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If Gamepass is bad for the industry then why has nobody noticed besides GAF?

DanielsM

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the funny thing is Sony don't get all the revenue from the game, retailers get a big portion that revenue . so they not getting as much as you think.

its really funny that you are against a consumer friendly product that the Lead Xbox guy Phil Spencer says is helping sell more games and DLC for the Developers.
I'm not sure what that means. Sony's revenues are in their SEC filings. PS Now only represents about .003 of gaming revenues at Sony. Its small revenue stream to see if there is a market, nobody is going to get rich renting games. Even if you did, you're just moving money from one pocket to another.

helping sell more games and DLC for the Developers
Not sure what that means to my comments. If the purpose of game pass is to make it cheaper for gamers, how is that a good thing?

I'm so confused.
 
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HanBrolo

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I don't think people are angry, or if they are it isn't over differences of opinions. It more that it just gets tiresome when debates just go in circles as people on both sides just keep restating the same arguments ad nausuem, never giving and inch and it's beomces a pissing match to see who gets the "last word." And doing so isn't a "win," but just annoying the other side enough that people give up and stop replying.

Frankly, this is a thread that everyone on all sides should just step away from as there's nothing else to be said and no one still participating is going to change their mind. This debate seems fruitless to me though as no one knows how this is going to pan out and how gaming is going to adapt to younger generations who are used to cheap streaming services and spending all or most of their gaming time on free games like Fortnite age and are the key 18-35 market. Something has to change though as $60+ games being the standard isn't going to fly when it's those current kids/teens who are the bulk of the most important market. But none of us know what changes will be attempted or which ones will succeed. All we cna do is speculate and offer our thoughts, and it's been a while since anyone--myself included--has added a new thought to this thread.

If some of you are still having fun rehashing the same points over and over, by all means keep it going. :D To each their own, I've said and read all I care to for now.
 
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diffusionx

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Again your pushing your own agenda against facts of an Exec Phil Spencer who see's the figures and knows what he is talking about. if you can produce anything of evidence of anything you say in terms of Gamepass is not making money or that it is driving sales down or it is a small revenue stream I will stand corrected. I just want to see the facts as you are seeing them
He does "see the figures", but it is important to note that he is in charge of executing a strategy and will say what needs to be said to that end. He should not be trusted simply because he sees numbers we do not. He has an agenda and is paid and employed based on his ability to execute it.

Part of the problem is that we don't have evidence because Phil Spencer and his team will not release it for analysis.
 
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phil_t98

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I'm not sure what that means. Sony's revenues are in their SEC filings. PS Now only represents about .003 of gaming revenues at Sony. Its small revenue stream to see if there is a market, nobody is going to get rich renting games. Even if you did, you're just moving money from one pocket to another.



Not sure what that means to my comments. If the purpose of game pass is to make it cheaper for gamers, how is that a good thing?

I'm so confused.
Again Phil Spencer has stated that there is a trend of people with Gamepass that they are buying more games.

As for cheaper games you think that is a bad thing when people are buying them and the DLC? the second hand market has made games massively cheap and the developers get no money from resale value.
 

DanielsM

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Again Phil Spencer has stated that there is a trend of people with Gamepass that they are buying more games.

As for cheaper games you think that is a bad thing when people are buying them and the DLC? the second hand market has made games massively cheap and the developers get no money from resale value.
Again, you have a reading deficiency - get gud. I never said anything was good or bad.

Again, I asked a question, is the purpose of game pass to make gaming cheaper for gamers?

developers get no money from resale value.
If the purpose is to make developers money, you buy their games when they come out... digital sales are going to be the most margin for them, generally speaking.

You're talking in circles.
 
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phil_t98

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He does "see the figures", but it is important to note that he is in charge of executing a strategy and will say what needs to be said to that end. He should not be trusted simply because he sees numbers we do not. He has an agenda and is paid and employed based on his ability to execute it.

Part of the problem is that we don't have evidence because Phil Spencer and his team will not release it for analysis.
As somebody pointed out in another thread Execs aint allowed to lie about a company and there figures. I mean it does happen and Sony do it to but it gets overlooked when Sony says something
 

demigod

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no goal post moving, you say Phil lied about sales data I haven't seen anywhere that sales data exists
It's not that you don't see the data exists, it's that you chose not to believe it. Gears 5 sold a fraction of what Gears 4 did in UK.
 

phil_t98

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Again, you have a reading deficiency - get gud. I never said anything was good or bad.

Again, I asked a question, is the purpose of game pass to make gaming cheaper for gamers?
Coarse it is, is PS NOW not to make gaming cheaper to?
 

phil_t98

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It's not that you don't see the data exists, it's that you chose not to believe it. Gears 5 sold a fraction of what Gears 4 did in UK.
At retail or digital? there has been a trend of growing sales in digital games since 4 was released a few years ago
 

DanielsM

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Coarse it is, is PS NOW not to make gaming cheaper to?
I look at as a small revenue stream, no I don't think PS Now makes games cheaper generally speaking... people really don't need access to all these games. Obviously a small select few people will subscribe... small revenue stream. Its not something you build a big business model on though.

The margin on renting games is not going to be good, its a supplemental revenue stream.
 
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phil_t98

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I look at as a small revenue stream, no I don't think PS Now makes games cheaper generally speaking... people really don't need access to all these games. Obviously a small select few people will subscribe... small revenue stream. Its not something you build a big business model on though.

The margin on renting games is not going to be good.
Again where are you getting the figure for renting games is not going to be good?
 

DanielsM

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Again where are you getting the figure for renting games is not going to be good?
Because nobody is going to pay anything for it, which is why Spider-Man sales will be $1-2b in a year and PS Now will be $50-60m for all the games in the library.

Old games are not worth anything, and nobody needs access to 100s of games... they only play a few a year and you can buy them cheap. Small revenue stream, nothing wrong with it... but not a big money maker.
 
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phil_t98

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Because nobody is going to pay anything for it, which is why Spider-Man sales will be $1-2b in a year and PS Now will be $50-60m for all the games in the library.

Old games are not worth anything, and nobody needs access to 100s of games... they only play a few a year and you can buy them cheap. Small revenue stream, nothing wrong with it... but not a big money maker.
But the point is that it isn’t all old games

Again I asked you a question about were you are getting your facts of small margins but fail to give any other than your own guess work
 

diffusionx

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As somebody pointed out in another thread Execs aint allowed to lie about a company and there figures. I mean it does happen and Sony do it to but it gets overlooked when Sony says something
This is important. They cannot intentionally mislead people, like saying "we have 10 million subscribers" when they have 1 million. But they also don't really have to say they have 1 million subscribers. And of course they can describe their strategy to get subscribers in all manners. Data often says more than one thing, it's just a fact of life, so how the exec frames it is important.

Executives have a LOT of leeway, it really depends to what extent the shareholders hold them accountable. I'm not sure exactly what Phil has said about buying games with GamePass, I don't know his exact words, but the context is really important.
 
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demigod

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At retail or digital? there has been a trend of growing sales in digital games since 4 was released a few years ago
Gears 4 placed 3rd including digital on NPD. Gears 5 placed 7th barely beating Code Vein. But go ahead and keep spinning.
 
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DanielsM

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But the point is that it isn’t all old games

Again I asked you a question about were you are getting your facts of small margins but fail to give any other than your own guess work
Well, its right there... Sony sells one fucking game and has sales of $1b, the other one requires countless contracts, distribution, countless downloads.... distributing fund etc to 200-800 devs/publishers and only has revenue of $50-60m.

I'm not sure what your point is, game rental is going to be a very small business... there is nothing wrong with it... just like always, but sales will be where the money is made. Video games are front loaded, nobody is going to make ton off of video games either sales or rentals once they are older.... small revenue streams.

I'm not sure what your point is... old games are worth shit. Video games are front load first 3-6 months in sales, generally, that's where the money is made... nothing wrong with rentals but nobody is going to get rich off of game rentals.
 
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phil_t98

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Well, its right there... Sony sells one fucking game and has sales of $1b, the other one requires countless contracts, distribution, countless downloads.... distributing fund etc to 200-800 devs/publishers and only has revenue of $50-60m.

I'm not sure what your point is, game rental is going to be a very small business... there is nothing wrong with it... just like always, but sales will be where the money is made. Video games are front loaded, nobody is going to make ton off of video games either sales or rentals once they are older.... small revenue streams.
So if you search this very site you will see that last may there was an article that had found out that gamepass had 9.5 million subscribers and since then gamepass has grown more. That’s over a billion in revenue right there. I will let you look for it
 

DanielsM

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So if you search this very site you will see that last may there was an article that had found out that gamepass had 9.5 million subscribers and since then gamepass has grown more. That’s over a billion in revenue right there. I will let you look for it
If so that would have shown up in their financials, both content and services have been going negative. I would call someone an idiot for paying $119.88 a year for that, my guess 95%+ paid $1. Microsoft has not released figures on subscribers, they don't even do that with XBLG. My guess they have 15-20m XBLG subscribers at $40-60 annual, which would be in the same percentage as PS+.
 
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phil_t98

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If so that would have shown up in their financials, both content and services have been going negative. I would call someone an idiot for paying $119.88 a year for that, my guess 95%+ paid $1.

Microsoft has not released figures on subscribers, they don't even do that with XBLG.

My guess they have 15-20m XBLG subscribers at $40-60 annual, which would be in the same percentage as PS+.
Again there was an 8% rise in revenue

But hey your guess work is better than facts eh
 

DanielsM

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Again there was an 8% rise in revenue

But hey your guess work is better than facts eh
No there wasn't not in gaming, you're just making stuff up now.

Making up stuff make you feel good?


Xbox content and services revenue decreased 11% (down 9% in constant currency)
If there were huge growth in Game Pass you would see it in the service area, like they do on the business side the last 10 years... they would have to see huge swings up.

The funny thing is, they even try and hide those numbers by giving percentages instead of raw numbers... its deception. They'll change the metrics soon so we won't even be able to carry that forward, all new numbers. I would have to questions one's sanity for paying $119.88 for Game Pass.

(I'm about to put you on ignore)
 
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phil_t98

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No there wasn't not in gaming, you're just making stuff up now.

Making up stuff make you feel good?




If there were huge growth in Game Pass you would see it in the service area, like they do on the business side the last 10 years... they would have to see huge swings up.

The funny thing is, they even try and hide those numbers by giving percentages instead of raw numbers... its deception. They'll change the metrics soon so we won't even be able to carry that forward, all new numbers. I would have to questions one's sanity for paying $119.88 for Game Pass.

(I'm about to put you on ignore)
Not making things up I got it wrong, happy to be pointed out where I am wrong

But as I said there is the figure of 9.5 mill subscribers and phil saying gamepass is continuing to grow so your figure of 50-60 mill a year is also made up 👍🏻
 

DanielsM

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Not making things up I got it wrong, happy to be pointed out where I am wrong

But as I said there is the figure of 9.5 mill subscribers and phil saying gamepass is continuing to grow so your figure of 50-60 mill a year is also made up 👍🏻
I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, is English your first language?

You're not making any sense.

They probably have 15-25m XBLG users but no they don't have fucking 9.5m people paying $119.88 a year for game pass, it would have shown up big in the revenue numbers... services actually have been in decline.
 
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phil_t98

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I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, is English your first language?

You're not making any sense.

They probably have 15-25m XBLG users but no they don't have fucking 9.5m people paying $119.88 a year for game pass, it would have shown up big in the revenue numbers... services actually have been in decline.
again making figures up, go check how many Xbox Live users there is.
 

wolffy71

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Fortnite and Apex have proved the money isn't even just in "sales". There's multiple ways to extract revenue and thats just gonna continue. WOW has something 10 million subs at $15. Different strokes for different folks.
 

DanielsM

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again making figures up, go check how many Xbox Live users there is.
I would say there is 15-25m Xbox Live Gold users at a rate of 30-50%, probably a little less than 20m users at $40-60 annually if I were to really guess. The attachment on PS+ is around 36% as Sony gives numbers. You don't have 9.5m people paying for Game Pass at $119.88, the service numbers would be growing at double and triple digits, the service numbers have been declining.

Again, is English not your first language? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
 
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JCK75

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I think it will be bad like Netflix was bad, you just get everything you want at a low price, then everyone else is like "Why am I giving you my content when I could be making all of this money" and then we have 135 games subscription services.
 
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phil_t98

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The only one putting up facts and figures is me. :messenger_tears_of_joy: I'm going to have to put you on ignore for being a troll, have a nice life or whatever it is you do.

There is no facts lol you are guessing how many Xbox live gold users there are
 

wolffy71

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For a company to have "continued declining sales" I would expect more than one down year. Most of which MS is attributing to the new generation on the way. I wonder if Microsoft is the only company with "declining sales" Maybe we could google Sony and see if its revenue was declining as well.
 
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phil_t98

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For a company to have "continued declining sales" I would expect more than one down year. Most of which MS is attributing to the new generation on the way. I wonder if Microsoft is the only company with "declining sales" Maybe we could google Sony and see if its revenue was declining as well.
Sony's PlayStation 4 sales were down 25 percent year on year this holiday season, with the company shipping 6.1 million units for a total of 108.9 million as of the end of 2019. ... A total of 14.7 million PS4 units were shipped in 2019, down from 17.7 million in 2018.
 
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DanielsM

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The future is subscriptions with tons of games heavily featuring MTX.
Technically, most of the large publishers already have subscriptions, its just makes so little revenue that its almost insignificant. For company like EA it would be almost an impossibility to generate what they generate off of sales via subscriptions. Of course, the free to play can work if you're one of the popular ones with mtx, but I wouldn't really call that a subscription. Of course, some of the gambling has added to some of the devs/pubs revenue streams i.e. lootboxes.

I mean after like 6 years and everyone bitch'n about no EA Access on PS4, they only have like 3.5m subscribers. They really don't even talk about it during their financials that I can see on a regular basis as its such a small revenue stream. I mean there is nothing wrong with it, but its not going to be able to take over sales.

To me the whole Netflix of gaming is BaaS (Bullshit as a Service) conjured up by Phil to keep his job a few years longer because the axeman had arrived at this door and he had to come up with something.
 
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Cubamus Prime

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It's worth keeping in mind that a lot of devs that are supporting GamePass are only doing so with older content that's relatively low-risk. For newer games, Microsoft is paying an insane amount of money - more than is probably sustainable long-term.
 

VertigoOA

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It's not that you don't see the data exists, it's that you chose not to believe it. Gears 5 sold a fraction of what Gears 4 did in UK.
and that’s because of gamespass... it has a healthier player base than Gears 4.

Sales data has become insignificant compared to the ongoing strength of its playerbase. It’s all about the number of players sticking with the game month after month, and year after year. That’s easily the most important stat when it comes to games who’s greatest strengths are its multiplayer community.
 
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MacReady13

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I'm real old school. If possible, I like to own physical copies of my games. If there is a good deal, I will purchase digital copies (no choice on PC). I fucking hate streaming and the idea of it makes me real shitty the "industry" has decided this is the way we are gheading. Games Pass is along the same lines as streaming for me- why rent games when you can own them? Why not just release demo's for all games like we used to have on the 360? Why is that so hard to do? Devs make a tonne of money and we get a small chunk of the game to see what we like. This business of not owning anything (movies, songs, games) all via streaming (netflix) or renting (that stupid way to play NES and SNES games on switch and games pass) is just a terrible future... IMO.
 

DanielsM

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I fucking hate streaming and the idea of it makes me real shitty the "industry" has decided this is the way we are gheading.
I'm going out on a limb and say you probably don't have much to worry about.

03.24.09 <----:messenger_tears_of_joy:

July 7, 2012 <----:messenger_tears_of_joy:

Just rinse and repeat, you can go look at the articles last year about Stadia, yet the world continues to turn.
 
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MacReady13

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I'm going out on a limb and say you probably don't have much to worry about.

03.24.09 <----:messenger_tears_of_joy:

July 7, 2012 <----:messenger_tears_of_joy:

Just rinse and repeat, you can go look at the articles last year about Stadia, yet the world continues to turn.
I understand all of that, but netflix wasn't around in 2012 like today. Neither was spotify. These greedy fuckers see the money those companies make and want some of that. Once games pass, nintendo's terrible way of offering up old games, xbox's awful (IMO) games pass and possibility of sony doing similar next gen, I'm fucking OUT!
 
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DanielsM

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I understand all of that, but netflix wasn't around in 2012 like today. Neither was spotify. These greedy fuckers see the money those companies make and want some of that. Once games pass, nintendo's terrible way of offering up old games, xbox's awful (IMO) games pass and possibility of sony doing similar next gen, I'm fucking OUT!
Well, the problem is... streaming music/video is not the same as processing a game and than streaming it i.e. it will have worse performance and cost more than native playing generally speaking. Furthermore, if we go to rental model... less money for the providers... which is why there is new junk on netflix. Good movies for instance are still in the theaters and that is where the real money is generated.

I wouldn't lose any sleep on it.

The reason why it hasn't worked for 10+ years and will generally never be a mass type product is simple - more costly and worse performance.

I think people compare products or segments that may seem related but really aren't... let me give you an example.

If you know what a VD is Virtual Desktop Service, so you're a business... you provide your employees with a VD with Windows... its basically you remoting into your desktop. Well, over the last 10+ years this has been slowly moving companies over to these types of services.... so they have grown in popularity to a degree. However, I have never ever heard of a home consumer have a VD service.... why? it costs more and its a subscription... nobody needs to hire company X to mange their PC.

For a business, it can make sense as you can eliminate headcount, etc. , for a consumer it makes no sense.... yet, its basically the same product for both.
 
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MacReady13

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Well, the problem is... streaming music/video is not the same as processing a game and than streaming it i.e. it will have worse performance and cost more than native playing generally speaking. Furthermore, if we go to rental model... less money for the providers... which is why there is new junk on netflix. Good movies for instance are still in the theaters and that is where the real money is generated.

I wouldn't lose any sleep on it.

The reason why it hasn't worked for 10+ years and will generally never be a mass type product is simple - more costly and worse performance.
Unfortunately, like these companies know, most idiots can't tell that much from lag to next to no lag. So as long as thy can play with spending money on a console/PC and just pay to stream games, there are enough fucking retards out there that will subscribe to these services. I'm not losing any sleep over it as my life will go on. I have plenty of games I have yet to play either on old console or current consoles/pc so I'm sweet for many years to come.
 
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DanielsM

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Unfortunately, like these companies know, most idiots can't tell that much from lag to next to no lag. So as long as thy can play with spending money on a console/PC and just pay to stream games, there are enough fucking retards out there that will subscribe to these services. I'm not losing any sleep over it as my life will go on. I have plenty of games I have yet to play either on old console or current consoles/pc so I'm sweet for many years to come.
Well, I beta tested OnLive way back in the day, and I was a PS Now beta tester... not sure who would pay for it, generally it has to cost more (eventually) and will always have worst performance. No real upside to cloud gaming.

Its more wishful thinking than anything on their parts.
 
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wolffy71

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The one and only thing stopping streaming is tech
Once the tech is here its gonna dominate. Anyone with much sense, including a lot of very rich companies and their investors can see it. The only question is, is that tech what any of these guys have available now.
 

wolffy71

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I understand all of that, but netflix wasn't around in 2012 like today. Neither was spotify. These greedy fuckers see the money those companies make and want some of that. Once games pass, nintendo's terrible way of offering up old games, xbox's awful (IMO) games pass and possibility of sony doing similar next gen, I'm fucking OUT!
Streaming will never be the premium option. Really competitive gaming is probably always gonna be console.
 

MacReady13

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The one and only thing stopping streaming is tech
Once the tech is here its gonna dominate. Anyone with much sense, including a lot of very rich companies and their investors can see it. The only question is, is that tech what any of these guys have available now.
So how quick does internet speeds need to be to stop lag? How do you stop the net from dropping out? I notice frame rate drops and lag in games. How will streaming ever fix this?
 
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DanielsM

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So how quick does internet speeds need to be to stop lag? How do you stop the net from dropping out? I notice frame rate drops and lag in games. How will streaming ever fix this?
It won't, which is issue #1, issue #2 is the bad performance generally is going to cost more to be provided to you.... eventually. There really is nothing but negatives to cloud gaming, although one is a casual kind of person and barely plays... maybe someone will come out with a per minute plan.

- more equipment is needed
- more bandwidth is needed
- more electricity is needed
- possibly no ownership... depending on the tech or model
- worse performance than native playing
- higher cost generally speaking, eventually

= worse product = loser business

Bandwidth has gone up drastically, latency improvements are minimum at this stage.... latency is the issue not bandwidth.
 
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wolffy71

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So how quick does internet speeds need to be to stop lag? How do you stop the net from dropping out? I notice frame rate drops and lag in games. How will streaming ever fix this?
Some people may be too sensitive to it, as you say, to ever really like it. But theres a large market of people who currently arent using consoles for super competitive gaming. Thats the market its targeting. Like i said, i dont see it ever replacing consoles. Theres always gonna be that experience that can only happen with pc or console.
 
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Who would want to invest 100 million into music when no one buys music anymore?
Who would want to invest 100 million into movies when no one buys movies anymore?

The mass have spoken and owning content isn't what they prefer but that doesn't stop people from the option and it doesn't stop people investing into the medium. The idea of selling content to 100 million people over and over and hoping they buy the next console and game you put out isn't great long term solutions anymore in an industry where teams are getting larger and larger.

People are becoming more attached to brands and IP than the physical attribute. Getting them the content is the play now, not getting them the device.
I would argue that music has turned to shit. Movies were never something a lot of people purchased.
 

mr.dilya

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I'mI honestly don't give a fuck about developers. I'll take advantage of these kinds of services until the next industry crash. We kinda need one tbh. Half these big production AAA games are trash anyway.
 
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