Inclusiveness in movies and what the actual hell?

[hatchx]

Sorry if this comes across a little like a rant. Really just looking for some thoughts and wisdom from fellow gaffers.

So I just got back from seeing Baby Driver. It was great. Just great. I got home and told a friend how good it was when she responded that she didn't think it was very good because there weren't enough female characters. In other words, the movie was 'non-inclusive' or 'sexist'. Her argument was that the movie had the opportunity to have more female characters, and didn't. She also complained the movie didn't have any LGBTQ characters.

Is Baby Driver a sexist movie for not having more representation from female characters? Is Baby Driver a homophobic movie for having no LGBTQ representation? Is any movie starring a white male racist because it's not starring a black or Asian male?

It kind of spurred us into the debate of inclusiveness in movies. Her point was that every movie should have equal representation of genders/racers, where my point was that there should be no rules or limits to storytelling (and, often due to setting or time period, it is impossible for every movie to have such a level of equal inclusiveness).

I brought up the movie 'Buried'. A movie about a single actor suck in a box. I asked how that movie could have possibly represented all genders/races, or movies like it. She then responded with 'well of course they cast a white man, it could have easily been a coloured female'. And okay, I guess they could have - but it's the writer/filmmakers/storytellers decision and at what point is it unfair to place these social metrics of wrong-right on storytellers who are telling fictional stories?!

The conversation ended with her literally calling me an 'exceptionalized, entitled white male' and that she was done with the argument. I was okay to end the argument (it was all generally healthy and respectful after all), but I was not okay with her bringing my skin colour into it. I was actually quite offended by it (but am I allowed to feel this way? Does that make me....insensitive? Should I be okay with a remark like this?)



So, what am I supposed to think about all of this?

 

[Isotropy]

I definitely want more LGBT representation in film (TV seems to be a lot better at it right now)..

..but "every movie should feature every kind of person all at once" is bonkers levels of nonsense.

 

[SystemBug]

We all bleed the same but some of us seem to actually bleed more often than others because society treats some of us a whole lot worse.

 

[- J - D -]

Man, I legitimately read through your entire post, reached the part where you invoked "social justice warrior" and then immediately regretted giving that much of my time to you.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Baby Driver is Baby driver. Sure it'd be nice to include people of every race color and creed, but it's not a necessary requirement.

 

[cartographer]

Man, I legitimately read through your entire post, reached the part where you invoked "social justice warrior" and then immediately regretted giving that much of my time to you.

The ScarJo part got me before the rest of it.

 

[Corpekata]

I mean, you're arguing against your friend. Argue with them (though it reads more like a strawman than a real person). Your entire point hinges upon a very specific person's opinions that aren't likely to even be agreed upon by a wretched hive of SJW and villainly like Neogaf.

What are you looking to get out of this post? Most people don't agree with her, so.....what are we supposed to discuss?

 

[The Mule]

I definitely want more LGBT representation in film (TV seems to be a lot better at it right now)..

..but "every movie should feature every kind of person all at once" is bonkers levels of nonsense.

I agree with this.

OP, your friend is an idiot. Sorry.

 

[hatchx]

Man, I legitimately read through your entire post, reached the part where you invoked "social justice warrior" and then immediately regretted giving that much of my time to you.

I'm confused, is Social Justice Warrior a taboo term?

I mean, you're arguing against your friend. Argue with them (though it reads more like a strawman than a real person). Your entire point hinges upon a very specific person's opinions that aren't likely to even be agreed upon by a wretched hive of SJW and villainly like Neogaf.

What are you looking to get out of this post? Most people don't agree with her, so.....what are we supposed to discuss?

I guess I was just made to feel like a real bigot by my friend. Like I'm some uneducated racist. Like my thoughts shouldn't matter because I'm white and don't understand. I am just confused how to feel and hoped maybe people here could elaborate on what I'm missing? Seems like a few people here already have issues with some of the things I've said?

 

[jack_package_200]

I knew the direction this was gonna go just from the title of thread.

I just didn't expect it to go that far.

 

[Goofalo]

Man, I legitimately read through your entire post, reached the part where you invoked "social justice warrior" and then immediately regretted giving that much of my time to you.

This.

I thought, and still do, that you have legitimate arguments to make.

But I also think you're a dick.

 

[cr0w]

Seems like you have your opinion already, no need for any of us to chime in.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

Im with you OP. Not everything needs inclusiveness. Just remember that with this rant, you forever forfeit the right of saying "Why arent there any straight/white characters" in any kind of anything ever again.

 

[Costanza-san]

I haven't seen Baby Driver yet so I can't speak for it. But what I'll say is that it can be frustrating going into a movie that you hear is highly regarded only to find that it's yet another one that lacks good and respectful representation.
As for this:

The conversation ended with her literally calling me an 'exceptionalized, entitled white male' and that she was done with the argument. I was okay to end the argument (it was all generally healthy and respectful after all), but I was not okay with her bringing my skin colour into it. I was actually quite offended by it because I feel like my points weren't being respected (but am I allowed to feel this way? Does that make me....insensitive? Should I be okay with a remark like this?)

This is her saying that you need to realize that your privilege probably has some effect on your opinion. This is a fact of life and people have to start realizing it, so it's necessary to keep saying it. It isn't that she wasn't respecting your talking points, but that she felt it was necessary to remind you of your privilege and how it manifests in your arguments.

 

[KillLaCam]

Yeah some people have really weird requirements for enjoying things. A good movie would be good no matter who's in it. Representation doesn't automatically make something a better product. Sure it's a good thing but it doesn't necessary effect the quality of most products.

Unless it's a movie about a specific culture or something like that is course. But this movie isn't

Obviously being represented more would be great but that's not a requirement for something to actually be good

 

[Seesaw15]

Man, I legitimately read through your entire post, reached the part where you invoked "social justice warrior" and then immediately regretted giving that much of my time to you.

Bullet dodged. I stopped before that.

OP you sound like a bit of an asshole so your friend was probably giving you a hard time when she said every movie.

Yes directors can hire whoever they want but let's not pretend movies are some sort of meritocracy where only the best people get the roles. Movies aren't just going to correct themselves naturally. People want diversity and we're going to demand it and call out films that don't have it.

 

[zeemumu]

People like to have diversity/be represented in film, or media in general.


That said, I wouldn't call Baby Driver a bad movie because there weren't enough female or LGBTQ characters.

 

[Jintor]

Your friend should go watch Spiderman btw

Diverse as hell and it's good as hell

 

[Order]

People like seeing more than the default white cast in movies.

It's not really a shocking thing.

 

[Meier]

I'm confused, is Social Justice Warrior a taboo term?

It is without fail used as a pejorative term. My wife had some complaints about the casting in Baby Driver (i.e. the white male lead being able to get out alive whereas a minority probably would not) and the fact that Lily Collins isn't particularly believable. I can see where some of those complaints could exist on these issues (more Lily, the other is more commentary than an issue with the film IMO). I think they did a good job at having a diverse cast though.

 

[mAcOdIn]

It's my opinion that it's not so much individual movies that are sexist but the entire collection of artworks themselves. I'm all for the general call for more diversity in films and am ok with people's claims one way or another on specific entries, but I don't think that in reality a lot of specific titles are indeed sexist, if that makes sense. I haven't seen Baby Driver but I've seen lots of non-diverse movies however, taken in a vacuum I wouldn't call any of them sexist or racist or what have you but considering the entire body of work that came out around them I can totally get the claim that Hollywood itself is racist, sexist and whatever. Which does create a kind of unfair situation where a director's like "I'm not racist,sexist, misogynist this is just the story I wanted to tell" and where that person's probably completely telling the truth but unfortunately everyone else is also telling the same stories for the same people. They're essentially making the right movies all at the wrong(same) time.

And that's where we are, we need to increase the amount of representation and the targeted audiences of films to a point where someone can make a non-diverse movie and it not be the norm in Hollywood. Until then people need to continue on with the pressure on Hollywood but I think people behind the cameras and their fans need to not take it personally, it's the whole system that's broken not specific cogs in the system.

 

[lightskintwin]

I think it's good to be critical of media as a whole not doing a good job of being inclusive.

I think it's bad to be critical of a specific piece of media and saying it did a bad job of being inclusive.

 

[Pau]

I wouldn't call someone a bigot for enjoying a movie that isn't inclusive, but I totally get being so fed up with the lack of representation that it taints your ability to really enjoy such a movie.

 

[hatchx]

It is without fail used as a pejorative term.

Did not know that. I edited it out. Didn't meant to offend anyone.

 

[Aurongel]

Clearly Baby Driver is a film that supports an oppressive conservative agenda. It probably secured Donald Trump a second term.

 

[Secret Fawful]

Ultimately who cares what colour skin we have or what sexual orientation we are? We all bleed in red, we are all human, we are all the fucking same.

Oh, you summer child...

 

[Keri]

I think it's fine to let each story teller determine the representation they want in their story, but it's also completely fine if a woman or minority personally dislikes the story, because they can't relate to any of the characters in it. Also, if that's the case (which it almost certainly will be), then the producers of media may want to take notice of that, when they select which stories to mass produce for profit.

 

[LotusHD]

I wouldn't call someone a bigot for enjoying a movie that isn't inclusive, but I totally get being so fed up with the lack of representation that it taints your ability to really enjoy such a movie.

Same. Sometimes it gnaws at me, other times it doesn't.

 

[Costanza-san]

I think it's worth thinking about how privilege might tie in with how one views this topic. I think that if you aren't a minority in any way, it can be harder to see how someone can have a negative view of a movie because of its lack of representation. And that's because you don't have the problem of not seeing people that look like you and share your culture in the entertainment that so many people enjoy.

 

[KillLaCam]

I think it's good to be critical of media as a whole not doing a good job of being inclusive.

I think it's bad to be critical of a specific piece of media and saying it did a bad job of being inclusive.

Yeah this is how I look at it too.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I think there's an appeal to seeing people similar to you, yes. And it does suck to almost never see people like you represented and/or given lead roles.

That's why Spider-Man was so refreshing. Even if the lead himself (Iron Man) is white.

 

[Conciliator]

I think it's fine to let each story teller determine the representation they want in their story, but it's also completely fine if a woman or minority personally dislikes the story, because they can't relate to any of the characters in it. Also, if that's the case (which it almost certainly will be), then the producers of media may want to take notice of that, when they select which stories to mass produce for profit.

this is kind of the raw truth of it

 

[lightskintwin]

Your friend should go watch Spiderman btw

Diverse as hell and it's good as hell

One could argue that Spiderman Homecoming is "artificial diversity" or that the diversity is merely "window dressing", where all the main characters are still White, and all the Side characters are Ethnic.

By the way, A lot of media is guilty of doing this and calling it "Diversity"

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Your friend should go watch Spiderman btw

Diverse as hell and it's good as hell

I'm not American and I've never been to New York, but I was taken back by the diversity of students I saw in Peter's high school. To be honest, I'm really not used to seeing that in a Hollywood AAA movie set in the US lol

 

[Grizzlyjin]

I mean, Edgar Wright can't write for female characters to save his life. We already knew that. I can see why your friend might be annoyed with Baby Driver if they've picked up on that pattern beforehand.

That being said, you're just not going to get full representation in every movie.

Edit: Although, Baby Driver is set in Atlanta, which is one of the chocolate cities. Not having more Black characters is pretty laughable

 

[Dongs Macabre]

You don't need to have [minority group] in a movie.

You also don't need white people, but only one of them is considered superfluous.

 

[Media]

Inclusiveness is about the whole picture, not parts of it. Hollywood in general should improve representation in movies. Baby Driver is fine as a part of that picture because it doesn't take liberty or ignore something (I assume I haven't seen it yet, really want to)

While something like an anime inspired movie changing the main character to a white women who used to be an Asian is a problem, I don't think a single movie that has no issues such as that can be called out when it's the whole industry that's the problem.

If that makes any sense?

 

[Pau]

I think it's fine to let each story teller determine the representation they want in their story, but it's also completely fine if a woman or minority personally dislikes the story, because they can't relate to any of the characters in it. Also, if that's the case (which it almost certainly will be), then the producers of media may want to take notice of that, when they select which stories to mass produce for profit.

Sometimes it's not even about relating because as minorities and women we're used to finding ways to relate to characters that don't share our identities. For me it's just feeling like people like me aren't worth being anything beyond a token (usually stereotypical) character if we even get that much. It doesn't help that it happens more in the genres I enjoy.

 

[Costanza-san]

You don't need to have [minority group] in a movie.

You also don't need white people, but only one of them is considered superfluous.

Pretty damn much.

 

[hatchx]

It's my opinion that it's not so much individual movies that are sexist but the entire collection of artworks themselves. I'm all for the general call for more diversity in films and am ok with people's claims one way or another on specific entries, but I don't think that in reality a lot of specific titles are indeed sexist, if that makes sense. I haven't seen Baby Driver but I've seen lots of non-diverse movies however, taken in a vacuum I wouldn't call any of them sexist or racist or what have you but considering the entire body of work that came out around them I can totally get the claim that Hollywood itself is racist, sexist and whatever. Which does create a kind of unfair situation where a director's like "I'm not racist,sexist, misogynist this is just the story I wanted to tell" and where that person's probably completely telling the truth but unfortunately everyone else is also telling the same stories for the same people. They're essentially making the right movies all at the wrong(same) time.

And that's where we are, we need to increase the amount of representation and the targeted audiences of films to a point where someone can make a non-diverse movie and it not be the norm in Hollywood. Until then people need to continue on with the pressure on Hollywood but I think people behind the cameras and their fans need to not take it personally, it's the whole system that's broken not specific cogs in the system.

I think it's worth thinking about how privilege might tie in with how one views this topic. I think that if you aren't a minority in any way, it can be harder to see how someone can have a negative view of a movie because of its lack of representation. And that's because you don't have the problem of not seeing people that look like you and share your culture in the entertainment that so many people enjoy.

These are good responses. However, is this to suggest we should expect the same level of inclusion of white people in Nigerian or Indian films? It just seems like whites are over-represented for the simple reason that the majority of the US is white? Makes sense that if ~70% of the US is white, then the US film industry would be represented by ~70% white? Am I wrong in this thinking?

 

[lightskintwin]

Inclusiveness is about the whole picture, not parts of it. Hollywood in general should improve representation in movies. Baby Driver is fine as a part of that picture because it doesn't take liberty or ignore something (I assume I haven't seen it yet, really want to)

While something like an anime inspired movie changing the main character to a white women who used to be an Asian is a problem, I don't think a single movie that has no issues such as that can be called out when it's the whole industry that's the problem.

If that makes any sense?

For me, there's no issue in adapting an Anime for a Western audience and casting a White woman as the lead. The issue is that we don't cast Asian Americans in general, yet alone as leads in our films.

 

[Joyful]

artists having creative freedom is sacrosanct

 

[Pau]

I'm not American and I've never been to New York, but I was taken back by the diversity of students I saw in Peter's high school. To be honest, I'm really not used to seeing that in a Hollywood AAA movie set in the US lol

The majority of students in NYC public schools are students of color but it's also one of the most segregated education systems in the country.

 

[Jintor]

One could argue that Spiderman Homecoming is "artificial diversity" or that the diversity is merely "window dressing", where all the main characters are still White, and all the Side characters are Ethnic.

By the way, A lot of media is guilty of doing this and calling it "Diversity"

I mean I really wish Spidey had been miles or they had gone for a black Peter or something but given what they had it was pretty good

 

[Jintor]

These are good responses. However, is this to suggest we should expect the same level of inclusion of white people in Nigerian or Indian films? It just seems like whites are over-represented for the simple reason that the majority of the US is white? Makes sense that if ~70% of the US is white, then the US film industry would be represented by ~70% white? Am I wrong in this thinking?

Whataboutism is dumb

 

[Slayven]

Your friend should go watch Spiderman btw

Diverse as hell and it's good as hell

.

 

[hatchx]

For me, there's no issue in adapting an Anime for a Western audience and casting a White woman as the lead. The issue is that we don't cast Asian Americans in general, yet alone as leads in our films.

Yes, it is weird, but it's not as if there aren't a ton of movies with Asian leads coming from China, Japan, and Korea.

If Asians represent about 6% of the US population, it kind of makes sense that the films made in the US primarily for the US would cast about ~6% Asian? I just don't think these un-equal representations of races in Hollywood comes from a malicious place, more just the way the numbers fall into place.

 

[Media]

For me, there's no issue in adapting an Anime for a Western audience and casting a White woman as the lead. The issue is that we don't cast Asian Americans in general, yet alone as leads in our films.

I can understand that too. Like, Death Note seems like it will be decent for different reasons? Even though it cast a white male lead, it moved the whole story and changed the settings, etc, while Ghost in the Shell pulled a Get Out on Asians.

More Asian folk do need to be cast in better roles. I feel like if Baby Driver had cast an Asain (does it? I really haven't seen it yet lol) it'd be a token role and not well fleshed out and that would be disappointing.

Or maybe as a Native American woman, I'm just really, really used to not seeing my race represented well on screen?

 

[FlowersisBritish]

These are good responses. However, is this to suggest we should expect the same level of inclusion of white people in Nigerian or Indian films? It just seems like whites are over-represented for the simple reason that the majority of the US is white? Makes sense that if ~70% of the US is white, then the US film industry would be represented by ~70% white? Am I wrong in this thinking?

The issue with that thinking is that there isn't a 70% ratio of whites in movies. Its a hell of a lot higher(same with women and lgbt members).

 

[Slayven]

Yes, it is weird, but it's not as if there aren't a ton of movies with Asian leads coming from China, Japan, and Korea.

If Asians represent about 6% of the US population, it kind of makes sense that the films made in the US primarily for the US would cast about ~6% Asian? I just don't think these un-equal representations of races in Hollywood comes from a malicious place, more just the way the numbers fall into place.

lol the old Hollywood is a meritocracy, and the numbers game