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Intel's 12th Gen 12900K i9 beat AMDs Ryzen 9 5950X. At 2.3x the power.

JohnnyFootball

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AMD is in a bad position.
"They need to lower prices", but they don't control how much they have to pay to fab the chips. This is the advantage that Intel has that can kill AMD, they can be much more aggressive with prices to undercut AMD and break their momentum.

As expected Alder is faster on games, AMD can recover with Ryzen is 3DNow!™ but this will make the chips more expensive, so how can AMD compete (on games)?

I'm surprised that Alder didn't beat AMD on productivity but it's close enough and people are saying that Zen 4 will only be a small improvement.


It's the "back to a competitive scenario" that people where hoping, but personally I dislike this.
Intel, never (or rarely ever) in their history, have they ever cut prices. There is no way they will cut the price of Alder Lake so soon, especially since it is the undisputed performance king. It is simply a move that is not necessary and 100% goes against their history even when they were uncompetitive against AMD. While Intel could cut prices, nobody who has studied Intels pricing history would expect Intel to do this. It would also be very bad business to do so right after release and would send the wrong message to consumers and investors. Making the argument that Intel could cut prices to kill AMD isn't a very good one.
 
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FireFly

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AMD is in a bad position.
"They need to lower prices", but they don't control how much they have to pay to fab the chips. This is the advantage that Intel has that can kill AMD, they can be much more aggressive with prices to undercut AMD and break their momentum.

As expected Alder is faster on games, AMD can recover with Ryzen is 3DNow!™ but this will make the chips more expensive, so how can AMD compete (on games)?

I'm surprised that Alder didn't beat AMD on productivity but it's close enough and people are saying that Zen 4 will only be a small improvement.


It's the "back to a competitive scenario" that people where hoping, but personally I dislike this.
Alder Lake is 215mm² for the full chip and 162.75 mm² for the 6P version, vs. 80.7 mm² for a Zen 3 CCD. So AMD's chips are substantially smaller, plus they benefit from getting a high proportion of usable dies. Don't forget that even AMD's $329 6600 is 237 mm², plus the 8GB of GDRR6 memory.

So I am sure AMD can go much lower if they need to, however it looks like they will just need to offer a 5800X w/V-Cache for ~$349.
 
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rickybooby87

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Alder Lake is 215mm² for the full chip and 162.75 mm² for the 6P version, vs. 80.7 mm² for a Zen 3 CCD. So AMD's chips are substantially smaller, plus they benefit from getting a high proportion of usable dies. Don't forget that even AMD's $329 6600 is 237 mm², plus the 8GB of GDRR6 memory.

So I am sure AMD can go much lower if they need to, however it looks like they will just need to offer a 5800X w/V-Cache for ~$349.

This.

From what I've read, V-Cache is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% uplift in IPC? Mix that with a slight price reduction and then it's business as usual.
 

Papacheeks

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AMD is in a bad position.
"They need to lower prices", but they don't control how much they have to pay to fab the chips. This is the advantage that Intel has that can kill AMD, they can be much more aggressive with prices to undercut AMD and break their momentum.

As expected Alder is faster on games, AMD can recover with Ryzen is 3DNow!™ but this will make the chips more expensive, so how can AMD compete (on games)?

I'm surprised that Alder didn't beat AMD on productivity but it's close enough and people are saying that Zen 4 will only be a small improvement.


It's the "back to a competitive scenario" that people where hoping, but personally I dislike this.
TSMC is not going to be the only factory with 5nm fab after 2022.

If you think we can't make those same chips in America you are mistaken. Depending on what we pay for mineral deposits is another story. But ADM being American company, would get tax breaks keeping production here in the states. Or some kind of non land tax on the facility to compensate. Especially if they are using green energy for the fab like Solar, natural gas. There is a fab already that runs on solar and its super efficient.

AMD is not in a bad position if you think that they cant lean on Japan as Sony is now getting into business in opening up a fab factory then you are short sighted. 2020 has been a wake up call for the industry currently. More fabs are being built in non eastern territories and some in territories where prices would see declines in price per wafer.
 

Xyphie

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People are really overestimating the performance impact V-cache will have. In most things it will be a ~0% performance uplift, probably nice in cache-sensitive games though.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

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Igor’s Lab did a comparison of average watts and FPS/Watt for a bunch of games. It’s extremely impressive.

Yes for all cores maxed out the power consumption is very high, but for real world gaming it’s actually the most efficient.
 

DeaDPooL_jlp

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Watched a couple videos so far, have more to go, I'll say I'm happy I pre-ordered though, really looking forward to getting these parts in and taking Horizon 5 for a test drive.
 
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Papacheeks

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Igor’s Lab did a comparison of average watts and FPS/Watt for a bunch of games. It’s extremely impressive.

Yes for all cores maxed out the power consumption is very high, but for real world gaming it’s actually the most efficient.

It's not according to everyone when not doing gaming tasks which use gpu for than cpu. ANd those tests are at 1440p/4k where the gpu will pull more than cpu.

This is only gaming tests as mentioned, it's part 1:

Conclusion and conclusion

Even though today’s part 1 was all about gaming for now, this trend visible here (I may spoil that already) will more than continue tomorrow in part 2 with the real applications. Then we will also learn two more things. First, we’ll understand much better why Intel introduced this juggling act with the inflated PL1 and the lack of fallback to lower values in the first place, and second, we’ll be able to see performance differences of over 40% in some places in applications when it comes to mixed workloads, which games just can’t represent. To reduce Alder Lake purely to gaming would be really criminal.
 
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DonkeyPunchJr

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It's not according to everyone when not doing gaming tasks which use gpu for than cpu. ANd those tests are at 1440p/4k where the gpu will pull more than cpu.
I clearly indicated I was talking about real world gaming and that this isn’t the case for other workloads. A large # of people interested in these CPUs are gamers, and this “OMG Alder Lake consumes more than double the power of Zen 3” is actually dead wrong FOR GAMING.

Also a faster CPU can actually mean higher GPU power consumption as well, because then the CPU is less of a bottleneck and the GPU is kept more busy. The article points this out.
 
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Papacheeks

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I clearly indicated I was talking about real world gaming and that this isn’t the case for other workloads. A large # of people interested in these CPUs are gamers, and this “OMG Alder Lake consumes more than double the power of Zen 3” is actually dead wrong FOR GAMING.

Also a faster CPU can actually mean higher GPU power consumption as well, because then the CPU is less of a bottleneck and the GPU is kept more busy. The article points this out.

I think my and many others whole talking point is in 2021 no one is playing games and not streaming, making videos of said games. ANd thats where intel gets into issues.
 

DonkeyPunchJr

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I think my and many others whole talking point is in 2021 no one is playing games and not streaming, making videos of said games. ANd thats where intel gets into issues.
Then your talking point is bullshit. There are tons and tons of people whose only processing-intensive use case is gaming and who don’t give a single crap about streaming while they play.

if you’re doing other stuff besides gaming then yeah by all means you should be looking at other benchmarks. Nobody is disagreeing with that.
 
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Papacheeks

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Then your talking point is bullshit. There are tons and tons of people whose only processing-intensive use case is gaming and who don’t give a single crap about streaming while they play.

if you’re doing other stuff besides gaming then yeah by all means you should be looking at other benchmarks. Nobody is disagreeing with that.

But a product line is not used for one thing is a lot of peoples points and is the point in a lot of these reviews? They literally split them up to show you on both sides how the cpu does? DO you understand these CPU's are going in prebuilds? DO you understand how small the gaming segment is for Intel?
And if you actually watched other videos' like the Level1Tech video you would know that these power consumptions for the laptop variants is super concerning. Laptop market is almost as large if not larger than desktop. And im not even talking gaming.

And thats what a lot of these reviewers are showing. They focus on gaming because most people watching their content are gamers. But then you have other people who look at the arstechnica's and level1tech like myself who need to know these things like power consumption and heat for possible equipment purchases for my Station.
Like we are buying new PC's and possibly servers in next couple months and into next year. Need to know what kind of power/heat consumption these things are doing. We have commercial producers who do 4k drone footage on top of our news room which is getting upgraded.

But by all means you do you, and think gamers actually represent where the bulk of Intel/AMD make their money.
 
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DonkeyPunchJr

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But a product line is not used for one thing is a lot of peoples points and is the point in a lot of these reviews? They literally split them up to show you on both sides how the cpu does? DO you understand these CPU's are going in prebuilds? DO you understand how small the gaming segment is for Intel?
And if you actually watched other videos' like the Level1Tech video you would know that these power consumptions for the laptop variants is super concerning. Laptop market is almost as large if not larger than desktop. And im not even talking gaming.

And thats what a lot of these reviewers are showing. They focus on gaming because most people watching their content are gamers. But then you have other people who look at the arstechnica's and level1tech like myself who need to know these things like power consumption and heat for possible equipment purchases for my Station.
Like we are buying new PC's and possibly servers in next couple months and into next year. Need to know what kind of power/heat consumption these things are doing. We have commercial producers who do 4k drone footage on top of our news room which is getting upgraded.

But by all means you do you, and think gamers actually represent where the bulk of Intel/AMD make their money.
I KNOW THAT GAMING ISNT THE ONLY USE CASE. Jesus Christ. Did you even read my post?

I said that IF all you care about is gaming THEN the power consumption is really great. I am in no way claiming that gaming benchmarks are the only metrics that matter to everyone everywhere and are the sole objective measure of a CPUs value.
 
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//DEVIL//

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So the difference between the highest intel offering and my 5600x is around 30 frames to 35 frames at full HD ( less at 2k )

yeah I’ll pass . Not gonna buy a new motherboard and cpu and ddr5 for 15 -20 frames more than what I currently have.

also these temps . The 9 series from intel reach 96 degrees with a 360 aio cooler . Like what the fuck man ( from HU video )

need a freezer to cool this shit ? My desktop is at the table close to me and when my video card reach 70 I start not to like it ( which is why I went with Suprim x 3070 so it doesn’t even reach 65 full load )

95 degrees ... who wants a steak or eggs ? No need for oven anymore . Just put the frying pan on top of your cpu lol
AMD will destroy them next year
 
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Epic Sax CEO

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Clock for Clock, Golden Cove is just 1% faster than Zen 3?




Not only Zen is 3DNow!™ is coming, it's also coming with a B2 stepping with slightly better clocks.

Intel, never (or rarely ever) in their history, have they ever cut prices. There is no way they will cut the price of Alder Lake so soon, especially since it is the undisputed performance king. It is simply a move that is not necessary and 100% goes against their history even when they were uncompetitive against AMD. While Intel could cut prices, nobody who has studied Intels pricing history would expect Intel to do this. It would also be very bad business to do so right after release and would send the wrong message to consumers and investors. Making the argument that Intel could cut prices to kill AMD isn't a very good one.

Are you crazy! History says otherwise, Intel can also be very aggressive with prices when AMD have the better CPU. Did you forget that this whole Zen train made Intel cut prices IN HALF? Intel CPUs used to be much more expensive just a while ago, and I repeat, because Intel owns so many fabs and have so much cash they can be aggressive with prices in a way that AMD can't, plus Intel can flood the market with chips while AMD only gets limited quantities from TSMC (and they prioritizing the server market).
New orders on TSMC are becoming more expensive, and that additional cache comes with a price.
Zen is 3DNow!™ will not have much impact if it's only limited to the top models being even more expensive. Everyone (gamers) will flock to Intel midrangers.
 
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FireFly

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Are you crazy! History says otherwise, Intel can also be very aggressive with prices when AMD have the better CPU. Did you forget that this whole Zen train made Intel cut prices IN HALF? Intel CPUs used to be much more expensive just a while ago, and I repeat, because Intel owns so many fabs and have so much cash they can be aggressive with prices in a way that AMD can't, plus Intel can flood the market with chips while AMD only gets limited quantities from TSMC (and they prioritizing the server market).
I doubt either company could flood the market with chips right now.

 

Kenpachii

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chips are easy gainable, i can buy it from multiple sources.

So the difference between the highest intel offering and my 5600x is around 30 frames to 35 frames at full HD ( less at 2k )

yeah I’ll pass . Not gonna buy a new motherboard and cpu and ddr5 for 15 -20 frames more than what I currently have.

also these temps . The 9 series from intel reach 96 degrees with a 360 aio cooler . Like what the fuck man ( from HU video )

need a freezer to cool this shit ? My desktop is at the table close to me and when my video card reach 70 I start not to like it ( which is why I went with Suprim x 3070 so it doesn’t even reach 65 full load )

95 degrees ... who wants a steak or eggs ? No need for oven anymore . Just put the frying pan on top of your cpu lol
AMD will destroy them next year

heat is only a problem if coolers can't deal with it. This seems to be fine on even normal coolers and that heat will only be displayed when the cores are max taxed which never happens. Also wattage output seems to be in line with what AMD has so there isn't much of a problem there.

As of now 12600k is a no brainer, and 12900k is the top cpu to go for. 5000 series got benched with this release.

With the higher single core performance, its doubtful AMD will beat the 12000 series, they will rpobably get close or equal towards it but that's about it. AMD will have to focus on more cores or again drop there prices.

Still AMD next series could be interesting if u can upgrade on the same board multiple times again with there cpu's.
 
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DenchDeckard

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Impressive CPUs IMO.

AMD wont launch until mid next year I don't think, hopefully it pushes the envelope even further.

I think intel is onto something here.
 

JohnnyFootball

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Clock for Clock, Golden Cove is just 1% faster than Zen 3?




Not only Zen is 3DNow!™ is coming, it's also coming with a B2 stepping with slightly better clocks.



Are you crazy! History says otherwise, Intel can also be very aggressive with prices when AMD have the better CPU. Did you forget that this whole Zen train made Intel cut prices IN HALF? Intel CPUs used to be much more expensive just a while ago, and I repeat, because Intel owns so many fabs and have so much cash they can be aggressive with prices in a way that AMD can't, plus Intel can flood the market with chips while AMD only gets limited quantities from TSMC (and they prioritizing the server market).
New orders on TSMC are becoming more expensive, and that additional cache comes with a price.
Zen is 3DNow!™ will not have much impact if it's only limited to the top models being even more expensive. Everyone (gamers) will flock to Intel midrangers.
Intel has never cut the prices of any processors in half. Shut the fuck up with this insane nonsense. They set a price at the beginning of each architecture and it largely stays at that price.
 

Epic Sax CEO

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I doubt either company could flood the market with chips right now.


"Flood in comparison".
Aren't people complaining for a whole year that it's hard to buy AMD chips (and GPUs)? Intel can produce much more, specially now that they apparently fixed their 10nm problems.

Who is saying this, exactly?

Latest rumors seem to point that Zen 4 will not be that big of a improvement because not much will change.
The big changes seems to be reserved to Zen 5, that should come faster, making Zen 4 the shortest living Zen.

Intel has never cut the prices of any processors in half. Shut the fuck up with this insane nonsense. They set a price at the beginning of each architecture and it largely stays at that price.

You're still not understanding.
I'm not talking about cutting the prices of a product already on the shelves, I'm talking about the next product coming at half the price of the previous product. It happened.



People are here pointing how big these monolithic CPUs are, and still the price is competitive with AMD.
 

SantaC

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So the difference between the highest intel offering and my 5600x is around 30 frames to 35 frames at full HD ( less at 2k )

yeah I’ll pass . Not gonna buy a new motherboard and cpu and ddr5 for 15 -20 frames more than what I currently have.

also these temps . The 9 series from intel reach 96 degrees with a 360 aio cooler . Like what the fuck man ( from HU video )

need a freezer to cool this shit ? My desktop is at the table close to me and when my video card reach 70 I start not to like it ( which is why I went with Suprim x 3070 so it doesn’t even reach 65 full load )

95 degrees ... who wants a steak or eggs ? No need for oven anymore . Just put the frying pan on top of your cpu lol
AMD will destroy them next year
Why would anyone upgrade from zen 3 to alder lake?
 

DonkeyPunchJr

Member
Nov 1, 2020
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So the difference between the highest intel offering and my 5600x is around 30 frames to 35 frames at full HD ( less at 2k )

yeah I’ll pass . Not gonna buy a new motherboard and cpu and ddr5 for 15 -20 frames more than what I currently have.

also these temps . The 9 series from intel reach 96 degrees with a 360 aio cooler . Like what the fuck man ( from HU video )

need a freezer to cool this shit ? My desktop is at the table close to me and when my video card reach 70 I start not to like it ( which is why I went with Suprim x 3070 so it doesn’t even reach 65 full load )

95 degrees ... who wants a steak or eggs ? No need for oven anymore . Just put the frying pan on top of your cpu lol
AMD will destroy them next year
Look at post 108. For real world gaming the power consumption is actually lower than Zen 3.
 

Chiggs

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Why would anyone upgrade from zen 3 to alder lake?

I guess if they game at 1080P or something and need max FPS? I just think these CPU comparisons are funny when you go to 4k...all of the shit is within 5 FPS of each other. :messenger_grinning_sweat:

 

Papacheeks

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I'd love to hear how you came to this conclusion.

Radeon Live has a feature to record your games automatically. And half the people who play on custom Rigs are either recording gameplay, streaming or encoding something game related. Very few people spend $3000+ for a 5800x, 68xt-3080rtx to play Doom Eternal in 4k and only do that.

Most people look at their PC as a long term gaming investment. Where they can do other things, like record a podcast, make a video cast, encode their personal home movies. Everyone wants to be a streamer or game content creator. I mean anyone can make clips/stream directly from PS5/XBS?
 

Kacho

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Radeon Live has a feature to record your games automatically. And half the people who play on custom Rigs are either recording gameplay, streaming or encoding something game related. Very few people spend $3000+ for a 5800x, 68xt-3080rtx to play Doom Eternal in 4k and only do that.

Most people look at their PC as a long term gaming investment. Where they can do other things, like record a podcast, make a video cast, encode their personal home movies. Everyone wants to be a streamer or game content creator. I mean anyone can make clips/stream directly from PS5/XBS?
I assume Radeon Live is similar to whatever Nvidia uses. Forget the name.

Where are you getting the bolded part from? Is there actual data that supports this or is it just your opinion?
 

mrBarrelNut

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Seems like the 12600KF will be the new gaming king by a huge margin, great 12900K rivalling gaming performance with a very low price.
 

FireFly

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"Flood in comparison".
Aren't people complaining for a whole year that it's hard to buy AMD chips (and GPUs)? Intel can produce much more, specially now that they apparently fixed their 10nm problems.
Are they? I thought Zen 3 CPUs were widely available now. Looking online, they look to be in stock on Newegg. We would expect Intel to be able to produce a lot more overall, but they also have much more market share, and with 10 nm being their main process for servers, desktops and laptop chips moving forward, I could see them being supply constrained, and having to carefully prioritise each market, like AMD is doing. Don't forget that investors were already complaining about supply constraints on 14nm.

 

Pagusas

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Love it, healthy competition is back. My 5950x will last me likely 2 cycles of CPU's, so hopefully in 2 years Intel and AMD are blowing it out of the water
 
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drotahorror

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Radeon Live has a feature to record your games automatically. And half the people who play on custom Rigs are either recording gameplay, streaming or encoding something game related. Very few people spend $3000+ for a 5800x, 68xt-3080rtx to play Doom Eternal in 4k and only do that.

Most people look at their PC as a long term gaming investment. Where they can do other things, like record a podcast, make a video cast, encode their personal home movies. Everyone wants to be a streamer or game content creator. I mean anyone can make clips/stream directly from PS5/XBS?

I think someone needs to make a poll. And are you saying Shadowplay and the like is considered 'streaming'? I don't. PS4/5 and XB record gameplay at all times but I wouldn't call that streaming.
 
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JohnnyFootball

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"Flood in comparison".
Aren't people complaining for a whole year that it's hard to buy AMD chips (and GPUs)? Intel can produce much more, specially now that they apparently fixed their 10nm problems.



Latest rumors seem to point that Zen 4 will not be that big of a improvement because not much will change.
The big changes seems to be reserved to Zen 5, that should come faster, making Zen 4 the shortest living Zen.



You're still not understanding.
I'm not talking about cutting the prices of a product already on the shelves, I'm talking about the next product coming at half the price of the previous product. It happened.



People are here pointing how big these monolithic CPUs are, and still the price is competitive with AMD.
Those are 100% different than price cuts. A price cut means you take the price of an existing product and cut it. Intel offered slightly better prices per generation, but the highest end was still $500- $600 every single time.