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[GigaDrive]

I'm sure this was discussed to death back in 2002-2003, but now it's my turn. I just got Super Mario Sunshine last night. (super super late to the water cannon fest)..... I really like the art direction and visual style of SMS. it's just right. nevermind the low-end textures. but i think the game would've been visually better had it been locked at 60fps.
what gives? Cube has the power to do games with better graphics at twice the framerate, if pushed properly. I wonder why Nintendo decided to cut the framerate down to 30fps. we found that out sometime after E3 2002 i think. the SpaceWorld 2001 showing was 60fps as was the E3 2002 demo. I remember seeing 60fps SMS on CNN a few times, even after the game released!

would you kill for a demo, beta or whatever pre-final or early version of SMS was,
at 60fps? i would!

please post some vids of 60fps version.

p.s. I hope we don't wait 4 more years for another mario. m64 ------> sms = 6 years.

can Nintendo get "Mario 128" out for Gamecube AND get one ready for Revolutions launch ? tall order.

 

[shibbs]

Cant link you to the vids, but i really should pick up SMS again.
I think im still stuck at mini-level with the sandbird and 8 red coins. God that pissed me of after a while.

 

[Stryder]

*sigh* whilst listening to the big band concert I was compelled to play this game again, I go to pop it into the cube and found out that after lending it to a friend they had returned it with a different game in it instead! grrr.

yeah, SMS didn't get the love it deserved I don't think, it received a lot of flack if I remember correctly.

 

[ThirstyFly]

I think im still stuck at mini-level with the sandbird and 8 red coins. God that pissed me of after a while.

Oh no, you had to go and mention that level. Here come the nightmares again!

 

[Gattsu25]

haha, I loved that level. (the non-waterpack levels were great, too)

SMS gets too much hate

 

[TheGreenGiant]

The sandbird level wasn't even that hard. You just had to time your jumps. I found some of the old school levels super challenging and fun. SMS rocks. Been saying it since I played the demo, right through when I was playing it and even now. it ROCKS

 

[dark10x]

Great game, but it really starts to fall down as you approach the end missions. The first half of the game was fantastic, though.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

Dark10X, I was sure that you would have started this thread, especially in light of your "Gamecube Vactation."

Still 10? !!


Still 10? !!

 

[ge-man]

It would've been nice at 60fps, but if cutting the framerate meant something more solid, then they made the right choice. For all the simplicity of the art design and texture work, there's still a lot of non-trivial things going. For instance, while Flipper could easily shade the water, Geeko is still needed to do all the work to make character movement in the water realistic. Also, even at this point in this generation I would consider SMS to be one of the busier looking games of this gen--again Geeko has to do all this work.

Time constraints on development time might have been and issue as well, but I don't know anything about EAD schedule say if that was the case with SMS. In the end, I happier that the runs 30fps 90% of time as oppossed to running 60fps half the time.

 

[Red Dolphin]

I don't think this game was ever going to live up to Mario 64 (at least for me as I was just totally floored by Mario 64) but it wasn't too bad. The two things that I didn't like was the lack of variety in the environments (themes like snow, fire, etc) and most of the blue coins weren't fun to get. The music didn't do much for me either. Mario 64 music ROCKED. I particually like the Bowser stage music.

 

[jedimike]

You're taking the 60fps thing way too far. First off, you can't tell by looking at videos or CNN if the game is 30 or 60. Secondly, it's a damn platformer. 30fps is just fine.

 

[ced]

I got to the end but quit out of frustration trying to drive the fucking canoe with the waterpack. I got so mad and pissed about running into something and that was it, dead.

Other than that I enjoyed it, and untill now I didnt know it wasnt running at a crisp 60 fps.

 

[LuckyBrand]

I think Super Mario Sunshine gets alot of hate as it doesnt seem to fit in with the traditional of the typical Mario game...

also, Mario 64 was a game that sold systems, and pushed an era.. it will also be a classic game that many love.. Super Mario Sunshine will do none of those things.

 

[Sai]

... I thought it was 60fps. I really don't notice stuff like that unless it's drilled into my head prior to a game's release, or if the framerate is horribly inconsistant.

S'been a while since I've played SMS. It really did recieve too much hate, I thought it was a great game.

 

[dark10x]

You're taking the 60fps thing way too far. First off, you can't tell by looking at videos or CNN if the game is 30 or 60. Secondly, it's a damn platformer. 30fps is just fine.

Yes, you CAN tell if something is 60 fps on broadcast TV (though, as usual, it depends on how the video is being filmed).

Secondly, because it IS a platformer 60 fps is more important than usual; 30 fps is not "just fine".

 

[Tenguman]

The last 3rd of SMS really dragged the game down hardcore. Around shine 50 (out of ~70 -not counting all coins), the tasks to get stars started to turn from fun-level-design to just cheap level-design to get you playing longer. The first 2-3rds of the game, while difficult, were still a blast. But you could tell they ran out of time (or interest) and started to throw in some cheap level designs in there at the end. For instance, who ever heard of a boat suddenly sinking, killing Mario, when it's slightly tapped into a wall? That's just one example of the cheap shit the designers pulled to make the game harder.

The bowser level at the end was probably the most disspointing final level in all of mario games. When it's a mario game, and I'm stearing a wooden boat in lava for MOST of the final dungeon, there's something very wrong.

 

[ge-man]

I think time constraints reall did hurt this game. They probably could even manage a 60fps if they had the time. It's obvious Nintendo did not want to make the same mistake of delaying first party games to the point of creating a disgruntled audience. Unfortunately, they created a disgruntled audience by making first party games that are not as good as the ones they got on the N64. With Pikmin 2 coming up soon and the new Zelda on the horizon I think the EAD side of Nintendo is starting to find a groove. Hopefully this will carry through into the next gen.

 

[jett]

You're taking the 60fps thing way too far. First off, you can't tell by looking at videos or CNN if the game is 30 or 60.

Yes, you can. I actually watched the CNN SMS reel and I could tell that it was running at 60fps.

 

[MetaKnight]

Cant link you to the vids, but i really should pick up SMS again.
I think im still stuck at mini-level with the sandbird and 8 red coins. God that pissed me of after a while.

Stay on neck when it turns and you'll do fine.

 

[BuddyC]

Yes, you can. I actually watched the CNN SMS reel and I could tell that it was running at 60fps.

i'm lost. how can you determine if something's running at 60 fps on CNN when CNN airs at what, 24, 30 fps?

 

[Gregory]

i'm lost. how can you determine if something's running at 60 fps on CNN when CNN airs at what, 24, 30 fps?

TV broadcast is 60fps (fields per second). Same as games running at 60fps.

 

[GigaDrive]

It would've been nice at 60fps, but if cutting the framerate meant something more solid, then they made the right choice. For all the simplicity of the art design and texture work, there's still a lot of non-trivial things going. For instance, while Flipper could easily shade the water, Geeko is still needed to do all the work to make character movement in the water realistic. Also, even at this point in this generation I would consider SMS to be one of the busier looking games of this gen--again Geeko has to do all this work.

Time constraints on development time might have been and issue as well, but I don't know anything about EAD schedule say if that was the case with SMS. In the end, I happier that the runs 30fps 90% of time as oppossed to running 60fps half the time.

nice post. I pretty much agree. I'll bet if given another 6 months, putting SMS into early 2003, it could've been made to run at 60fps.

30fps isnt too bad. especially with the bright CGIish style (its not CGI level but it is in that direction). imagine the leap from Mario64 to Sunshine all over again, on N5-Revolution

 

[jedimike]

TV broadcast is 60fps (fields per second). Same as games running at 60fps.

TV is broadcast at 24 fps, but filmed at 60 fps. That is why when you film PC monitors (typically 60Hz) you'll see scan lines when you play it back. So when you film a game at 60 fps and the game is running at 60 fps and then you broadcast it at 24 fps, you get a big fucking mess.

That is why you can not accurately judge a games framerate by watching video clips.

 

[GigaDrive]

You're taking the 60fps thing way too far. First off, you can't tell by looking at videos or CNN if the game is 30 or 60. Secondly, it's a damn platformer. 30fps is just fine.

jedimike, what you said there is just absolutely not true. you CAN tell from a television broadcast if a game is 30fps or 60fps. and you can tell even from an internet clip, if the clip is of decent quality and not jerky. even if we dismiss internet clips, you can certainly tell from CNN footage that SMS was 60fps.

30fps, while passable, is only half as smooth as 60fps. platformers could definitally use 60fps. look at J&D1 & 2 on PS2. or Sonic Adv 2 on Dreamcast or GC. 60fps is GOOD. 30fps is 'okay'but 60fps is that much better. IMO and in the opinion of many gamers.

didn't mean to 'blast' ya jedimike, but i feel strongly about my opinion add you are certainly entitled to yours, though

 

[jett]

I used to think the same, that you couldn't tell that a game was running at 60fps on a TV. But Leguna of all people proved me wrong, by telling me to record a tape of a 60fps game. I recorded Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 on a VHS tape and you could sure as shit tell the difference between them.

 

[Gregory]

You have it wrong, jedimike.

"The frame rate for broadcast video in the U.S. is 30 frames per second (or more precisely, 60 fields per second). "

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-PY6d7W6zyOE/infolib/homelib/DVD-glossary.html

 

[sc0la]

Ill take its 30fps for the awesome draw distance that game pushes. Nothing lik climbing up one of the towers, looking across the entire hub world, then rocket jumping into the air to dive down into the ocean below. awesome.

 

[jedimike]

jedimike, what you said there is just absolutely not true. you CAN tell from a television broadcast if a game is 30fps or 60fps. and you can tell even from an internet clip, if the clip is of decent quality and not jerky. even if we dismiss internet clips, you can certainly tell from CNN footage that SMS was 60fps.

30fps, while passable, is only half as smooth as 60fps. platformers could definitally use 60fps. look at J&D1 & 2 on PS2. or Sonic Adv 2 on Dreamcast or GC. 60fps is GOOD. 30fps is 'okay'but 60fps is that much better. IMO and in the opinion of many gamers.

It's funny that this opinion was only formed after the PC video card wars... before that no one gave a shit. There are some people that it effects, I know Dark10x is one of them, but most of us don't care one way or the other. For the people that do care, most only do so because it's the cool gaming phrase of the moment. 90% of those people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 30 and 60 anyway.

... but I've been through the whole 60/30 debate several times before. I just think a lot of ignorant people use the excuse way too often. 30fps is not the downfall of gaming and is not the reason a game is bad.

edit: I'm not blasting either, I just think there are so many more important things to complain about or praise when evaluating a game.

 

[GigaDrive]

60fps is not a cool gaming phrase at all. it's very relavant to visual as well as gameplay.

all of those 60fps arcade racing games and fighting games would be alot different at 30fps.

your Tekkens and Virtua Fighters would be nowhere near as precise gameplay wise. metroid prime at 30fps would seen very different. as would mario kart. there are a trillion other examples... but i will leave it at that.

 

[BuddyC]

that's right, keep talking

*cull cull cull*

 

[dark10x]

jedimike, what you said there is just absolutely not true. you CAN tell from a television broadcast if a game is 30fps or 60fps. and you can tell even from an internet clip, if the clip is of decent quality and not jerky. even if we dismiss internet clips, you can certainly tell from CNN footage that SMS was 60fps.

Now that's perhaps a bit misconstrued...

Playback of 60 fps video is certainly possible on the PC...but the size requirements mean that 99% of the game videos you can download will never be displayed as such. TV broadcasts, on the other hand, very often display 60 fps images (fields). You can often find them in various logos and CG animations however you can also obviously see whether or not a game is running at 60 fps.

 

[beerbelly]

No. In fact I hope all Nintendo games will be 30fps (save for the occasional fighting, racing and sports game). Some of us get nauseated by 60fps games. Don't take our adventure games away too

 

[dark10x]

No. In fact I hope all Nintendo games will be 30fps (save for the occasional fighting, racing and sports game). Some of us get nauseated by 60fps games. Don't take our adventure games away too

???

Nauseated? I don't see how...