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[astroturfing]

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot fathom how people consider Heavy Rain anything but poop. I spent most the game giggling at all the stupid shit. It's like all the character are in on some joke that I'm not. Seriously people, it's 'the Room'-quality writing
Don't get me started on the tedious extended QTEs and 'adventure game for dummies' sections.

ehh, compared to pretty much any other game the plot or characters or dialogue isn't that bad. i only cringed a few times, while games like Uncharted or Assassin's Creed have me cringing uncomfortably throughout the entire game.

at least Quantic Dream tried. most devs don't even attempt to make anything serious.

 

[Llyranor]

At least David Cage has the courage to tackle serious issues such as necrophilia in his games. Other devs are just cowards.

 

[RM8]

Games that tackle fringe subject matter will get a free pass because gamers crave new experiences. Cage's games are eccentric enough to almost sell on concept alone and that is saying something about the homogeneity of the industry. Gamers are on the edge of their seats to see what eccentric concept he's cooking. He creates enough controversy to make you perk up to see what his games are about. It's fine to judge them.

You're talking about roughly two million gamers who bought Heavy Rain. Sorry, it's not that big. It's somewhere around 30 million copies behind Mario Kart Wii, for example, so it's clear way more gamers want their game-ish games.

At least David Cage has the courage to tackle serious issues such as necrophilia in his games. Other devs are just cowards.

Or maybe necrophilia would be completely out of place in most games. I doubt the lack of a necrophile character in Street Fighter has anything to do with developer courage. Notice how this is not about game design anymore.

 

[Figboy79]

so I suppose internal alpha/beta testing doesn't give them any insight of how the finished product will be judged by the masses

When you're on the inside, and when you've been working on something for so long, you can lose sight of how outsiders will perceive the finished product. It takes fresh eyes to look at it at that point.

Your point seems to be coming from the perspective that the game is bad to begin with, when, I'm sure for Quantic Dream, they thought that their work on Heavy Rain was really good, and they were proud of it (as they should be, in my opinion).

It's not until some time has passed, and they've maybe moved on to a new project, or has managed to get some time away from it (a few months at least), that they can then go back to it, evaluate it, and take notes on how to improve it.

For their first PS3 game, I think Heavy Rain was excellent. In my opinion, it can only get better from here, if they continue to strive for improvement. It's not like David Cage has said, "Heavy Rain is the pinnacle of this kind of game, and there is no place to go from here." He appears to recognize the flaws of the design and narrative, and are working with his team to improve them. Why this is grounds for the typical Neo-GAF David Cage hate brigade to once again trash him is unclear to me.

I don't like Cliffy B, so I stay away from his games, not go to every thread about him and stink up the place (not saying you are, but many familiar faces in this thread have shown up in all the other Quantic Dream/Heavy Rain/David Cage threads and spout the same stuff each time).

Cage is certainly arrogant, but his goals and intentions for his games are reasonable and admirable. It's not like he's trying to push every single video game in existence to be like his games. There is plenty other approaches to game design that are more traditional than his. I don't see what the problem is.

 

[metalslimer]

David Cage needs stop writing his games. I don't mind his style of games, but I do mind when the writing is as terrible as his. Just get a competent writer and he can direct the game how he likes.

 

[RM8]

Cage is certainly arrogant, but his goals and intentions for his games are reasonable and admirable. It's not like he's trying to push every single video game in existence to be like his games. There is plenty other approaches to game design that are more traditional than his. I don't see what the problem is.

He has said in the past how traditional game concepts should be forgotten for being a thing of the past, that action games are meaningless and now that developers (who are not him) should grow up. He honestly deserves the heat he gets, in my opinion.

 

[KillerMan91]

It really sounds like that Sony is best publisher in the industry for developers.

 

[dragonbane]

He has said in the past how traditional game concepts should be forgotten for being a thing of the past, that action games are meaningless and now that developers (who are not him) should grow up. He honestly deserves the heat he gets, in my opinion.

He was misinterpreted many times. He recently said in a video interview, that he just doesn't like traditional games anymore, but he liked them in the past. He enjoyed GoW3 for example.
He also claims that these games should stay, since they have a market and add to the variety of gaming, he just hates the mainstream focus on it and thinks games can do more.
That's why he asks developers and publishers to grow up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwL5MIydP8s

What I say about the industry is often misunderstood. My point is exactly that there should be a game for everyone. There are people who like to shoot in games. Fair enough, there should be games for them.

You know, gaming, you got everything from Angry Birds to Call of Duty. And that's fine, that's the beauty of games.

I don't know if there is one genre definition of video games. As I said, there is little in common between Angry Birds and Call of Duty. Both are video games. Both are fun and enjoyable and successful. But at the same time, they are quit different in essence. What we try to achieve, I think, is also different from these two games. Not saying it's better or worse, it's just different.

In a perfect world, Beyond would launch and shut all the naysayers up. But, sadly, given Cage's history, that likely isn't going to be the case.
I hate to sound so goddamned negative about the guy, but his track record isn't exactly glowing.

I think the story has more potential this time with just one character that you know everything about and a plot introducing the paranormal aspect in the intro, rather then the last act. I think he improves a little with every game. Could take him a while, but eventually he will get there.

Im glad a guy like Cliffy B

The funny thing is, Cliffy B thinks HR is one of the best games for the PS3.

 

[Lime]

David Cage needs stop writing his games. I don't mind his style of games, but I do mind when the writing is as terrible as his. Just get a competent writer and he can direct the game how he likes.

Best suggestion to QD in this thread. I think the writing quality is often what puts people, including myself, off. The concepts and ambitions are admirable, but sometimes execution is everything.

 

[Replicant]

May I suggest an alternative interpretation:

Heavy Rain didn't do well enough to warrant a sequel, which is why Sony didn't ask for a sequel, and decided to ask Cage to try something else.

May I suggest stop pulling things out of your ass? If Sony didn't like the result, they wouldn't ask for more of the same. Do you seriously think "Beyond" will be more different than "Heavy Rain" to the point that it'll attract new audiences? Hell No. Sony knows what they're getting and if they were not happy with HR result, they'd have severed ties with QD. See: "Heavenly Sword" with Ninja Theory.

I've spent years as a student of storytelling, in all its forms, and I can say with confidence that David Cage is just plain bad. It's not a subjective claim, either, but one that would take a lot more in-depth discussion than I'm able to get in right now.

LOL. It always chuckles me when I see this kind of pompous douchebaggery. As if being a film/writing student makes you better than everyone else. Well come on then, show us your writing and see if it stands up to criticism.

 

[Lime]

LOL. It always chuckles me when I see this kind of pompous douchebaggery. As if being a film/writing student makes you better than everyone else. Well come on then, show us your writing and see if it stands up to criticism.

Replicant, you are better than this. The "if you're so well-educated, then why don't you do it yourself" argument is so tired.

Additionally, there is some merit to saying that one's statements are more probable to be correct if you have a better epistemic access to a knowledge field. It's the same reason why you listen to a biologist when she talks about biology, why you listen to a film critic rather than a Metacritic user, etc. So saying you have experience within (digital game) storytelling would probably grant you more experience and insight into what counts as good, flawed, or bad examples of storytelling. However, DocSeuss should probably have explained or identified more specifically what aspects of Cage's storytelling does not fit into what is deemed acceptable narrative standards (through an "interactive narrative lens")

I'm not trying to push some anti-QD agenda, as I respect their ambitions.

 

[dragonbane]

Best suggestion to QD in this thread.

Maybe the best, but a very hard one. David Cage thinks about the gameplay/set/interactions/permutations in the same moment, as he writes his games. His script usually contains both. He knows the technical and gameplay constraints of a game.

Now you have to find a writer that
-knows game design. Otherwise the story sounds good on paper, but is impossible to execute in a timely manner. Or it's jut not entertaining to play. Many games failed at this, but Cage's games always get released, because he is realistic with the size of his sets etc.
-is able to oversee the production for 3 or more years to make sure the story is properly understood by everyone
-is competent enough to write a consistent and good script 4 times the size of a movie, while creating branching paths and multiple endings (I don't think most writers are familiar with this concept)
-respect games, so he really tries his best


I think it's hard to find someone like this. It's probably even more harder to find someone like this in France, or someone with the ability to reallocate there immediately. Especially when your game is created in English first.

 

[metalslimer]

Maybe the best, but a very hard one. David Cage thinks about the gameplay/set/interactions/permutations in the same moment, as he writes his games. His script usually contains both. He knows the technical and gameplay constraints of a game.

Now you have to find a writer that
-knows game design. Otherwise the story sounds good on paper, but is impossible to execute in a timely manner. Or it's jut not entertaining to play. Many games failed at this, but Cage's games always get released, because he is realistic with the size of his sets etc.
-is able to oversee the production for 3 or more years to make sure the story is properly understood by everyone
-is competent enough to write a consistent and good script 4 times the size of a movie, while creating branching paths and multiple endings (I don't think most writers are familiar with this concept)
-respect games, so he really tries his best


I think it's hard to find someone like this.

What I'm saying is basically Cage and this writer could work together. Cage would still be in charge of the game and the overall outline of the story, but someone else would be doing the writing. So he could still control most of what you're talking about

 

[Lime]

Maybe the best, but a very hard one. David Cage thinks about the gameplay/set/interactions/permutations in the same moment, as he writes his games. His script usually contains both. He knows the technical and gameplay constraints of a game.

Now you have to find a writer that
-knows game design. Otherwise the story sounds good on paper, but is impossible to execute in a timely manner. Or it's jut not entertaining to play. Many games failed at this, but Cage's games always get released, because he is realistic with the size of his sets etc.
-is able to oversee the production for 3 or more years to make sure the story is properly understood by everyone
-is competent enough to write a consistent and good script 4 times the size of a movie, while creating branching paths and multiple endings (I don't think most writers are familiar with this concept)
-respect games, so he really tries his best


I think it's hard to find someone like this.

I see your point and I completely agree. But I am only theorizing, but what if said writer would be able to simply do some quality assurance with the draft versions of Cage & Co.'s writing output? I know I make it easier than it sounds, but just have a competent person familiar with the strength of the digital game medium to examine and improve upon some of the less quality stuff? Or am I being too idealistic?

 

[dragonbane]

I see your point and I completely agree. But I am only theorizing, but what if said writer would be able to simply do some quality assurance with the draft versions of Cage & Co.'s writing output? I know I make it easier than it sounds, but just have a competent person familiar with the strength of the digital game medium to examine and improve upon some of the less quality stuff? Or am I being too idealistic?

That is basically what I would suggest in Cage's case. He needs some editors, that know their stuff. He doesn't seem to be against something like this, as he allows his actors to have input on their characters, lines etc.

Ellen Page is more suited for this task than the amateur actors of HR, so maybe this even helped for Beyond.

What irritates and amuses me is that David Cage actually send his script to editors in Hollywood for their opinion. He received only positive response. So either the story of HR is amazing and important details weren't included in the final game, or the editors were lazy and didn't care about it "it's just a game, terrible writing is ok".

I think it's probably a combination of both.

 

[GhaleonQ]

What I'm saying is basically Cage and this writer could work together. Cage would still be in charge of the game and the overall outline of the story, but someone else would be doing the writing. So he could still control most of what you're talking about

I deleted a little rant here (setting an example here, Cage), so I'll just say it's odd that you'd not want him to do the primary thing that he does. You want him to map the game's flowchart and choose when people press X. ANYONE ON NEOGAF COULD DO THIS JOB RIGHT NOW.

Video games are the only medium where people think "original concept" is a major credit.

 

[dragonbane]

so I'll just say it's odd that you'd not want him to do the primary thing that he does.

Writing? That's not what he does primarily. He spends one year on the script and 3 years directing 160 actors and a team of 200 employees, managing his company and flying to every gaming related event possible for promotion.

It's hard work and I don't think anyone can do it. He is probably even the best at this particular job, as not many people are able to keep a non first party company alive over 15 years with only 3 games released that sold fairly well, but not amazingly well.

 

[MWS Natural]

Great interview, read the entire thing. Big Cage fan, can't wait for his next title.

 

[AniHawk]

David Cage needs stop writing his games. I don't mind his style of games, but I do mind when the writing is as terrible as his. Just get a competent writer and he can direct the game how he likes.

the best part is that it keeps getting worse. indigo prophecy starts relatively strong, then gets real weird. heavy rain starts awkward and gets much worse. and then kara was fucking awful throughout, and he only had to write for a few fucking minutes of dialogue. i think beyond: two souls is going to pretty much be the best worst thing ever.

 

[HK-47]

the best part is that it keeps getting worse. indigo prophecy starts relatively strong, then gets real weird. heavy rain starts awkward and gets much worse. and then kara was fucking awful throughout, and he only had to write for a few fucking minutes of dialogue. i think beyond: two souls is going to pretty much be the best worst thing ever.

I await the Something Awful lp with an anticipation that borders on obsession.

 

[dragonbane]

the best part is that it keeps getting worse. indigo prophecy starts relatively strong, then gets real weird. heavy rain starts awkward and gets much worse. and then kara was fucking awful throughout, and he only had to write for a few fucking minutes of dialogue. i think beyond: two souls is going to pretty much be the best worst thing ever.

I actually think the opposite. The start of IP is indeed better then HR, but I like everything else more in HR. It is a stupid twist, but at least it doesn't go batshit as IP did.
Kara is only a demo, so I don't really care about it. I think Kara's dialog is fine. The operator is obviously creepy on purpose.
Beyond seems to be mixing the strong parts of IP together with HR's better gameplay and adding decent voice actors on the top. I actually look forward to it.

Anyway, you can chill the fuck out. Cage just said in an interview, their next games are even going to be bigger, so it's too much work to write it alone. It always takes him a year and it's a very exhausting process, he doesn't want to do it anymore.
Since their resources are now big enough, Cage wants to organize things like a TV series from now on.
That's why he is currently building a team of writers for their future games. Then he becomes the showrunner and stays as the director, but most of the writing is done by other people.

 

[Riposte]

It's as ignorant as Asura's Wrath is being compared to Dragon's Lair series (latter is superior).

No way. Dragon's Lair is easily worse. One of the worst games made in retrospect. Asura's Wrath's problem is that is a wild badass shonen(though not inconsistently animated) anime trapped in a QTE-based game which simply doesn't mesh well (aside from a few "fuck yeah" QTE moments which would have been better spent in a more functional action game). Dragon's Lair on the other hand is painful to play. Whereas QTEs might be distracting to watching an anime in Asura's Wrath, at least isn't impeding you in a way that is just making you want to feed it quarter after quarter. It has no good music, no good choreography to match the good animation, no real narrative, no exciting scenes, etc, making the "playing a cartoon" angle totally pointless even when it released and games weren't nearly as developed. Asura's Wrath really has little going for it, but at least it has something going for it. Dragon's Lair is an unmitigated piece of crap, only remembered due to the novelty of it at the time. (Also Dragon's Lair is a disjointed collection of scenes that would maybe make up a 30-minute episode, whereas Asura's Wrath felt like a short season.)

 

[Boss Doggie]

No way. Dragon's Lair is easily worse. One of the worst games made in retrospect. Asura's Wrath's problem is that is a wild badass shonen(though not inconsistently animated) anime trapped in a QTE-based game which simply doesn't mesh well (aside from a few "fuck yeah" QTE moments which would have been better spent in a more functional action game). Dragon's Lair on the other hand is painful to play. Whereas QTEs might be distracting to watching an anime in Asura's Wrath, at least isn't impeding you in a way that is just making you want to feed it quarter after quarter. It has no good music, no good choreography to match the good animation, no real narrative, no exciting scenes, etc, making the "playing a cartoon" angle totally pointless even when it released and games weren't nearly as developed. Asura's Wrath really has little going for it, but at least it has something going for it. Dragon's Lair is an unmitigated piece of crap, only remembered due to the novelty of it at the time. (Also Dragon's Lair is a disjointed collection of scenes that would maybe make up a 30-minute episode, whereas Asura's Wrath felt like a short season.)

FYI when I refer to DL I usually go for the second game and Space Ace, not the boring first game. That one feels a bit more continuous with hints that are visible to read, at least in a sense that the QTE won't pause your game.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Writing? That's not what he does primarily. He spends one year on the script and 3 years directing 160 actors and a team of 200 employees, managing his company and flying to every gaming related event possible for promotion.

*kicks dirt* Maybe I shouldn't have deleted the exhaustive list.

I guess neither of us wants to pursue the line of thought, here, but I'd absolutely take issue with the above, too, without resorting to nitpicking.