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Opinion In this day and age, why would anybody want to watch a Hollywood movie with a female lead?

IDKFA

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It's much worse in the UK, with the new BFI rules.

Basically only white straight men can be evil, and you can't harm women. There is even a rule against using people with scars on their face as bad guys :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Art is dead.

Calling BS on this. Show me the rule that states only white, straight men can be the bad guys.
 

jason10mm

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A Force Marvel GIF by Nerdist.com


Because of this shit, belongs in cringe thread
That's just fan service. That scene alone isnt much different than the Cap Thor hammer axe swap. When the ENTIRE film is this stuff, that's when it hits cringe.
 

oagboghi2

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Terrible thread title. OP made some interesting observations, but retards will focus solely on the title, and feign offense and outrage

This thread wins for stupidest thing I’ve read today and that’s saying a lot because I frequent Twitter.

Please don’t go full incel and kill a bunch of women.

Case in point.

I don’t think Hollywood films put a premium on writing, so these characters tend to templates, and a lot of the “strong female” template is just boring.

That's just fan service. That scene alone isnt much different than the Cap Thor hammer axe swap. When the ENTIRE film is this stuff, that's when it hits cringe.

But that’s a perfect example.

Cap holding the hammer and making the assemble cry had been teased before. It felt organic because of the characters relationship and history.

This just felt like obvious political pandering
 
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FunkMiller

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To be fair to Disney, they apparently did a decent job of an actual strong female protagonist in Cruella, according to Filmento:

 

jason10mm

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Cap's scene doesn't raise questions of how only those characters all happened to be around in that exact moment during a big battle though.
But the GIANT ASS SPACE SHIP that TRAVELLED THROUGH TIME didn't bother you?

Come on. We all know the entire MCU could be decimated by a single half competent artilleryman with a MLRS that could coat the area with anti-personnel munitions. A few 500 pound bombs would do the trick as well. Hell, all of Wakanda could be taken by a single Ranger company still struggling with last night's hangover.

The MCU is stupid, all of it. But out of all that idiocy, that one scene is the thing that broke it for you? They have been building all of those characters for 20 films!

I'll give you Captain "I can punch through an intergalactic battleship but not this meatbag in front of me "Marvel though, just a terrible character.
 

Pagusas

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OP just a bit of constructive critisim, This type of topic is a political and culturally sensative one, one that is charged with emotion and high value to some people. There are great ways to present it in an educated, well stated way. In fact a lot of what you wrote does come off that way... but your headline is just absolute click-bate/trigger crap, intentionally made to piss certain people off and generate hostile or aggressive responses without ever reading the real meat of what you wrote.

If you honestly want to have a good discussion about this, why not make a headline that reflects the actual substance of what you want to talk about instead of giving in to aggressive click bait nonsense? Be better than that, your ideas and argument deserve better.
 
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Salz01

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All movies today are pretty shit. I personally can’t remember the last time I watched a good recent made movie.
 

BennyBlanco

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There are good female leads in Hollywood. They are just few and far between just like their male counterparts. Most hollywood movies in general just suck. I thought a Quiet Place 2 was decent.
 
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Black Widow could be very good and I was looking forward to it. I just don't trust or want to spend any more money on the MCU.
 
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Ulysses 31

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But the GIANT ASS SPACE SHIP that TRAVELLED THROUGH TIME didn't bother you?
Science-fiction and the MCU has shown a lot of magic/fantasy elements throughout the movies so that kind of time/space travelling didn't bother me.

The whole flow of the big battle was vague(how was the battle progressing, which fighters were winning/losing, etc) so I just thought that scene looked forced but it didn't destroy the movie or anything for me.
Come on. We all know the entire MCU could be decimated by a single half competent artilleryman with a MLRS that could coat the area with anti-personnel munitions. A few 500 pound bombs would do the trick as well. Hell, all of Wakanda could be taken by a single Ranger company still struggling with last night's hangover.

The MCU is stupid, all of it. But out of all that idiocy, that one scene is the thing that broke it for you? They have been building all of those characters for 20 films!

I'll give you Captain "I can punch through an intergalactic battleship but not this meatbag in front of me "Marvel though, just a terrible character.
Where did you get that it broke anything? I just found it forced/silly and a cringe way of showing girl power.

A bigger issue is what Endgame did with Thanos, now making him want to destroy all life because it didn't prosper after only 5 years after a cataclysmic event like the snap. Or Captain America, where now he'd sit by and let all the bad things he knows about happen again.
 
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jason10mm

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....Or Captain America, where now he'd sit by and let all the bad things he knows about happen again.
Interesting point. I'm sure eventually we will get the adventures of Cap A through time.

Personally I'd like to think that from his frame of reference things turned out "pretty good" and he doesn't want to risk making things worse by interfering. But I'm sure a story could be told where he and Peggy prevent MUCH WORSE stuff in secret.

But I'm also sure that tons of cringe level nonsense like Cap and Peggy having a kid that she gives to her sister to raise and it ends up being Sharon Carter so Cap kinda macked on his own daughter will happen as well, comic shit being comic shit.
 

Raven117

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A man somehow is still allowed to lose and to grow from lost and grief. That is what makes movies interesting and what makes characters relatable. Rambo in first blood was not such an icon, because he was a killer, but because people could identify with this soldier tossed away by society.

But a female lead can never do that, because she is not allowed to lose, which would mean she is weak. We only have strong women in Hollywood. So she also can never lose against a man. Which takes away the stakes, the drama and the opportunity for growth. That is why not even girls bought Rey dolls, because she was boring. She did not inspire anybody.

That is why Stan Lee made Spiderman, a superhero with problems. The whole silver age was about that. Relatable heroes, which made comics the success they were. But the female hero and the minority hero can't have problems, because in the mind of Hollywood and the creators and more importantly Twitter, that would make them look weak. When Black Widow once talked about her past with Bruce Banner, they went crazy.
Again, you are too focused on the gender of the protagonist. Honestly, how many other male protagonists are written the same way now (ie, no doubt, basically infallible).

Its where the industry is in terms of is accepted in writing. While the movies are spectacles, its ultimately junk food, as our subconscious is not relating to what is being shown.

Think of the great movies (doesn't have to be action). They all have a deep subtext of what is really going on....this makes that even though the action is fantastical, how the characters are developed makes them relatable to us. Makes the whole movie richer.
 

MastaKiiLA

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Wait...what?

Atomic Blonde - literally gets her ass kicked all movie long. She wins, but just barely. She's more grounded than John Wick.

Proud Mary - I can't remember perfectly, but she also gets her ass kicked throughout that movie. Her character gets lots of development throughout the film.

The Hunt - Same.

Underwater - Same.

Miss Bala. Black and Blue. Same and same.

The OP reads more like confirmation bias than reality. You can go through the droves of male-lead action flicks, and find an absolute glut of Mary Sues who take multiple levels in badass, seemingly out of nowhere, to overcome the odds. At the same time, you can find more grounded films as well. This isn't an issue of any Hollywood agenda. No need to paint with such a wide brush. This is a matter of good storytelling and bad storytelling, and it affects movies with leads of all genders.

Watch more movies. Broaden your horizons. The Rambo era also had Steven Segal and JCVD cheesing their way to victory over hoards of faceless mooks. Lord knows there have be multiple pages on TVTropes dedicated to the kind of shlock we got back in the 80s and 90s, decades before anyone started accusing Hollywood of having some imagined SJW agenda. Yes, back during the glory days the OP espouses, when you got a super-rare La Femme Nikita or Long Kiss Goodnight. Femme fatale movies were insanely rare, and mostly hot garbage. Meanwhile, we forget that for every movie that Stallone "lost" in, he'd have 2 or 3 more where he would mow down a bunch of commies while hip-firing a minigun.

I think action flicks (and just movies in general) have gotten better with time. Better characters, better character development, and the best ones manage to avoid a mountain of lame tropes that have build up over a half century of Hollywood's movie factory churning out mostly mediocre garbage. Yeah, there will be some movies where a woman overcomes overwhelming odds to prevail over some enemy. However, there will be even more movies where a man does the same thing, within the same timespan.

This is about bad writing, not any perceived agenda. The same year that we got John Wick went on a kill-crazy rampage to track down Santino, Lorraine Broughton was collecting a myriad of scars while barely escaping a bunch of East German goons. I don't really want to see the hero die at the end of a movie anyway. Would The Raid Redemption have been a better movie if Rama died in that building? Would anyone have wanted to see Judge Dredd die before taking Ma-Ma out? The hero doesn't have to die or lose to make a good movie. Tension can be ratcheted up to high levels without that kind of outcome. It just takes good writing, and good direction.
 

Lupingosei

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Again, you are too focused on the gender of the protagonist. Honestly, how many other male protagonists are written the same way now (ie, no doubt, basically infallible).
Because gender is all the matters. Tony Stark could be an arrogant asshole in hist first movie and learn from his mistakes. But only because he is a man.

Because of some crazy bullshit character growth in movies is now tied to gender. One is already perfect like Rey, Harley Quinn, Captain Marvel, the other has to learn to make amends and maybe become a more interesting and relatable person. (Tony, Thor, Doctor Strange, ...)

Falcon and the Winter or Wanda soldier are good examples. Look how female characters are treated and then how the men are. Does Carly ever have to change, have any doubts, was she ever called out for what she is? And then look at the male characters, their arc, and how they changed.

Or again, do you think there could be a female version of the Joker movie in today's Hollywood?
 
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GymWolf

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It's much worse in the UK, with the new BFI rules.

Basically only white straight men can be evil, and you can't harm women. There is even a rule against using people with scars on their face as bad guys :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Art is dead.
You are shitting me, aren't you?!
 

Outlier

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What qualifies as a "Hollywood" movie?

I've seen a few female lead movies in the past few years and they were great. Not sure they were Hollywood, though.

Mostly because the stories had NOTHING to do with modern day social political topics.
 

MastaKiiLA

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Wasn't that movie written in 2015, made in 2017 and shelved for 3 years?
When the script was developed is meaningless. Most stories are retreads/derivative of something that came long before. The movies you gripe about could be gender swapped, and have the same exact criticism. Your real problem is that you haven't watched a lot of movies. You're dealing with confirmation bias based on the sample size you're working with. If you look around, there are movies with female leads that are written well. There are also lots of women leads not written well. The ratio probably plays out the same or worse for male leads, as there seem to be a larger number of male lead movies, and most of them are trash.


If you are talking about action movies, you gotta have the hero’s journey. But this arc requires that the hero or heroine have flaws. But that is forbidden by modern politics- you cannot grow if you are already perfect.

Wonder Woman is a good example. She simply needs to lose patience with men so that she can steamroll them. So the film cannot do any realistic character analysis, because the men are simplified beyond recognition, and Wonder Woman is at a point of perfection qualitatively beyond what any human can reach.
Wonder Woman is just female Superman. This is a DC problem, where they made certain characters way too OP, to the point where there's little that can be done with the characters without driving the fanboys into a fucking rage. Marvel's heroes are generally more fallible, which allows for better story arcs, like Thor and Stark had. By comparison, Steve Rogers' character arc is fairly flat, since his imbued purity didn't allow for much deviation from the boy scout character he is. Don't get me wrong, I love the Cap movies, but I don't think they were great because we got to see the titular character grow as an individual.
 

tsumake

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The real question is where are all the cool male personas in Hollywood? All the A-listers are above 50. The Rock is utterly boring and groomed to a dull sheen. John Cena speaks Mandarin. They won’t allow Terry Crews to shine. It’s all so…boring.

Dashing male leads have been a tradition since Douglas Fairbanks, and they’re throwing that all away.
 

MastaKiiLA

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The real question is where are all the cool male personas in Hollywood? All the A-listers are above 50. The Rock is utterly boring and groomed to a dull sheen. John Cena speaks Mandarin. They won’t allow Terry Crews to shine. It’s all so…boring.

Dashing male leads have been a tradition since Douglas Fairbanks, and they’re throwing that all away.
When he's not looting sacred ruins, Dylan O'Brien is good in the disturbingly racist American Assassin (I know, it was painting him as somewhat radicalized by the trauma he suffered), and Love and Monsters. Hollywood has tried to make Taylor Kitsch happen, and people just haven't taken to him, much to my chagrin. Ryan Reynolds pivoted nicely from wise-cracking rom-commer to wise-cracking action star, but people only went to see Deadpool. Michael B. Jordan seems to be taking on more action stuff lately. Michael Fassbender could be good, if he hired a new agent to keep him away from terrible movies. Henry Cavil was also in one of my favorite films, Man from UNCLE. Armie Hammer could be something once his weird sex fetish thing blows over.

There are good male action stars, and some with potential. The issue is there aren't any killer roles like a John McClane or Ethan Hunt to make them stick. American Assassin's Rapp could have been a great character to build around, if he was more likable. As is, I don't know if there's much of an appetite for whatever anti-Islam shit he was on for half that movie. I think they kinda ruined his potential with that obsession.

Chris Hemsworth could be the best thing going for a "youth" movement, if he can hook up with Russo for another round of Tyler Rake. Then again, his nemesis in that film, Saju, had just as much to do with making that movie as epic as it was.
 
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tsumake

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When he's not looting sacred ruins, Dylan O'Brien is good in the disturbingly racist American Assassin (I know, it was painting him as somewhat radicalized by the trauma he suffered), and Love and Monsters. Hollywood has tried to make Taylor Kitsch happen, and people just haven't taken to him, much to my chagrin. Ryan Reynolds pivoted nicely from wise-cracking rom-commer to wise-cracking action star, but people only went to see Deadpool. Michael B. Jordan seems to be taking on more action stuff lately. Michael Fassbender could be good, if he hired a new agent to keep him away from terrible movies. Henry Cavil was also in one of my favorite films, Man from UNCLE. Armie Hammer could be something once his weird sex fetish thing blows over.

There are good male action stars, and some with potential. The issue is there aren't any killer roles like a John McClane or Ethan Hunt to make them stick. American Assassin's Rapp could have been a great character to build around, if he was more likable. As is, I don't know if there's much of an appetite for whatever anti-Islam shit he was on for half that movie. I think they kinda ruined his potential with that obsession.

Chris Hemsworth could be the best thing going for a "youth" movement, if he can hook up with Russo for another round of Tyler Rake. Then again, his nemesis in that film, Saju, had just as much to do with making that movie as epic as it was.

1. Perhaps the one you mentioned can make great films but they are muzzled by the current sociopolitical climates

2. With few exceptions none of them have the larger-than-life charisma of older leading men. I have yet to see any “cool” factor with these younger actors. I like Cavill and Hemsworth but people aren’t going to reminisce about them 30 years from now like Arnie and Sly.


Who would say something like this today?
 

clem84

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Would we get a movie today, in which the female protagonist gets shot into the chest with a shotgun by some hillbilly killer working as a bouncer in a strip club? Or would she have to learn from an abusive master, who hates women, especially American women? People like Tarantino are on their way out of Hollywood.
I was going to say, we would if the movie was made by Tarantino. You're right that he's on his way out, but he can't be the only human being who will want to make the movies he wants to make, and not give in to modern political correctness. Somebody will step up to the plate.
 

MastaKiiLA

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1. Perhaps the one you mentioned can make great films but they are muzzled by the current sociopolitical climates

2. With few exceptions none of them have the larger-than-life charisma of older leading men. I have yet to see any “cool” factor with these younger actors. I like Cavill and Hemsworth but people aren’t going to reminisce about them 30 years from now like Arnie and Sly.


Who would say something like this today?
1. No they're not. Irreverent movies are still made in the same volume today as any before, pandemic-adjusted...of course. You just need to know where to look. Adam Devine has been in a few edgy comedies that I've seen recently. Most movie releases are not major Hollywood films. I watch an unhealthy number of movies (2-3 per day), and I honestly don't see anything that's stifled by the modern climate. Everything in life is shaped by the world around it, but stifled? Nah. That's looking for a problem that doesn't exist IMO.

2. Did you also consider that 30 years ago, people couldn't pull the same shit as 60-70 years ago? Shocking, I know. Would you look back at the 50s to 70s as some romantic time period for film? It's common for people to romanticize the period of time they associate most with their own discovery and youth, but that's not really a universal thing. As a black man, I wouldn't say those early-20th century times were so great. Yet people my parents' age love to wax poetic about "the good old days." Good for who exactly? You get what I'm saying?

Now what does all that mean in the context of this thread? It means that while times change, creativity just finds ways to work within the established norms of the times. No one can do black face anymore. Does that mean creativity has been stifled? Not really. Most of us will look back at that time period as offensive now. Similarly some of the rampant misogyny won't be looked back on so fondly as more time passes.

You don't know how people in the future will look back on Cavill and Hemsworth, because not enough time has elapsed. Some of it might be due to different genres being more popular than back then. Chris Evans, RDJ, and others might be considered the golden era of Hollywood for kids in the future, who have been binging on a decade plus of Marvel movies. As more time passes, the 80s/90s action stars are probably going to be seen as campy actors starring in cheesy paint-by-numbers action flicks that pale in comparison to more sophisticated tales with more impressive visuals. I was a child of the 80s slasher flicks, and I still love a good Hellraiser or Nightmare on Elm Street rerun. However, I won't deny that horror movies are generally better today than those slasher flicked that I loved so much. I personally enjoy watching the art of visual storytelling evolve over time. I don't want to become so cynical that I dismiss the many gems that appear each year, just because I don't sift through enough garbage to find them.
 

tsumake

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1. No they're not. Irreverent movies are still made in the same volume today as any before, pandemic-adjusted...of course. You just need to know where to look. Adam Devine has been in a few edgy comedies that I've seen recently. Most movie releases are not major Hollywood films. I watch an unhealthy number of movies (2-3 per day), and I honestly don't see anything that's stifled by the modern climate. Everything in life is shaped by the world around it, but stifled? Nah. That's looking for a problem that doesn't exist IMO.

2. Did you also consider that 30 years ago, people couldn't pull the same shit as 60-70 years ago? Shocking, I know. Would you look back at the 50s to 70s as some romantic time period for film? It's common for people to romanticize the period of time they associate most with their own discovery and youth, but that's not really a universal thing. As a black man, I wouldn't say those early-20th century times were so great. Yet people my parents' age love to wax poetic about "the good old days." Good for who exactly? You get what I'm saying?

Now what does all that mean in the context of this thread? It means that while times change, creativity just finds ways to work within the established norms of the times. No one can do black face anymore. Does that mean creativity has been stifled? Not really. Most of us will look back at that time period as offensive now. Similarly some of the rampant misogyny won't be looked back on so fondly as more time passes.

You don't know how people in the future will look back on Cavill and Hemsworth, because not enough time has elapsed. Some of it might be due to different genres being more popular than back then. Chris Evans, RDJ, and others might be considered the golden era of Hollywood for kids in the future, who have been binging on a decade plus of Marvel movies. As more time passes, the 80s/90s action stars are probably going to be seen as campy actors starring in cheesy paint-by-numbers action flicks that pale in comparison to more sophisticated tales with more impressive visuals. I was a child of the 80s slasher flicks, and I still love a good Hellraiser or Nightmare on Elm Street rerun. However, I won't deny that horror movies are generally better today than those slasher flicked that I loved so much. I personally enjoy watching the art of visual storytelling evolve over time. I don't want to become so cynical that I dismiss the many gems that appear each year, just because I don't sift through enough garbage to find them.

You want to do the whole “up with progress” thing, that’s cool. You sound like one of those insular LA types who thinks the the industry is the cultural center of the universe. But hey, you do you😎.
 
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Raven117

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Because gender is all the matters. Tony Stark could be an arrogant asshole in hist first movie and learn from his mistakes. But only because he is a man.

Because of some crazy bullshit character growth in movies is now tied to gender. One is already perfect like Rey, Harley Quinn, Captain Marvel, the other has to learn to make amends and maybe become a more interesting and relatable person. (Tony, Thor, Doctor Strange, ...)

Falcon and the Winter or Wanda soldier are good examples. Look how female characters are treated and then how the men are. Does Carly ever have to change, have any doubts, was she ever called out for what she is? And then look at the male characters, their arc, and how they changed.

Or again, do you think there could be a female version of the Joker movie in today's Hollywood?
Again, you are focused on the wrong there here.

you want better written women. I agree (as well as better writing for men). Or maybe you don’t. I don’t know. It’s your approach to this that is missing the point.
 

highrider

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The real shame is that people seem to ignore Sigourney Weaver, Linda Hamilton now. Like these were ideal action templates for women, but of course the current ideology today is unable to show women as anything but perfect. It’s much like real life 😂
 
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tsumake

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Again, you are focused on the wrong there here.

you want better written women. I agree (as well as better writing for men). Or maybe you don’t. I don’t know. It’s your approach to this that is missing the point.

Well, it could be argued that better written characters would mean honest characterization. That is sadly in short supply.
 

Zeroing

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So many things why this is happening.

“Disney effect” where depictions of women were perfect and in their “journey” changing everyone’s with kindness.. then they started adapting into movies, even the female villains stopped being “evil”
The assumption was that those villains were “misunderstood”

Hollywood have this thing call “screen testing” where they show the movie and random people give opinions - in the past it helped turn meh movies into good ones, the opposite can also happen.

there’s also this weird concept that women enduring anything view as physically brutal is for “the male gaze” and women who do share “hyper aggression” are just male characters with a female actor.

So much things go into why we are into this “trend”
 

Raven117

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Well, it could be argued that better written characters would mean honest characterization. That is sadly in short supply.
Agreed. But how you argue is just as if not more important than the point you are trying to make.

The thing is… all this “action/super hero” stuff all doesn’t ring true in your subconscious. Not for the fantastical but for the human element.

Eventually this will change as people want entertainment that can speak to them on a real relatable level.
 

tsumake

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Agreed. But how you argue is just as if not more important than the point you are trying to make.

The thing is… all this “action/super hero” stuff all doesn’t ring true in your subconscious. Not for the fantastical but for the human element.

Eventually this will change as people want entertainment that can speak to them on a real relatable level.

I agree with you, save one point: a lot, if most, people think these characters are “relatable.”
 

Raven117

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I agree with you, save one point: a lot, if most, people think these characters are “relatable.”
That is a total other can of worms (Ie, over inflated sense of self where they believe themselves “infallable”….. now that is something very interesting to discuss really…. Assuming you are right.)
 
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tsumake

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That is a total other can of worms (Ie, over inflated sense of self where they believe themselves “infallable”….. now that is something very interesting to discuss really…. Assuming you are right.)

Honesty, I hope I’m not.
 

Corpsepyre

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You get way, way more horrendous big budget action films with third-grade male leads, with zero character development, growth, or decent acting. Just see how many turds Bruce Willis has been pushing out lately. This has fuck-all to do with women.
 
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tsumake

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You get way, way more horrendous big budget action films with third-grade male leads, with zero character development, growth, or decent acting. Just see how many turds Bruce Willis has been pushing out lately. This has fuck-all to do with women.

Is he really in need of the cash?
 

vpance

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Movies these days in general are so formulaic or simply poor imitations of old ones. This new age Hollywood female lead is just another predictable formula piled on top of the rest and it's not helping matters.
 
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tsumake

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Movies these days in general are so formulaic or simply poor imitations of old ones. This new age Hollywood female lead is just another predictable formula piled on top of the rest and it's not helping matters.

That is the heart of the matter. OP’s argument is a symptom of this.
 

DeafTourette

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Some of y'all sound joyless and look at everything through a political lens.

I liked Atomic Blonde. Liked Fury Road. Long.kiss goodnight. TONS of good female lead movies. Right now, it's hard to crack 100 mill opening weekend.

And someone here had the absolute WORST take on the first Wonder Woman movie. Like he is just going off what he HEARD. LOL!
 
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FireFistAce

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Some of y'all sound joyless and look at everything through a political lens.

I liked Atomic Blonde. Liked Fury Road. Long.kiss goodnight. TONS of good female lead movies. Right now, it's hard to crack 100 mill opening weekend.

And someone here had the absolute WORST take on the first Wonder Woman movie. Like he is just going off what he HEARD. LOL!
People wanting well written characters is not being joyless. I mean are people joyless for not liking trash reality TV shows?