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Indie Games Should Be Cheaper
- Thread starter Robert at Zeboyd Games
- Start date
KojiKnight
Member
Games should be priced at whatever price it sells... Indie devs shouldn't be beholden to some random standard invented by someone or someones just because... My god this is economics 101!
legacyzero
Banned
Depends on the content. Early Access, etc. If you can create a legit benefit as to why I should pay a specific price, then go for it. It's about value.
BOOM.
BOOM.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I'm in the same position. I have never played a Zeboyd game because I wasn't interested in the content, and no budget price would have changed that.
But Cosmic Star Heroine caught my attention really early, and I've been following it ever since. And not once have I even wondered what it would cost. I was going to buy it because I wanted it. And if it cost $40, I would have bought it for $40.
That doesn't mean I don't LIKE saving money or have infinite money to spend on games, because I definitely don't. But I buy games for the content and the experience, not because they're cheap.
But maybe you and me are an uncommon ideal.
Well, the idea is that people stop and read posts with pictures in them. For a long post, it seemed beneficial to attract attention. So, not sure what your suggesting. It got your attention, didn't it?
That's exactly how I feel. If I see a game in the new releases, it looks interesting to me and on top of that offers a pricetag of 10 bucks, I'll bite (recent example: Niko). Otherwise I'll just put it on my wishlist and wait for a sale.
CheesecakeRecipe
Stormy Grey
I'm unsure of the right path to take, myself. As a consumer, my spending habits were limited and I had to take the path which would net me the absolute most for my money. Valve shutting down the TF2 Key trading has put a huge halt on my Steam purchases, but at the same time, losing income also helped put a clamp on that as well. Still, I'd be more than happy to drop $5-$10 on a game even when in total pinch mode. Games being priced higher has put a stopper on my acquisitions.
On the other hand, Steam Refunds should easily allow people to evaluate a title with little risk. If you don't enjoy yourself, you're more than welcome to get your money back. Some people may (and have!) taken the plunge on games they were unsure about and found themselves happier with the purchase than they would have thought just by looking at screenshots and videos.
There's certainly an easier barrier of entry for consumers at lower prices, but does this equal more money overall in the long run? Or just simply higher market saturation? I don't fully blame devs for feeling confident enough in their product to push for a $15-$20 price tier, even if I have to personally sit out until it becomes cheaper.
On the other hand, Steam Refunds should easily allow people to evaluate a title with little risk. If you don't enjoy yourself, you're more than welcome to get your money back. Some people may (and have!) taken the plunge on games they were unsure about and found themselves happier with the purchase than they would have thought just by looking at screenshots and videos.
There's certainly an easier barrier of entry for consumers at lower prices, but does this equal more money overall in the long run? Or just simply higher market saturation? I don't fully blame devs for feeling confident enough in their product to push for a $15-$20 price tier, even if I have to personally sit out until it becomes cheaper.
theechrisfox
Member
I think major studio games should be cheaper since they usually have more reused assets and less QA than most indie games I have played over the past years.
Zeboyd games have never been expensive. They are usually on the cheaper end of the spectrum.
A lot of the games you're referring to aren't really indie in the same sense as they were five or so years ago though. We're essentially selling mid-tier products as digital only games.
Like here are the sales of a few "indie" games that haven't went on a meaningful sale yet as according to SteamSpy:
ARK - $30: Owners: 1,201,477 ± 25,619
DayZ - $30: Owners: 3,317,659 ± 42,389
Rocket League - $20: 482,030 ± 16,250 (this was even free on PS+ from the day it came out)
Rust - $20: Owners: 2,740,807 ± 38,573
Games like Space Engineers (Owners: 1,340,906 ± 27,057) with only having gone down to half price from what was a high starting price of $25.
Clearly not every game should cost a lot of money, but since the types of products being made heavily vary in team size and development length, we're going to see the pricing follow that.
Like here are the sales of a few "indie" games that haven't went on a meaningful sale yet as according to SteamSpy:
ARK - $30: Owners: 1,201,477 ± 25,619
DayZ - $30: Owners: 3,317,659 ± 42,389
Rocket League - $20: 482,030 ± 16,250 (this was even free on PS+ from the day it came out)
Rust - $20: Owners: 2,740,807 ± 38,573
Games like Space Engineers (Owners: 1,340,906 ± 27,057) with only having gone down to half price from what was a high starting price of $25.
Clearly not every game should cost a lot of money, but since the types of products being made heavily vary in team size and development length, we're going to see the pricing follow that.
I really think some games are sold too cheaply initially.
One of the best (worst) examples I know of is Ghostlight pricing Elminage Gothic, a huge dungeon crawler, at $10 initially.
What this means is that you are missing out on money from people who would have bought the game at a higher price, you are missing out on the opportunity to offer a significant preorder discount which drives early sales, and you are missing out on the option to show off higher percentage values during sales and still make a healthy per-unit profit.
I guess you brought all these arguments up in the OP, but I really do believe they have merit. I'm certainly not saying that all games should be $50, but if you have a quality product with a lot of content and price it at less than $20 initially you are almost certainly leaving money on the table.
One of the best (worst) examples I know of is Ghostlight pricing Elminage Gothic, a huge dungeon crawler, at $10 initially.
What this means is that you are missing out on money from people who would have bought the game at a higher price, you are missing out on the opportunity to offer a significant preorder discount which drives early sales, and you are missing out on the option to show off higher percentage values during sales and still make a healthy per-unit profit.
I guess you brought all these arguments up in the OP, but I really do believe they have merit. I'm certainly not saying that all games should be $50, but if you have a quality product with a lot of content and price it at less than $20 initially you are almost certainly leaving money on the table.
Warm Machine
Member
I actually don't agree. Take a game like Geometry Wars 2. I've pulled probably 200 hours out of that game and it was $10 ? when it came out.
It is the sort of game I'd pay $100 for had I known how much I would have gotten out of it.
On the flip side is GTA V, Skyrim, Just Cause 2, or any other massive world games worth $120 because they offer FAR more game and world and interactivity that most games do at equivalent price?
Indie games are now big business. The reason why Shovel Knight can do what they did is simply due to awareness. It is carefully and brilliantly constructed media and fan support that surrounds a game like that which elevates its status and allows it to get away with a higher price. That exact same game coming out of nowhere one day made by people no one knows about would have been a sales flop. Marketing is still a huge part of the equation.
ViolentP
Member
Thank you. The immediate assumption that content = more is a big reason why these sorts of discussions need to come up to begin with.
See above.
I agree but I also take production values into account. Assassin's Creed games have a ton of content but it's mostly repetitive. The production values make up for it and are a big reason why I continue to play those games. On the other hand, Minecraft looks like crap but a lot of people pay a high price for it because of the endless content.
Personally, I always wait for sales or PS+ for indie games. However, I think that a game like Journey could definitely be sold for $20 because of the incredible production values (and artistry), even with its lack of content.
The highest acceptable price for an indie game is $25. I would never buy an indie game that is $30 or higher unless it is like a AAA retail game (something like Divinity: Original Sin).
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Thank you. With our new game, I think the quality is drastically higher than our past games and it's longer as well (estimating around 20 hours). It will be in the $10-$15 range whereas our past games were in the $1-$5 range. But to use your own example, if we priced our game at $40, who would buy it? Only diehard fans. If we price it at $10-$15 and the game is good and we get the word out, who will buy it? Hopefully, a lot of people.
So yes, a low price isn't going to convince somebody that a game they don't want to play is worth buying. But a low price may convince somebody that a game they want to play is worth buying.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Just seems like it would've been way more efficient to just.... y'know..... type that 1 sentence and include it in your post.
Prime crotch
Banned
That game needs a price cut, gives me shivers to think i got that on psp yeeeesh
Finale Fireworker
Member
You're not wrong. But that's just more text for people to not read. At least people look at pictures, which means they would get the core of my post and still be able to skip all the text.
I am a calculated madman. Please do not cyber-bully me anymore because I cry very easily on the web.
Video games and capitalism go hand in hand.
He is speaking about maximizing your sales potential, not about pricing outside of people's ability. Roberts post is mostly about psychological factors, not really economic factors.
As an indie developer you would know best.
I'm sure Sony/MS/Nintendo/Steam have sufficient data to indicate what the market price ought to be. Ultimately, the price of a product is whatever the market can bear. IMO, there is no reason why a game like No Man Sky should not retail for $60.
I'm sure Sony/MS/Nintendo/Steam have sufficient data to indicate what the market price ought to be. Ultimately, the price of a product is whatever the market can bear. IMO, there is no reason why a game like No Man Sky should not retail for $60.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Every dev believes their content is of good quality. How does that criterion help them set a price? How would anyone go about assessing quality and assigning a price? At least length of content is fairly objective (though still a terrible metric for pricing).
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
3 of those games are in one of the most popular genres on Steam these days and they have higher production values than most games.
Rocket League is an interesting case that I think supports my case. I'd argue that the reason why it's managed to sell so much on Steam at $20 is because the game got so much positive buzz from being on PS+. That positive buzz led to more and higher scoring reviews from the media, from youtubers, and from gamers in general. Goodness knows that the developers' previous car soccer game wasn't huge.
The number reason to have a higher priced game is if you think your game is very niche and only diehard fans are going to want to buy it. I'd say a hardcore first-person perspective dungeon crawler with mediocre production values definitely qualifies.
I agree. No Man Sky has AAA buzz & AAA marketing (Sony is behind it in a big way) so I think they could do very well at $60.
KuroPyonyo
Banned
I don't think it matters all that much. If it's an amazing game which also happens to fall exactly in line with my niche preferences I have no problem spending 100+ bucks.
If it's just another lame platformer it could be free and I wouldn't want to touch it.
So it's more a question of quality vs how relevant it is to me then a question of raw quantity.
If it's just another lame platformer it could be free and I wouldn't want to touch it.
So it's more a question of quality vs how relevant it is to me then a question of raw quantity.
TheSlySoul
Member
$10 to $25 seems right for digital only games from non-major publishers.
My bigger issue is digital releases by major publishers getting same price as retail releases. Make it $30 to $40.
My bigger issue is digital releases by major publishers getting same price as retail releases. Make it $30 to $40.
Zxrophantom
Member
While i see your point games will start to cost more as more indies up the antes as it were when making these games. Sure it sounds great on paper a cheaper cost will bring in more people, but in a super competitive market where there are 100s of indie games getting lost in the crowd is very common. You can argue these indie games are becoming fully featured games that stand up to AAA , so why not ask for a more reasonable price point. Will we see devs bandwagon and try to up sell simple 7/10 dollar games for $20, sure but at the same time if we can get indie games that are just as good as AAA games it will be worth it. Also sales are very nice to indies and you can always wait when they are half off down the road.
Yeah but this game comes across as significantly larger in scope than the previous works.
The discussion often revolves around quantity because expecting pricing based on quality makes no sense, on multiple levels. Not only is quality incredibly subjective, developers can often find it hard to predict how the public will judge the quality of the game. See Naughty Dog's statement about thinking The Last of Us would be a failure. For this reason, expecting developers to lower the asking price of their game beneath what they think will make them the most money is doing them a disservice in terms of their business interests and in creative terms.
TylerDurden4321
Member
If I were an indie dev and more or less by accident my game would launch within 2-4 month distance of a steam summer sale, I'd launch at a really high price too and then offer a BIG discount at the summer sale lile 20$ day1 and 7$ in the steam summer sale.
If just I missed the steam summer sale with my launch, I'd start at 13$ probably.
(just examples, of course it would all have to be relative to the amount of content and development cost. Also MP-only games, should always start cheap as dirt, because if nobody plays them, even the few who bought the high-priced game won't play it for long and the game will get bad reviews for "mp is basically dead" from later newcomers)
If just I missed the steam summer sale with my launch, I'd start at 13$ probably.
(just examples, of course it would all have to be relative to the amount of content and development cost. Also MP-only games, should always start cheap as dirt, because if nobody plays them, even the few who bought the high-priced game won't play it for long and the game will get bad reviews for "mp is basically dead" from later newcomers)
They do, and give advice to small devs. One bit of advice I've heard, which robert disagrees with, that has been brought up already in this topic, is that you can price your game too low such that it's thought of as shovelware.
ViolentP
Member
Market research. This day in age, name recognition is becoming a commodity worth investing in. Sometimes more than an immediate RoI. Aside from developing a great game, a developer needs to consider marketing tactic.
Well I doubt it'll be the $1 or so that breath of death was, but I would put money down on the game being relatively "cheap."
ViolentP
Member
I speak as a consumer, not a developer. You know what justifies a price for me? The quality of the title. Should developers use their perceived quality as a metric for setting price? Probably not. But you know what is a worse idea? Setting a static price under a much broader umbrella such as "indie".
slavesnyder
Member
Depends on the game.
Indie is a way of producing, but no indication for quality, content or size.
Shower with your dad is indie, no man's sky, too. But there is a difference nevertheless.
If something is too expensive it will not be bought. Normally.
Indie is a way of producing, but no indication for quality, content or size.
Shower with your dad is indie, no man's sky, too. But there is a difference nevertheless.
If something is too expensive it will not be bought. Normally.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
This is true. Selling 200,000 copies at $10 and selling 100,000 copies at $20 may get you the same gross at the time, but with the 200,000 copies example, that's twice as many chances to gain fans for your game and your company which can pay off with future releases.
Agreed why would I pay a third of a full AAA game to a developer I don't know, or for a game that's only 5 hours in length. I agree with 1st post as well if your game is only good for one play-through then you might need to re-evaluate your pricing.
ViolentP
Member
Indie games have the benefit of greater accessibility that many high budgets simply do not have. Use it as a weapon.
Not all indie games are equal, say Divinity Original Sin is a bigger game than many publisher-backed RPGs of the 90s, I don't see why it can't cost those 37. Being very successful at that price point allows the developer to remain independent and continue taking creative risks, while players are still happy with the value. Win/win for everyone.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'd rather spend 30 dollars on an indie game I'll sink countless hours into rather than 3 dollars into a cheap production. If indie teams can produce better content by getting more money, why would we ever want to limit that attitude?
I think the premise is a little bit out of touch with business. Better margins produce better growth. Bad margins produce dead companies.
I think the premise is a little bit out of touch with business. Better margins produce better growth. Bad margins produce dead companies.
I think that's a problem for some people - but I've never looked at a game and thought "that's too cheap."
I'll check a couple of reviews, read some Steam user impressions and make a judgement based off of that - I certainly wouldn't rule something out for costing £1.
I think the bolded is something to consider as well - we don't know the margins here. The Axiom Verge dev has probably committed years of his life to the game designing almost every aspect on his own - his margins might be different to people renting office space with a handful of people working on it - we don't know.
Crankshaft
Member
I miss the impulse buy market.
Prices keep trending upwards and out of my comfort zone.
When I got a 360 in 2007, I was buying 5 and ten dollar arcade games left and right.
Then the prices went to 15 and my wallet closed.
Then Microsoft came out with the Indie program and I was buying 1 dollar games all the time. Sometimes when I get bored I need that little game to spruce up a weekend. Now a days MS indies is pretty much dead.
Now indie digital games are going to 20 dollars. I don't know how it is for other people but I don't need indie games to be "bigger, more complete experiences". We have retail games that fit that bill. I need cheaper, smaller experiences to fill the void in between the professional releases. Maybe that's a horrible thing to say, sorry, but that's what I need as a gamer.
Prices keep trending upwards and out of my comfort zone.
When I got a 360 in 2007, I was buying 5 and ten dollar arcade games left and right.
Then the prices went to 15 and my wallet closed.
Then Microsoft came out with the Indie program and I was buying 1 dollar games all the time. Sometimes when I get bored I need that little game to spruce up a weekend. Now a days MS indies is pretty much dead.
Now indie digital games are going to 20 dollars. I don't know how it is for other people but I don't need indie games to be "bigger, more complete experiences". We have retail games that fit that bill. I need cheaper, smaller experiences to fill the void in between the professional releases. Maybe that's a horrible thing to say, sorry, but that's what I need as a gamer.
AHA-Lambda
Member
I do not agree, given the rising prominence of indies over the past couple years has allowed a resurgence of the B tier budgeted title, which wouldn't be possible without the rising associated prices.