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Iran PoliGAF: Presidential Debate

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Chrono

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I feel like jumping off a rooftop.

Was just listening to BBC world service and they talked to some Iranians. One was laila, in the UK. She said she would have (or did) vote for ahmedinejad - because he's not a mullah. She voted for the most extreme candidate because he doesn't wear a turban, even though he's more extreme than many who wore turbans. She also said he said what he felt, he's honest, poor, humble, etc... A straight shooter, if you will. OMG. This all started before an account from an Iranian youth in Tehran, and she seemed surprised at why they were protesting and didn't vote for ahmadinejad. Oh yeah, she also said she doesn't know Mousavi and that he lived in American. Holy shit. The guy was PM during the eighties and hasn't left Iran. This is like the Iranian equivalent of the Obama birth certificate thing.

The other schmuck against the protestors was some other Iranian (also outside Iran...) saying his parents live in a small village or city and they're going about their lives and there are no problems, this is just Tehran. Then he says this is all about rafsanjani and laila jumps in to agree. This is true to some extent, but wow to just discredit all those people out in the streets like that. There was also condemnation of the 'violence' even though it's the government fascist militia that's been doing it. Some burned buses and trash cans and motorcycles are the exception to hundreds of thousands if not a million that protested peacefully.

Fuck this really got on my nerves. Every once in a while I read or hear from people things so stupid, ignorant, and disgusting that I lose faith in everything.

Think though, the majority of people everywhere are this stupid. In a country like Iran, closed off and religious, wow... Liberal/secular Iranians have their work cut out for them.


effzee said:
Do you have a link?

A lot of misinformation and rumors are coming out of Iran, take everything with a grain of salt.
 
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I saw where the Iranian kid said only like 100,000 people voted against ahamnejad and those are the only one's protesting in the streets everybody else is a good honest iranian like him who did the right thing and voted for ahanmehajdfadkfjalkjdjfad
 

exarkun

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GSG Flash said:
I really hate Rafsanjani. He's not as moderate as he seems because he always flip flops on his views, basically he changes his views based on whatever it is that can make him the most money.

He's also the most corrupt person in Iranian politics, he's made his fortunes at the expense of the poor people of Iran, and he was a terrible president too with inflation reaching over 45% during his presidency.

So to see Rafsanjani do something like this makes me suspicious that he's doing it only for his own good, not the good of the nation.

He essentially will do anything to keep power. And this to me looks like he is jumping ship. He's like a cockroach, in that he could survive a political holocaust. And with todays silent march, things are motherfucking looking up.
 

Chrono

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ElectricBlue187 said:
I saw where the Iranian kid said only like 100,000 people voted against ahamnejad and those are the only one's protesting in the streets everybody else is a good honest iranian like him who did the right thing and voted for ahanmehajdfadkfjalkjdjfad

Where did you see that?

exarkun said:
He essentially will do anything to keep power. And this to me looks like he is jumping ship. He's like a cockroach, in that he could survive a political holocaust. And with todays silent march, things are motherfucking looking up.

Like it or not Rafsanjani is the only one who can stop this coup. With old corrupt pragmatists back in power there's still going to be a light at the end of the tunnel for reform later down the road, but if ahmadinejad has his way this might be it for Iran. Who knows where he'll take the country. :'(
 
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Sleeker said:
Is anything going to come of all this argy bargy?
Or is everything going to fizzle out and be the same

The only thing that's happened so far is the theocracy has lost significant power and the military has gained
 

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esbern

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its still absurd seeing all these people using Mousavi as some amazing patriot...the guy is a fucking criminal.
 

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esbern said:
its still absurd seeing all these people using Mousavi as some amazing patriot...the guy is a fucking criminal.

lesser of two evils'

edit: must say i dont know too much about him, but what i've seen, read and heard about him, he seems more "approachable" than Mahmoud Amahhusdbsgwejad.

i dunno, we'll see.
 

Souldriver

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So this thing basically keeps on growing? Good, I will feel so bad for all those people if things just die down and everything goes back to "normal". Something I still fear will happen.
 

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Reformist candidate Karoobi in in Topkhone Square, June 18, 2009.


Iranians crowd the Tehran bazaar on June 18, 2009. Thousands of supporters of Iran's defeated presidential candidate Mousavi for a day of national mourning honoring those who were killed during the previous days' rallies. (Getty)


A woman mourns at the grave of her loved ones who were killed during Monday's violence in Tehran, at the Behesht-e-Zahra cemetery just south of Tehran, Iran,


Demonstration in silence in Topkhone Square, Tehran, June 18, 2009.


The day of mourning in Topkhone Square, Tehran, June 18, 2009. A mourner holds up a photograph of one of the men who died during the riots.
 

Chrono

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esbern said:
its still absurd seeing all these people using Mousavi as some amazing patriot...the guy is a fucking criminal.

This isn't about Mousavi. Many of the people who elected him wanted an opening to a free Iran and he was the 'key' if you will. That's it.

Also, there's the possibility that he's different now. I read about one conference between supporters and some of his staff where his people said during the revolution we were all like ahmadinejad. I guess that's an improvement. Still needs to be on trial for the bloodshed during the 80s though.
 

Chrono

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124520276223621661.html

WHAT THE FUCK.

DO THOSE REPUBLICANS WANT A BLOOD BATH IN IRAN? Actually, that doesn't sound too far out for them.

I swear if I could kill somebody now it would be those miserable cunts itching to destroy the protests by covering it with American support.

That picture in the WSJ article might as well be propaganda from ahmadinejad.

MOTHERFUCKERS.


And bams isn't innocent either. He said there isn't a difference in policy between the two candidates. Again, WTF? Like this Iranian director/rep of Mousavi put it does Obama like it when people say hes no different than Bush? Fucking hell.

Chances are these protests wouldn't have happened if someone like McCain or Romney is President and not Obama, especially after the Cairo speech. Hell maybe they wouldn't have happened if even Clinton won. I don't know. Ultimately it's all up to the Iranians, even if a president McCain yelled at the top of his lung for an invasion of Iran and support of the protesters, it's still the Iranians' responsibility to not let these things shake their resolve and rally behind someone like ahamdinejad. It still would be their responsibility to reject fear and place their rights and the correct path for the country above their treasonous leadership. The blame would be on those that use foreigners as an excuse, those who believe them, and those who back down (however you can't blame anybody on this part).

Still, it really fucking pisses me off.

This is really scary. I don't see how this will end well. A red line has been crossed - this is what khamenie is thinking about now. They'll come out again to protests when newspapers are closed or candidates are disqualified by the guardian council. They'll never stop, the genie is out of the bottle. But he can't use force. He knows that... or does he? The reformists gotta calm down. Yeah, just back down. It's not worth it. Get some power in a deal, and call of the demonstrations. Whatever mess that's going to happen is not worth it. It's not just the army and revolutionary guard but the millions who want an 'islamic republic' and will see this as an attack on their religion and country. Civil war is not worth it, the mullahs will be gone one day, everybody knows this, this is not Saddam's Iraq or North Korea. But again, th genie is out of the bottle. So if the reformists calm things down now, will they have to do it again later this year? And the next? Will Khamenie just drink his tea and ignore them... until they evolve into 'death to khamenie' chants? This is it. I think this is it for the regime. It's over. It's going to be messy. Or maybe not. But it's over. A year, or two, or even three but that's it. June 13 2009 is the day theocracy died in Iran.
 

Stoney Mason

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Chrono said:
This isn't about Mousavi.

This although on the surface it's easy to think it is. He is mainly a spark though.

What is going on is clearly largely than Mousavi which is important and a hopeful sign. The best thing anybody could hope for is that this galavanizes a movement to slowly open up Iran. Whether Mousavi wins or loses is relatively unimportant in the long term and it is highly likely imo at least at this stage that Ahmadinejad will still be president coming out of this anyway,
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Jun 8, 2004
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Ive been running a proxy for a few days now. It's gotten some use actually.. so I guess I'm doing what I can.

Also, who the fuck knew Twitter might actually change the world.. like in a non Ashton Kutcher related way.
 

Chrono

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StoOgE said:
Ive been running a proxy for a few days now. It's gotten some use actually.. so I guess I'm doing what I can.

Also, who the fuck knew Twitter might actually change the world.. like in a non Ashton Kutcher related way.

Eh, twitter is just one tool some Iranians are using. Iran went through a revolution in 79 with no internet.
 

speculawyer

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Chrono said:
And bams isn't innocent either. He said there isn't a difference in policy between the two candidates. Again, WTF? Like this Iranian director/rep of Mousavi put it does Obama like it when people say hes no different than Bush? Fucking hell.
It was kind of a strange statement since there clearly are differences in policy. However, I think he doesn't really believe what he said . . . he just said it to make sure that people don't think America is taking a side.

I like the fact that they write so many of their signs in English so that we Americans and Europeans can understand what they are protesting about. Oh . . . and hot:


And it is pretty sad that they have to wear big sunglasses and face masks at a protest march . . . I assume it is an attempt to keep them anonymous so the police don't track them down later and harass them.
 

StoOgE

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Chrono said:
Eh, twitter is just one tool some Iranians are using. Iran went through a revolution in 79 with no internet.

It was huge early on though. At this point it's almost like they have given up on stopping the leaks.
 

speculawyer

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esbern said:
its still absurd seeing all these people using Mousavi as some amazing patriot...the guy is a fucking criminal.
As Chrono points out, it isn't so much about Mousavi as it is about freedom, democracy, and change from the hardline theocracy.

And 'patriot' actually is a good word for Mousavi . . . not in a way we would like, but he actually has been a long term insider of the Iranian revolutionary government. As has been pointed out, he was involved in the execution of political prisoners in the 80's. So he is a Iranian patriot.

But this is one of the reasons why this uprising could succeed. It is not some way-out there student leader. This guy has a long history of service in the Iranian government. And he has supporters in the upper echelons in the Mullahs. Various Mullahs have come forward and said that it is unholy to steal an election and have indicated they don't think the election results are honest.

The most damning information is the statistical and demographic analysis . . . for example, the vote % Ahmindidjdfjsdfjdjfad got was pretty much even across the country . . . thus even in the home town of Mousavi who is an Azeri (an particular ethnic group), the showed Mousavi getting his ass kicked. That doesn't make sense.
 

speculawyer

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Chrono said:
WHAT THE FUCK.

DO THOSE REPUBLICANS WANT A BLOOD BATH IN IRAN? Actually, that doesn't sound too far out for them.

I swear if I could kill somebody now it would be those miserable cunts itching to destroy the protests by covering it with American support.

That picture in the WSJ article might as well be propaganda from ahmadinejad.

MOTHERFUCKERS.
Check out Saxby Chambliss on tonight's Hardball . . . Chris Matthews was pointing out that it is best if we keep quiet & neutral on the current protests in Iran since we don't have much credibility considering the 1953 CIA-aided coup in Iran. Saxby responds with this:
Saxby Chambliss said:
That election was . . uh what? . . . almost 60 years ago now. The world has changed dramatically since then. And I dare say that you go up to any of those people in Tehran who are protesting in the streets and say 'Hey, what about the United States meddling in your election in the 50's" they would shake their heads and say "What are you talking about?" That's not what they are protesting about.
WTF? No wonder many of these old GOPers have such bad policies . . . they are not in touch with reality. The 1953 coup is a core element in the Iranian narrative of history. He just doesn't get it.
 

scorcho

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Chrono said:
And bams isn't innocent either. He said there isn't a difference in policy between the two candidates. Again, WTF? Like this Iranian director/rep of Mousavi put it does Obama like it when people say hes no different than Bush? Fucking hell.
Unless one believes in illuminati bullshit, there is no one above the US President deciding how shit is run. In terms of Iranian (foreign) policy there IS no difference in either Mousavi or Ahmadinejad since Khamenei ultimately defines it.

What the demonstrators and a lot of Westerners are projecting, and what Iranians are likely to get in a President Mousavi are two completely different things, and i can't help but think that unless Khamenei is removed by this protest as well, nothing of significance will change.
 

whytemyke

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I've been largely keeping this entire story on the back burner, hoping it turns out alright.

My understanding is that the White House is doing everything it can to tell everyone to STFU and let this thing play out on it's own, correct? I've seen obama tapdancing around some questions about it and that's my read of the land-- hope for the best, plan for the worst.

scorcho said:
Unless one believes in illuminati bullshit, there is no one above the US President deciding how shit is run. In terms of Iranian (foreign) policy there IS no difference in either Mousavi or Ahmadinejad since Khamenei ultimately defines it.

What the demonstrators and a lot of Westerners are projecting, and what Iranians are likely to get in a President Mousavi are two completely different things, and i can't help but think that unless Khamenei is removed by this protest as well, nothing of significance will change.

What I wonder, though, is the hit to his power that Khomeini will take if these protests turn out to have an actual effect on anything. That's a HUGE challenge to authority in Iran and it's hard to imagine that the establishment there is just looking at this and expecting everything to go back to the way it used to be.
 

scorcho

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Well that's the thing - do the protesters just want Mousavi installed as the new President (or at the very least a new, hopefully legitimate election), or are they looking to rip down the entire edifice of government? To the point - is this an uprising against the institution or the participants?
 

Chrono

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speculawyer said:
Check out Saxby Chambliss on tonight's Hardball . . . Chris Matthews was pointing out that it is best if we keep quiet & neutral on the current protests in Iran since we don't have much credibility considering the 1953 CIA-aided coup in Iran. Saxby responds with this:
WTF? No wonder many of these old GOPers have such bad policies . . . they are not in touch with reality. The 1953 coup is a core element in the Iranian narrative of history. He just doesn't get it.

Wow. Every fucking five year old in Iran knows about the CIA coup.

scorcho said:
Unless one believes in illuminati bullshit, there is no one above the US President deciding how shit is run. In terms of Iranian (foreign) policy there IS no difference in either Mousavi or Ahmadinejad since Khamenei ultimately defines it.

What the demonstrators and a lot of Westerners are projecting, and what Iranians are likely to get in a President Mousavi are two completely different things, and i can't help but think that unless Khamenei is removed by this protest as well, nothing of significance will change.

I don't think I remember him saying foreign policy or mentioning khameni, not sure though. I guess you could assume he was talkign about foreign policy, but still.
 

Chrono

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/06/090618_iran_jun18_sl.shtml

Checkout the Robert Fisk clip... He says nobody he talked to wanted the supreme leader out. Yeah, this is nothing. I thought it was about something much bigger, guess I was wrong. Or maybe I'm not, who knows. The question is what will the power holders do. How will they share power, what kind of deal they cut. Unless they make a mess out of the process these protests aren't really a threat to the regime.
 

exarkun

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scorcho said:
Well that's the thing - do the protesters just want Mousavi installed as the new President (or at the very least a new, hopefully legitimate election), or are they looking to rip down the entire edifice of government? To the point - is this an uprising against the institution or the participants?

Id say for now its just participants with the institution getting hit through association. In my Iran jadedness I would say we are still at least 10-15 years off from attempting to get rid of the ayatollahs and mullahs. And that is if Iranians don't begin to see change.
 

Arde5643

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Chrono said:
And bams isn't innocent either. He said there isn't a difference in policy between the two candidates. Again, WTF? Like this Iranian director/rep of Mousavi put it does Obama like it when people say hes no different than Bush? Fucking hell.
Interesting perspective from one of Sullivan's readers about this:

From Mousavi's perspective, being mildly put down by Obama shows that he's not a secret puppet of the US government. It lets him show his nationalist credentials. This defuses Supreme Leader Khamenei's main attack on the Islamist reformers.
 

Chrono

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^interesting..



Here's something that pisses me off...

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/ahmadinejads-rural-votes.html

What happened in the 2005 election was that people were disappointed Khatami didn't fulfill his promises and many reformists didn't vote. And there were also accusations of fraud.

Nate's a good guy, but really don't just go on making conclusions about a country you don't know anything about. I saw this linked on more than one dumb fucking neocon/conservative blog already.
 

jiggle

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31440649/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/



TEHRAN, Iran - Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, stated on Friday that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the "definitive" winner of the country's presidential election.

He said it was "Iran's enemies" who made charges that the presidential election was rigged to harm the ruling system.


"They want to cast doubt on this establishment and create panic among the people," Khamenei said, placing blame on the "Zionist," British and American media.


After the June 12 elections, Khamenei approved the balloting results as a "divine assessment" and urged the Iranian people to pursue their allegations of election fraud within the limits of the cleric-led system.




:lol@the GOP that wanted Obama to meddle more
 

Chrono

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^So I guess ahmadinejad is staying. >_>

Now here's something disturbing:

"The Iranian presidential election evolved after decades but now is triggering so many protests and riots; I am not sure how the liberal wings of the party would think? Use the army. Whoever fights against the government should be killed. There are so many people in Iran so killing several hundreds of thousands is not a big deal. What does the army do? Foolish (Iranian government)."

How does one respond to something like that? Unbelievable.
 

Malleymal

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hahahah the same media that has Piss poor coverage of this whole situation? unless by Zionists, he really means Iranian people that are trying to get the word out... then that makes full sense
 

Malleymal

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quadriplegicjon said:
where are people getting this from?

CNN has a whole section devoted to this: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2009/iran.elections/

and it has basically been their top story since it happened: http://www.cnn.com/


I am not talking about now... they are saying that we started this whole fiasco over there.... when this first started though, I couldnt find anything on tv to follow it. Now yea you see it on the news, but thats after days of protest and people fighting to get the word out from inside the country..
 

Particle Physicist

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Malleymal said:
I am not talking about now... they are saying that we started this whole fiasco over there.... when this first started though, I couldnt find anything on tv to follow it. Now yea you see it on the news, but thats after days of protest and people fighting to get the word out from inside the country..


oh.. i see.. yeah. there was some coverage in the beginning, but it was largely ignored.. until things got crazy..

i don't really watch tv news though.. so i can't comment much on that.
 
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