theclaw135
Banned
Companies still using X86 have themselves to blame.
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Companies still using X86 have themselves to blame.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
I guess this topic is as good as any to ask. Ive been a longtime iMac user. Last time I had a PC was over 10 years ago. My job requires me to have stable Photoshop and After Effects. For the PC only people, if you never used a mac I dont know how else to explain but I havent reformatted my HDD since day one, everything is as smooth as day one. Which was not my experience with a PC back in the day. 2 years later everything slows down...boot up, apps, everything adn I would always have to do a fresh HDD format.
That was then, so my question is how is the PC in that regard nowadays, preferably for people that used both? I have to swap to a laptop due to remote work so now Im thinking high-end MacBook Pro 16" or Dell XPS? We all know apple overprices their products so I am very well aware of that. XPS for $300 less I get an extra 1TB SSD. The rest is pretty much same. Opinions?
P.S. dont care bout gaming on laptop.
That was then, so my question is how is the PC in that regard nowadays, preferably for people that used both? I have to swap to a laptop due to remote work so now Im thinking high-end MacBook Pro 16" or Dell XPS? We all know apple overprices their products so I am very well aware of that. XPS for $300 less I get an extra 1TB SSD. The rest is pretty much same. Opinions?
P.S. dont care bout gaming on laptop.
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TheSHEEEP
Gold Member
Apple walled garden is a disgrace.
Especially for developers and gamers.
Instead of doing what everyone does and implementing Vulkan as the best cross-platform graphics API, Apple decided to go with their own, inferior API of Metal.
For no logical reason, really. It does nothing better and only forces engine developers to cover yet another graphics API.
At least there is MoltenVK, which offers developers a method to support Linux + Windows easily, while (in theory) also including MacOS.
Especially for developers and gamers.
Instead of doing what everyone does and implementing Vulkan as the best cross-platform graphics API, Apple decided to go with their own, inferior API of Metal.
For no logical reason, really. It does nothing better and only forces engine developers to cover yet another graphics API.
At least there is MoltenVK, which offers developers a method to support Linux + Windows easily, while (in theory) also including MacOS.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
i7 means nothing... for a couple years now there’s been at least two lines of i7, the phat 45w unit and the ultrabook i7 that runs at 15w
God intel naming scheme is so stupid.
TheSHEEEP
Gold Member
To be fair, which hardware naming scheme isn't?
How can a GPU with the lower number 2070 be better than a GPU with the higher number 3060. It's fucking dumb.
Of course there is a reason behind it, so it can be understood once you learn the scheme.... but don't tell me they weren't able to come up with a better naming scheme that is actually intuitive.
Nehezir
Banned
Given that the I7 doesn't even necessarily guarantee that you'll get hyperthreading with your increase in cores or that the hyperthreading is unique to i7's...yeah, the worth of the I7 has been diminished greatly.
Once Intel did that one generation in the 9000s series where it was just a vanilla 8core processor and broke the pattern, it became much more solidly just a pretty name. They might've started using it again, but it's damaged the branding. I7 is just marketing now.
I know this was about the mobile side of things, but on desktop too they straight up tore a chunk out of it.
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Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Yep.
At least competition forced them to hyperthread the i7 series, remember when they announced only the i9 would get that feature?
Nehezir
Banned
exactly what I am thinking of and that's why I'm happy to have my 3700x
TheAssist
Member
I am not even a fan of apple, I dont own any of their products, but at least they understand their core audience. Of course a RISC cpu doesnt do everything as well as a x86 cpu and looking for programs that use the instruction set of a x86 cpu and run it against a RISC cpu is pointless.
If you're on a mac, you are not using chrome. You are using the browser that works best on your platform, which is safari in the case of the M1 macbooks. You are not using MS Office but whatever apples alternative is called.
Apple has done the research and optimized all those programs that are mostly used on their machines, including 3 party software like adobes creative suite. And thats what their core audience wants and needs. And as long as you dont stray away from that use case you are absolutely fine with a mac. And most video editors dont become researchers who need very specific software with the need for a very specific instruction set. They have workstations for that.
Intel is looking very weak right now and their marketing and language shows signs of insecurity.
If you're on a mac, you are not using chrome. You are using the browser that works best on your platform, which is safari in the case of the M1 macbooks. You are not using MS Office but whatever apples alternative is called.
Apple has done the research and optimized all those programs that are mostly used on their machines, including 3 party software like adobes creative suite. And thats what their core audience wants and needs. And as long as you dont stray away from that use case you are absolutely fine with a mac. And most video editors dont become researchers who need very specific software with the need for a very specific instruction set. They have workstations for that.
Intel is looking very weak right now and their marketing and language shows signs of insecurity.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
So much wrong in this post
Macs retain their resale price not because of "value" but because there's no free market when it comes to Apple products. There's only 1 supplier of macs and they do things like paying 3rd parties to disassemble and send to the trashbin their products in order to restrict the availability of their hardware (which conveniently they PR it as "ecological"). Like many monopolists, Apple loathes the second hand market and they are working diligently to neuter it by way of making their products unrepairable and unupgradable.
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MeatSafeMurderer
Member
I really don't care how good the M1 is or isn't. Apple will never see a penny from me. Their products are over-engineered to the point of excess with the sole intent of making it hard to repair. They're the company that brought you such bangers as "half a decade of defective GPUs that they fought tooth and nail to not have to recall" and "the riveted in built to fail keyboard". They actively lobby against right to repair.
Fuck 'em.
smbu2000
Member
The Mac vs. PC thing is accurate, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the Intel CPUs inside them.
The Mac issues that Intel is complaining about have been around since Apple's redesign in 2016. Apple didn't update the design in anyway for these first generation M1 products. The only difference now between these late 2020 M1 Macs and the late 2016 through early 2020 Macs is that those 2016-2020 Macs had an Intel CPU. The design is exactly the same.
My 2018 13" Macbook Pro has this same design Intel is complaining about, but instead of the M1 it has an Intel CPU (8th gen. i7-8559U, quad core).
Why wasn't Intel making these same commercials way back in 2016?
Apple is still selling Macs with Intel CPUs right now. It seems strange that they are attacking them. The 13" high end Macbook Pro has up to a 10th gen quad core i7. The 16" Macbook pro has up to a 9th gen. 8core i9. The 27" iMac has up to a 10th gen. 10core i9 and the Mac Pro has up to a 28core Xeon W CPU.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Not to mention when they decided the screen cable instead of being detachable on both ends should be permanently stuck to the screen so if the 5 cent cable fails you need to replace the entire top case of your laptop (what's that repair these days for a 16 inch macbook, 500$?). But that cable would never fail, right? Well, if you think so, don't google "macbook flexgate".
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Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
sorry but the surface line is just as "shit" i own both i really don't care what company makes what.
the butterfly keys where shit so i did not buy an apple.
they fixed it and have an insane battery life.
intel makes something better then m1 in the future?
i guess i will try that, srsly not a fanboy i could care less.
but right now? Insane battery life. True portability? crazy good screen and quiet? Apple M1 no contest.. well i guess technically the ipad pro.
Deaconstanjesusman
Banned
some of the arguments on here are ridiculous. My 2013 MacBook Pro runs flawlessly. That it makes new windows pcs look mediocre. It does what I want, runs smooth and I can boot camp or run in unison windows if I want to.
boighh the wife the m1. Great bit of kit. She gets 18-22 hours out of it. People who aren’t in the Apple ecosystem don’t get it. It works for us very well. A lot of us don’t care about tweaking everything and we enjoy the garden. My wife pulls out her iPad Pro and automatically it’s now a second screen for her laptop
keep the gaming. I’ll keep the ps5 and less headaches
boighh the wife the m1. Great bit of kit. She gets 18-22 hours out of it. People who aren’t in the Apple ecosystem don’t get it. It works for us very well. A lot of us don’t care about tweaking everything and we enjoy the garden. My wife pulls out her iPad Pro and automatically it’s now a second screen for her laptop
keep the gaming. I’ll keep the ps5 and less headaches
llien
Member
I thing important 'new thing" is that we have ARM based server chip that even wins in certain benchmarks, but actually is at best on par in terms of power consumption (and is using more cores). It is still a threat to x86 world as those chips tend to be much cheaper.Intel is right to do this; Apple is no more a partner and M1 is not the great leap forward that some want us to believe.
Intel should be more concerned by what is happening on the server side where both AMD and Ampere are now offering cheaper and better solutions.
AMD 3rd Gen EPYC Milan Review: A Peak vs Per Core Performance Balance
www.anandtech.com
In the context of M1 vs x86 this basically outlines where ARM really is, weaker core, which x86 CPUs already match on perf/watt.
On AMD vs Intel bit, it's bloodbath.
llien
Member
Such as?
M1 is a huge (bigger than 8 core 5000 series Ryzen) chip on 5nm and far from stellar (by ARM standards and even by mobile x86 standards) power consumption.
The 2020 Mac Mini Unleashed: Putting Apple Silicon M1 To The Test
Dunno, dude, Win + P and <insert non apple-crippled device, including TVs> is my "another" screen.
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The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Well if you had an PC then one platform would've suffice.Apple is like PlayStation to me: 4 Life.
But maybe that's the reason Gaf thinks its hard to play on a computer and a PlayStation is better. Because they try to play on a mac.
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PropellerEar
Member
How it beats Intel in e.g C++ compilation times without breaking a sweat.(MBP Vs MBP)
Why bring up Ryzen when I said i7/i9?
I would remind you to once again look at what the topic of this thread is.
My next PC build will be with Ryzen.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Should've focused on R&D instead of shareholder payouts. Intel is fucked.
DrAspirino
Banned
Basically power efficiency. Apple is obsessed with power saving features, and if something can be done to reduce even more power consumption, they'll do it. iOS and MacOS have their interfaces running entirely in Metal, just to save power (instead of using OpenGL or Vulkan, which are more powerful).
I'm not saying I agree with that approach, but Apple's obsession with power efficiency and closing their walled garden explains A LOT of their decissions.
llien
Member
Because:
a) it's x86
b) it is on a node process, although inferior, but still closer to 5nm that Apple is using
DrAspirino
Banned
M1 and Ryzen CPUs have really done a number on Intel in the consumer market. And if we talk about servers and workstations, EPYC CPUs wipes the floor with current Xeons. If Intel doesn't get its shit together, they'll be behind on the game for a loooooong shot.
BacklashWave534
Member
You must be doing it wrong. A 5 year old child can use a MAC.
PropellerEar
Member
Duchess
Member
Fun fact: Steve Jobs hated video games and actively discouraged their development on Macs.
bit-tech.net
John Carmack: Steve Jobs hates games | bit-tech.net
In a recent interview John Carmack has said that the reason Apple hasn't been big on games is because of CEO Steve Jobs.
bit-tech.net
llien
Member
llien
Member
Not fun fact is that the fact of Carmack stating "Steve Jobs doesn't care about games" turned into "Steve Jobs hates games" in the title.Fun fact: Steve Jobs hated video games and actively discouraged their development on Macs.
John Carmack: Steve Jobs hates games | bit-tech.net
In a recent interview John Carmack has said that the reason Apple hasn't been big on games is because of CEO Steve Jobs.
MightySquirrel
Banned
If not for long contracts all big tech companies and server providers would be on AMD's Zen3 by now.
PropellerEar
Member
3400$ Intel i9 MBP starting to lift off with the fans spinning up getting beat by 1500$ M1 MBP not even breaking a sweat.
Considering this is their first try at this, yes that is exactly what I call it.
Shadowstar39
Member
Why because they are sticking up for pc? Go play x game on your non x86 mac, or any of your old software...oh wait you can't. You can't even sideload as Tim Cook or whoever is now in charge of apple is a tyrant and against free expression.
Shadowstar39
Member
Yep, its insane to me that people on a gaming forum are sticking up for apple. yeah intel hasn't released the greatest cpus in the past few years but they did before that for like a decade. They will bounce back. Their cpus support decades of software. The tyrant and anti freedom Tim cook wants to control what you can do on your machine, what you can read, or hear. If he doesn't like it or goes against his worldview , banned. Sorry I will never support that. Apple to me died with Steve Jobs rip..
Sure i own an AMD ryzen now, but who is to say intel won't come back with a better chip and amd has been showing to over price their newest products. Let alone availability issues.
Shadowstar39
Member
How can you be a gamer and love a macbook? You can't play games besides their store apps. You can't mess with settings, mods, install old software. They ban apps they don't like from their stores and there is no sideloading. Anti freedom company. As gamer, as a hobbyiest coder, and ethusiast since the 1980s, apple hasn't been good for computers since the apple ii line, imo. Macs are restrictive.
Arm processors can't run all my games or software so its a moot point for me.
Shadowstar39
Member
What? lol. I work in IT. I have worked for a bank, a foundry, a catholic convent, private school system, electric company, etc... Contracted out.
Guess what, every IT person cringes when someone has a mac.
They are a nightmare to work on. The problems aren't well documented and many things require "going to apple" or buying a new one.
Don't even get me started in apps. I currently work for a company that makes rare alloys and have chem labs and basically own their own small town inside the city. There are 100s of dedicated apps for manufacturing, design, finance. All built and run on windows. In a windows server environment. Those applications could not run on mac without being rebuilt. A process that would take years and billions of dollars. In other words x86 is here to stay.
Also all sorts of positions use more than email browser and text editor. Even higher ups, i know there desktops are full of applications.
DaleinCalgary
Member
Apple doesn't care what Intel says.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
The what?
The first number 30 is generation/series the second number 60 is the actual product.
Gen on gen replacements need to share names else its just a random shit.
If the 2070 replacement is called the xt1800 and its replacement fu350 how would 2070 owners or anyone for that matter know whats what?
By having clear RTX[gen][model] naming everyone can keep track.
Need to replace a 570 with a card in the same market position? Look for the latest xx70.
Where you expecting the 30 series to start from 3090 and climb to 30150 as so not to have replacement models?
P.S The 3060 should have named 3050. 60ti and 70 arent in the same class.
P.P.S The 3060 will walk a 2070 9 times outta 10
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TheSHEEEP
Gold Member
You are merely confirming what I wrote.
Of course I understand how the naming scheme works, I'm not an idiot.
My point is that the naming scheme is unnecessarily confusing, thus being very much in-line with the i7 naming that I was replying to.
The naming scheme is completely ass-backwards.
Here's a simple and undeniable piece of logic: Higher numbers are better than lower ones when it comes to versioning. That is the expectation and followed by almost everything.
Anyone would expect a product with the version 3060 to be better than the same product (as in, both are graphics cards of the same series) with the number 2070. Because 3060 is a bigger number than 2070. However, this is not the case.
The most important information is actually at the END of the same number: xx70.
But even that is not a guarantee. Is the 1070 better than the 3060? Probably not.
What would have made a lot more sense would have been to split generation and tier into two instead.
E.g. "gen1 low" "gen1 mid" "gen1 high" for 1060 1070 and 1080, "gen2 low" "gen2 mid" "gen2 high" for 2060, 2070 and 2080. With fancier names, of course, but you get the idea.
It would be a lot less counterintuitive to say that a "gen3 low" is not as good as a "gen2 mid".
This is all very nitpicky, naturally. It is a simple enough scheme to learn.
But the point here is that even that simple scheme has been created needlessly counterintuitive, requiring a learning process to begin with.
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llien
Member
Uh, so apple thingy vs apple thingy. I get it now.
They are into ARM CPUs for longer than a decade.
Like for like, the only way to attach "impressive" to it is in conjunction with "for an ARM CPU".
I realize it still might make a huge difference to people within the walled garden.
llien
Member
There is something much more peculiar going with GPUs.
3070 could easily be faster than... wait for it... 3080.
TDPs are THAT fucked up at the moment.
I wonder if AMD (MIA so far, but RDNA2 are inbound) would follow the suit and join the mess, or handle it classy.
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nordique
Member
how can you be a gamer and love a Mac?
I’m a gamer, I own my ps5 series X and switch
And I love my MacBook
There.
S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
Then they should cringe too for using Windows, as Linux is easily the best option available for security, databases, and development.
Also, IT is a big branch with many different fields. Not every IT person does the same thing and for some using a Mac is the better option.
Quite honestly, I don't see it. The only advantage Windows has against Mac and Linux is gaming. Everything else is just as good or better on the competition's devices. OS X being a more closed system is kinda a bummer, but it comes with advantages too, and for most scenarios, that's a nothing burger anyway and if you need an open system with a ton of flexibility, you choose Linux over Windows.
An IT person should have experience with all three, otherwise, you are not a real IT person in my book.
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nordique
Member
So much wrong in this post
Macs retain their resale price not because of "value" but because there's no free market when it comes to Apple products. There's only 1 supplier of macs and they do things like paying 3rd parties to disassemble and send to the trashbin their products in order to restrict the availability of their hardware (which conveniently they PR it as "ecological"). Like many monopolists, Apple loathes the second hand market and they are working diligently to neuter it by way of making their products unrepairable and unupgradable.
well, all I know is I can sell my 8 year old laptop for 1/3 to 1/4 of what I paid and put it forward towards another purchase
and I like that. Regardless of whatever the reasons are.
nordique
Member
they are, you’re right. But I think it’s part of a transition
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