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IGN rushes through PJSideScroller, lies, is called out, removes part of review

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
The guy got egg on his face, just leave it at that. There's no shame in him blasting through on casual, giving it a low score, etc. There is shame in lying (more than likely) in a public forum, and then going the extra step to call out said developer like HE did something wrong because you got caught. THAT is the problem.

Yup - the thing is the game isn't going to be for everyone.

Someone into shmups is going to have a different take on the game than to someone who just wants to skim through. Then again, i doubt anyone into shmups is going to go to IGN for a review.

Plus it's probably going to get #fingerwag'ed by the hardcore shmups crowd on a few fronts ;)

I like it - jumped to check out level 3 - loved the undulating pulsating throb of the level, reminded me of Gynoug (if it was running on a supercharged Vectrex) :)
 
ROFL i'm seriously impressed at IGN .. everytime i think they learned something ..or that they cannot go lower they beat my expectations ...

Keep it UP IGN , i wanna see how low you can go ...
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
MrPliskin said:
Lots of spaces between sentences there...anyway, no one in this thread has contested his score, just his opinions and statements. Not only does that particular line tell of a person who blasted through the game hastily to get a review out the door, but the twitter posts further contribute to the madness. Had he beat it on both, he would have known to the contrary. The issue isn't his thoughts with regards to the game, rather, the fact that someone from the studio told him "hey, there's a cutscene if you beat it on Normal" (basically an FYI).

The guy got egg on his face, just leave it at that. There's no shame in him blasting through on casual, giving it a low score, etc. There is shame in lying (more than likely) in a public forum, and then going the extra step to call out said developer like HE did something wrong because you got caught. THAT is the problem.

That isn't true though, and you know it. The original tweet from Dylan said:

dylancuthbert Dylan Cuthbert
@
@DaemZero you didn't play it on normal (as is obvious from your review) - completing it on casual doesn't unlock the last epic stage
26 Oct Favorite Retweet Reply

Nothing about a cut-scene, he said "last epic stage". Many people took this to be an extra level, and it's clear that's what Daemon though he meant, and Dylan didn't clarify this until much later.
 

MrPliskin

Banned
Doeant matter, stage or no stage, he still wasn't truthful and tried to paint a picture of Jobe as an angry developer seeking a change in score, which was NEVER the case.
 
MrPliskin said:
Doeant matter, stage or no stage, he still wasn't truthful and tried to paint a picture of Jobe as an angry developer seeking a change in score, which was NEVER the case.
Cuthbert. Jobe is warhawk/starhawk D:
 
MrPliskin said:
Doeant matter, stage or no stage, he still wasn't truthful and tried to paint a picture of Jobe as an angry developer seeking a change in score, which was NEVER the case.

That is an extreme exaggeration. Also, the name is wrong.
 
shmups.com, cave-stg.com - shoot em up fans are here
ign.com, most mainstream review sites - poseurs pretending to be 'shoot em up fans' are here

I'd like to review this game if possible.. lol
 

HiVision

Member
Yes, in the heat of the moment I forgot that we enabled the final stage for Casual so even casual players get that in the final version of the game, but I corrected that in the tweet almost immediately afterwards when I mention the cut scene which directly contradicted his complaints in the review. Basically, the thing that irked me was the line that said it just plonks you back to the title screen without even a congratulations, which is just plain wrong if you played it in normal, and this is what I was trying to point out. Even if the review score had been 8 or 9 out of ten, I would still have tweeted about it because we put a damn lot of effort into wrapping up the entire Shooter universe in that final scene. Sure, perhaps he just didn't see it... but really? He's reviewing the game and he doesn't watch the end scene?

What he should have done is simply posted an "[edit: actually there is an ending scene if you complete it on normal]", but instead he tried to save face and removed the glaringly obvious section of the review that gave it away that he had only skimmed through the game. I have no idea why he did this instead of the above, but he did, and that's what caused the storm in a teacup, nothing else.

We've had this happen before on our games with the "first to press" reviews that are always rushed to get the page hits, so I always fight against them - there was one review for Shooter 2 where the reviewer had obviously only played a few stages right at the beginning and then assumed all kinds of stuff about the rest of the game. When I pointed this out on twitter the site apologised and re-did the review (and score as it happens), instead of going back and editing out the bits in the review that gave that away as IGN did!
 

MrPliskin

Banned
Gamer @ Heart said:
That is an extreme exaggeration. Also, the name is wrong.
Yea, sorry about the name, and no, it's not am exaggeration. Cuthbert simply tells him to finish on normal for the level (cutscene) and Deamon gets salty and says he did, then accuses Cuthbert of getting upset with him in his blog that he wrote ONLY so he could try to save face. Why are you defending him? I really don't understand it.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
MrPliskin said:
Yea, sorry about the name, and no, it's not am exaggeration. Cuthbert simply tells him to finish on normal for the level (cutscene) and Deamon gets salty and says he did, then accuses Cuthbert of getting upset with him in his blog that he wrote ONLY so he could try to save face. Why are you defending him? I really don't understand it.

It is an exaggeration of the situation, and again you are adding your own spin to the events.


..and Dylan, I do appreciate you posting here, and I'm glad you own up to misspeaking, and it's obvious you take a lot of pride in your game.

Your games done, you should kick back with a few drinks and relax. This will all fade in to the depths soon enough.
 

HiVision

Member
NervousXtian said:
It is an exaggeration of the situation, and again you are adding your own spin to the events.


..and Dylan, I do appreciate you posting here, and I'm glad you own up to misspeaking, and it's obvious you take a lot of pride in your game.

Your games done, you should kick back with a few drinks and relax. This will all fade in to the depths soon enough.

Heheh, believe me, I'm already doing that - all the (other) reviews are glowing and we've had nothing but really good feedback from people who actually played the game! Which makes us really happy. (and that Trent Reznor tweet was icing on the cake :) )
 

Kurdel

Banned
I am glad that people like Dylan keep an eye on this stuff and have the balls to call it out. IGN has a massive readership, so a dishonest review can definately hurt.

Fortunately, I am pretty IGN reviews don't affect the sales of a Pixel Junk games. The is probably a Venn diagram that shows very little overlap in target audience.

At the end of the day, I hope this affair will have just made some free publicity, so they can have more sales, so we can have more Pixel Junk games. Please.
 

kassatsu

Banned
HiVision said:
We've had this happen before on our games with the "first to press" reviews that are always rushed to get the page hits, so I always fight against them - there was one review for Shooter 2 where the reviewer had obviously only played a few stages right at the beginning and then assumed all kinds of stuff about the rest of the game. When I pointed this out on twitter the site apologised and re-did the review (and score as it happens), instead of going back and editing out the bits in the review that gave that away as IGN did!
Was this the guy that was mentioning stuff from an old fact sheet, like ghost runs?
 

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
Interesting read.


Wait Dylan posts here?
Plz make another monsters game for ps3/psp/vita. Ill pay like 100 dollars for it :(
 

web01

Member
Sad that this thread is still going.

The IGN guy clearly played the game, Cuthbert only called him out on the tiny mistake because he was pissed about the score then it was actually him telling lies about the unlockable stage which is really just an extra ending scene.

People are coming and posting in thread to jump on the bash IGN bandwagon when they do not even know what happened.
 

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
web01 said:
Sad that this thread is still going.

The IGN guy clearly played the game, Cuthbert only called him out on the tiny mistake because he was pissed about the score then it was actually him telling lies about the unloclable stage whic is really an extra ending scene.

People are coming and posting in thread to jump on the bash IGN bandwagon when they do not even know what happened.

Did you not read Dylan's long post explaining the situation just a few posts above yours?

I mean, if you want to call Dylan a liar, the least you can do is say it straight to him, since he's posting in the thread.
 
Lies and stealth edits and excuses aside, the review itself is bad.

"But nothing of Sidescroller persists from game to game." Oh boo hoo. No hamster wheel for you. Try aiming for a high score next time? He demands to be placed like a hamster in a cage reaching for that next permanent level up or power up, which is completely antithetical to competitive skill based and high score based arcade games.

"There are but three stages made up of four short levels each and then a "last stage" end boss encounter." News flash. Shoot em ups are typically short. Classic shoot em ups and modern CAVE games typically last 15-25 minutes for a single loop. Pixeljunk SideScroller is on the longer end of the spectrum.

"Sidescroller doesn't have the hooks that compel me to keep improving my game" Oh, that's nice, why don't you expand on the scoring system and critique it instead of making obtuse comparisons to other non-shooters. Oh wait, mainstream reviewers giving a coherent critical analysis of a scoring system is rare, if it ever happens at all.

"Finish the last stage". Rename to "credit feed to the last stage on easy mode, then publicly lie about it, make stealth edits to the review, then make even more excuses". No more need be said here.

"I needed more of this sort of thing." He needs more pretty looking gimmicks.

He claims to be a shoot em up fan, yet disdains the arcade style lack of RPG-like progression, claims the game is too short while credit feeding on the easiest mode, and fails to explain why he doesn't like the scoring system. Typical crap review.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
He claims to be a shoot em up fan, yet disdains the arcade style lack of RPG-like progression, claims the game is too short while credit feeding on the easiest mode, and fails to explain why he doesn't like the scoring system. Typical crap review.

i'm not defending the review or anything like that because i've not read it, i've played levels 1-1 , 1-2, 1-3 and 3-1 so far and i like the game

HOWEVER

i can see several reasons why -hardcore- shmup fans aren't going to click with the game. Now bear in mind this is the sort of people who 1CC Maniac modes for breakfast. The hooks are much simpler and less balls out crazy in PJSS - there's also a slight bit of inertia (or some control "foible" (?)) that they'll pick up on. If the chain doesn't carry level to level so they can no-hit clear the game, it's a problem etc etc.

I have no idea if the IGN reviewer is like this, nor does it absolve any blame for inaccurate statements in the review, however there -are- going to be some 'legit' gripes from some segments of Shmupland. I can GUARANTEE it.

Personally? loving what i've played so far. Reminds me of so many games all at the same time.
 

Riposte

Member
mjemirzian said:
He claims to be a shoot em up fan, yet disdains the arcade style lack of RPG-like progression, claims the game is too short while credit feeding on the easiest mode, and fails to explain why he doesn't like the scoring system. Typical crap review.

My thoughts once I found out he was a shooter fan. There is this weird subset of shooter fans which treat all shooters like something on a fastfood dollar menu.
 
DCharlie said:
i'm not defending the review or anything like that because i've not read it, i've played levels 1-1 , 1-2, 1-3 and 3-1 so far and i like the game

HOWEVER

i can see several reasons why -hardcore- shmup fans aren't going to click with the game. Now bear in mind this is the sort of people who 1CC Maniac modes for breakfast. The hooks are much simpler and less balls out crazy in PJSS - there's also a slight bit of inertia (or some control "foible" (?)) that they'll pick up on. If the chain doesn't carry level to level so they can no-hit clear the game, it's a problem etc etc.

I have no idea if the IGN reviewer is like this, nor does it absolve any blame for inaccurate statements in the review, however there -are- going to be some 'legit' gripes from some segments of Shmupland. I can GUARANTEE it.

Personally? loving what i've played so far. Reminds me of so many games all at the same time.
Don't you mean 'so they can't chain the entire game ala Dodonpachi'? I'm only aware of the term 'no miss' which means clearing the game without dying.

You may be right, but I think a fair review would indicate what type of player would be most pleased by the game, before (or rather than) inserting their own biases and damning anyone else who might dare enjoy it.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
Don't you mean 'so they can't chain the entire game ala Dodonpachi'? I'm only aware of the term 'no miss' which means clearing the game without dying.

You may be right, but I think a fair review would indicate what type of player would be most pleased by the game, before (or rather than) inserting their own biases and damning anyone else who might dare enjoy it.

yup - sorry, posting whilst working - never a good combo ;)

yes, full chain the game like DDP. It doesn't kill the game at all for 99% of people but you just know Shmups.com or similar place will be all over it. That said - i don't think PJSS is positioning itself to be a new Danmaku king - it's just doing it's own brand of fun shooting, which i think it is what i enjoyed about the short play i had. :)

Shmups : Infact... why don't i just check? -- actually not much commentary beyond IGNGate. :)
 
I doubt the shmups.com crowd would be all that concerned about being unable to carry chains through levels. They do tend to make fun of 'euroshmups' or 'dollar store' shmups with heavy inertia, shields, undodgeable bullet patterns (to go with the shields), badly designed enemy patterns and bosses, and some that lack scoring systems or even let you keep your score between continues (lol). Basically the kusoge of shmups. PixelJunk SideScroller is far from that kind of game and I would imagine most shmups.com regulars would give it fairly good marks (around B to B+), although they reserve their highest praise for Cave and Raizing games.

Riposte said:
My thoughts once I found out he was a shooter fan. There is this weird subset of shooter fans which treat all shooters like something on a fastfood dollar menu.
Yup. Can't appreciate a quality shmup, thinks they should all be $1 and played for 1-2 hours at most then thrown in the proverbial bin. His review made it clear that he treated the game as such.
 
There is just no excuse ....

and they stealth edit proved the lack of professionalism. Why not put an "UPDATE" sign at the bottom where he could have explained better the sentence ?

Moreover: why playing through more than 1 time a game that you played because you were paid to and you didn't even like it ? for professional integrity and to be through ? ..... em ... really ?
 

freddy

Banned
web01 said:
People are coming and posting in thread to jump on the bash IGN bandwagon when they do not even know what happened.
If you're going to attach yourself emotionally to a gaming website you could do much better than IGN.
 

Flavius

Member
It's yet another sleazy, scummy move by IGN...

which is about as surprising as a yet another sleazy, scummy move by Kotaku, which is...
 

mclem

Member
DCharlie said:
yes, full chain the game like DDP. It doesn't kill the game at all for 99% of people but you just know Shmups.com or similar place will be all over it. That said - i don't think PJSS is positioning itself to be a new Danmaku king - it's just doing it's own brand of fun shooting, which i think it is what i enjoyed about the short play i had. :)

As an aside: I assume we're talking about an incremental multiplier as the chain increases resulting in gargantuan scores for extremely long chains?

I've never quite been comfortable with that as a scoring mechanic, it feels *wrong* to me. Ouendan had the same and while it was sound, I always felt the risk layout was incorrect. If you miss *one* continuation of the chain, you suffer *much* moreso in the middle of the game than you do on either end.

Miss an enemy at the start, you just start the chain later.
Miss an enemy at the end, you lose your chain but you've had it over many of the enemies.
Miss an enemy in the middle, though, and you'll get a *significantly* lower score.

Each time you're only missing one enemy, but the difference to your final score could be massive.
 

mclem

Member
A tiny bit of devil's advocacy - although more through musing about game design rather than defending IGN directly - is there any indication upon completing the game on Casual that you - in some way - didn't get the full ending?

Doesn't need to be complicated, just something along the lines of Bubble Bobble's 'fake ending' or somesuch. Something to actually *drive* you to move on to Normal. Admittedly, I'd really hope the gameplay alone is sufficient to do so - but a little prod shouldn't do any harm!
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
diffusionx said:
I don't know what you expect. Do those people keep up on game news every day? Do they post on game sites like you do? Are they as passionate about games as you are?

Answer to all those questions is probably "no." That's why they rely on reviews. They are human and have other interests and just want to enjoy a popular game for a bit. I don't read game reviews but I do read movie and music reviews to decide what to consume. Why? Because I don't have the time or energy to go hunting through the endless piles of new stuff to find what is aligned to my taste. Because I am not so knowledgeable and up-to-date that I can intuitively grasp what I would enjoy. It's life, man.

To them, you just sound like a nerd/asshole/snob.

Well, considering that I work at, Capcom, a video game company, in the R&D department, where we develop video games, I'd like to think that my co-workers have a passion for gaming.

The answer to your questions:

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

It's not like I work with a bunch of non-gamers. These guys are pretty hardcore, and own all the consoles, and killer PC gaming rigs. Doesn't stop them from rushing to IGN and being "disappointed" or "excited" when they score a game low or high, respectively. These are guys that talk about gaming with me every day. Believe me, they're just as big gaming nerds as I am.
 
If they're going to IGN as a reference for gaming reviews or criticism, they've got quite a lot of learning to do, especially if they're 'game testers' themselves. Anyone duped by reviews like this one doesn't know what goes into a competent review or critical analysis in the first place. This is amateur stuff, more like one noobs whiny opinion than any kind of critique, analysis, or attempt to match a game to its target audience.
 

Lothars

Member
web01 said:
Sad that this thread is still going.

The IGN guy clearly played the game, Cuthbert only called him out on the tiny mistake because he was pissed about the score then it was actually him telling lies about the unlockable stage which is really just an extra ending scene.

People are coming and posting in thread to jump on the bash IGN bandwagon when they do not even know what happened.
Your right it seems like the one's defending IGN have really no clue what happened, he didn't play the game fully than get's called out about it, lies than changes some text in his review because he was wrong.

He was in the wrong and he should have just fessed up.

Apoc87 said:
What's the GAF consensus on casual/easy difficulty?

Why so much hate?
I don't think there's anything wrong with someone playing on casual/easy difficulty but if someone is reviewing it, they should at least try it on normal especially a game like this which is more of a shooter.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
DCharlie said:
i'm not defending the review or anything like that because i've not read it, i've played levels 1-1 , 1-2, 1-3 and 3-1 so far and i like the game.
Make sure - I repeat, make sure to play through the game so you get to see the Last Level. It's simply pure genius right there.

Lothars said:
Your right it seems like the one's defending IGN have really no clue what happened, he didn't play the game fully than get's called out about it, lies than changes some text in his review because he was wrong.
I think he played the game fully. If he knew it just dumps you back to title screen he HAD to finish the game on Casual to know that. Yes, playing it on Casual makes the game a walk in a park, but you see everything you need to see by playing it like that. Last Level looks identical, it's just much easier. End cutscene is really nothing important and I'm sure wouldn't have swayed anyone's mind about the game. I do think the game is much more enjoyable on Normal difficulty though, as you get much greater sense of accomplishment and satisfaction as opposed to Casual.

All that said, I simply can't see how someone can give this game 6.5 after playing through that last level. I just can't.
 

AkuMifune

Banned
Maybe this has been covered, but can we check Hatfield's trophy's? Putting your achievements/trophy's out there for people to see should be a must for everyone in the industry. Full disclosure. I know some early review code needs to be played on a debug and won't count it, but for the most part it usually works. For example, you can take a look at any of the GB crews achievements (now trophy's!) anytime you want.
 

aaaaaa

Member
I just beat the game on casual and normal. There is definitely a significant cutscene at the end of normal mode.

People who consider it a minor mistake are missing the point. The reviewer claimed to have played through it on normal and was revealed to have lied. The factual error is not the issue, the issue is that of the lie revealed by the error.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
NervousXtian said:
Exactly, why would they review the game on the merits of being free to them. Don't we rail against that? I want them to review from the context of my value, not theirs, because their value would be the game being free.
I want to know if a game is worth my time, I don't give a damn about the price, since what is worth the price is different for everyone. Reviewers I think try to do both, and tend to fail at both at once.
 
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