

Clear

Member
Feb 2, 2009
8,801
1,669
980
Will Sony need better than CELL for PS4?

I don't see games that are CPU-bound anymore, the bottlenecks tend to be bus or I/O based or most commonly GPU load.

Just switching to a CELL with all SPE's available and minor improvements to the PPE core (like the powerXcell line) would most likely be more than enough, unless a whole new paradigm emerges.

Given the way development costs have escalated this generation, how much headroom is there in fact left to go upwards and remain financially viable ?

The reality is that to show off awesome technology to its best advantage costs a lot of time and money.
 

percephone

Neo Member
Dec 5, 2008
174
0
0
Montreal
Clear said:
Will Sony need better than CELL for PS4?

I don't see games that are CPU-bound anymore, the bottlenecks tend to be bus or I/O based or most commonly GPU load.

Just switching to a CELL with all SPE's available and minor improvements to the PPE core (like the powerXcell line) would most likely be more than enough, unless a whole new paradigm emerges.

Given the way development costs have escalated this generation, how much headroom is there in fact left to go upwards and remain financially viable ?

The reality is that to show off awesome technology to its best advantage costs a lot of time and money.
I'm pretty sure, there's at least 2 projected designs for the next playstation. One that is an incremental upgrade to the existing tech, the other to be far out there.
 

gcubed

Member
Mar 7, 2007
25,836
0
0
Foster City, CA
i thought the cell was introduced back when they thought they wouldn't have needed a GPU? Since they found out they were wrong, i'm not sure i'd expect a full blown Cell in the next PS, it only really need be a multicore PowerPC chip
 

stilgar

Member
Feb 8, 2007
6,045
0
0
www.projet-orphee.org
Sony going out of consoles market, the best base for product and standard placement, makes perfect sense.
And I took the time to answer in this very thread. What a victim I am.
 

andycapps

Member
Dec 20, 2006
30,601
0
0
Columbus, OH
minus_273 said:
Gameboy is not a brand, but still.. you're right. Think the junior's point was that Sony isn't going anywhere, and he's correct. Whatever happens next gen, whenever that is, Sony will have a Playstation 4 and it will likely be much cheaper than this round. Kutaragi is gone and won't be spending billions in secret in developing it. Wouldn't be surprised if they go for a more traditional processor in an effort to speed the learning curve up.
 

drakesfortune

Directions: Pull String For Uninformed Rant
Nov 30, 2007
2,534
0
0
Wisconsin
Wes said:
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

This thread is hilarious.

Haha, don't you know, that's what Mario looks like in Germany! :lol :lol

Also, Sony could always throw cell into the PS4 to make it BC. It's probably too costly, but they've done things like throw an emotion engine in the PS3 before, so it's possible. I really hope BC doesn't die, but the truth is, this gen devs realized that if they DO NOT include BC, they can then sell you your games again. THAT is why BC is dead after this gen.
 

drakesfortune

Directions: Pull String For Uninformed Rant
Nov 30, 2007
2,534
0
0
Wisconsin
Binabik15 said:
wat

What I really want in the next-gen cosoles is a decent amount of RAM.
I don't know, he's from Germany and works for a German TV station. So that must be what Mario looks like in Germany, right? :D In Japan Ratchet has big eyebrows, in Germany Mario has a large package and a sexy, hairy chest.
 

UntoldDreams

Member
Feb 6, 2007
2,954
0
0
Supercomputing architecture like Cell is not going away. Period.

The Cell (indeed any recent vector processor architecture) still curb stomps any of our Intel desktop CPU's in math. We have no idea what the future holds but Vector Processors for the PS4 have more than one solution.

They could continue the Cell line. They could switch to Larrabee and abstract things out in the compiler. They could do a bunch of things. There's even an Intel project to add vector processors to their Nehalem Xeon processor line.

http://www.hpcwire.com/features/Compilers-and-More-A-Computing-Larrabee-67032637.html
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10398877-92.html

The Original Poster is writing fiction with a big helping of wishful thinking about the death of Sony.

I know Gabe Newell basically said Supercomputing architecture is unnecessary for gaming but then again I don't think it was a bad decision.

Frankly, I think it was a very efficient usage of CPU power versus cost.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
Jan 24, 2007
19,101
0
0
Nashville, USA
Binabik15 said:
wat

What I really want in the next-gen cosoles is a decent amount of RAM.
I think all current consoles would do a whole lot better with double the RAM. I expect next set of consoles to have 2 or so GB at least.
 

polyh3dron

Banned
Jan 14, 2007
41,969
2
0
Los Angeles, CA
ElFly said:
Maybe this is just IBM saying that they want more of Sony's money to continue R&D on the cell.

I mean, developing it must have been good business for IBM?
They tried something similar with Apple and the PowerPC G5 CPUs and that worked out pretty well now didn't it.
 
Sep 21, 2006
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I just wanted to say that it makes perfect sense for Sony to make life easier for developers by forcing then to dump the work they've done over last 6 years and forcing them to learn a new architecture. I mean why would you ever build upon work already done when you can redo the same work all over again? If Sony simply placed a bigger Cell and any compatible GPU on PS4 it would be compatible with existing PS3 software allowing developers to leverage all the code they've written and all the knowledge they've learned. A console generation is a long time so that's a fuckton of code that would have to be reused instead of writing shiny new code. That's obviously completely insane, there's no way Sony would do something that stupid.
 

Yazus

Member
Aug 9, 2008
1,626
0
755
25
Italy
I don't understand. A 4890 1GB costs around 150$. This is 1/2 of the cost of a PS3.
NOW with this card you can have Crysys at maximum settings with high resolution.
Console gaming doesn't have that high resolutions (some game does, but its like 1%), and they surely don't have all Crysys graphics.

YET, the PS3 costs like a Crysys-able PC, but It can't even play ports at 60fps locked, and it needs christ to develope a game on their fucking CELL bullshit.

Sony needs to get decently priced fucking CPUs and some fucking awesome GPU, RAM thats not 1GB and now they can fucking put it in a box and call it PS4, 399$ at launch. PC Port friendly, Linux Support, easy to develope and they will win
second place in
the next gen
 

goomba

Banned
Jul 16, 2004
7,867
0
0
New Zealand
andycapps said:
Nintendo is the brand.
So by your 'logic' Sony is the brand, not Playstation

Nintendo Gameboy
Sony Playstation

But I see what he was saying, so was just nitpicking words. And Gameboy isn't a brand anymore, not really anyway. DS took it's place and is huge.
So whats to stop Sony coming up with a new brand to replace Playstation ?.
 

polyh3dron

Banned
Jan 14, 2007
41,969
2
0
Los Angeles, CA
andycapps said:
Gameboy is not a brand, but still.. you're right. Think the junior's point was that Sony isn't going anywhere, and he's correct. Whatever happens next gen, whenever that is, Sony will have a Playstation 4 and it will likely be much cheaper than this round. Kutaragi is gone and won't be spending billions in secret in developing it. Wouldn't be surprised if they go for a more traditional processor in an effort to speed the learning curve up.
Speed up the learning curve? Devs have spent about 4 years now learning how to use the cell. To go in another direction for PS4 and kill BC wouldn't make much sense after all the time and money Sony has invested in the cell.
 

Mandoric

Banned
Jan 6, 2005
7,529
0
0
Yazus said:
I don't understand. A 4890 1GB costs around 150$. This is 1/2 of the cost of a PS3.
NOW with this card you can have Crysys at maximum settings with high resolution.
Console gaming doesn't have that high resolutions (some game does, but its like 1%), and they surely don't have all Crysys graphics.

YET, the PS3 costs like a Crysys-able PC, but It can't even play ports at 60fps locked, and it needs christ to develope a game on their fucking CELL bullshit.

Sony needs to get decently priced fucking CPUs and some fucking awesome GPU, RAM thats not 1GB and now they can fucking put it in a box and call it PS4, 399$ at launch. PC Port friendly, Linux Support, easy to develope and they will win
second place in
the next gen
I know Crysis is primarily GPU-bound, but I still wouldn't be too optimistic about its framerate after spending $150 for a 4890, $75 for a PSU that will run it without catching fire, on the kind of CPU and RAM that can be crammed into the remaining $75 with a case, HDD, optical drive, input devices, and so on.
 

Vinci

Danish
Oct 12, 2007
22,075
0
0
United States
Every time I think we might be making strides to get away from stupidly high levels of fanboyism, GAF comes right back around and shows me that yes, I was dreaming and morons like the OP and 'PlayStation is the strongest brand' guy are here to stay.
 

andycapps

Member
Dec 20, 2006
30,601
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0
Columbus, OH
goomba said:
So by your 'logic' Sony is the brand, not Playstation

Nintendo Gameboy
Sony Playstation



So whats to stop Sony coming up with a new brand to replace Playstation ?. I think they should.
That is my point actually, Nintendo doesn't keep the same branding like Sony does. Well, they come out with a Gameboy, iterate on it to become Gameboy Advance, Gameboy Advance SP, Gameboy Advance micro, etc.. But they don't call all their handhelds Gameboys anymore.

Also, give me a bit of a break, I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. Really tired now and still drinking my coffee. :lol

polyh3dron said:
Speed up the learning curve? Devs have spent about 4 years now learning how to use the cell. To go in another direction for PS4 and kill BC wouldn't make much sense after all the time and money Sony has invested in the cell.
I see what you're saying and you have a point. But having a more conventional processor in the PS3 like in the 360 would definitely make it easier on devs in doing multiplatform releases.
Plus people could finally play Valve games on Playstation if they don't have a PC
 

Kanik

Sonic handles my blue balls
Jun 15, 2009
9,631
1
905
Jax said:
OMFG someone check out his post history. see if you don't see a pattern....

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
The collection of all his posts are truly a work of art.

I may just subscribe to his blog for more!
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
13,509
1,671
1,955
andycapps said:
That is my point actually, Nintendo doesn't keep the same branding like Sony does. Well, they come out with a Gameboy, iterate on it to become Gameboy Advance, Gameboy Advance SP, Gameboy Advance micro, etc.. But they don't call all their handhelds Gameboys anymore.

Also, give me a bit of a break, I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. Really tired now and still drinking my coffee. :lol



I see what you're saying and you have a point. But having a more conventional processor in the PS3 like in the 360 would definitely make it easier on devs in doing multiplatform releases.
Plus people could finally play Valve games on Playstation if they don't have a PC
Programming CELL actually helps devs IMHO...

The PC with higher core counts, bigger vector co-processors (AVX = 8 SIMD lanes), highly parallel processing capabilities exposed in the GPU through DX11 DirectCompute, CUDA, OpenCL, etc... is going to go through the same learning curve PS3 developers had to go through.

IMHO, learning how to make CELL fly makes you a better programmer over-all. Learning about focusing on data, dividing source data in independent chunks of fixed (and easily cachable) size, trying to balance data transfers of said chunks/work batches with enough arithmetic ops, etc... is a luxury that PC programmers were able to avoid in the past, but that is changing on PC's too.
 

Binabik15

Member
May 18, 2008
7,164
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0
BaWü, Deutschland
AndyD said:
I think all current consoles would do a whole lot better with double the RAM. I expect next set of consoles to have 2 or so GB at least.
Low end gpus today have more or at least as much RAM than the current consoles, think about it :lol

I don´t want to bump this thread, but I do want a gpu comparable to a Ati 5xxx and 3 or 4 gb system RAM for the next gen consoles. And HDD installs or a much faster blu-ray drive for streaming.

Oh, what Naughty Dog could do with such hardware :D
 

H_Prestige

Banned
Aug 2, 2008
15,476
0
0
Panajev2001a said:
Yes :). That's what I am thinking too.
I think that's the smartest solution. They can't keep using exotic architectures because it completely breaks compatibility across generations. Better to make the switch to PC hardware now and only have to deal with one odd man out (ps3) while making future console transitions smooth and easy. Look how easy it will be for MS next gen. Sony needs to get into their heads that it's software that sells systems. The less that hardware gets in the way of software compatibility, the better.

Moreover, with an Intel CPU and LRB, might it still be possible to write an emulator for ps3. I don't know much of this, but from my understanding the reasons ps2 emulation is impossible on ps3 is because of how different the ps2 GPU was compared to RSX, combined with ps2 games being coded to the metal. Would such issues apply to ps3 emulation? Moreover, could such a system finally emulate ps2?
 

-PXG-

Banned
May 20, 2008
25,509
0
0
NJ
So, guy posts sensationalist, biased article, in an attempt to advertise his own blog, and ends up getting banned. How is this funny?
 

Zzoram

Member
Apr 17, 2007
33,496
0
0
CrushDance said:
:lol

What gofreak said.

But here's the problem, everyone has complained about how difficult it is to develop for CELL. Who's to say Sony won't ditch it and go for a different CPU to appease developers? Personally I'd like to see the 32SPE Cell. We either lose BC again or make developers happy, pretty obvious which one they'd pick.
I say 2015 launch with 64SPE Cell would make me way happier. I don't want a new generation in 2-3 years.
 

thuway

Member
Feb 25, 2008
10,994
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If I'm reading this right, this means IBM will not continue to design a new Cell processor, but this doesn't prevent Sony or Toshiba for pursuing a 32 SPE Cell 2? So what are the chances of us seeing a Cell 2 or a Cell variant processor in the future?
 

Ninja Moomin

Banned
Dec 8, 2008
3,131
0
0
gofreak said:
This almost as bad as the OP albeit a touch more articulate. It's predicated on the same assertion - that Sony can no longer use Cell if IBM stops using it.

There is absolutely nothing stopping Sony from just sticking another variant of Cell into the PS4 if they want to do that.

IBM's own plans for the chip have nothing to do with that. Anymore than their own plans, or lack thereof, for Xenon or ATi's plans for DX7 hardware have anything to do with Microsoft's or Nintendo's ability to use that hardware or variants of it in their designs, for example.

I don't know if Sony will use Cell again in PS4, but saying they cannot is silly.

If they choose not to use Cell then I would wonder about BC and how they'll manage that. It'd obviously be a much greater challenge, much less straightforward than just putting another Cell design in there. But we shall see what happens.

I didn't say that they cannot i said that if they don't there's issues... and as things stand no IBM = No Cell.

I can't see how they would stomach the cost of the R&D to produce a new CELL variant if a cheaper solution can be found off the shelf.

Particularly as after the super-costly and unprofitable intro of the PS3 they are likely to be under huge pressure to produce the new system more efficiently.
 

badcrumble

Member
May 12, 2006
26,793
4
0
-PXG- said:
So, guy posts sensationalist, biased article, in an attempt to advertise his own blog, and ends up getting banned. How is this funny?
you pretty much summed up why it's funny. also, see thread title.
 

andycapps

Member
Dec 20, 2006
30,601
0
0
Columbus, OH
Panajev2001a said:
Programming CELL actually helps devs IMHO...

The PC with higher core counts, bigger vector co-processors (AVX = 8 SIMD lanes), highly parallel processing capabilities exposed in the GPU through DX11 DirectCompute, CUDA, OpenCL, etc... is going to go through the same learning curve PS3 developers had to go through.

IMHO, learning how to make CELL fly makes you a better programmer over-all. Learning about focusing on data, dividing source data in independent chunks of fixed (and easily cachable) size, trying to balance data transfers of said chunks/work batches with enough arithmetic ops, etc... is a luxury that PC programmers were able to avoid in the past, but that is changing on PC's too.
It helps them in the long run, but remember those early port jobs? Some of them were just horrible. They're finally getting to the point where the differences are pretty negligible, but the RSX and split RAM still seem to be hurting some ports where they just try to plop the code over and don't optimize for the system. But yeah, I do think you get better long term results out of a complex system like Cell, but it's just the time it takes to get to the point where devs understand the architecture and throw more and more crap at it. Cell is definitely proving to be very powerful, at this point though, if it's fully exploited.