Loxus
Member
Then why haven't we seen a game like R&C on your beloved PC yet.
Let the games do the talking.
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Inside Unreal: In-depth look at PS5's Lumen in the land Of Nanite demo(only 6.14gb of geometry) and Deep dive into Nanite
- Thread starter Lethal01
- Start date
- Status
Let the games do the talking.
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
PC has lots of games like Ratchet
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Oh I completely stopped responding to him. He doesn't understand these things. And instead of trying to understand, ask questions, engage in civilized discussions, he rolls up with his armchair developer mindset, only to be completely wrong in every single aspect.That's not how it works. If you actually want to have an objective and independent verifiable comparison then you use a game where we have a previous baseline. You can't just use one arbitrary game because every game is different (game size, tech, etc). Heck 2k loads 1-2 seconds. But what matters is how much it improved versus the baseline. What was the load time before and then afterwards.
Spiderman PS4 Pro vs PS5 (Loading saved game)
26.0 seconds | 2.14 seconds (12x improvement)
Avengers Next Gen Upgrade PS4 Pro vs PS5 (Loading saved game)
1m2.11seconds | 4.32 seconds (14x improvement)
Way more than 90% improvement.
So the game with the best load times improvement multiplier is NOT spiderman Its The Avengers. Guess what XSX loads it in 5 second so 1 second slower than PS5.
Not only that but spiderman on PS4 Pro was 45 GB and 50 GB on PS5.
While Avengers was 74 GB on PS5.
Avengers clearly has alot that its loading in than Spiderman and loads it faster.
XSX loads it in 6.36 secs, so 2 seconds slower. That's without using none of that kraken none-sense.
I thinkDonJuanSchlong should stop responding to you until you explain how Unreal engine engineers are lying about unloading the light world and loading the dark world in 4 seconds.
You can download project and open it up and see for yourself. You can even disable the white screen so you can see it loading the darkworld and then doing garbage collection at the end to unload the light world.
Sad part is, you ask them a question, and you get no response to it. Only a chance of goalposts, rinse and repeat. It's as if
geordiemp
has all of them in a discord server, telling them what to say in response to each poster here. And if they are getting it from him, it's already wrong information.
Brofist
Member
Then I'd expect at least 1,000,000 people can play games that look better than PS5. But hey your games run better than grandmas old Dell from 10 years ago, you should be very proud.
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staticshock
Member
Loxus
Member
The PS5 can get data from storage straight to graphics memory faster that any gaming PC on the market @ up to 22GB/s.
It isn't all about the speed of the SSD.
Even storing data in system ram is not as fast because it a bottleneck getting data from system ram to graphics memory.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Faster than any gaming PC?! So your telling me ps5 SSD->VRAM is faster than DDR3 ram? Even DDR4 RAM?! You got any proof of that?
Disclaimer: please don't respond unless you have factual evidence. And don't try to change the subject or move the goal posts.
Loxus
Member
Show me.
martino
Member
Maybe because sony paid them to make a game to sell this kind of feature and most creative on their own doesn't care about it.
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Low Moral Fibre
Member
At risk of making this even more off topic (if that is possible) I'm on to the last level now and I think that Ratchet would be equally as good with zero rifts - they add nothing to the game IMO and are more like something you would put in a tech demo like this Unreal Engine stuff. You could easily design the game without the instant world swapping on the mine and underwater levels since the swapping isn't really utilized for anything more than looking cool - it's not fundamental to the game design like the portal gun in Portal. The other rifts would work on any SSD or even a HDD if you are willing to wait for a load.
I could see the SSD being used to have some awesome parallel world gameplay where you are constantly swapping at will between worlds to get an advantage or to escape something but the only levels that really use the rifts in Ratchet are very linear so you only ever change worlds when the developer wants you to.
I know just having a SSD is a huge improvement on last gen but I don't see how non sci-fi games would utilize all that speed. You're not exactly going to be warping around in TLOU3 or Gran Turismo. I guess time will tell.
I could see the SSD being used to have some awesome parallel world gameplay where you are constantly swapping at will between worlds to get an advantage or to escape something but the only levels that really use the rifts in Ratchet are very linear so you only ever change worlds when the developer wants you to.
I know just having a SSD is a huge improvement on last gen but I don't see how non sci-fi games would utilize all that speed. You're not exactly going to be warping around in TLOU3 or Gran Turismo. I guess time will tell.
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Vognerful
Member
If you are comparing Raytracing performance, Then I think an RTX 2060 super and above is enough to match PS5 & XSX performance and exceed it, not to mention DLSS support. The narrative that PS5 or XSX outperformed RTX2080 was only in Assassin Creed Valhalla, a game that showed AMD cards outperforming Nvidia. But when it comes to RT, They where never close (as AMD RT performance is still behind Nvidia)
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Exactly! Sometimes when you swap through 2 worlds in a matter of 30 seconds, what's the point? Your on rails and can't interact with the 2nd world, and get sent into the 3rd world... Like wtf? Why?
Someone yesterday was implying no other games can do this, and my response was that nobody wants that. Imagine COD, TLOU2, Half Life Alyx, Forza, Stalker, Bugsnax, Zelda all jumped on the gimmick train, and implemented the same kind of portals R&C has, with a show of hands, who the fuck would want that?
They could have done more with game design than rely on something that doesn't even really change the gameplay. Like you said, the game could have done without it, and it wouldn't be game changing.
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Vognerful
Member
I think the issue is that you will hit a wall when designing a game that uses this mechanism. You still have to make it in a way not to break the "game", you know? IT is hard for me to explain but imagine playing resident evil 3 remake and the mod that let's go anywhere is on. You would break the shit out of the game logic.
maybe this is not the best example but I think for the game structure, you cannot leave such freedom to the player.
Loxus
Member
Do you realize the CPU or the GPU still has to get the data from system ram right?
How fast the CPU or GPU can fetch the data will become a bottleneck.
The PS5 has dedicated hardware for fetching data that's faster than the CPU.
Also, the PS5 SSD is fast enough to at as ram.
Nividia and Microsoft is now gearing up to release that tech with RTX IO. Most likely with dedicated hardware like RT cores. Until then, you should stop letting being a fanboy blind your understanding.
JeloSWE
Member
I think just loading anything in general is the advantage. When I was jumping to another location in Horizon ZD it was the most panful thing ever. So I expect HFW to be a breeze of around 1-2 sec. Also when dying in Returnal, the time it takes to start a new run is nearly instant. It could also be used to increase the max flight speed in open world games and there are probably advantages/innovations we haven't yet seen.
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Balducci30
Member
I don’t have a good pc I have a ps5 what do you mean “you guys”?
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Did you see the one where he tried matching PS5 with a $5000 dollar build?
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
No platformers that look remotely close in visuals.
We won't see any time soon either.
Pedro Motta
Member
Could you name a few? I want to play more games like this.
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Just search best 3rd person action shooter with shitty platforming on PC.
Pedro Motta
Member
Nah man, I'm lazy like you, give me some names.
Werewolfgrandma
Banned
Sunset overdrive.
Although I've not played the new Ratchet, sunset is to me way better then any of the older ratchets.
Md Ray
Member
Huh? I'm aware of that. I used Spider-Man as an e.g. because R&C uses the same engine as the discussion I was in from the beginning was about R&C and its fast world switching and whether it was possible on PC at the same speeds as PS5 without RTX IO, DirectStorage on an average gaming PC.
The answer is a big fat NO simply because a lot of what R&C is doing in terms of jumping from one world to another with such an incredible level of detail and sheer density is achieved by basically eliminating load times through fully switching to HW decompression from software (i.e. no CPU involved) and by taking full advantage of the SSD's bandwidth. Basically what DirectStorage and RTX IO aim to bring in the PC space.
IG's senior engine programmer:
DirectStorage agenda: "eliminate load times" (from here)
Asking the real questions:
"why not taking advantage of the full IO bandwidth"
"how do we get to the <1 second load time"
RTX IO aims to bring the important HW component for decompression, while DS brings the software component basically to open doors for games like R&C to be possible on PC.
Without DirectStorage, no NVMe drives on PC are being used to their full potential. This is a fact. As a result, you don't see load time reductions from double-digit 20+ seconds to single 1-2 seconds yet or load-time reductions in the region of -90% or more than -90% on PC when switching from HDD > NVMe consistently like the PS5 does due to its DirectStorage equivalent API and HW decompression and dev efforts, ofc.
R&C's world switching is basically a level loading that more or less takes 1-2 seconds (just like the 2 sec load time in Spider-Man Remastered on PS5) due to the combination of SSD + HW decompression, etc. if this were to be done on PS4 (ofc, without HW decompression w/HDD) it would have roughly taken half a minute or probably even more to load every time Ratchet went through a portal (just like the Spider-Man's near 30 second load time on PS4).
Go back and read the posts from #950. I also jumped into the discussion because
DonJuanSchlong
got triggered because I was leaving laughing emojis at his posts and wanted me to add something. 
Now that I jumped into the discussion and asked him this:
He wouldn't respond to me since.
Here's another thing for you. The key to R&C's fast world switching is basically in bringing down load times dramatically from double digits to single digit.
Spider-Man which uses the same engine as R&C:
This is proof that R&C's world switching in 2 or so seconds would have taken almost 30 seconds on an HDD.
Now, I'd like you to show me a game on PC taking roughly 20-25 seconds with an HDD to load a save game and then taking 2 seconds when switched to an NVMe, in other words, I want you to show me an improvement of over -90% reduction in load time when switching from HDD to NVMe in a PC game.
If you can do that, and this is a challenge. If you can do that, then I'm wrong and it's proof that R&C's fast world switching can be done without RTX IO/DirectStorage, NVMe on PC.
I'll wait.
It's actually Final Fantasy 7 now. I've mentioned this in post #1,004 too in this very thread. Weird, you didn't see it. This game here brings a massive -97% reduction in load time (31x improvement), this is practically eliminating the loading screen (remember Microsoft's agenda for DirectStorage?). This is the kind of improvement PC doesn't have right now which DirectStorage is looking to bring. Without DS you won't see improvements like you see in the below screenshot and it is proof that R&C instant level loading won't be possible on avg gaming PCs without technologies like these. Hard pill to swallow, I know.
As for the valley of the ancient stuff...
Here's HDD vs NVMe difference which proves my point. Hardly a -70% reduction, far from over -90% reduction that PS5 consistently sees. With 14.5 seconds taking to load on an HDD, it should've taken less than 2 seconds to load, in theory.
4 seconds is nothing and I agree, but as the scene complexity increases, so will the HDD load time, so will the NVMe load time without DirectStorage. And we're again far from answering the question: "how do we get to the <1 second load time North Star", the DS engineer posed above.
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Md Ray
Member
You stopped responding to me because you know I'm right. PC load time reductions from HDD to NVMe aren't there where consoles are at the moment, there's inefficiency in hardware utilization and consoles are far ahead, in comparison, especially PS5 (just look at Final Fantasy 7 comparison above).
Microsoft flat-out agrees that PCs aren't there yet and so does NVIDIA.
So, by disagreeing with me you're actually disagreeing with MS and NVIDIA and calling them wrong and you deem RTX IO and DirectStorage useless because...
"but..but...memory!!"
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Even when they catch up the software will still be limited by older hardware.
The market for this type of tech is way to small so developers will always program for the bigger weaker spec majority.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
You're deluded.
Kenpachii
Member
Not my fault that you don't understand.
Because as you can see, it literally says "COMPRESSED DATA NEEDED", as per NVIDIA's own slides. Games files are compressed data, you can't remove something that's NEEDED. That's not how it works.
WAAYYYYYYY to long, can't be arsed to cut it, don't want to read i can understand will put it in a spoiler.
They are talking about compressed data in this solution in order to push 7gbps from the SSD > GPU memory and what taxation is placed on the CPU when compression happens. Obviously it needs compression if u do this.
I am talking about system ram memory > GPU memory without compressed data or without cpu compression going on. PC could load and offload data into the ram constantly and offload it to the v-ram constantly without compression that the PS5 uses which lowers the need for fast SSD access entirely. That's what we are talking about.
Here are some screenshots for you to maybe start to understand how the world functions in PC land. Because atm u see information but can't place it at all.
This is what's going to happen with the next windows update, because it allows for compression to start being a thing at higher speeds. If nvidia and AMD is developing there own compression software / hardware like nvenc on there gpu's. Which is happening as we know with nvidia, amd probably also not sure what they are going to do tho.
And this is what's currently happening:
Now again what happens if you remove the decompression entirely and just drop raw data? and just let the SSD write data at 0,5gbps? to the system ram all day every day? Then when the GPU needs it, it drops it in the GPU and swaps the data from that v-ram to ram if needed later or ditch it entirely.
This is why PS5 tech demo could require 5gbps at times to load data in and out, with PC u barely see SSD activitiy because it has ram. ( i don't think even sony's platform used the SSD much at the end tho ).
The SSD is able to constantly preload data into the ram non stop. What nviida is trying to do however, is exclude the memory entirely and go straight from the SSD ala what sony does so they can drop the memory for this entirely, but also makes it so compression will be moved entirely from CPU to GPU something i already stated day one which also improves the older solution which microsoft is talking about massively.
This is why i stated back in the day, when cerny / linus and every other tech grifter that kraken = 9 zen 2 cores, is yes factually true. but completely misleading to look at it that way. Because the reality is, PC will never decompress data through its CPU because that's where that RTX dia from nvidia comes in which explains it perfectly.
It's as misleading as saying that the switch has 100 zen 2 cpu cores to render the visuals in botw, because that's just how fast there GPU is. While techincally correct, its completely pointless to even look at it this way.
And this in general is the misconception about PC and how it works and what sony does.
This is why i stated when sony demonstrated there box, sony went this road to emulate some serious shitty ram to cut budget.
Now let's look at the PS5 and R&C that u are so promoting.
R&C, we have no clue how much it accesses data on the SSD at what time and in what amounts. We have no clue if they cut a bit of memory away or even a cpu core away to preload data already before they actually start to jump through a portal.
I saw some people play the game, and there are portals that instantly load the next area, this is impossible with the SSD because of its latency. this means it does preload data already and stores and cuts it off from the game to load it into the memory.
This is the exact reason why a lot of people started to ask Tim Sweeney after the demonstration, how much the SSD was used and how much RAM would effect the transferrate for PC solutions. He was completely silent on this until he let some employee take the heat to reveal what is going on when the demo was out for PC and they could no longer run around it because people could see it instantly.
While PC gamers shitted on Tim for Lying "as linus would say" the reality is he never lied, he just stated the switch has 100 zen 2 cpu's. Technically correct but at the end misleading information. that's tim for you. Cerny does the same. But unlike time, cerny = sony so its to be expected for PR reasons.
And that's why i shit on tech youtubers like linus so much, because they honestly have no clue what the fuck is going on. They do the same as you, see a word or number copy past it and say see this is it. then get burned hard when they actually get informed by a non idiot that works for them like that fat dude at linus show, that knows how shit works and has to backtrack on it. But again pisses next towards it because he does the same shit AGAIN.
I saw some of his wan shows and frankly, its just laughable how that other guy sits next towards him and disagree's entirely but just doesn't say anything because he likes his job when linus just rages like a retard for 10 minutes talking nonense.
But then u get posts like this and use that material for there own delusional worlds they wanna live in.
Now lets get to the next point.
Why do we not see R&C games on PC?
Because console gaming started to go on a rampant expansion around the xbox area where microsoft wanted to get PC gamers on there console. Because they wanted windows in the living room and xbox was there to push it. While people where laughing about the xbox one and its TV aspect. This was very very much microsoft's original intent. That's why u got kinect etc. They want control over the living room.
Now that the living room is a lot less interesting and gaming itself explodes in populairity far beyond what movies will be ( market ) u see heavy investments again in game company's.
If u make a metro game, u will be contacted by sony or microsoft and they will want u under there embrella. If you make a metro game, why would u not focus on consoles? because that's where your market is.
Anybody that makes a R&C game for PC only, is simple killing its own product as it will barely ship copy's in comparison towards consoles, as the market is not there. That's why u got stuff like star citizen which makes sense to go for PC only because of its model it goes for. But even then with the next gen systems i would heavily consider consoles at this point and dumb it down if they intent to not go full next gen eve.
U see this over and over again. metro 2033 big juggernaut for PC visually, it was a success in the single player segment. LL sold whatever 2033 sold in its lifetime in a single week when it hitted consoles. They had no problem downgrading the visuals to keep things in line. The same goes for metro exodus. Even the metro devs stated we don't give a fuck about PC gamers anymore, u don't buy our product? we will cancel it for PC entirely with there next product.
Same goes for witcher 2, considered big juggernaut of a IP on PC, xbox spend money at the dev and a port was made even while it was piss poor versus the PC version. next version? multiplatform entirely. Same for cyberpunk. Why? the market is there. Even a game heavily praised on PC like witcher 3, probably still did half of it on consoles. They will make it work with it.
So the question is not about, can PC do it. The question is about why would they do it?
Then about the portals in R&C and rift openings, a concept that already has been a thing for a while but actual technology limitations holded it back. like in mordor or a post i made at the announcement of PS5 of something i wanna see is this.
Simple effective idea on how gameplay can change entirely based on being able to play in 2 worlds at the same time if not multiple worlds at the same time, witcher 3 kinda went into this, batman kinda went into this with simple solutions, but most of all medium went into this but in a different way.
The reason i wanted something like this = mordor.
R&C took this approach, but still very much is limited by what it does, specially when u realize u can switch instantly into another world and back into the same world.
The reason in the same post why i was negative about it, is because i know it will not happen, because devs will push all the memory into pretty graphics, while the only way to get there is to reserve large chunks of memory. If they do this the game visuals will look worse then a competitors product medium vs R&C and we will be stuck yet again with loading. Which ends up what u seewith R&C even while it does at points keep stuff in the memory.
So yea big kudo's for R&C team moving further, while something like horizon isn't impressive to me. just more of the same.
I could see with the PS5 pro, them including more memory to make loading in R&C for example completely instant and which could also open up new gameplay concepts.
I am talking about system ram memory > GPU memory without compressed data or without cpu compression going on. PC could load and offload data into the ram constantly and offload it to the v-ram constantly without compression that the PS5 uses which lowers the need for fast SSD access entirely. That's what we are talking about.
Here are some screenshots for you to maybe start to understand how the world functions in PC land. Because atm u see information but can't place it at all.
This is what's going to happen with the next windows update, because it allows for compression to start being a thing at higher speeds. If nvidia and AMD is developing there own compression software / hardware like nvenc on there gpu's. Which is happening as we know with nvidia, amd probably also not sure what they are going to do tho.
And this is what's currently happening:
Now again what happens if you remove the decompression entirely and just drop raw data? and just let the SSD write data at 0,5gbps? to the system ram all day every day? Then when the GPU needs it, it drops it in the GPU and swaps the data from that v-ram to ram if needed later or ditch it entirely.
This is why PS5 tech demo could require 5gbps at times to load data in and out, with PC u barely see SSD activitiy because it has ram. ( i don't think even sony's platform used the SSD much at the end tho ).
The SSD is able to constantly preload data into the ram non stop. What nviida is trying to do however, is exclude the memory entirely and go straight from the SSD ala what sony does so they can drop the memory for this entirely, but also makes it so compression will be moved entirely from CPU to GPU something i already stated day one which also improves the older solution which microsoft is talking about massively.
This is why i stated back in the day, when cerny / linus and every other tech grifter that kraken = 9 zen 2 cores, is yes factually true. but completely misleading to look at it that way. Because the reality is, PC will never decompress data through its CPU because that's where that RTX dia from nvidia comes in which explains it perfectly.
It's as misleading as saying that the switch has 100 zen 2 cpu cores to render the visuals in botw, because that's just how fast there GPU is. While techincally correct, its completely pointless to even look at it this way.
And this in general is the misconception about PC and how it works and what sony does.
This is why i stated when sony demonstrated there box, sony went this road to emulate some serious shitty ram to cut budget.
Now let's look at the PS5 and R&C that u are so promoting.
R&C, we have no clue how much it accesses data on the SSD at what time and in what amounts. We have no clue if they cut a bit of memory away or even a cpu core away to preload data already before they actually start to jump through a portal.
I saw some people play the game, and there are portals that instantly load the next area, this is impossible with the SSD because of its latency. this means it does preload data already and stores and cuts it off from the game to load it into the memory.
This is the exact reason why a lot of people started to ask Tim Sweeney after the demonstration, how much the SSD was used and how much RAM would effect the transferrate for PC solutions. He was completely silent on this until he let some employee take the heat to reveal what is going on when the demo was out for PC and they could no longer run around it because people could see it instantly.
While PC gamers shitted on Tim for Lying "as linus would say" the reality is he never lied, he just stated the switch has 100 zen 2 cpu's. Technically correct but at the end misleading information. that's tim for you. Cerny does the same. But unlike time, cerny = sony so its to be expected for PR reasons.
And that's why i shit on tech youtubers like linus so much, because they honestly have no clue what the fuck is going on. They do the same as you, see a word or number copy past it and say see this is it. then get burned hard when they actually get informed by a non idiot that works for them like that fat dude at linus show, that knows how shit works and has to backtrack on it. But again pisses next towards it because he does the same shit AGAIN.
I saw some of his wan shows and frankly, its just laughable how that other guy sits next towards him and disagree's entirely but just doesn't say anything because he likes his job when linus just rages like a retard for 10 minutes talking nonense.
But then u get posts like this and use that material for there own delusional worlds they wanna live in.
Now lets get to the next point.
Why do we not see R&C games on PC?
Because console gaming started to go on a rampant expansion around the xbox area where microsoft wanted to get PC gamers on there console. Because they wanted windows in the living room and xbox was there to push it. While people where laughing about the xbox one and its TV aspect. This was very very much microsoft's original intent. That's why u got kinect etc. They want control over the living room.
Now that the living room is a lot less interesting and gaming itself explodes in populairity far beyond what movies will be ( market ) u see heavy investments again in game company's.
If u make a metro game, u will be contacted by sony or microsoft and they will want u under there embrella. If you make a metro game, why would u not focus on consoles? because that's where your market is.
Anybody that makes a R&C game for PC only, is simple killing its own product as it will barely ship copy's in comparison towards consoles, as the market is not there. That's why u got stuff like star citizen which makes sense to go for PC only because of its model it goes for. But even then with the next gen systems i would heavily consider consoles at this point and dumb it down if they intent to not go full next gen eve.
U see this over and over again. metro 2033 big juggernaut for PC visually, it was a success in the single player segment. LL sold whatever 2033 sold in its lifetime in a single week when it hitted consoles. They had no problem downgrading the visuals to keep things in line. The same goes for metro exodus. Even the metro devs stated we don't give a fuck about PC gamers anymore, u don't buy our product? we will cancel it for PC entirely with there next product.
Same goes for witcher 2, considered big juggernaut of a IP on PC, xbox spend money at the dev and a port was made even while it was piss poor versus the PC version. next version? multiplatform entirely. Same for cyberpunk. Why? the market is there. Even a game heavily praised on PC like witcher 3, probably still did half of it on consoles. They will make it work with it.
So the question is not about, can PC do it. The question is about why would they do it?
Then about the portals in R&C and rift openings, a concept that already has been a thing for a while but actual technology limitations holded it back. like in mordor or a post i made at the announcement of PS5 of something i wanna see is this.
Simple effective idea on how gameplay can change entirely based on being able to play in 2 worlds at the same time if not multiple worlds at the same time, witcher 3 kinda went into this, batman kinda went into this with simple solutions, but most of all medium went into this but in a different way.
The reason i wanted something like this = mordor.
R&C took this approach, but still very much is limited by what it does, specially when u realize u can switch instantly into another world and back into the same world.
The reason in the same post why i was negative about it, is because i know it will not happen, because devs will push all the memory into pretty graphics, while the only way to get there is to reserve large chunks of memory. If they do this the game visuals will look worse then a competitors product medium vs R&C and we will be stuck yet again with loading. Which ends up what u seewith R&C even while it does at points keep stuff in the memory.
So yea big kudo's for R&C team moving further, while something like horizon isn't impressive to me. just more of the same.
I could see with the PS5 pro, them including more memory to make loading in R&C for example completely instant and which could also open up new gameplay concepts.
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So the entire game is one level? Each level would have to load. Once loaded into ram there would be no more loading. Is this that hard to understand. I mean the entire game takes 31GB. The minimum ram requirements would just be higher along with long loading between levels.What is this impractical bullshit?
At some point the RAM will get filled and hit its limitation when moving through the game world. You need to dump the previous data and load new level/data extremely fast. No PCs have infinite RAM. And you NEED fast loading to fill up 100s of GB of RAM (assuming you've installed 128GB of RAM.
Filling 128GB, in theory, using a 7GB/s drive would take nearly 20 seconds. At this point, you absolutely need RTX IO like hardware-based decompression unit to keep up when transferring data at such speeds (5-7GB/s) because the conventional CPU cannot and will not.
Come back to reality.
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Because it has to run on console and low end PCs. At least wait a few years and see what pc has then.
edit: name a single game on console and pc where the console version looks best.
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PaintTinJr
Member
I'm not sure if you've taken any interest in the topic of thread, but both Nanite, and the SW RT of lumen - which is the major advancement - is pixel-rate limited, so where your comparison for old PC and last-gen games - like the Medium - using HW RT will be better than a PS5 running them on those cards.
For UE5 where GPU clock matters and total ROPs matter, even a RTX 3060 TI with 80 ROPs and a 1500Mhz clock will be 30GigaPixels/s short of the PS5 for running those UE5 algorithms - even without optimisation for cache scrubbing or the PS5's new power constant boost clock paradigm or IO. So I'm not sure that's safe advice looking ahead.
DLSS is ML guess work, and requires more developer effort akin to offline lightmap baking for work required, and isn't a silver bullet, so is a bit of a fudge if claiming superiority from scaling up native 600p(? or something low) to sort of look correct....
PaintTinJr
Member
Interesting screen shot, but I don't quite get what you are trying to say. I was under the impression that the dark world redundantly uses a lot of the same meshes from the other layer, so I assumed it just loads the difference data to rearrange the common meshes when switching. Are you saying that it unloads all those meshes too, and then reloads them and then rearranges them - in the 4-5secs?No they don't. the dark world is completely unloaded. it doesn't exist in ram. Data layers is not like layers in photoshop, they are used for asset streaming in World Partition workflow at runtime.
Hoddi
Member
I kinda feel that racing games should be one of the better use cases for SSDs. They're basically 'fast travel' in the full sense of the word.
Most games won't stream data at gigabytes per second simply because the landscape doesn't switch quickly enough. But racing games have constantly changing scenery.
Md Ray
Member
The entire 31 GB is in compressed form. Uncompressed it would be a lot more. You have to fill the RAM fast enough from SSD, don't you? Even if you did you will hit a limitation one way or another there's no infinite amount of RAM inside PCs. The current ancient file system of Windows doesn't allow fast NVMe's bandwidth to be fully tapped. You need DirectStorage for that, is that hard to understand? Again, what you're suggesting is some unrealistic, impractical stuff.
Come back to reality where PCs are catching up and headed in the direction where consoles have reached in terms of I/O and its surrounding architecture.
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Loxus
Member
Watch Road to PS5.
Cerny said it himself and him made multiple consoles, what have you done in the console hardware space?
Loxus
Member
So in a few years PC's will finally have the tech to run a game like R&C is what your telling?
Well a PC with the same spec of PS5 hasn't had a game that looks as good as TLOU2 imo and that's a PS4 game.
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SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
I don't have to because you are fucking delusional.
System ram works in nanosecond time scales.
SSDs work in millisecond times scales.
You are not going to be using an SSD as ram. Literally ever.
Stooky
Member
You still have to fill the ram up fast. Good Compression and hardware decompressor solve that issue. Loading entire level in ram is extremely inefficient and a waste of valuable ram space. No one would design their game like that. PS5s I/O design offers the best both worlds and the proof is that graphics cards and pc hardware are moving in that direction in the future. IMO if a game like R&C was possible to make on pc we would have seen it by now.
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Loxus
Member
Lay off the personal attacks. Focus on their argument, not the poster.
Just go and watch Road to PS5 and understand what I'm talking about.
Cerny literally said it.
Are you saying Cerny is an idiot for saying that?
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SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
>>>System ram works in nanosecond time scales.<<<
>>>SSDs work in millisecond times scales.<<<
You are not using an SSD as ram, EVER.
Loxus
Member
"On PlayStation 5 though the SSD is very close to being like more RAM."
"Typically it's fast enough that when you realize you need a piece of data you can just load it from the SSD and use it there's no need to have lots of data parked in system memory waiting to potentially be used." - Mark Cerny
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
"On PlayStation 5 though the SSD is very close to being like more RAM."
"Typically it's fast enough that when you realize you need a piece of data you can just load it from the SSD and use it there's no need to have lots of data parked in system memory waiting to potentially be used." - Mark Cerny
Thank you for proving yourself wrong
>>>System ram works in nanosecond time scales.<<<
>>>SSDs work in millisecond times scales.<<<
You are not using an SSD as ram, EVER.
Loxus
Member
Is this dude for real?
I just provided him concrete evidence that the PS5's SSD act's as RAM. Evidence straight from the lead architect of the PS5 and he still act like he's not to knowledgeable.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
You did the exact opposite.
Loxus
Member
So your saying Mark Cerny is wrong then?
Ok, imma still stick with Cerny cause he actually made the console, not you.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
martino
Member
No
He even say later most of the ram (not all) is on the game behalf.
So no, ssd =/= ram.
And yes game pr claiming all ram is used for viewport are oversimplifying.
The ram utilization slide where all this is said illustrate very well what is happening to make it understandable for what it is(if you can)
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Md Ray
Member
He's not a marketing guy. It was meant to be a GDC conference for devs, not marketing speech.
Rea
Member
No they don't. the dark world is completely unloaded. it doesn't exist in ram. Data layers is not like layers in photoshop, they are used for asset streaming in World Partition workflow at runtime.
Watch this video, the guy said they are the same level but different part of the map.
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