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IGN: Devs: PS4/Xbox 3 By Jan 2014, Xbox 3 easiest/best selling, Wii U "too complex."

sleepykyo

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Jul 12, 2008
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35 XBLA developers, probably. :p

Why is this news so offensive? Microsoft is a software company, they realize more than the others the importance of software development. Microsoft has also had and continues to have the best 3rd party support so it isn't a stretch to see the Xbox 3 be the best selling system.
 

PdotMichael

Banned
Feb 9, 2011
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Why is this news so offensive? Microsoft is a software company, they realize more than the others the importance of software development. Microsoft has also had and continues to have the best 3rd party support so it isn't a stretch to see the Xbox 3 be the best selling system.

but the Wii has the worst third party support and is the best selling system
 

sp3000

Member
Mar 20, 2011
3,392
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Scale the games down, remove all the "fancy" effects, and just release them.

You have no idea how development works do you. I bet you've never even coded a program before, forget about developing a game.

Luckily developers don't have to cater to fanboy dreams and actually deal in reality
 

Erethian

Member
Jan 20, 2010
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They probably didn't have the time or budget.

Which is why you have games like Splinter Cell looking a half generation worse than GCN equivalents.

The vast bulk of the industry comes from a PC development background, which is the main reason why nobody wanted to develop for the Wii, or even knew how to push the system.

That and coming off the GCN where anybody who might have been familiar with that architecture was no longer around in decent numbers, and publishers hadn't bothered to build up their internal development tools for the Wii because of the sales performance of the GCN.
 

ivysaur12

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Dec 28, 2005
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You have no idea how development works do you. I bet you've never even coded a program before, forget about developing a game.

Luckily developers don't have to cater to fanboy dreams and actually deal in reality

Considering almost no one on this board knows the specs for any machines, this is a funny statement to make.
 

sp3000

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Mar 20, 2011
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Considering almost no one on this board knows the specs for any machines, this is a funny statement to make.

You can be sure developers know much more than anyone on this board. Those who are simply dismissing them because they dont like what is being said
 

Ryoku

Member
Jun 10, 2011
2,785
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Washington, D.C.
Scale the games down, remove all the "fancy" effects, and just release them.

Depends on the scalability of the engine itself. It also depends on the level of image quality that the developers and the publisher is seeking to achieve ("anything less than this is not acceptable because it will give the game a bad image", etc.), though I assume that potential revenue takes precedence most of the time. Most importantly, it depends on what the hardware is capable of. Engine scalability can only prove useful if the hardware supports it. Modern architecture, feature-sets, etc. need to be available. There are also costs to port a game.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Dec 28, 2005
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You can be sure developers know much more than anyone on this board. Those who are simply dismissing them because they dont like what is being said

Right. And at this point, we know nothing concerete from any developer besides a few hints here or there about its power comparable to the PS360. We know even less about MS and Sony's new machines. So telling someone to "deal with reality," when you or me or almost anybody has little-to-know idea about the power of each machine is absurd.
 

Erethian

Member
Jan 20, 2010
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0
You can be sure developers know much more than anyone on this board. Those who are simply dismissing them because they dont like what is being said

A lot of companies are going to be making their game engines cross-platform between the PS3/360 and PS4/720 going into the next generation.
 
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Sony will not make the same mistakes (pricing, exotic hardware, lackluster OS/online) next generation -the Vita is proof.
You don't know what you're talking about. The Vita is easy to develop for and made from off shelf components. The Vita's OS and online are much better than the PS3.
 

Yagharek

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Mar 3, 2007
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A lot of companies are going to be making their game engines cross-platform between the PS3/360 and PS4/720 going into the next generation.

IF Wii U is only PS3/360 or moderately more powerful, and PS4/720 are vastly more powerful, how economically feasible will it be for developers to support Wii U with the latest versions of current gen engines and tools? Isnt it going to be significantly expensive to move to UE4 and its contemporary competitors? Won't it be economically viable for some developers to stick to what they already have licenses to use? I imagine the cost of creating assets for UE4 level visuals is going to break the bank for a lot of already struggling studios.
 

Boogybro

Member
Apr 9, 2010
2,168
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360?


PC gaming would be far easier to do and the return would probably be just as well.

To which I would say to support the PC, you'll still need to scale your games back a little. Not every potential buyer for PC games has a bleeding edge rig, so drawbacks will be made. At some point in the drawbacks supporting the Wii U becomes a non issue.

This is all assuming dat Quadruple and 720 are beasts, of course.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
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Fredrik

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Jun 27, 2005
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I honestly laugh at the developer opinion on Generation 8.

For any developer to think Microsoft is going to have some sort of run-away success with the Next-Box- is either considering the US market exclusively or is severely discounting Sony and its offerings. Sony will not make the same mistakes (pricing, exotic hardware, lackluster OS/online) next generation -the Vita is proof.

To completely disregard Nintendo is another hilarious and disappointing move. The Wii U is a port monster. Scale the games down, remove all the "fancy" effects, and just release them.
Personally I definitely think the next Xbox will sell better than Xbox360, mostly because of the popular Xbox brand, Kinect and the success of Xbox Live.

But I also agree that this is for the U.S market. Sony is bigger in both EU and Japan. Nintendo is big everywhere. And I honestly don't see how this is going to change much. Sony has sold tons of PS3's even though they were laughed at in the beginning. Like you said, they won't repeat the mistakes they made this generation. And Nintendo is now entering HD/Core gaming, but without sacrificing their new casual gamers all that much, personally I think they're going to be gigantic this coming generation.

There is one thing that can jinx all this though...

Anti-used games system.

If the rumors turn out to be true that MS is implementing this in their next Xbox then I'm neither surprised that the devs are hyping the console right now or surprised if we'll see them ignoring other platforms almost completely for whatever strange official reason.
 

AniHawk

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Jun 7, 2004
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1,595
designers saying they don't want to design something because it's too hard makes me not interested in their games. designing is your job. it should be your passion. seeing something new should spark a bunch of different ideas in your head.

however, i understand this is more likely related to the cost of assigning thinkers to make use of something like touch screen controls, when you probably can't afford to take them away from the design of the game that is meant to appear on all consoles. the actual structuring of teams may make things more complex than necessary.

anyway, i've heard this complaint echoed elsewhere months ago, that developers are taking a wait and see approach to the wii u, or until mario comes out and builds a userbase first. and specifically because they don't know what to make of the controller.
 

Yagharek

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Mar 3, 2007
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anyway, i've heard this complaint echoed elsewhere months ago, that developers are taking a wait and see approach to the wii u, or until mario comes out and builds a userbase first. and specifically because they don't know what to make of the controller.

I'm kind of surprised some devs arent making games that directly borrow mechanics from successful DS games with their own IPs on it. Even just a direct cash in version of nintendogs, brain training or a just dance version of ouendan/EBA.
 

eBay Huckster

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twitter.com
That part I was just being silly, silly scamps with mayo on everything and "bacon" that's just ham...I love em

And don't even get me started on poutine!

no really don't I won't ever shut up about it

You don't know what you're talking about. The Vita is easy to develop for and made from off shelf components. The Vita's OS and online are much better than the PS3.

That was... kind of thuway's point.
 

AniHawk

Member
Jun 7, 2004
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I'm kind of surprised some devs arent making games that directly borrow mechanics from successful DS games with their own IPs on it. Even just a direct cash in version of nintendogs, brain training or a just dance version of ouendan/EBA.

well it's a possibility that scribblenauts might come to the wii u. that's about as big as western third-party ds games get.
 

eBay Huckster

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Aug 1, 2009
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it's too bad there probably won't be a throwaway Wii U port of GTAV because nintendo systems are absolutely balls in terms of western third-party support (and ESPECIALLY Rockstar support)

most likely wouldn't buy it over the PC version anyway but it'd be pretty nice as a possible option i guess
 

Yagharek

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Mar 3, 2007
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well it's a possibility that scribblenauts might come to the wii u. that's about as big as western third-party ds games get.

Thats more what I was thinking about but couldnt recall the name (or many western DS games at that).

I guess the issue here is partly a combination of Wii U being still NDA-d up the whazoo, and many devs holding off to see how it goes before pledging any kind of support.

I'm getting one, bu I also expect the first year is going to be pretty lean pickings for original third party games. Fingers crossed for a sequel to Ghost Recon Shadow Wars though.
 

antonz

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May 12, 2010
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designers saying they don't want to design something because it's too hard makes me not interested in their games. designing is your job. it should be your passion. seeing something new should spark a bunch of different ideas in your head.

however, i understand this is more likely related to the cost of assigning thinkers to make use of something like touch screen controls, when you probably can't afford to take them away from the design of the game that is meant to appear on all consoles. the actual structuring of teams may make things more complex than necessary.

anyway, i've heard this complaint echoed elsewhere months ago, that developers are taking a wait and see approach to the wii u, or until mario comes out and builds a userbase first. and specifically because they don't know what to make of the controller.

This part I agree with 100% and it drives me crazy as someone who has to write up game design proposals. I ask myself are people really that bankrupt creative wise. I could probably bring the Upad to any university or even high school and the kids could come up with a million ideas.

I can understand when you are on a tight deadline etc the extra work can be an issue but then you see the comments Ill never work on such and such because its hard. That to me speaks more to the person talking than the system
 

Wubby

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Jun 21, 2010
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Somewhere in Japan
Well we already know some new sort of Apple TV is coming that will play interactive titles but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the unannounced system is the SteamBox.
 

wazoo

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Jun 10, 2004
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I would not see how a steambox would be different from a PC with fixed specs.

The unknown platform is probably Apple TV Game eDition.
 

AniHawk

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Jun 7, 2004
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This part I agree with 100% and it drives me crazy as someone who has to write up game design proposals. I ask myself are people really that bankrupt creative wise. I could probably bring the Upad to any university or even high school and the kids could come up with a million ideas.

I can understand when you are on a tight deadline etc the extra work can be an issue but then you see the comments Ill never work on such and such because its hard. That to me speaks more to the person talking than the system

just today i was tasked to come up with a couple ideas on the fly on how to handle this one design project. i was sent the original files we'd be basing our project off of, and even without going fancy with the tech i started thinking about how i'd arrange stuff and present it.

then i had an idea that might have been a little more expensive, but it was also more exciting. i proposed it to one of the designers and they took what i said the wrong way- but it led to an even better idea. in the end, neither my idea or hers was cost-effective, but it was a good exercise in brainstorming and getting away from the norm. the best part was we both learned something. i fucking love that part of my job.

but yeah i know what it's like to squeeze all your ideas into a deadline. not everything can be a cool conceptual piece. i've been extremely fortunate to work at a place where i've been given the freedom to do quite a few though.
 

Aizu_Itsuko

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Oct 10, 2004
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That would be the professional approach to it, but lots of developers couldn't be arsed to read documentation or give the TEV pipeline a try; not saying it's the case here (I wouldn't be surprised if it was ported by a guy with time constraints), but it happens.

Doesn't change that someone along the line didn't think this port (of a average 9 year old game) deserved any justice and effectively had the balls to publish it as is.
You are making quite a few assumptions here, but I'm glad you can see that there is more than one explanation for a bad port.

Just because a port of a game isn't very good and doesn't take full advantage of the system it doesn't mean that the people that worked on that port were unprofessional. The professional approach is the only valid one if you want to keep your job.

As for this game, yes someone took some decisions at some point based on the projected sales this port was going to get because this is a business.

They probably didn't have the time or budget.

Which is why you have games like Splinter Cell looking a half generation worse than GCN equivalents.
The most likely scenario.

And now that you mention Splinter Cell, that reminds me of the terrible PS3 port of Splinter Cell: Double Agent which was missing many of the effects for similar reasons (time and budget constraints). IIRC it was done by one single programmer with a little assistance from one of the artists at the end. Were they unprofessional or lazy? No, they did the best they could do with what they had.
 

jono51

Banned
Nov 12, 2011
948
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I honestly laugh at the developer opinion on Generation 8.

For any developer to think Microsoft is going to have some sort of run-away success with the Next-Box- is either considering the US market exclusively or is severely discounting Sony and its offerings. Sony will not make the same mistakes (pricing, exotic hardware, lackluster OS/online) next generation -the Vita is proof.

Its kind of hard to take much from that statement at this point really. On the one hand, it could just be that MS has been taking devs out for free dinners. On the other hand, they may know something power/pricing/online/features-wise that we don't. But yeah, I don't think Sony will mess up again like with PS3 so they should have a much better start, but we'll see I guess.
 

Cygnus X-1

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Mar 7, 2007
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From a hardware perspective, nearly 80% of respondents said Microsoft’s next console is the easiest to work with, and the overwhelming majority suspect it will be the sales leader over the next five years.

really now

It's quite common for developers to not consider Nintendo at all.
 

P90

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Jun 15, 2004
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Who/what are "devs"? IGN is being disingenuous and just looking for web hits. But gaming journalism has such high standards...

That said, given the momentum of Kinect and the 360 juxtaposed with the Wii's rotten performance the last 18-24 months, I can see western developers and others having sentiments listed by IGN. On the other hand, the PS3 was to ride the PS2's momentum. We all know how that turned out.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
Mar 22, 2007
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You're joking right? They were all ports except for one. Those games didn't take advantage of the remote in interesting ways. Waggling is not what I call interesting. What about Motion Plus? Can you qualify any of these games as AAA? No. As I said, they didn't even try. It's not even up for debate.
You first said that there werent any Star Wars games on the Wii. You didnt elaborate anything more around this, so it is hard for me to know what you mean when you say nothing else. It would be like i'm saying that there are no Mario games for the Wii. And if someone listed the Mario games on the Wii, then i would reply "but non of them are 2D sprite based". I just pointed out that there excist six Star Wars games on the Wii, because all you said was that there excist no Star Wars games on the Wii.

The game i mentioned earlier had the light saber duel mode, which did try to emulate a light saber fight. If that isnt an interesting way, then what is?

I havnt played all of the games, but i would qualify Force Unleashed 1 and 2 for AAA games. Both these games had higher production values.
 

get2sammyb

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Feb 9, 2009
2,575
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For any developer to think Microsoft is going to have some sort of run-away success with the Next-Box- is either considering the US market exclusively or is severely discounting Sony and its offerings. Sony will not make the same mistakes (pricing, exotic hardware, lackluster OS/online) next generation -the Vita is proof.

I agree, but I think the biggest problem Sony faces next generation is going up against Microsoft's God-tier marketing department.
 

Pandemic

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Sep 9, 2009
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''From a hardware perspective, nearly 80% of respondents said Microsoft’s next console is the easiest to work with, and the overwhelming majority suspect it will be the sales leader over the next five years.''

Should I be concerned about the PS4...? o.o
 

Gaspode_T

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Jan 18, 2011
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One thing that many people do not realize is that the management of both PS team and Xbox teams are now totally different than they were when PS3 and Xbox 360 were first released. I mean, like 90% different people. So it will be interesting anyway to see how the new management chains change anything about corporate strategy and direction. Nintendo on the other hand of course has barely changed at all.

Microsoft's interactive entertainment division has morphed into something totally different than even what it was two or three years ago. If you were worried about gaming for a gaming sake, I would buy a PC with GeForce 680XT like I just did and hook up a 360 controller to it. Support indies. Support the heart of gaming.
 

RPGCrazied

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Oct 14, 2007
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I need to see the Wii launch line up and price. I'm only going to assume it'll be cheaper than the PS4. The only two I want, so it depends on what both have to offer before making a choice and get the other one later. I have 0 interest in Xbox 3 or whatever.
 

DieH@rd

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Dec 9, 2006
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''From a hardware perspective, nearly 80% of respondents said Microsoft’s next console is the easiest to work with, and the overwhelming majority suspect it will be the sales leader over the next five years.''

Should I be concerned about the PS4...? o.o

It probably means that very little people has PS4 devkits in their offices. There are VERY LITTLE TO NONE rumors of it from the wild.
 

Erethian

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Jan 20, 2010
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IF Wii U is only PS3/360 or moderately more powerful, and PS4/720 are vastly more powerful, how economically feasible will it be for developers to support Wii U with the latest versions of current gen engines and tools? Isnt it going to be significantly expensive to move to UE4 and its contemporary competitors? Won't it be economically viable for some developers to stick to what they already have licenses to use? I imagine the cost of creating assets for UE4 level visuals is going to break the bank for a lot of already struggling studios.

It will depend on the developer/publisher. EA will more than likely be utilising, and iterating on, Frostbite 2 for the start of next gen. There will also be those who use engines exclusively designed for the new platforms, though I think that will be limited to a select group of the "top tier" developers. I think it will be a while before you see widescale adoption of UE4, basically, and instead you have Bioshock situations where companies are taking the engine they use currently and doing minor iterations on it to have it fit their needs, specifically in terms of the rendering engine to take advantage of what the next generation will offer.

Cause another thing a lot of devs are saying is they don't plan to throw out and totally rewrite their complimenting systems (physics, AI, etc) anytime soon. It just takes too long to effectively start from scratch. Same goes for the internal development tools companies have built up over the course of the generation.

Given sales numbers, I find that surprising.

Not talking about sales numbers, but their initial development background. Aside from the number of developers who started on the PC but moved to consoles, which this generation is honestly too many to name, anyone becoming a graphics programmer is going to be trained in the use of modern graphics architecture, which the Wii didn't have. This generation saw a definite shift away from the unique architectures the platform holders would devise for their new console, towards something more standardised. Hence why so many developers prefer using the 360 SDK, and why so many had trouble with the PS3.

It also ties into why Western developers have been so far ahead of Japan this generation, both in terms of the number of high quality games produced and the technical ability shown by the teams.
 

wsippel

Banned
May 25, 2006
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I'm lost, why would they need that on WiiU ?

Anyway i have a theory, but it's maybe wrong, tell me. basically, Microsoft has a strategy for its hardware, and that's putting all the best conventional parts they can afford to loose money on >> resulting in something really usual for devs.

Sony/Nintendo don't want/can't afford that strategy, so they have to relate on smarter design choices, meaning looking for innovative and exclusive techs (i'm only speaking power, not interface) resulting in something less simple to code for.
That's basically how I understand it. Except Sony seems to switch to standard components as well (but Microsoft still has a massive advantage when it comes to APIs and toolchain). Nintendo on the other hand really loves unusual GPUs and memory layouts and favors predictable performance over flexibility. Probably doesn't help that Nintendo decided on a rather exotic toolchain and IDE nobody in the industry has any experience with, either.
 

RiverBed

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Mar 28, 2007
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Can't wait to see what Sony does with PS4; I agree with patcher; this time, Sony will NOT be late and will NOT over-engineer it (make it expensive). Plus, we have all these new tools like proper internet/TV integration.
 

aeroslash

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Aug 30, 2011
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That's basically how I understand it. Except Sony seems to switch to standard components as well (but Microsoft still has a massive advantage when it comes to APIs and toolchain). Nintendo on the other hand really loves unusual GPUs and memory layouts and favors predictable performance over flexibility. Probably doesn't help that Nintendo decided on a rather exotic toolchain and IDE nobody in the industry has any experience with, either.

I'm not a tech savy but can you explain this a little bit more? Thanks.
 

RagnarokX

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Sep 16, 2006
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I honestly laugh at the developer opinion on Generation 8.

For any developer to think Microsoft is going to have some sort of run-away success with the Next-Box- is either considering the US market exclusively or is severely discounting Sony and its offerings. Sony will not make the same mistakes (pricing, exotic hardware, lackluster OS/online) next generation -the Vita is proof.

Huh? I would say Vita is proof Sony DIDN'T learn from their mistakes with PSP. Even if it is good value, they priced themselves out of the handheld market again. Nintendo made the same mistake, but they could wiggle out of it because they gave themselves room to do so. Probably the biggest mistake they repeated was making the games too close to PS3. Why buy Vita versions of games that you can play on PS3. PS3 and Vita are cannibalizing eachother. Portability alone is not a big selling point anymore.

One thing they got right was moving to cartridges instead of discs, but then they made a new mistake by requiring overpriced proprietary memory cards.
 

Durante

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Oct 1, 2006
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Probably doesn't help that Nintendo decided on a rather exotic toolchain and IDE nobody in the industry has any experience with, either.
I hadn't heard anything about this before so I just looked it up. MULTI eh?

I think gamers probably don't realize the extent to which MS' software business helps their gaming part. Owning and developing one of the most widely used and respected development environments as well as the most popular multimedia API must be a big advantage over Sony and Nintendo.
 

MrDanger88

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Mar 6, 2010
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Devs can throw out all the excuses they want. At the end of the day it will result in little support as usual.
 

test_account

XP-39C²
Mar 22, 2007
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Probably the biggest mistake they repeated was making the games too close to PS3. Why buy Vita versions of games that you can play on PS3. PS3 and Vita are cannibalizing eachother. Portability alone is not a big selling point anymore.
This applies to the 3DS too. Those games get more and more alike the Gamecube and Wii games.
 

wsippel

Banned
May 25, 2006
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I'm not a tech savy but can you explain this a little bit more? Thanks.
An IDE is the environment you develop software in. The most common IDEs are Visual Studio (Microsoft), Xcode (Apple) and Eclipse (open source). A toolchain is basically a set of applications to translate source code to something the machine actually understands and consists of compilers, linkers, assemblers, build systems, debuggers, profilers and the like (often hidden behind or part of an IDE). The most common toolchains are the one integrated in Visual Studio, the one integrated in Xcode, and the stand alone GNU toolchain (open source). For Wii U, Nintendo decided to go with the GHS MULTI IDE and toolchain, a rather exotic and expensive suite that is typically used in high reliability, high security embedded development (like medical, industrial and military applications). It's simply not a familiar environment for game developers, most of which most likely never even heard of GHS, which means that it requires additional training and education.
 

richman555

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One creator went as far as saying, “we won’t be working on Wii U due to these complexities,” while another lamented the difficulty of moving innovative games unique to Wii U to other platforms


Same old story this generation it seems. I am really surprised though since Ninty supposedly has gone out of their way to make things easier for 3rd party developers. I have read articles claiming the processors used will be more similar to what the xbox uses and also I had read about agreements to use the Havoc technology for physics. I've also heard the Online capabilities will be much improved.

The only thing I can think of that might be "complex" is back porting a Wii U specific title to other platforms as they don't have tablets.