Sniffynose
Member
I'm being triggered!
Lol but ya we badly need more info because this stuff will make or break it =(
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Inside Playstation 4 Pro: How sony made the first 4k games console
- Thread starter PackAPunchedMick
- Start date
I'm being triggered!
Lol but ya we badly need more info because this stuff will make or break it =(
AbandonedTrolley
Member
I can't imagine it will checkerboard upscale and then downscale, chances are it will downscale from its internal render resolution.
Rise Of The Tomb Raider??
yeah, like i said, old games or non demanding indies, when they shout "4K" from the rooftops it sounds they should put a big asterisk before people start to expect big modern AAA titles at 4K
Always-honest
Banned
Oh i think it will be fine. But i just want to know more about it and be sure ;P.
Anyway, allready preordered and i can't fucking wait. Now i'm constantly googling anything Pro related. Always fun, new hardware. Be it Switch, Scorpio or Pro
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Not native 4k.
mercenar1e
Member
not even at the lowest graphical settings?
Checkerboard rendering for 4K televisions, downsampling for 1080p TV's, that is in addition to two other 1080p dedicated modes
They are not using the lowest graphical settings, so that doesn't mean anything. The lowest graphics settings on PC are more akin to the 360 release, something Pro will not hit regardless of the settings it uses in this mode.
I dont' deny it, but have you looked at PES2017 requirements? that thing can run on 6+ years old hardware with ease
ethomaz
Banned
C'mon there are at least 3 AAA new games on the list.
More games will come.
Not on PS4 Pro and it is not the lowest setthing.
Always-honest
Banned
Stop. They're not aiming for the lowest graphical settings.
mercenar1e
Member
just curious what the resolution and settings the team is hoping to achieve.
You mean PC? The PC version is not comparable to the PS4/ One-Version and is more in line with the PS3-Version.
No it's just shitpoisting. Having to put asterisks confirms this. Yes a 970 or any GPU able to run 4K with "individual preferred" settings can be a "4K" card. It's all about how much an individual wants to compromise/balance to meet their target performance because there wouldn't ever be a card that will do high/ultra + 4K + 60fps, etc at every game because game demands are every increasing.
AbandonedTrolley
Member
Exactly, the PC version is not the same version on current gen consoles, it's far behind, so pushing that to 4K is pretty impressive.
ethomaz
Banned
You know PC version is not based in XB1/PS4/Pro version... it is based in PS360 version.
You need to be more stealthy.
Always-honest
Banned
Not sure but not native 4K.
Eurogamer said:
Eurogamer said:
So it looks great but softer than on PC in real 4K.
really? did not know this, well check out the NBA 2K17 system requirements then, they are also pretty low
Backfoggen
Banned
Unfortunately yes. Recommended it to a friend since I really like the PS4 version and after seeing it I felt quilty^^
That is do to the frametime delay which is generally a bug they never bothered to go back and fix. I think pro might avoid it.
ethomaz
Banned
The list can be incomplete/inaccurate... it is just a example and not mine
I just wanted to show him there are a good amount of native 4k games for Pro with even AAA cases.
You are trying too hard.
Horsemama1956
Member
The fact that it's not actually 4K helps.
Maedre
Banned
No it not that simple, but it will help to boost stuff.
ethomaz
Banned
It is not that simple and most GPUs can't do that outside the enterprise or mobile segment.
The theoretical raw power boosts from 4.2TFs to 8.4TFs because Pro's GPU will get a new FP16 units redesigned to AMD's Vega that will run FP16 2x faster than FP32... so for each FP32 instruction the hardware can process 2x FP16 instructions.
That is at max theoretical.
Games are not that simple... you have places you can't use FP16... sometimes you don't have 2 instructions to run instead to one FP32... so at the end you are looking at a boost in performance nowhere near the 2x showed by the theoretical raw power.
You loose range and accuracy with FP16 too:
Pi =
3.141592741012 (FP16)
3.1415927410125732421875 (FP32)
It is not bad for Pi but for numbers like that:
0.0000000000000000000003
0.000000000000000000003
0.00000000000000000003
0.0000000000000000003
0.000000000000000003
0.00000000000000003
0.0000000000000003
0.000000000000003
0.00000000000003
0.0000000000003
=
0 (it will be all equal to 0 in FP16 and that will break your graphic math).
PS. I can be wrong on the decimal numbers for FP16/FP32... it is just an example.
What's not actually 4K?
Actually it is that simple it can do up to 8.4 trillion 16-bit floating point operations per second or 4.2 trillion 32-bit floating point operations per second.
The list can be incomplete/inaccurate... it is just a example and not mine
I just wanted to show him there are a good amount of native 4k games for Pro with even AAA cases.
You are trying too hard.
well i didn't brought up 4k display output capability as a validating argument XD, so no, i don't think i am
ethomaz
Banned
Yeap you are and a lot because what define native 4k it is the game being rendered at 4k.
You want put things where there is none.
lol what "it is not 4k if not using 45x MSAA"... that is what you are trying to do here.
Not what i'm saying, i'm saying that it won't hit 4K in mainstream big titles, checkerdboard is not 4K, it's an impressive result i agree, but i think they need to adjust their marketing.
Caipirinha
Member
I was really hoping for a big dump of info on patches for notable games like Bloodborne and Rocket League etc. by this point.
Considering it's so easy I was expecting even fairly minor PSN games to be getting some nominal Pro support.
Quite disappointed to see next to no detail from anyone and next to no new announcements.
Considering it's so easy I was expecting even fairly minor PSN games to be getting some nominal Pro support.
Quite disappointed to see next to no detail from anyone and next to no new announcements.
i've seen no marketing for the device yet.
Are you interested in it btw? because ps4 is the worst console purchase you made if i am not mistaken
ethomaz
Banned
You are have two exemple in mainstream title hitting 4k.
Of course nobody expect it to hit 4k in all games lol.
Sony is being clean about how they will reach 4k.
The FP16 thing is a continuation of Cerny's drive to use asynch compute, to make processing as efficient as it can be to continually try and get more out of the box. Remember the slides about the unused processing capacity that asynch could fill? Same principle.
It has been said there are two types of engineer - innovators/forgers and hackers/homers. The former build the brightest new thing then move on quickly. The latter endlessly look for ways to get more from existing technology, to use it in innovative ways not envisioned by the forgers.
Cerny is very clearly in the latter camp.
It has been said there are two types of engineer - innovators/forgers and hackers/homers. The former build the brightest new thing then move on quickly. The latter endlessly look for ways to get more from existing technology, to use it in innovative ways not envisioned by the forgers.
Cerny is very clearly in the latter camp.
I want to get this just for PSVR improvements, but I don't want to use the 1tb HDD it comes with (I've a 2tb in my PS4 now which is filling up). Is there a decent 2TB HDD I can buy now which I can swap with the 1TB on launch day? Is it a simple matter of remove the stock HDD, pop in the new one and off you go?
BTW, I'm not thinking about SSD OR SSHD as I can't afford that as well as the Pro!
BTW, I'm not thinking about SSD OR SSHD as I can't afford that as well as the Pro!
Wishmaster92
Member
Yeah i would think that's how it's gonna go. Both of these games look so clean when you downscale the 4k image to 1080p. It's not even the proper method (since they're even jpegs originally) and yet it looks amazing.
Looks like when i go into the pc screenshot thread and everything is supersampled.
We'll see more closer to release, but even then, i'd only expect pro patches generally from AA and AAA titles, many indie games would not really see much benefit depending on their simplicity
Gradly
Member
I was really under the impression that with this new gen (PS4, XB1) which is more like a PC architecture, games will be forward compatible and scalable without a hassle. Now games must be explicitly be patched for PS4 Pro which is a mid-gen minor refresh.
So when PS5 comes in the future, in this scenario we need a patch again to play for example Uncharted 4. but what about the games that never got patched for PS4 Pro at all? Will Sony keep a single dedicated GPU to play PS4 base mode games? additional GPU to mimic PS4 Pro mode? and additional GPU for PS5 mode? I know its funny to think this way but could this be the case?
So when PS5 comes in the future, in this scenario we need a patch again to play for example Uncharted 4. but what about the games that never got patched for PS4 Pro at all? Will Sony keep a single dedicated GPU to play PS4 base mode games? additional GPU to mimic PS4 Pro mode? and additional GPU for PS5 mode? I know its funny to think this way but could this be the case?
Always-honest
Banned
That's assuming the PS5 will be backwards compatible.
If it does. It will just be the games as they were. It's not EXACTLY like PC i think.
I am no expert, but i guess if we get BC it will be games playing as originally designed, at least most of them, especially pre PS4pro. Just like Wii could play GC games. It would probablybe like that despite using x86 architecture, games are still coded to the 'metal' instead of using and abstract layer.
I guess sony is aware of that, it could be a shitstorm if they fail, just see the storm in a glass of water that some have made of this non issue that non patched games won't benefit from extra processing power. I guess sticking to x86 will help and some parts of current ps4 SOC will be emulated
ethomaz
Banned
1800p downsampled to 1080p is bad?
I don't believe it will use the checkerboard resolution but the native one.
visiblemode
Member
Well firstly, no, this gen is not like PC. That's a very good thing for console games. The benefit of x86 for consoles was never hands-off bc. It was easier cross platform development, a unification of systems and hardware "language" that could be build upon (as opposed to previous gens where new ideas had to be translated to various base platforms.)
Look at UC4 to see the benefits of this. This is the kind of accomplishment that can be acheived with intense optimization. That's what console development is, and why consoles "punch above their weight."
The more highly optimized software is, the more it benefits from tweaking when hw variables shift. Thus the patches to access Pro-power.
Also worth noting, this is more than a minor refresh. Used properly the Pro is potentially a very impressive piece of hw, all the more reason they want devs to tap the feature set rather than let the raw power bump up framerates/cause bugs. That would be a bad first impression for consumers.
Crazymoogle
Member
As Cerny said in the article, the focus was to make sure everything existing worked. I mean, what's the point of a "Pro" PS4 if only 80% of the games function? (Hell, 80% sounds like a "good" number but the problem is making sure it's the "right" 80%. If it's 95% but Witcher 3 and GTAV don't work, obviously there's a problem.)
Backwards Compatibility seems very likely with PS5, but that's where the number could be 75% or 95% or some other non-ideal number. Once you make bigger changes to the hardware spec, some games are just flat out not going to work. We saw it with PS2 and we saw it with PS3 - most games are okay with small changes, but the more of them there are, the more things break, the more you need special mode switches and so on.
I agree, i think sony made the right desicion. Developers can 'patch' their games to unlock pro mode if they feel the game won't crash and won't have bugs and benefit from extra power without tweaking the game. Others may change a few things to improve it a lot isntead of a few frames here or there.
This is a console, everything just needs to work
dr_rus
Member
Well, it's not really good as it's a decimal downsampling which will produce stair case artifacting without a good blur filter - at which point it may turn out that said blur filter alone would be just as good.
If I was to use PS4Pro's h/w for downsampling to 1080p I'd render in 1920x2160 and downsample from that in a 1x2 fashion. That would at least give a nice integer scaling with two clear subsamples per screen pixel.
But I'm betting that Sony will just downscale the actual reconstructed 4K output to 1080p and call that downsampling instead. Meaning that PS4Pro will likely show reconstruction artifacts in 1080p as well as in 4K.
I haven't said anything, yet.
You mean it will render @ 1800p and not checker board? That would be interesting.
Checkerboard rendering is only for reprojection to a 4K display AFAIK. We have no actual proof that the final resolve is what is downsampled at 1080p.