Is it unrealistic to ever expect The Elder Scrolls or Fallout to have great combat mechanics/physics?

#1
I love both series and most of what they bring to the table, but the elephant in the room with both of them (at least for me) is that the combat in both games kinda suck if I'm going to be blunt. The enemies are practically massless as in when you shoot them or slash them they don't react realistically, the weapons feel like they have no weight. TES is especially bad in this regard and combat becomes incredibly lame and redundant. Every entry I hope it's improved and it really isn't all that much.

Is it hopeless to ever expect those games to have a major combat upgrade or is this what we'll just have to deal with as long as we enjoy playing those Bethesda titles?
 
#2
If other open-world games can do it, so can TES/Fallout. Horizon, Witcher 3 and NieR: Automata all come to mind, to name but a few.

Now, whether or not Bethesda will actually put in the time and money to build a mechanically-sound combat system is another question. Their MO for those games has always been quantity over quality, and who can say if that'll change?
 
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#4
It's Bethedsa, they're don't give a damn about realistic combat and mechanics and more importantly about making completely new engine from the ground up and reworking the whole fucking process of making their goddamn games which are absolutely always full of bugs, glitches etc. They're don't care about any of this and might as well release pre-alpha version and let people fix their shit for them for free and while also earning money from all of this. In other words i really don't like Bethesda as developer, cuz they're lazy fucking bastards who do not want to change anything while having absolutely everything to make it work.

The absolute last amazing game from them that i've played was TESIII which was 16 years ago and i think that'll be the last.
 
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#5
Fallout 4 improved the gunplay so i find that kind of hopeful going into Elder Scrolls 6

but going way back to Arena combat in Elder Scrolls has always been, essentially, DPS checks with a few manual inputs. intricate first person combat was never particularly its forte, so it'd have to have some ground up re-imagining to be something all that great. i think the main problem with modern ES combat is lack of feedback, if they could improve on that you could probably gloss over how vapid the mechanics can be at times
 
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#6
Soulsborne-like combat would do wonders to this series. I’m sure I’m not the first to ever think of this.
I play Bethesda games in first person (well, mostly, with FO4 I did spend a fair bit in third person, it felt better there - I find the game more "shootery" and ended up wishing for a more robust cover mechanic), and I don't really see Soulsborne-like working that well in first person.
 
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#7
I think there's a balance to achieve really. Ive never considered the combat mechanism or physics to be an issue in these games but I've never played them with that being a particular focus, maybe moreso in F4 than previous iterations. That said, I totally get what you mean and noone plays these games without experiencing something going ridiculously wrong.

I believe they are building a new engine, but have already said it won't be used for their next title (I watch MrMattyPlays for this kind of stuff). Animations are another big issue for them.

Ultimately though if I want super real combat I'll play a different kind of game, but that's not to say they shouldn't be trying to improve.
 
#8
If other open-world games can do it, so can TES/Fallout. Horizon, Witcher 3 and NieR: Automata all come to mind, to name but a few.
Those are 3rd person games. TES/Fallout are designed (and mostly played) as 1st person games. Something completely different.

I think the combat is good enough. They should focus on writing and the RPG mechanics and not flashy combat.
 
#9
Those are 3rd person games. TES/Fallout are designed (and mostly played) as 1st person games. Something completely different.
Completely different on a mechanical level, perhaps, but you seem to be implying that being first-person precludes a game from having competent combat mechanics, which is patently untrue.

Just look at something like Chivalry. And no, being an open world game would not prevent bethesda from doing something like that if they designed around the concept.

The assertion of time + money = quality still stands.
 
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#12
I like Bethesda's games exactly how they are. If you don't like their combat, maybe they just aren't for you? If there's a ton of other games you like, play those instead.

Soulsborne-like combat would do wonders to this series. I’m sure I’m not the first to ever think of this.
And that would be the #1 way to get me to never buy another game in the series. Fuck Dark Shit
 
#13
I like Bethesda's games exactly how they are. If you don't like their combat, maybe they just aren't for you? If there's a ton of other games you like, play those instead.



And that would be the #1 way to get me to never buy another game in the series. Fuck Dark Shit
Wow what a childish response. Dark Shit? Dude...

What exactly do you like about TeS combat? You like them exactly how they are? So you like wildly flailing your sword in the hopes of hitting your target? You like weirdly jumping up a mountain? I really like the TeS games but let's not act like they are perfect bro.

Just because someone wants to have a discussion on how to improve the TeS combat doesn't mean 'the games aren't for him'. What a strange response.
 
#14
"Ugh I hate swinging this bat at this ball, why can't I pick it up and run with it instead"

"Gee maybe baseball isn't for you, have you tried football?"

Mod edit: removed caps rant. Didn't add to the overall point.

One can make the case in a more reserved manner. The slower more deliberate combat of Morrowind for example, has been iterated over and largely been superceded for the more light and agile, yet clippy and weightless current combat system.

The point is that not every game is for everyone but fans of a game will be drawn to discuss and critique the elements of their favourite titles that could do with slight improvements. There's room for the view point that you think it's fine contrasted against those who would like to see small QoL changes and even those who want massive changes.

Somewhere in the middle will be an idea that elevates the game mechanics (BOR)
 
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#16
I like Bethesda's games exactly how they are. If you don't like their combat, maybe they just aren't for you? If there's a ton of other games you like, play those instead.
This is an Ergo Decedo or 'Traitorous Critic' fallacy.

"Gee maybe baseball isn't for you, have you tried football?"
As is this.

You should be addressing the argument rather than the disposition of the critic- why should bethesda not seek to improve their combat? It's not immune from criticism.

A lot of time is spent engaging enemies during the core gameplay loop of a TES game. It would be nice if it was a little more than 'click on the guy to compare numbers until someone's bar is gone'.
 
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#17
"Ugh I hate swinging this bat at this ball, why can't I pick it up and run with it instead"

"Gee maybe baseball isn't for you, have you tried football?"

"SO CHILDISH UGH. FORGET THE MILLIONS WHO PLAY BASEBALL WITH THESE RULES, THEY NEED TO REVAMP IT FOR ME!"
Maybe you can try to actually respond to my post with some substance?
 
#19
I thought the first person shooting worked fine in Fallout 4.

As far as the swordplay in Skyrim goes, it could be better but maybe the problem lies in it being first person?

Where I think Bethesda really needs to work though is writing, Fallout 4 was embarrassingly mediocre compared to New Vegas, although it WAS still a cut above Fallout 3, so maybe there's hope.
 
#21
A huge part of what makes the combat great in those has to do with careful level design and enemy placements. I can't picture an Elder Scrolls game ever achieving that.
Are you telling me those draugrs spawning from identical looking crypts are not carefully designed/placed? The mind, it boggles.
 
#23
We saw improvement in Skyrim over Oblivion. We saw great improvement in Fallout 4 over 3 or New Vegas. I see no reason that it won't continue to improve, however, their engine is what is holding the combat back to an extent. The mods addition on Xbox and PS4 have allowed for that to improve slightly, but the overall engine needs a major update to combat and NPC animations.


As said above, I would like to see them go towards Souls-like combat. More weighty and visceral and very dangerous with some major penalties for dying.
 
#24
Great physics would greatly limit the amount of platforms they could release games for. It would be impossible for Skyrim kettle or Skyrim hairdryer to exist in the nearby future.
 
#26
I like Bethesda's games exactly how they are. If you don't like their combat, maybe they just aren't for you? If there's a ton of other games you like, play those instead.

And that would be the #1 way to get me to never buy another game in the series. Fuck Dark Shit
I like them too, I just believe it can be improved with the best combat around imho. We all are entitled to our opinion of course, let’s keep it civil ;)
 
#27
Sadly, yeah, it's unrealistic at least for the Elder Scrolls
First person melee combat in general seems to be really difficult to get right. About the only game that comes to mind where I found it enjoyable was the new Shadow Warrior (haven’t played the sequel) but I don’t know how enjoyable it would remain in a 40+ hours RPG or how well it can be adapted to different weapon types (I have to assume it’s easier to get the combat right when you can focus on a single weapon as is the case in Shadow Warrior).
Based on my past history with Bethesda games I just don’t see them being the dev that finally gets first person melee combat right. I expect Skyrim combat with slight improvements.

So my realistic hopes (not that I think they’ll do it, but I think they could if they wanted to) is no more enemy scaling which I think undermines the sense of progression and just doesn’t make sense (why am I running from bears when I’m taking down ancient dragons on a regular basis?), and better loot that focuses on weapons and armour being different instead of better. Because there’s nothing less exciting than finding a hidden cave, taking down a powerful optional boss that’s stronger than anything you have encountered in the main story…. And then be rewarded with a crap sword and an armour that’s about as good as the one you were using 20 hours ago
 
#28
Yes, because Bethesda. What really worries me though, is that with the Creation Club BS we are less likely to get mods that might actually fix the combat.
 
#30
What's weird about old school stealth game at its finest? Too many 1-2 hour long cut-scenes?
in MGS 3, you aim in First person by pressing Triangle, yeah, that's not weird at all

all i'm saying is MGS series had mediocre gameplay, what made it a masterpiece is the story

but in MGS V it's the other way around, the gameplay itself is a masterpiece
 
#31
all i'm saying is MGS series had mediocre gameplay, what made it a masterpiece is the story
Gameplay wasn't mediocre, it just wasn't as good as in MGS 4 even and nope, i'm not talking about full on shooting and action. but more like evolved stealth with included stealth suit for example which can blend you with the enviroment. Hell, MGS3 even had survival elements which still no one even bothered to copy or emulate today.

Hell, i can even safely say that i play and replay MGS games not only cuz of story and everything related to it, but cuz there's no other games like them at all and i enjoy playing them - MGS1-4.
 
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#32
I think it's entirely possible to do, they would just have to make that their focus. I don't think the combat needs to be super deep or complex either, nor does it need to be as punishing or reaction-driven as Dark Souls. The Elder Scrolls games are meant to be a be anyone/go anywhere/do anything sim, so it makes sense that their combat would be a little broader/looser than a fighting game or even something like the Witcher, where the main character's weapons are pretty well defined. They can do better, however, and it should be totally possible to deliver a simple but satisfying hack and slash system that is difficult enough to be satisfying, but not so difficult that it would scare new players away.

There are many ways to do this, but, if you put a gun to my head and asked me how best to make that happen, I'd say shift away from the die roll/damage numbers tabletop roots and in a little more action-oriented direction. No more health bars, no more damage sponge enemies, and area-specific damage. Every unprotected hit should have the potential to wound or kill, and equipment type should matter more than character stats when it comes to an effective attack (though stats would, of course, govern what equipment you can wield and how effectively you wield it). I guess I'm proposing is Monster Hunter combat by way of Hotline Miami, and while that may seem like quite a change, I actually think it would fit better with the Elder Scrolls' go anywhere/do anything core mission, than their current combat which feels like marshmallows whaling away at one another with baseball bats--may he with the bigger bat and and the stronger arm gradually whittle his enemy's red bar down to zero first! Not exactly thrilling.

But that's just me, and I'm an odd duck.
 

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#33
I actually really enjoy the combat in Bethesda games. Not because it's exceptional or anything, but because I make the best of what the engine will let me do...

Gameplay wasn't mediocre, it just wasn't as good as in MGS 4 even and nope, i'm not talking about full on shooting and action. but more like evolved stealth with included stealth suit for example which can blend you with the enviroment. Hell, MGS3 even had survival elements which still no one even bothered to copy or emulate today.

Hell, i can even safely say that i play and replay MGS games not only cuz of story and everything related to it, but cuz there's no other games like them at all and i enjoy playing them - MGS1-4.
Yeah I gotta agree with this. Except MGS4 sucked lol. But MGS 1-3 had amazing and unique gameplay.
 
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#34
It's actually pretty good in VR, but the issue is having the bigger/heavier weapons swinging just as fast as the quick/light weapons since there's no weight or feedback taken into account. If they created a system where you had to control your max swing speed to get the proper damage out of each weapon, it could be pretty compelling.
 
#35
I'm glad somebody brought this up. I am one of those people that don't understand how people are ok with the graphics of Fallout and Elder Scrolls AND bad hit detection, animations, dialogue and voice acting and overall mechanics. I get that there's a history here and a following that loved these games, but if you look at the evolution of the games, I would say very little has been done to revolutionize the combat, story telling or bugs. It's to the point where modders are taking up the helm to do the things the Bethesda simply couldn't be bothered with.

I want to see an overhaul of the engine...or a brand new engine altogether. It's time for Elder Scrolls and Fallout to get the God of War treatment.
 
#37
It would be nice if this area received some attention, but honestly for me, these games are more than the sum of their parts and work so well because of how everything fits together. I love games that have great mechanics, and as much as it would be nice to see implemented in these games, it's honestly not essential, for me at least. Don't get me wrong though, I'll happily take it if offered, but the lackluster mechanics have never impeded my enjoyment within their worlds. Not that it's an excuse for them, but that's the way I feel.
 
#38
As long as Bethesda is in charge and using the gamebroken engine(inb4 creation engine is not gamebryo) don't expect big improvements in the game's graphics,physics and overall polishment(this is bethesda we're talking about). They will increase the scale and dumb down the gameplay which is what they always do.
 
#39
Oblivion had some impressive gore and combat mods, I don't think Skyrim ever reached the same level.
It's not Dark Messiah, but I like the combat of Oblivion and Skyrim. Melee, ranged, magic - it all works for me.

Fallout's real time combat is rubbish. VATS is entertaining for the slow-motion gore. However, I hate fighting non-humanoid enemies in these games. VATS for giant insects and animals bores me to death, but I can explode humans all day long...

I'm afraid another engine would lose the physics. The engine feels like a relic of the mid-2000s when there was a bigger focus on interactivity than today. I'll never get tired of physics.
 
#40
I think the physics could be fixed but I kinda feel that the combat would still be fairly weak just due to too many variations of weapons/style to monster attacks.
 
#41
Well, at least the combat is steadily improving with each new Bethesda game.

If their next game has the same amount of improvement as Skyrim had from Oblivion (or Fallout 3 to Fallout 4), I wouldn't be too mad.
 
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#45
I'm not saying I don't like Bethesda games, I'll still buy them and enjoy them even with combat as-is, but I do think if they ever upgraded that aspect of their games one day, it would take these franchises to another level. I don't go all the way back to the beginning, but I started each series with their 2nd installments, and having played each of them, the minimal improvements in combat become more and more apparent. One of the things I've felt about open world RPGs like these is that at least for me, there comes a point where you just get tired of wandering around aimlessly and exploring becomes redundant, and typically when that happens, fun and robust combat systems can take some of the burden off. It happened in The Witcher 3, it's why I never got bored of it. But I couldn't even finish Skyrim, because once exploring and going through caves and dungeons became monotonous, going around fighting and killing things provided no relief because the combat just sucks.

But that's just my take.
 
#46
This is a complaint I see a lot, and I really do not agree with that.

Many times I saw people saying they would like combats like Dragon's Dogma or Dark Souls in Skyrim, and this is really something I don't want to see.
I'm not sure how to explain my point of view on this, but for me, no matter how you like them or not, the Bethesda Fallout / TES games are quite unique, they really have something special that I can't find in other games. The immersion, the way you interact with the world, the quests, the combats, the overall game design of these games, they just have some... comfy feeling I can't explain.

I'm not saying they are the best thing, but as far as I'm concerned, I love how these game play, like I said, there is some comfy feeling when I play these games, probably due to the fact of how familiar we are with them now and how "master" you are of the games; They are not, at least for me, games I play for challenge or intense combat, and I actually really like being able to decide of the outcome of every situation that happen in these games. I like to be in control in these games and telling the game how to evolve, instead of some situations / outcome being decided by how well I did during a combat or something like this.

It may seem a bit paradoxal because I'm someone who actually really like gameplay-focused games, I'm a big fan of Bayonetta, Furi and games like that, and I love some challenge, but it's really not what I look for in Bethesda RPGs.
For me they are more like some sandboxes with stories where I feel a bit like an almost-god in control of mostly everything, making my own world, and even more on PC with modding and such.
I think there are enough more standard action rpg games out there to let TES and Fallout be their own things, if they have so much success it's probably for a reason.

I mean sure, they can improve the combats (And they really did with Fallout 4, I thought the gunfights really good and don't have much complaints about them), but I think they still need to remain a bit like how they are, not completely changed to play like some other games.
 
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#48
Bethesda has always been behind the curve when it comes to cutting edge animations, combat mechanics, etc, as their focus is primarily world building, size of world, narrative, etc.

In fact as they've begun to focus more and more on presentation, the rest has suffered. Fallout 4 is just an action-shooter with some rpg elements and Skyrim has 1/10th the RPG elements and questline quality that Morrowind had.

I guess we all just want the best of everything every time. But time, money and talent must come together and create a synergy that leads to the best experience from an economical standpoint. Emphasis here will make elements suffer over there, etc.

Sometimes the most focused games end up being the most balanced and pleasing. But Bethesda wants to create a big open world where so much is happening. So they usually have to opt for an unfocused, unbalanced approach to deliver on this. It would take decades and cost hundreds of millions to deliver on every shifting goalpost desire 100%. That's called development hell. That's called Star Citizen. Don't do it kids.
 
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#49
I liked the shooting in Fallout 4, but would've liked better melee combat in Skyrim.
The bigger problem for me in both those games is the LACK of combat. I like to be challenged and to have stuff to kill when I am wondering around - especially once I am high level and have completed the story etc. Both games felt like a bit of a ghost town to me, at that point. Ideally, I'd like to see more enemy numbers and have them re-spawn every 5 mins or so.
 
#50
I bought Dark Souls because it came out a month before Skyrim which I couldn't wait to play. I wasn't expecting much from DS but I thought it would be a decent time filler until Skyrim. I was very wrong. DS killed Skyrim for me. I couldn't believe how toy Skyrim was next to DS. It took about 2 years for me to be able to play the game without laughing and switching it off. I've never finished the game and I don't think I ever will which is a shame because I like the world and I like the characters but the combat is so toy I can't do it.