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Interesting finds showing PS4, XB1 and PS3 media plans

What's the deal with Xbox One HDMI then?
Is it 2.0/HDCP2.2 capable?

Or is it gimped and doesn't have full 2.0 bandwith, do the newer 1 TB models have different chips? I want to know!
HDCP for the XB1 takes place in the APU and the custom designed for XB1 hardware should support the HDMI 2.0 timings. So both the XB1 and PS4 are 4k blu ray players with firmware update. It's not as obvious on the XB1 but HDMI 2.0 clock and timing were known and are simple to support. What was difficult is the HDCP encryption, firmware updatable with watermarking.
 

OfficerZap

Neo Member
Thanks, Jeff. Fascinating as always. Thanks for compiling everything so neatly!



There should be a mod disclaimer on all Jeff threads saying "if you don't understand the details, don't ask for the dummies guide".

The gist here is that the MM capabilities of both consoles rest on standards being adopted/implemented, and given both the tech and the companies involved in that, there are always unwelcome delays.

The current PS4 player was a bolted together stopgap due to these delays. Sony doesn't help by not coming out and saying that though.
 

driver116

Member
BD XL drive is able to read 4 layer recordable disks. The 4K Blu-ray standard is only one layer more than 1080P blu-ray and can read a disk faster than the PS3 blu-ray drives. I.E. modern blu-ray drive.



From Sony: There is a patent from Sony describing how they might implement 4K blu-ray and the issue is that older drives can support it and that creates DRM issues. Their proposed fix is to invert the track info on 4 K disks so older drives can't support 4K but 4K drives can still support standard blu-ray. This patent was probably not implemented so all we can take from it is that blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray.

Won't 4k be using HEVC/h265?
 

ddikxela

Member
For the -
Your threads always have me like.....

 

Ombala

Member
I know we had a long old thread about the connected home some time ago what happened with those predictions?
 
Won't 4k be using HEVC/h265?
Blu-ray has the video encoded with a version h.264 then encrypted and written to a 2 layer disk. 4K blu-ray has the video encoded with a version of h.265 then encrypted and written to a 3 layer blu-ray disk with the Panasonic tweak extending the storage from 25 to 33 GB/layer.

The PS4, XB1 and AMD Kaveri use Xtensa accelerators for codecs like HEVC/h.265.

I got banned for this post (my first in the five years on NeoGAF) but it's a compilation of the proofs for the XB1 and the Xtensa accelerator. The OP is quoting a Forbes article stating the PS4 and XB1 original versions don't support being a 4K blu-ray player. One of the arguments was no HEVC support which all the cites I posted proved otherwise. The author is wrong and I had already posted 4 months before that they would be 4K blu-ray players and offered proof.
 

BrunoM

Member
So let me start by saying you are able to make me feel dumb lol and you do a great job at that Jeff lol

..
Now for real always enjoy reading your threads well put together and easy to follow
Good to know 4k will be coming and same for browser updates to the video player I would make a lot of use of the ps4 browser IF it supported html5 video and well html5 video became the standard fast as fuck lol ..

Side note ...
Eh make sure you keep these coming !!
 
I'm scared. The OP reads like Hieroglypics that my heart started to race out of frustration of seeing "English" but without any sort of reception to reading it.
 
I know we had a long old thread about the connected home some time ago what happened with those predictions?
They are delayed and the reasons for the latest delay is in the OP.

Game Consoles to replace Cable boxes and the connected home starts in 2014

Tivo suits (2 of them ) delayed DLNA CVP2 = vidipath and now with the 4K launch coming at the end of this year and the FCC DSTAC Downloadable Security allowing clear QAM tuners with Sony Passage, it's delayed till later this year from June. When though I don't know.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
BD XL drive is able to read 4 layer recordable disks. The 4K Blu-ray standard is only one layer more than 1080P blu-ray and can read a disk faster than the PS3 blu-ray drives. I.E. modern blu-ray drive.



From Sony: There is a patent from Sony describing how they might implement 4K blu-ray and the issue is that older drives can support it and that creates DRM issues. Their proposed fix is to invert the track info on 4 K disks so older drives can't support 4K but 4K drives can still support standard blu-ray. This patent was probably not implemented so all we can take from it is that blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray.

So is it safe to assume the PS4 can receive firmware updates since it is a faster drive, especially with the custom Panasonic chip?

We all know that games are getting larger (textures/lossless audio, etc) and it may be more cost efficient to have 100/128GB discs versus multiple 50GB ones. They have always been future proof in that regards when it comes to storage with their consoles.
 

Ombala

Member
They are delayed and the reasons for the latest delay is in the OP.

Game Consoles to replace Cable boxes and the connected home starts in 2014

Tivo suits (2 of them ) delayed DLNA CVP2 = vidipath and now with the 4K launch coming at the end of this year and the FCC DSTAC Downloadable Security allowing clear QAM tuners with Sony Passage, it's delayed till later this year from June. When though I don't know.

Can we really be sure its coming? I mean its all speculation right?
 
Jeff will this require new hardware to use h265 4k decoding? Does the ps4 have hdmi 2.0? Or will it be able to display 4k content?
 

driver116

Member
Blu-ray has the video encoded with a version h.264 then encrypted and written to a 2 layer disk. 4K blu-ray has the video encoded with a version of h.265 then encrypted and written to a 3 layer blu-ray disk with the Panasonic tweak extending the storage from 25 to 33 GB/layer.

The PS4, XB1 and AMD Kaveri use Xtensa accelerators for codecs like HEVC/h.265.

I got banned for this post (my first in the five years on NeoGAF) but it's a compilation of the proofs for the XB1 and the Xtensa accelerator. The OP is quoting a Forbes article stating the PS4 and XB1 original versions don't support being a 4K blu-ray player. One of the arguments was no HEVC support which all the cites I posted proved otherwise. The author is wrong and I had already posted 4 months before that they would be 4K blu-ray players and offered proof.

This would be understandable considering the Bluray drives in consoles can be updated. But what about general bluray players in the wild with no fw updates?

Jeff will this require new hardware to use h265 4k decoding? Does the ps4 have hdmi 2.0? Or will it be able to display 4k content?

This is why I don't think 4k would be able to run on normal bluray players. The missing codec is one thing, the other is the actual hardware requirement to decode h265 at a reasonable speed. Unless they can bundle the normal h264 version on the disc and switch between the two depending if the drive is BR or 4k.
 

hesido

Member
My theory is that jeff_rigby was bitten by a radioctive technical manual.

I lolled.. Nice..

The one thing important for me to have a 4K BluRay player, the cable / aerial has 0 effect on my life style (using satellite, there's no cable or HD aerial)
 
I think this article is relevant to the console media capabilities discussion: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-threatens-to-derail-4k-hevc-video-streaming/

(Sorry for bad formatting, on my phone.) This may greatly slow down adoption of 4k compatible services
That's confusing, is it a new patent holding group adding an additional cost for HEVC? Cost is tied to the hardware/Codec and for each PS4 would be .80. The same HEVC codec is used for 4K Blu-ray and streaming.
 

Blanquito

Member
That's confusing, is it a new patent holding group adding an additional cost for HEVC? Cost is tied to the hardware/Codec and for each PS4 would be .80. The same HEVC codec is used for 4K Blu-ray and streaming.

Yeah, let me pull the two paragraphs that are most important and then add my understanding:

This fragile situation is now jeopardized by HEVC Advance. HEVC Advance wants to ditch the free streaming that MPEG LA offered, and charge a royalty for it, even when the software and hardware being used to create the HEVC video are already licensed with the royalty paid. Moreover, unlike MPEG LA, which generally caps the licenses that must be paid, HEVC Advance's royalty scheme has no upper limit.

MPEG LA has no authority over the patents—it doesn't own them, it simply has a non-exclusive right to sell licenses to them—and companies with HEVC-relevant patents are under no obligation to join MPEG LA. If those companies are unhappy with MPEG LA's terms, they don't have to participate. It appears so far that at least five companies have decided to do just that: HEVC Advance claims General Electric, Technicolor, Dolby, Philips, and Mitsubishi Electric as members. Since announcing its price scheme on Wednesday, the group has so far not announced which patents its licenses cover. It's also asking other companies to join it, though not until August.

Under h264, only hardware manufacturers were charged for using the codec; streaming services such as Netflix weren't charged for its use.

However, certain companies that hold patents on pieces that are important to HEVC aka h265 have decided to not go this route and want to everyone who uses it, including streamers such as Netflix, to pay to use the codec. I didn't see any information on whether this would apply to UHD Blurays as well.

This could potentially mean either 1) higher prices for streaming UHD quality content, 2) higher subscription prices, and/or 3) abandonment and/or slower adoption of UHD streaming services until a better alternative is found (such as Google's VP9).
 
For those of you who have commented that the PS4 is only a game console. One company has created a Sony authorized media remote that can control 4 devices with a combination of Blu-tooth and Infra Red. Release date 10/27/15.



Hopefully it can send bluetooth channel change commands to the PS4 for USB or Network tuner as well as Vidipath client to Cable TV DVRs. One issue with the remote is no Input or source button.

When it is to be released is interesting 10/15/2015. GraphiteGB, a EU beta tester had a post with a picture of the remote about 6 months ago. So it's waiting for this selling season and/or for more media features to hit the PS4 which we all expect this October-November when 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge will be announced and for sale.

Sony skipped Gamescom this year in favor of the Paris show October 29th.

Combine the above with Sony feeling a need to release a placeholder DLNA/Player and it puts off the real DLNA player many months = October-November
 
This all makes me happy. Was wondering what the hold up was, though the a la carte TV channels was a nice reveal at E3. Expanding to 4K source through HEVC this holiday is very possible.

Already getting used to working with H.265 workflow and requirements after picking up a Samsung NX1.
 
Found this in one of my old posts. It ties to the OP on Sony Passage being used by Cable TV operators (MSOs). See also Playready ND cite in the OP

RE: Sony supporting DLNA CVP2=RUI=Vidipath

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/13896747 said:
This Software Project Manager is responsible for attending and representing Sony in multiple industry forums, such as working closely with MSOs (Cable TV providers) on Regulation and standardization for DLNA, HTML5 RUI, CVP2, HDMI, MHL, and other related technologies.

Solid experience in HTML5, DLNA, and UPnP
Solid knowledge of HDMI and MHL technologies
Solid knowledge of DLNA CVP2 certification process
Provide knowledge to W3C on testing and specifications related to HTML5
Solid understanding of DTCP encrypted MP4 DASH content
 
REPORT OF WORKING GROUP 4 TO DSTAC

The Commission’s instruction to recommend an approach that would allow consumer electronics manufactures to build devices with competitive interfaces and an approach under which MVPDs would maintain control of the user interface.
Due to the elimination of the cable card and the DSTAC recommending a downloadable security scheme it will be possible for nearly all CE platforms to easily access cable content even premium services.

The battleground is the control of the UI. Cable operators want total control of the UI and CE manufacturers want competitive interfaces. A surprise to me is that by definition a Vidipath platform must have a Cable TV UI. The hardware and software stack in a Vidipath TV or STB can support a CE competitive UI or a Cable TV UI.

Only with a Cable TV DVR would the PS3 and PS4 be a Vidpath client and that won't be impacted by the DSTAC recommendation to the FCC. With Cable TV USB or Network tuner a PS3 or PS4 would be able to have a competitive UI and offer services not part of the Cable TV UI. This is what is in question with the DSTAC recommendation to the FCC. (PS4 and XB1 are mentioned but not the PS3 in this paper)

The wording seems to indicate that Sony's Passage will be approved. TEE (Trusted Execution Environment) required. With Sony's Passage very low power/performance HDMI dongles can support a DSS.
 
DSTAC WG3 Report

DSTAC Mission of identifying “a not unduly burdensome, uniform, and technology- and platform-neutral software-based downloadable security system”.
Most of this paper is discussing the implementation of a security system both the hardware and software requirements.

The two proposals for a downloadable security scheme, both likely use Sony's Passage, are:

1) HTML5 <video> EME MSE (direct IPTV from cable modems) from the browser or an APP. An APP may be required for special features not supported by the browser. The example given was gesture control but Gesture and Voice control are or will be part of some browsers.
2) Vidipath (Used with Cable TV Gateways, first DVRs and then direct from a cable modem with DLNA)

Using HTML5 allows for competitive UIs while Vidipath does not.

A Vidipath certified STB or TV can support both. A Vidipath client uses HTML5 <video> EME MSE for cloud streaming (Playready) and parts of the same player and DRM for streaming in the home (DTCP-IP using WMDRM10 which is a subset of Playready versions lower than 3.0).

No Playstation platform's browser supports HTML5 <video> EME MSE at this time. They will and I'm sure everyone can now see that. Vidipath can be implemented now with a firmware update while HTML5 using a DSS (downloadable security scheme) requires waiting till 2016.
 

Tablo

Member
Is the new news about the Xbox One DVR features and streaming to other devices/storing content offline related to this new TV stuff?
Is it a transition from the original plan to supplant cable boxes, because this is still OTA only, or will the XB1 eventually support replacing your DVR within a couple years?
 
Is the new news about the Xbox One DVR features and streaming to other devices/storing content offline related to this new TV stuff?
Is it a transition from the original plan to supplant cable boxes, because this is still OTA only, or will the XB1 eventually support replacing your DVR within a couple years?
Cable TV is scrambled and until the FCC forces a Downloadable Security scheme that Consumer Electronics platforms can use, the Xbox1 can only be a DVR for Antenna TV. In 2016 this is supposed to happen and the Xbox 1 can then be connected to one of a number of network tuners I expect to start selling and offer DVR features while on Cable. While there is no rumor for the PS4, they should do the same and additionally offer something like Nasne as a higher end option.

When will we know the plan September 3, 2015. When is the FCC supposed to implement this plan, by 2016.

Connecting a USB or Network tuner to an Antenna using a XB1 or PS4 allows an older TV to support ATSC 2.0 features which are supposed to be passed through to Cable where you will need the same with an older TV on Cable. You either rent a box from a cable company or provide your own. (h.264 on sub channels, 1080P, S3D, NRT, XTV, Second screen)

Additional features like voice and gesture control, 4K blu-ray support, Digital bridge allowing streaming to other certified platforms in the home, playing games, IoT, Skype/ooVoo and more make the XB1 and PS4 more valuable than other STBs.

Blu-ray digital bridge (local copy on hard disk) and DVR functionality need large Hard disks. Gamestop is selling a 2 TB USB drive for the XB1 and 5 TB USB drives are on sale for $130. DLNA network servers now have a minimum size of 4 TBs. I.E. the market is getting ready for what's coming.

Xbox One DVR Doesn't Work Without External Hard Drive [Update]

1) I guess they don't want a fragmented drive for game play.
2) 1080P recording mentioned which is available only with ATSC 2.0
3) 2 TB Gamestop USB drive mentioned.
4) Xbox One's existing user interface will be completely redesigned with a new update, scheduled to arrive before the end of the year.
5) Another feature coming with the system update will be the option to transfer TV show files onto a Windows 10 tablet within the same home network. This means that the tablet will store the downloaded shows, and will be able to play them offline and on the go.

The last option is likely a Playready ND feature which should be supported by other platforms.
 
never stop posting Jeff_Rigby. Love your topics even though I might understand half of it at best.
Understanding half or even less is all most need. I give the detail and cites for those interested and to prove what's coming.

At this time few understand the impact of a common DRM and DLNA for all platforms in the home. Miracast will be a standard feature instead of a catch as catch can between handhelds and TVs/Game Consoles. With the Vidipath upgrade to the PS3, it should support Miracast and allow phones and tablets to control the PS3 DLNA player.
 
Jeff what do you do for a living?
Electronics tech - diagnostics/repair, software development in the 80's for the Atari ST... Sold one game to EA. Moderator for Compuserve in the 80's.

I'm 64 and this media thing for the Playstation platforms is an interesting puzzle which I find as rewarding as playing a game.
 
Turns out in this August 4th DSTAC video there are 4 proposals, two by WG3 I already posted on and two by WG4.

One of the WG4 proposals is an APP created by the cable company using Passage and Network tuners that sorta emulates a Vidipath Cable TV DVR. The Sony job posting now makes more sense in this case:

This Software Project Manager is responsible for attending and representing Sony in multiple industry forums, such as working closely with MSOs (Cable TV providers) on Regulation and standardization for DLNA, HTML5 RUI, CVP2, HDMI, MHL, and other related technologies.

Solid experience in HTML5, DLNA, and UPnP
Solid knowledge of HDMI and MHL technologies
Solid knowledge of DLNA CVP2 certification process
Provide knowledge to W3C on testing and specifications related to HTML5
Solid understanding of DTCP encrypted MP4 DASH content
Sony helping with standards to write the app for third party platforms.
 

J-Rzez

Member
There's no reason the ps4 couldn't read 4k discs or output 4k. The lasers were upgraded a while back so reading should be fine. A bare bones 1.4 can do 4k/30. Where limitations may show is with metadata things on 4k discs, data output from the chipset attached to it. HDR, color gamuts, frame rates. Then again who knows.

It's been suspect the new Sony TVs have a lower end chipset, but they're updating their 930/940c models via firmware to be able to handle HDR metadata. LG's OLEDs will be able to update to play HDR streamed content but not read disc metadata. It's a damn mess. So who knows what's actually going on. If anything would be able to "update", it would be a console like this though.
 
In the PS4 intellectual notice is Playready and WMDRM. WMDRM is for DTCP-IP in home streaming. Bonjour is also in the PS4 open source listing for discovering devices on the in-home network. The choice to use/include Bonjour rather than to just use UPnP points to more than DLNA server discovery.

Bonjour provides a general method to discover services on a local area network. The software is widely used throughout OS X, and allows users to set up a network without any configuration. As of 2010 it is used to find printers and file-sharing servers. Examples of applications using Bonjour:

iTunes to find shared music
iPhoto to find shared photos
iChat, Adobe Systems Creative Suite 3, Proteus, Adium, Fire, Pidgin, Skype, Vine Server, and Elgato EyeTV to share local recordings with multiple clients
Gizmo5 to find other users on the local network
TiVo Desktop to find digital video recorders and shared-media libraries
SubEthaEdit and e to find document collaborators
Contactizer to find and share contacts, tasks, and events information
Things & OmniFocus to synchronize projects and tasks across the Mac desktop and the iPad, iPhone or iPod touch
Safari to find local web servers and configuration pages for local devices
Asterisk to advertise telephone services along with configuration parameters to VoIP phones and dialers.
Software such as Bonjour Browser or iStumbler, both for Mac OS X, or Zeroconf Neighborhood Explorer for Windows, can be used to view all services declared by these applications. Apple's "Remote" application for iPhone and iPod Touch also uses Bonjour to establish connection to iTunes libraries via Wi-Fi.[3]

Bonjour and WMDRM point to Connected Home sharing of media and resources beyond what I envisioned for Vidipath. WMDRM isn't being used yet. The coming calendar can be used with "find and share contacts, tasks, and events information" on a PC or phone for syncing with other platform apps. Several of the above could be used with ooVoo and a coming DVR and Vidipath would use some of the other example features.

Codemirror is also in the PS4 open source listing: CodeMirror is a versatile text editor implemented in JavaScript for the browser.


I think we can expect many new features later this year...
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Nothing personal jeff, but you really could use to improve your writing style a lot. As it is, your posts are really difficult to discuss, due to them being largely just lists of technology names strung together. It is also way too difficult to try to parse out what point you're trying to make. To be completely honest, I'm not really sure that even you really know what you're talking about, since your writing style is rather reminiscent of business presentations with lots of buzzwords, but little substance.

To put it simply, you focus too much on what the pieces are, and not nearly enough on how they fit together.
 
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