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Indie Game Scene Drama Bomb: Dyad Dev Tweets Anger about Fish / Indie Game: The Movie

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Apr 18, 2011
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I posted on the IGTM KS page. Hopefully, we get one of the filmmakers in here.

The EXACT same thing happened with The King of Kong...

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1560691/ex-donkey-kong-champ-finally-speaks-out.jhtml

Documentaries are boring... until they are told in such a way as to have an antagonist. Everyone loves to hate the bad guy, and the director will do whatever it takes to make one.

The whole "Documentaries bend the truth" deal is not what is being discussed here, as many people are just coming into this thread and going "but that's what docs do". That is what they do. But the problem here is not that: it's that IGTM may have lied in the credits about someone's lack of involvement. That's going beyond just painting a picture. That's painting the picture and then saying "this is the picture".
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Apr 23, 2010
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More reasons to dislike that masturbatory movie AND Phil Fish? A bumper pack of fun.

How you release one game and make so many enemies along the way is an amazing tale, one that is probably conveniently just grazed upon by the movie.

I also guess this is what happens when you go from mostly positive docu-follow people around things to people that make a business of pissing others off: not really knowing you have to very precisely dot your i's and cross your t's so as to avoid backlash like this.
 

shuri

Banned
Jun 8, 2004
19,313
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The fuck is this? Dyad looks like a strange REZ hack with racing instead. has anyone tried it?

The indie scene is SO annoying sometimes.
 

Barryman

Member
Jan 7, 2009
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For what it's worth, the line was always supposed to read "Phil Fish's ex-business partner was not asked to participate in this film", it was brought to their attention last night, and they've been preparing a new, corrected version to replace the one currently on Steam/streaming/etc.

Ahh yeah, that makes sense. It really just did seem like a typo/misheard request, although the consequences are pretty unfortunate.
 

Perrin

Neo Member
Jan 25, 2012
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I really enjoyed the movie. Resonated with me a lot seeing the frustrations and trials involved in trying to finish a game that means a lot to you. I'm an indie dev myself in the final phases of a long term project so it was all very close to home.

I could see why Degroot would be pissed off how he's portrayed in the movie since he could be seen like a silent bad guy acting behind the scenes. However to me personally that's not how I took the scenes. You could see something messy was going on between him and Phil and we weren't going to get the specifics of the why. I took from the film the intense frustration Phil felt about the whole process and how it was going to ruin his PAX East debut. Which seems reasonably valid. I didn't feel like I had any reason to think Degroot was the bad guy, just that he and Phil were not in agreement and we didn't know why exactly.

I guess if I was being talked about in a film without my side of the story I would be pretty pissed off, especially with a misleading line like that in the credits. However as I say I don't think the film truly demonised Degroot, it just showed how Phil felt about the situation. Which is the story they were telling.

Maybe they can update the master copies of the film to change that line in the credits for future releases. Hopefully that might at least remove the most specific point of contention.

I should probably also mention that I met Phil at IndieCade last year and he seemed like a really reasonable guy, quite honest about his work. Left me bewildered as to why he's such a figure of internet hate.
 

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
Apr 18, 2011
33,525
1
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I should probably also mention that I met Phil at IndieCade last year and he seemed like a really reasonable guy, quite honest about his work. Left me bewildered as to why he's such a figure of internet hate.

The internet hating something should not be bewildering at all.
 

Mato

Member
Sep 23, 2006
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Maybe this is all about making fuss to sell copies of Dyad and Fez.
 

eiskaltnz

Member
Nov 8, 2009
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I don't know how anyone could have thought of the other guy as the 'bad' guy.
Philip is someone who cannot control his emotions and that scene shows it. All it seems like is a messy divorce, I would like to just know what the other guy (Jason was it?) didn't just sign. Why can't he just post and say why? I probably just feel bad for each of them for getting into business with someone who they do not gel with.
As people has mentioned I feel it shows how the different teams deal with everything.


If anyone has seen the movie any felt this other guy was the bad guy I would like to hear that.
 

Endo Punk

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Sep 4, 2011
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This whole indie scene in gaming is stupid. Oh look I made this side scrolling game that you guys used to play 20 years ago. So edgy!

Very rare that a indie game feels genuine, and the indie dev attitude like Fish guy and Blow something sicken me. Watching some trailers of this indie game movie made my stomach churn. So fucking pretentious it was unbelievable.
 

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
Sep 10, 2007
18,377
1
0
Jeez, and just this morning I was wondering when the drama surrounding this move was gonna hit. True story, and it sickens me because it insults the hundreds of other serious people trying to make games out of nothing

This whole indie scene in gaming is stupid. Oh look I made this side scrolling game that you guys used to play 20 years ago. So edgy!

Very rare that a indie game feels genuine,
and the indie dev attitude like Fish guy and Blow something sicken me. Watching some trailers of this indie game movie made my stomach churn. So fucking pretentious it was unbelievable.
C'mon man
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Apr 23, 2010
13,063
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Do you know what pretentious means?

The trailer for Indie Game: The Movie is a literal example of the word. We had this argument before, I won it. Have the good graces to remember :p

Weird to hear that it was just a typo. Thats a pretty big fuck up on their part. Still, documentary unwritten rules kinda dictate if you cant tell both sides of a spat, you leave it absent, no matter how wicked awesome the footage you have of the other guy freaking out is.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
Apr 3, 2008
13,545
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This whole indie scene in gaming is stupid. Oh look I made this side scrolling game that you guys used to play 20 years ago. So edgy!

Very rare that a indie game feels genuine, and the indie dev attitude like Fish guy and Blow something sicken me. Watching some trailers of this indie game movie made my stomach churn. So fucking pretentious it was unbelievable.

Blow means what he says, so pretentious he is not. Maybe he's a little crazy, but we're all a little crazy, right? Can't blame someone for being crazy.

You can hardly say indie games are less genuine than the big-studio counterparts. Especially not when the big titles in the medium are trying to tell stories that are complete bullshit, and there's nothing genuine about them, and one goes "what the fuck is this hammy piece of shit dialogue trying to do here? They must assume I'm emotionally underdeveloped" like every single cutscene.

I guess you just don't like Blow's face, or his voice, or whatever. But what he says is pretty legit stuff.

I get it though, there are dudes out there I don't like for some dumb reason, and I can't listen to them either. I guess that's pretty normal.

Anyway, indie games aren't inherently stupid (what an idiotic notion, I mean, think about what the hell you're saying there), but they're sometimes a bit on-the-nose about what they want you to think (can't say that about Braid though, that much is certain). Plus, a game being a side scroller doesn't make it stupid. It can be very smart and awesome, even if it's going with an aesthetic that should've been outlived by now.
 

Zia

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Oct 15, 2011
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The trailer for Indie Game: The Movie is a literal example of the word. We had this argument before, I won it. Have the good graces to remember :p

Inciting exasperation when engaged for any length of time isn't a good quality. Because someone gives up on speaking to you does not mean you've "won" an "argument."
 

Endo Punk

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Sep 4, 2011
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[...]Anyway, indie games aren't inherently stupid (what an idiotic notion, I mean, think about what the hell you're saying there), but they're sometimes a bit on-the-nose about what they want you to think (can't say that about Braid though, that much is certain). Plus, a game being a side scroller doesn't make it stupid. It can be very smart and awesome, even if it's going with an aesthetic that should've been outlived by now.
I didn't say stupid I said they don't feel genuine. They're trying too hard for some message to compensate for the 'me too' gameplay it really puts me off.

I don't hate side scrollers if gameplay is there. Limbo was dull as dish water I could care less about the message whereas something like Outland was amazing through and through.
 

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
Apr 3, 2008
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I didn't say stupid I said they don't feel genuine. They're trying too hard for some message to compensate for the 'me too' gameplay it really puts me off.

I don't hate side scrollers if gameplay is there. Limbo was dull as dish water I could care less about the message whereas something like Outland was amazing through and through.

Well, I agree to a degree; Limbo was all fluff, really. Once you got over the great animation, great principal pacing and good, albeit trivial, choice of art direction, it doesn't leave any relevant open questions, which isn't a good thing for an artsy game.

And there are a lot of games that fart you into the face with overly elaborately written textboxes out there when it would've probably been better to just not incorporate words, particularly in the indie space.

However, this isn't something you could say about Braid, SMB, or Fez. They're not games trying to be more than they are or whatever.

Not exactly the games I'd criticize for this kinda thing. There are others out there on the level of "here's how I felt like when my grandfather died and also you jump a lot you know", lots of them hanging out on Armor Games, Newgrounds, oozing out of tigsource and the like.
 

GillianSeed79

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Jan 8, 2009
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The best part of the movie was the Super Meat Boy Team Meat segments, even though some of the depressed guy segments seemed a little forced. It gave you a glimpse into what kind of stress there must be making a game with two people who live on two different coasts and the end result felt genuine.

Hearing Blow talk was interesting, but he had already finished Braid by then. And the whole "no one understands me" because Soulja Boy reviewed your game on Youtube seemed like another forced, tortured artist meme that kind of popped up throughout the film.

Fish's stuff was actually kind of interesting, but they spend no time on the other guy's story, so yeah, it's really one sided. Edit: didn't see that part in the credits with the note about the Dyad guy not cooperating.
 

Glix

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Jan 28, 2008
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The trailer for Indie Game: The Movie is a literal example of the word. We had this argument before, I won it. Have the good graces to remember :p

Weird to hear that it was just a typo. Thats a pretty big fuck up on their part. Still, documentary unwritten rules kinda dictate if you cant tell both sides of a spat, you leave it absent, no matter how wicked awesome the footage you have of the other guy freaking out is.

Even this picture annoys me.

Brad S from Giant Bomb had some very very nice things to say about the Dyad guy.

Also, to those saying Dyad isn't out, etc... It should be out very very very soon, so this is actually the perfect time for this sort of thing... if you are a cynic.
 

SteveWinwood

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Aug 10, 2010
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Even this picture annoys me.

Brad S from Giant Bomb had some very very nice things to say about the Dyad guy.

Also, to those saying Dyad isn't out, etc... It should be out very very very soon, so this is actually the perfect time for this sort of thing... if you are a cynic.

I don't think Shoemaker has ever said a bad thing about anyone he's ever met. He's a super nice guy.
 

charsace

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Mar 23, 2007
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They should have a boxing match for charity instead of doing all this silly ass sniping of each other.
 
Jun 9, 2011
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Documentaries are boring... until they are told in such a way as to have an antagonist. Everyone loves to hate the bad guy, and the director will do whatever it takes to make one.

Cosmos would like a word with you. Although I suppose you could argue that mankind serves both hero and antagonist roles in that case.
 
Sep 6, 2011
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I really enjoyed the movie, but I admit I did walk away from it thinking; who was this ex-partner of Fish, why did they have a disagreement and I wonder what his side of the story would be.

It's a shame some things were portrayed as they were, but it was still entertaining. I never once thought he could be a bad guy; just that it'd be interesting to hear his side of it all. Fish did come across as quite aggressive with the way he thought at times, but it's understandable considering the stress he was under.
 

kassatsu

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Mar 26, 2007
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Even this picture annoys me.

Brad S from Giant Bomb had some very very nice things to say about the Dyad guy.

Also, to those saying Dyad isn't out, etc... It should be out very very very soon, so this is actually the perfect time for this sort of thing... if you are a cynic.

The thing is, the guy the movie talks about isn't working on Dyad. He just helped Shawn out in the beginning, demoing the game at PAX and providing some early music tracks which are no longer used. Shawn was just sticking up for him.
 

trinest

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I didn't know about Fez until it was nearing launch and came out. As for all its history I was unaware of it as well.

To be honest the ex-partner sort of came off as a dooshebag at times, you know the typical "dudebro" market. I probably because of this got caught up in the whole drama of the thing and sided with the other guy.

With this stuff rearing its head it will be interesting to see more information from all sides about this matter and to find out what went down and why. Not just this Indie game thing, but the accuaral Polygon formation etc.
 

john tv

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Haven't seen the movie yet, and haven't met Phil in person (tho he was nice enough to design our New Year's card last year), so can't really comment on him, but I have known the "other guy" (Jason) for something like 10-15 years now, and can promise there is not an evil bone in that guy's body. One of the nicest, most down-to-earth dudes you will ever meet.

Can't we all just get along? :)
 

Barryman

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Jan 7, 2009
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Haven't seen the movie yet, and haven't met Phil in person (tho he was nice enough to design our New Year's card last year), so can't really comment on him, but I have known the "other guy" (Jason) for something like 10-15 years now, and can promise there is not an evil bone in that guy's body. One of the nicest, most down-to-earth dudes you will ever meet.

Can't we all just get along? :)

hear hear
 

MRORANGE

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Oct 7, 2010
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UPDATE!!!

Tweeted IGTM yesterday to this thread, no reply but guess what?! 3gb update on Steam!


I knew what the change was already:

Original:






New Update:




Hilarious!
 

jakonovski

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Feb 11, 2008
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Why are so many indies such drama queens? Is it in the auteur gene or something? And why do they always engage in such hilarious bouts of slapfighting?
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Apr 23, 2010
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Why are so many indies such drama queens? Is it in the auteur gene or something? And why do they always engage in such hilarious bouts of slapfighting?

Any creator is making a living by putting up a piece of their creative soul to be adored or torn down by the public at large. Some learn how to deal with the entire process early on naturally, others develop some very deep complexes indeed.
 

jooey

The Motorcycle That Wouldn't Slow Down
Jun 10, 2004
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Why are so many indies such drama queens? Is it in the auteur gene or something? And why do they always engage in such hilarious bouts of slapfighting?

Because it's usually one or two people representing everything about the game inside and out? I mean, if you cracked open the window just a little bit on EA and Activision or something, you'd get the same kind of shit. You just think it's abnormal and are annoyed by it because the window is so wide open from the get-go. Not that the auteur stuff doesn't factor in completely, but in the end, it's just people.
 

BreakyBoy

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Jun 8, 2004
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EDIT for clarity:

It says "Phil Fish's ex-business partner asked not to participate in this film."

What it should say is:

"Phil Fish's ex-business partner was not asked to participate in this film."

UPDATE!!!

Tweeted IGTM yesterday to this thread, no reply but guess what?! 3gb update on Steam!


I knew what the change was already:

Original:






New Update:




Hilarious!

So, aside from changing the world "film" to "movie", they did exactly what was asked of them?

I don't get the "hilarious". Edit 2: Oh derp derp, it's a 3GB update. Well, they're trying to do the right thing and fix their "typo", at least.

Also, as someone who saw it at a local theater a few weeks ago, Phil Fish came off to me (and my not-as-into-the-scene/industry friends) as neurotic. As others have already said, Fish comes off as sort of a neurotic counterpoint to the more personal, quiet depression/despair the SMB guys went through.

At one point the film shows the SMB guys sort of talk about "is it weird that I'm OK with the idea of dying in the effort to get this game out, as long as the game gets released?" Meanwhile, in a scene with Fish, he's asked what he would do if the game fails or isn't ever finished, and his response is a deadpan (read: somewhat frightening) "I'll kill myself". The dichotomy between the two is stark, and in my eyes, purposeful by the director(s) of the film.

Edit: To be extra clear, Fish doesn't come off as a bad guy per se in the film, rather he comes off as extremely stressed out and obsessive about his game. I can't say it's favorable or unfavorable for Fish, but I can say it did come off as honest.