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[Knitted Knight]

Today Sony has revealed that they use an exotic and innovative liquid metal TIM* to cool its APU**. As a result, despite high clock frequency on both the CPU/GPU (3.5 Ghz/2.23Ghz***); the system has been reported to run cool and silent, even in a 30 degree Celsius room while running graphically demanding next-gen games like GodFall - cool to the touch even (link here). The adoption of this solution is the result of over 2 years work by Sony.

There are many benefits to using Liquid Metal as TIM, and you can read on benchmarks discussing its performance on some Intel processors @ this link. In laymen terms, with liquid metal TIM you see a significant improvement in cooling on high frequency operating regimes (which includes overclocking, and stock high-clocked processing units). This in turn allows you to pack a lot of power hungry, high heat inducing processing on compact consumer electronic shells that require the small form factor as a selling point (not to mention, smaller everything is always preferable as long as good performance is maintained).

There is a wealth of literature on this subject. So to not dwell deeper and to leave plenty of room for discussion (and member additions) I leave the floor to you. Feel free to opine. But before I do I leave you with a poll and a few questions.

Are we witnessing a new era in the methods used to cool high performance hardware in small, compact form factors?
Do you believe Sony leading the charge in the console space is a positive industry-wide development? Should others in the console industry follow? Will this slowly affect the PC market as well?
Were you caught by surprise by the announcement? Despite the rumors?
Are you scared by the new tech? Fear of failure? Fear of its success? (it's ok ).

------------------------------
*TIM: Thermal Interface Material.
**APU: An accelerated processing unit (APU) is a microprocessor that combines the central processing unit (CPU) with the graphics processing unit (GPU) on a single computer chip.
*** Variable Frequency.

Nowcry

 

[Jmatt110]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

 

[sircaw]

Humm, super interesting,

they said two years in the testing, i am 100% confident this is the new way forward.

Plus early reports from the console say it's so silent and cool. Will it last say seven years, i don't know but i am surely as hell going to try and find out.

 

[01011001]

liquid metal brings with it a lot of issues.
for example, you have to make sure it's not leaking and you have to make sure it's not evaporating/replace it when evaporation is becoming an issue.

that is simply not an attractive solution for basically any normal PC user or any normal consumer product.

 

[Dodkrake]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

Nice rebuttal of the topic here, very thoughtful. Care to share why it's not commonly used, and compared to the PS5 solution? I have a hint, but won't say anything for now.

Also, here's an interesting article for you:

Asus Will Use Liquid Metal Thermal Paste in Its Laptops - ExtremeTech

Asus will adopt liquid metal thermal paste on its Intel 10th Gen laptops, to improve cooling temperatures -- and help handle the heat.

www.extremetech.com

Edit: Straight from the source

ROG Announces Rollout of Liquid Metal for Entire 2020 Intel Laptop Lineup | News｜ASUS USA

--> Fremont, California (April 2, 2020) - ASUS Republic of Gamers (ROG) today announced the rollout of Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut liquid-metal thermal compound for all 2020

www.asus.com

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

I am curious to know what the down sides are. Not being sarcastic, I like to know what are the flaws?

 

[Yoboman]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

A lot of the reasons why you wouldnt use it in a PC can be mitigated by mass production efficiencies

 

[CeeJay]

Time will tell which console came up with the better thermal solution.


Who knows, maybe they will both be equally good and we don't see any significant failures over the course of the gen.

 

[Warnen]

The amount of T1000s you would have to hunt down for that much liquid metal will make them go extinct if it was used on everything you savages!

 

[Knitted Knight]

The amount of T1000s you would have to hunt down for that much liquid metal will make the go extinct if it was used on everything you savages!

Man finds a way. Always.

 

[tryDEATH]

Nice rebuttal of the topic here, very thoughtful. Care to share why it's not commonly used, and compared to the PS5 solution? I have a hint, but won't say anything for now.

Also, here's an interesting article for you:

Asus Will Use Liquid Metal Thermal Paste in Its Laptops - ExtremeTech

Asus will adopt liquid metal thermal paste on its Intel 10th Gen laptops, to improve cooling temperatures -- and help handle the heat.

www.extremetech.com

Edit: Straight from the source

ROG Announces Rollout of Liquid Metal for Entire 2020 Intel Laptop Lineup | News｜ASUS USA

--> Fremont, California (April 2, 2020) - ASUS Republic of Gamers (ROG) today announced the rollout of Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut liquid-metal thermal compound for all 2020

www.asus.com

https://www.overclock.net/threads/liquid-metal-in-a-laptop-1-year-on-and-temps-are-terrible.1730980/

 

[MDSLKTR]

 

[skneogaf]

You do realise it's not a new thing?

Thermal grizzly sell it if you want to buy some.

In fact some people on this very site replaced their ps4 thermal paste with some.

Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut Liquid Metal

Conductonaut is a liquid metal for applications with a high degree of efficiency in the range above 8° Celsius.

www.thermal-grizzly.com

 

[Dodkrake]

https://www.overclock.net/threads/liquid-metal-in-a-laptop-1-year-on-and-temps-are-terrible.1730980/

Are you honestly comparing machine applied liquid metal cooling with an engineered solution that took 2 years to perfect with some guy at home using liquid cooling on a "stock" system?

 

[Bryank75]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

What's the reason you think it's not used as much?

 

[LazyParrot]

PC has had liquid metal for years. You can easily build a PC that's more silent than a PS5 using just regular thermal paste, so it's never going to become the norm.

 

[GHG]

https://www.overclock.net/threads/liquid-metal-in-a-laptop-1-year-on-and-temps-are-terrible.1730980/

Are you seriously linking another forum as a reference for this?

Do you even know what conductonaut is?

To answer the question in the OP, it depends on the application and how the solution is applied.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I personally dont think that every system needs it. It's a really good TIM for systems that run hot so the PS5 needs it due to the high clocks. But other systems that run at lower clocks shouldn't need it and a good heat sink will be enough for them.

With that said Liquid Metal is very important to those that love running high clocks in their systems. It's where I believe it will get the most use.

 

[Portugeezer]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

Just like SSD.

 

[Birdo]

It will certainly be a little more tricky for people to refurb them.

Although I've seen TronixFix put Liquid Metal in a One X

 

[LazyParrot]

What's the reason you think it's not used as much?

Even smaller PC cases are larger than a PS5 and typically feature room for intake and exhaust fans, as well as separate heatsinks and fans for both the CPU and GPU, which makes cooling much less of a problem, even if you just use regular thermal paste. Using liquid metal provides no discernible benefit unless you have one of those old Intel CPUs where the die wasn't soldered to the heat spreader, and even there have to you void your warranty and delid the thing in order to get any use out of it.

Just like SSD.

Even with liquid metal, PS5 is still going to get hotter than the components in an average gaming PC.

 

[Jmatt110]

Nice rebuttal of the topic here, very thoughtful. Care to share why it's not commonly used, and compared to the PS5 solution? I have a hint, but won't say anything for now.

Also, here's an interesting article for you:

Asus Will Use Liquid Metal Thermal Paste in Its Laptops - ExtremeTech

Asus will adopt liquid metal thermal paste on its Intel 10th Gen laptops, to improve cooling temperatures -- and help handle the heat.

www.extremetech.com

Edit: Straight from the source

ROG Announces Rollout of Liquid Metal for Entire 2020 Intel Laptop Lineup | News｜ASUS USA

--> Fremont, California (April 2, 2020) - ASUS Republic of Gamers (ROG) today announced the rollout of Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut liquid-metal thermal compound for all 2020

www.asus.com

A lot of the reasons why you wouldnt use it in a PC can be mitigated by mass production efficiencies

I didn't say it was a bad thing for the PS5, it's great actually. And applying it during manufacturing of devices like a console or laptop (great use case for it) is very different to applying it yourself to your own CPU.

I am curious to know what the down sides are. Not being sarcastic, I like to know what are the flaws?

For the DIY PC space It's more annoying to work with compared to regular thermal paste (application and cleanup are harder), and the benefits generally don't outweigh the effort required.

It's much better suited for a device that won't have it's heatsink removed (like a console or laptop) than someone doing their own PC upgrades.

 

[Hendrick's]

Seems like there is a lot more engineering required to ensure the liquid stays in place, because if it does not the system's toast. Is that worth the gains in thermal transfer? Remains to be seen.

I am curious to know what the down sides are. Not being sarcastic, I like to know what are the flaws?

It's conductive and doesn't stay in place very well. Not a great formula when you are working with PCB's.

 

[Bryank75]

Even smaller PC cases are larger than a PS5 and typically feature room intake and exhaust fans, as well as separate heatsinks and fans for both the CPU and GPU, which makes cooling much less of a problem, even if you just use regular thermal paste.


Even with liquid metal, PS5 is still going to get hotter than the components in an average gaming PC.

I find it a bit strange that PC gamers might go out and buy a 3090 or a high end CPU and then dollop on some cheap thermal paste, when they can get liquid metal (not exactly the same as PS5) equivalent and reduce heat by nearly a half though....

Do you not think it is a bit counter-intuitive?

 

[DarkestHour]

Liquid Metal has been available to the PC market for a very long time already, there's a reason it's not commonly used. The PS5 using it isn't going to change that.

Laptop manufacturers have started using it. Wish people would stop acting like it's new and a game changer that the PS5 uses something that's been around for a while.

 

[DarkestHour]

I find it a bit strange that PC gamers might go out and buy a 3090 or a high end CPU and then dollop on some cheap thermal paste, when they can get liquid metal (not exactly the same as PS5) equivalent and reduce heat by nearly a half though....

Do you not think it is a bit counter-intuitive?

No, using a liquid metal TIM does not "reduce heat by nearly half", not even close.

 

[wordslaughter]

I find it a bit strange that PC gamers might go out and buy a 3090 or a high end CPU and then dollop on some cheap thermal paste, when they can get liquid metal (not exactly the same as PS5) equivalent and reduce heat by nearly a half though....

Do you not think it is a bit counter-intuitive?

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. So why comment?

 

[Yoboman]

PC has had liquid metal for years. You can easily build a PC that's more silent than a PS5 using just regular thermal paste, so it's never going to become the norm.

I can see a lot of gaming laptops starting to make use of it

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Seems like there is a lot more engineering required to ensure the liquid stays in place, because if it does not the system's toast. Is that worth the gains in thermal transfer? Remains to be seen.

Well, from what others have said, it sounds like the issue is the difficulty in applying it in a DIY setting. Trying to pour liquid during a PC build would be a nightmare.
Since consoles are built in factories, they don't have to worry about that. So in a sense, the OP is both right and wrong. It is almost certainly viable for prebuilts and laptops, but actual build-from-scratch PCs probably wouldn't use it. And it makes sense for consoles because the user is not suppose to crack open the thing.

 

[megreotsugua]

The problem was how they will apply it in mass production. And how will they secure it from spilling. Looks like they have solved it.

The problem going forward will still be the application of this thing in the production line. I guess it will make sense for a laptop and PC GPUs in the future provided they solve the same issues.

 

[LazyParrot]

I find it a bit strange that PC gamers might go out and buy a 3090 or a high end CPU and then dollop on some cheap thermal paste, when they can get liquid metal (not exactly the same as PS5) equivalent and reduce heat by nearly a half though....

Do you not think it is a bit counter-intuitive?

It's not counter intuitive because it's not true. Using Liquid metal does not lower temperatures by half, or anything close to it.

 

[RedVIper]

I find it a bit strange that PC gamers might go out and buy a 3090 or a high end CPU and then dollop on some cheap thermal paste, when they can get liquid metal (not exactly the same as PS5) equivalent and reduce heat by nearly a half though....

First, this "reduce heat by nearly a half though...." is complete bullshit.

Second, if I don't have any heating issues, why would I bother, if my computer runs silent and cold why would I care. This is being done for the PS5 because it has restrictions that just don't exist on computers.

 

[Bryank75]

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. So why comment?

Liquid Metal vs. Thermal Paste Benchmarks: Intel’s Thermal Problem, Pt1 | GamersNexus

stub There are many reasons that Intel may have opted for TIM with their CPUs, and given that the company hasn’t offered a statement of substance, we really have no exact idea of why different materials are selected. Using TIM could be a matter of cost – as seems to be the default assumption –...

www.gamersnexus.net

Was quoting from memory...it is still a significant improvement in thermal performance.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

You do realise it's not a new thing?

Thermal grizzly sell it if you want to buy some.

In fact some people on this very site replaced their ps4 thermal paste with some.

Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut Liquid Metal

Conductonaut is a liquid metal for applications with a high degree of efficiency in the range above 8° Celsius.

www.thermal-grizzly.com

What you don't understand is that what sony did is something else then appliying grizzly liquidmetal paste onto the heatsink and processor of the ps4(pro)

*Me having applied grizzlys liquidmetal paste onto my ps4pro

 

[wordslaughter]

Well, from what others have said, it sounds like the issue is the difficulty in applying it in a DIY setting. Trying to pour liquid during a PC build would be a nightmare.
Since consoles are built in factories, they don't have to worry about that. So in a sense, the OP is both right and wrong. It is almost certainly viable for prebuilts and laptops, but actual build-from-scratch PCs probably wouldn't use it. And it makes sense for consoles because the user is not suppose to crack open the thing.

You don't "pour" liquid metal in a DIY setting.

 

[Bryank75]

First, this "reduce heat by nearly a half though...." is complete bullshit.

Second, if I don't have any heating issues, why would I bother, if my computer runs silent and cold why would I care. This is being done for the PS5 because it has restrictions that just don't exist on computers.

Liquid Metal vs. Thermal Paste Benchmarks: Intel’s Thermal Problem, Pt1 | GamersNexus

stub There are many reasons that Intel may have opted for TIM with their CPUs, and given that the company hasn’t offered a statement of substance, we really have no exact idea of why different materials are selected. Using TIM could be a matter of cost – as seems to be the default assumption –...

www.gamersnexus.net

Yeah, I was quoting from memory.... still a good improvement.

 

[Hendrick's]

]

Well, from what others have said, it sounds like the issue is the difficulty in applying it in a DIY setting. Trying to pour liquid during a PC build would be a nightmare.
Since consoles are built in factories, they don't have to worry about that. So in a sense, the OP is both right and wrong. It is almost certainly viable for prebuilts and laptops, but actual build-from-scratch PCs probably wouldn't use it. And it makes sense for consoles because the user is not suppose to crack open the thing.

I would agree with that, but would add that there is also added engineering involved. If it can be done reliably I think it's definitely an improvement over thermal paste.

 

[LazyParrot]

Was quoting from memory...it is still a significant improvement in thermal performance.

That's an old Intel CPU from back when they didn't solder their dies. the only reason it does so well there is because the material intel used was so absolutely terrible. On a CPU where the die is soldered to the heat spreader the difference is much smaller.

 

[FranXico]

It's not counter intuitive because it's not true. Using Liquid metal does not lower temperatures by half, or anything close to it.

Effectiveness depends on chip it was applied to.

 

[Knitted Knight]

A lot of the reasons why you wouldnt use it in a PC can be mitigated by mass production efficiencies

Which is why a big player like Sony, expected to sell over 100 million PS5's a big deal. That's a lot of units, that's a lot of stress testing, and proof of concept at a mass market level.

This isn't low adoption hardware for a particular laptop line up.

 

[Dodkrake]

First, this "reduce heat by nearly a half though...." is complete bullshit.

Second, if I don't have any heating issues, why would I bother, if my computer runs silent and cold why would I care. This is being done for the PS5 because it has restrictions that just don't exist on computers.

If my letters arrive safe and sound, why should I use email?
If my horse carriage takes me to the mall, why should I get a car?
If my smoke signals are translatable, why buy a phone?

 

[GHG]

Liquid Metal vs. Thermal Paste Benchmarks: Intel’s Thermal Problem, Pt1 | GamersNexus

stub There are many reasons that Intel may have opted for TIM with their CPUs, and given that the company hasn’t offered a statement of substance, we really have no exact idea of why different materials are selected. Using TIM could be a matter of cost – as seems to be the default assumption –...

www.gamersnexus.net

Was quoting from memory...it is still a significant improvement in thermal performance.

The differences in temperatures you are seeing there is a combination of delidding and the liquid metal, not just the liquid metal alone.

Honestly, it's best that most people don't even speak about this subject without educating themselves first. There have been some embarrassing takes in this thread so far.

 

[LazyParrot]

Effectiveness depends on chip it was applied to.

Show me a GPU where it cuts temps by half then. It's not like people haven't done this before. It's just not worth the time, cost, and effort.

 

[Dodkrake]

Show me a GPU where it cuts temps by half then. It's not like people haven't done this before. It's just not the time, cost, and effort.

Cool, so ROG is crazy for using a similar solution, right?

 

[skneogaf]

What you don't understand is that what sony did is something else then appliying grizzly liquidmetal paste onto the heatsink and processor of the ps4(pro)

*Me having applied grizzlys liquidmetal paste onto my ps4pro

Surely then you understand that all it does is cunducts the heat between the apu and the heat sink?

No different like at all!

The 2 years was probably spent making sure it won't have to be replaced within a few years.

 

[Bryank75]

The differences in temperatures you are seeing there is a combination of delidding and the liquid metal, not just the liquid metal alone.

Honestly, it's best that most people don't even speak about this subject without educating themselves first. There have been some embarrassing takes in this thread so far.

Well, we can enlighten ourselves through discourse..

I saw a video that said the application of liquid metal is a lot more 'involved' and 'precise' and the fact that liquid metal can short the circuit if not properly applied is an issue. So precision engineering is more appropriate to use this technique..... as opposed to a rig, which is essentially a home project where many things can go wrong with a less professional setup and more variables and less expertise.

 

[LazyParrot]

Cool, so ROG is crazy for using a similar solution, right?

That depends on how many people they can get to fall for it.

 

[captainraincoat]

The liquid metal on cpu has been used on PCs for years as someone pointed out

You quite often see it in laptops

Asus Will Use Liquid Metal Thermal Paste in Its Laptops - ExtremeTech

Asus will adopt liquid metal thermal paste on its Intel 10th Gen laptops, to improve cooling temperatures -- and help handle the heat.

www.extremetech.com

Liquid metal is not the be all and end all to cooling problems and I’m trying to be as careful as possible to not trigger some folk

you have 2 main issues and anyone with a gaming laptop can attest to this
As they get older intakes and outtakes get dust so regular cleaning is required and looking at the teardown some parts are not physically accessible to clean out without voiding your warranty and if you have ever pulled apart a ps4 pro you get some hard caked dust in parts you can’t get to without voiding your warranty which requires physical removal with a cotton tip.

the ps5 does appear to have massive intakes (dual sided this time) and outlets but these vents will also suck up a large amount of dust...the cleaning outlets they have pointed out may remove some of this but not all.

the second part is the heat sink on the bottom..a heat sink works by distributing heat through the sink and is cooled by airflow....if you have a reduced airflow as per point 1 it’s not as effective

I wished they went with a vapour chamber option as it works much better as a whole for the rest of the components and in particular if you have a reduced airflow

the liquid metal on the cpu is a more direct option to the above but it is focused on the cpu/gpu ...there are other parts in the case such as ssd/ram which also generate heat
I think they missed an opportunity to really nail the cooling by offering a vapour chamber as it benefits the whole unit.

Sony have made some great steps in the design but I would still be very cautious about thinking it’s going to be quiet all the time you have it

If your wondering what my experience is with this sort of stuff...I make a good side hustle repairing/cleaning and adding custom cooling to ps4 consoles

 

[RedVIper]

Liquid Metal vs. Thermal Paste Benchmarks: Intel’s Thermal Problem, Pt1 | GamersNexus

stub There are many reasons that Intel may have opted for TIM with their CPUs, and given that the company hasn’t offered a statement of substance, we really have no exact idea of why different materials are selected. Using TIM could be a matter of cost – as seems to be the default assumption –...

www.gamersnexus.net

Yeah, I was quoting from memory.... still a good improvement.

So you're comparing a good liquid metal vs knowingly shitty stock paste for intel processors?

Now, is liquid metal better? Absolutely. Is it worth it the extra hassle when you have to apply it yourself and the risks associated with it? No, in my opinion anyway.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Taco Bell nacho cheese also works