Support NeoGAF

[Killer8]

Money coming in after 30% cut for an easy port is nothing. It's certainly better than to say you stay within your closed walls because you get to keep 30%. It doesn't work like that, you get access to a bigger pool of gamers and you make money.

But the point of bringing up the Phil Spencer quote was that this thinking drove Microsoft to branch out in a more multi-platform direction and it ultimately ended up killing the brand. People stopped buying Xbox because you can just get it elsewhere. That is the risk here.

(Higher ups imposed that because they wanted to chase rapid short term profits at the expensive of long term longevity. A tale as old as time.)

$500M to $700M Sony is making yearly on PC.

That's revenue data for their own first-party releases. Let's say in an absolute best case scenario they consistently pulled that number yearly over the last 5 years (they didn't) = so i'll be generous and assume $3 billion, tops.

In the last 5 years on PS5 they pulled in revenue of $136 billion. People don't realize that Sony barely make their money off their own releases, it's from the cut they take for everything. There are nearly 4000 games released on PS5 and SIE have made, what, a couple of dozen?

Their PC numbers sound impressive on paper but it's pocket change in the grand scheme of things.

Exclusives are a gateway drug to get people into an ecosystem and spend money.

Nintendo is being Nintendo, they're in their own world and oblivious to trends. Maybe investors will put pressure. They would also benefit on multiplatform.

You're painting Nintendo as ignorant when it's the exact opposite. They're smart for protecting the long term health of their business.

Here's what happens if they start selling on other consoles:

- People slowly stop buying their hardware, because why bother? It's all on PC and PS5 now. This is especially pertinent for Nintendo, as they are one of the few companies who tend to make directly profitable hardware rather than selling it as a loss leader and making it up with software sales.
- As their hardware sales decline, people engage with and spend less on their ecosystem, resulting in the decline of online subs, microtransactions and their 30% cut from spending on third parties.
- Eventually once they've transitioned fully to a software company, hardware sales reach rock bottom (like Xbox), and they become completely third party, losing the entirety of those other highly lucrative revenue streams
- those hypothetical higher sales numbers which the investors pushed for (who are retards btw), now totally reliant on coming from other platforms, then fails to bring in nearly as much money than if they had just locked them down to their own platform

 

[daclynk]

Sony can very easily strangle Nintendo with path tracing, which will make AAA completely unviable on future Switch consoles.

How is that working put for you in the PS5 1st Party Games released so far.

Do you still Believe that "We BELIEVE IN GENERATIONS" quotes by Jim. sure is working out well.

 

[daclynk]

Xbox

does it have a space anymore?

i wonder who will occupy that.

 

[Topher]

What about the WII?
SAME the was said Wii Vc the HD twins.
Or 360 vs Wii vs PS3
its happening again as everyone is COPING NINTENDO AGAIN. like they did with the Wii.
but according to GAF

It isn't different

 

[RoboFu]

Yeah I wouldnt want to put Sony up against Nintendo either seeing as they always dominate the charts

 

[reinking]

If the "war" is Sony vs Steam, consoles have lost.

The "war" for an open gaming OS is going to be MS vs Steam. The console "war' will be Nintendo vs Sony. I actually have come around to the idea of only having two true gaming consoles (locked down OS that supports gaming only that can be optimized to the metal) and the PC/hybrid space taking care of itself. I think that hybrid market will compete more against traditional PC gaming than it will traditional console gaming. Not for enthusiast, but those millions of mass market gamers.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Sony fans really out here thinking Sony will stop porting games to pc....holy poop.

 

[daclynk]

It isn't different

Isnt the Switch the same situation as the Wii

 

[daclynk]

Sony fans really out here thinking Sony will stop porting games to pc....holy poop.

I Know right

 

[memoryman3]

- As their hardware sales decline, people engage with and spend less on their ecosystem, resulting in the decline of online subs, microtransactions and their 30% cut from spending on third parties.

No one buys third party games on Nintendo aside from certain brands like Sonic, indie games and other budget games. The vast majority of Nintendo's income comes from their own first party games.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Exactly. I don't think it is any coincidence that Sony's movement into the PC space has increased in line with Xbox's demise.

I could see Sony increasing their porting because why not?

Xbox is zero threat even if the next Xbox console allows Steam somehow

"We're not going to grow the market with $1,000 consoles"
~some guy

I think a lot of people mistake what he is saying here because even when he said it he knew good and well said $1000+ console was being designed

He is right, they wont grow the market with this machine but he didn't say it wasn't coming but it is indeed coming

If I am being honest I hinted at this several days ago but heard something kind of crazy, what if the Xbox console is stupid expensive since it has BC and its up to Asus to provide the cheaper versions in their OEM non BC PCs?

Not betting the farm on that being 100% true, not yet anyhow

 

[RoboFu]

I could see Sony increasing their porting because why not?

Xbox is zero threat even if the next Xbox console allows Steam somehow


I think a lot of people mistake what he is saying here because even when he said it he knew good and well said $1000+ console was being designed

He is right, they wont grow the market with this machine but he didn't say it wasn't coming but it is indeed coming

If I am being honest I hinted at this several days ago but heard something kind of crazy, what if the Xbox console is stupid expensive since it has BC and its up to Asus to provide the cheaper versions in their OEM non BC PCs?

Not betting the farm on that being 100% true, not yet anyhow

I think ms is missing a big opportunity by not making a pci Xbox card with amd for Xbox BC. They obviously can't get full software BC going for many different reasons.

 

[mayham2199]

I know what it is now but this is about what'll happen going forward. Once Valve is truly entering the living room I'm thinking it's bye bye Steam for Sony's games. Unfortunately.
Sony could still do their own launcher, if they think they could make enough money on PC to be worth the effort, but I can't see them keep having their games on Steam - could result in a "Why do I need a PlayStation if the games are on [other device]?" scenario unless there is some significant difference in pricing or hardware features.

Well current steamos can't play a lot of the most popular MP franchises which is a huge difference.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Sony fans really out here thinking Sony will stop porting games to pc....holy poop.

Sony has a great console business , unlike Microsoft that doesn't even have one anymore....

LOL

 

[deriks]

No. It doesn't make sense since you can fucking buy Sony games on Steam

In the little perspective of competition with this "war", Sony already lost

 

[BlackTron]

Oh and Sony can very easily strangle Nintendo with path tracing,

This actually made me laugh out loud

 

[DenchDeckard]

Sony has a great console business , unlike Microsoft that doesn't even have one anymore....

LOL

That has nothing to do with the budget of Sonys games and how they need to make money.

Microsoft now has a larger customer base than Sony.

The days of 100 million console sales being enough for these suits is not enough. If you think otherwise you're honestly clueless.

 

[forsakkenSoul]

I don't know, I just think that if Sony decides that PC is no longer part of its market strategy and chooses not to port its games to PC anymore, it won't really make a difference to me. But I find it unlikely that this will happen.

As for creating its own store to compete with Steam, well, it's possible, but I don't think they'll do it. Sony's games on PC have their audience, but it's not big enough to justify having their own store. I mean, even with their games on Steam some titles don't perform that well in sales, imagine if they weren't on Steam at all.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Sony fans really out here thinking Sony will stop porting games to pc....holy poop.

Yup, it's BryanK military grade copium

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

That has nothing to do with the budget of Sonys games and how they need to make money.

Microsoft now has a larger customer base than Sony.

The days of 100 million console sales being enough for these suits is not enough. If you think otherwise you're honestly clueless.

It doesn't do any good to try and reason with that poster

They are here for one thing, to antagonize the Xbox crowd as that is how that account spends the majority of their time posting here in countless threads.

 

[TintoConCasera]

There is no war, don't be retarded. Nintendo, Sony and the PC all offer way different experiences depending on what you want.

For me, PC is best, but I can understand people going for consoles for something different. Ease of use and all that.

 

[Seiryu21]

That has nothing to do with the budget of Sonys games and how they need to make money.

Microsoft now has a larger customer base than Sony.

The days of 100 million console sales being enough for these suits is not enough. If you think otherwise you're honestly clueless.

Ubisoft and EA have a larger customer base than Sony. Are they doing okay?

 

[Mister Wolf]

No. It doesn't make sense since you can fucking buy Sony games on Steam

In the little perspective of competition with this "war", Sony already lost

And Half Life Alyx still isn't on Playstation.

 

[DenchDeckard]

It doesn't do any good to try and reason with that poster

They are here for one thing, to antagonize the Xbox crowd as that is how that account spends the majority of their time posting here in countless threads.

Oh. Thanks, man. I wasnt aware. I'll put them on ignore.

 

[The Pleasure]

It's 1998/1999 again

Love the 90s music. What a time to be alive

 

[DenchDeckard]

Ubisoft and EA have a larger customer base than Sony. Are they doing okay?

its funny isn't it. All EA had to do was deliver a great Battlefield experience similar to old games but a little modernised and it sells millions.

I also think Sony have been very clever with Yoteis budget. Hopefully the gaming world is healing.

 

[Seiryu21]

its funny isn't it. All EA had to do was deliver a great Battlefield experience similar to old games but a little modernised and it sells millions.

I also think Sony have been very clever with Yoteis budget. Hopefully the gaming world is healing.

That's basically what I'm getting at. Having a access to a large customer base won't help you if there's no demand for your products.

Sony and Nintendo are able to better sustain themselves on a smaller customer base because of comparatively higher demand for their products. And weirdly enough the more exclusive the products are perceived to be, the higher the demand is. That's why I can't agree with direct comparisons between PlayStation and Xbox anymore.

 

[Buggy Loop]

But the point of bringing up the Phil Spencer quote was that this thinking drove Microsoft to branch out in a more multi-platform direction and it ultimately ended up killing the brand. People stopped buying Xbox because you can just get it elsewhere. That is the risk here.

(Higher ups imposed that because they wanted to chase rapid short term profits at the expensive of long term longevity. A tale as old as time.)



That's revenue data for their own first-party releases. Let's say in an absolute best case scenario they consistently pulled that number yearly over the last 5 years (they didn't) = so i'll be generous and assume $3 billion, tops.

Are you seriously taking the ramp up from their first PC game released 5 years ago as a gotcha compared to an established ecosystem? Really?

Sony went from $35M → $80M → $250M → $450M

Pre helldiver 2. 700M on that year release. Why wouldn't it be ~$500M yearly if they keep supporting it?

And this is with much much lower operating costs for ports, THEY need this because Sony is one of the least efficient around when it comes to that

$500M on PC for low cost ports is worth a LOT in profit. Their profit yearly is $1.9B. It melts away. Imagine, that $1.9B is also from the 30% 3rd parties. Their hardware and 1st parties are basically bleeding money like someone got run over by a semi truck.

In the last 5 years on PS5 they pulled in revenue of $136 billion.

Like I said above, what remains is basically nothing.

People don't realize that Sony barely make their money off their own releases, it's from the cut they take for everything.

I don't think they even make money back, even the bag of 30% cut is mostly empty in the end. They're bleeding like a pig.

There are nearly 4000 games released on PS5 and SIE have made, what, a couple of dozen?

Their PC numbers sound impressive on paper but it's pocket change in the grand scheme of things.

Not when $1.9B is what remains in your pockets and the PC costs of ports versus revenue is probably the highest profit they make in this business. No wonder they went PC. Peoples thinking it's for nothing are completely delusional.

Exclusives are a gateway drug to get people into an ecosystem and spend money.

Looking at their operating costs they would be better off being a 3rd party

all that effort for bleeding so much cash

You're painting Nintendo as ignorant when it's the exact opposite. They're smart for protecting the long term health of their business.

No they are ignorant

They tipped their toes into mobile and saw a huge amount of money. It's a matter of time they see no reason to take care of complex logistics for hardware when 3rd parties are no longer making exclusives for you. Its not imminent because they're slow to react to trends.

Here's what happens if they start selling on other consoles:

- People slowly stop buying their hardware, because why bother? It's all on PC and PS5 now. This is especially pertinent for Nintendo, as they are one of the few companies who tend to make directly profitable hardware rather than selling it as a loss leader and making it up with software sales.
- As their hardware sales decline, people engage with and spend less on their ecosystem, resulting in the decline of online subs, microtransactions and their 30% cut from spending on third parties.
- Eventually once they've transitioned fully to a software company, hardware sales reach rock bottom (like Xbox), and they become completely third party, losing the entirety of those other highly lucrative revenue streams
- those hypothetical higher sales numbers which the investors pushed for (who are retards btw), now totally reliant on coming from other platforms, then fails to bring in nearly as much money than if they had just locked them down to their own platform

Dude most of your points peoples are already at that stage right now with how they approach game buying for switch 2.

They'll feel the drop of 3rd party sales on switch 2. There's no exclusives anymore. I own a switch 2, but why would I buy any 3rd parties there? I have a PC, unless I want to travel and can't resist playing a game for a couple of weeks? Naw I can wait.

The domino already started. You buy switch 2 only and only for Nintendo exclusives. When hardware that barely makes profit exists only for your couple of games yearly, it's the beginning of the end. It won't happen this gen but it's a start of things to come. Even switch 1 exclusives fell off a cliff in the end. I can only recall platinum games, niche action games like bayo 3 and astral chain.

Zero 3rd party exclusives on switch 2 so far, zero. That 30% cut will melt away.

 

[vkbest]

They are not losing money with Steam. They are making quite a good amount of it.

They can win 1000 million on Steam, but if they lose 3000 million on PSN because the strategy makes people abandon Playstation for a PC, then they are losing money. That is the main factor, if making games for steam, makes their Playstation business weaker (the 96% of profits from Playstation) or not

 

[Fess]

Competing with Sony is irrelevant without the convenience of a console. The experience has to be smooth and seamless.

SteamOS is smooth and seamless. If Valve could bring that into a box specifically tailored for the TV, without wasting money on a screen pushing the price up, it would be a Steam console and essentially a direct competitor to PS consoles.

Pricing is the problem though. Not sure if Valve would be able to eat up the the hw cost in the early years like Sony can.

 

[Tobimacoss]

War? What is it good for?

 

[DenchDeckard]

That's basically what I'm getting at. Having a access to a large customer base won't help you if there's no demand for your products.

Sony and Nintendo are able to better sustain themselves on a smaller customer base because of comparatively higher demand for their products. And weirdly enough the more exclusive the products are perceived to be, the higher the demand is. That's why I can't agree with direct comparisons between PlayStation and Xbox anymore.

Maybe I'm mixing up what you are saying but Microsoft has put a few games on playstation now and they've dominated the playstation charts. So there is definitely demand for their games.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

War? What is it good for?

 

[Topher]

Isnt the Switch the same situation as the Wii

Yeah, and that is what I'm saying isn't different. Nintendo broke off from the tried and true path that consoles had followed for years starting with the Wii and pioneered their own trail. They have been remarkably successful with it but they are not competing directly for the same audience as Xbox and PlayStation

 

[Buggy Loop]

SteamOS is smooth and seamless. If Valve could bring that into a box specifically tailored for the TV, without wasting money on a screen pushing the price up, it would be a Steam console and essentially a direct competitor to PS consoles.

Pricing is the problem though. Not sure if Valve would be able to eat up the the hw cost in the early years like Sony can.

All rumours point that valve was selling steam deck at a loss for quite a while early on.

They have a lot to take care of to have a seamless experience, to me the biggest problem are the mess of upscalers, they need a general upscaler overwrite, detect DLSS, FSR, TAA, XeSS and like optiscaler, make an automatic switch to what the hardware supports. It's closer than ever I think. Their Deckard research into playing steam deck games on ARM will also only help their inevitable console like platform.

 

[Mobilemofo]

Couldn't give a fuck about steam..rather give up gaming altogether than go back to PC gaming.

 

[Topher]

I could see Sony increasing their porting because why not?

Xbox is zero threat even if the next Xbox console allows Steam somehow


I think a lot of people mistake what he is saying here because even when he said it he knew good and well said $1000+ console was being designed

He is right, they wont grow the market with this machine but he didn't say it wasn't coming but it is indeed coming

If I am being honest I hinted at this several days ago but heard something kind of crazy, what if the Xbox console is stupid expensive since it has BC and its up to Asus to provide the cheaper versions in their OEM non BC PCs?

Not betting the farm on that being 100% true, not yet anyhow

Yeah, agree with all that, but what I'm saying is this $1000 console isn't going to reengage Microsoft into the console war. That time is past. It seems we have folks who believe magnus will be Xbox rising from the ashes and a return to the days where Xbox consoles stood toe to toe with PlayStation. I'd love for that to be the case but that will never happen going the ultra-expensive route. I have a hard time understanding that strategy honestly

That's interesting about Asus. I'm looking forward to seeing what that actually is.

 

[asdasdasdbb]

Yeah, agree with all that, but what I'm saying is this $1000 console isn't going to reengage Microsoft into the console war. That time is past. It seems we have folks who believe magnus will be Xbox rising from the ashes and a return to the days where Xbox consoles stood toe to toe with PlayStation. I'd love for that to be the case but that will never happen going the ultra-expensive route. I have a hard time understanding that strategy honestly

Magnus is only going to be part of it. There will be cheaper stuff that's PC only but has console interface, etc. Then you have something like Steam Box.

With GAAS dominating gaming... you don't need high end hardware to game. And with Free MP, that's a big advantage.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Couldn't give a fuck about steam..rather give up gaming altogether than go back to PC gaming.

Can you point ok the doll where PC touched you?

 

[Topher]

Magnus is only going to be part of it. There will be cheaper stuff that's PC only but has console interface, etc. Then you have something like Steam Box.

With GAAS dominating gaming... you don't need high end hardware to game. And with Free MP, that's a big advantage.

Yeah, but magnus is the console part of it. Xbox branded PCs will more than likely just have the same interface as Rog Xbox Ally. That's what Bond has hinted at lately

 

[Mobilemofo]

Can you point ok the doll where PC touched you?

In my 'usb' slot and it was fiddling with my 'power cable'.

 

[playbignbox]

The three are in different niches, so I don't know if it's a direct war.

Now if you think about it from the perspective of "if I have one, the other becomes more dispensable", the war is probably between PC and PlayStation, as most of the games that come out are similar, including Sony publishing games for PC. At least the Switch has exclusives; there have been over half a dozen this year alone.

 

[Daymos]

I don't see how porting to Steam hurts their console sales at all, I believe that there is a large market of "console people" that don't play PC games. By that I mean people with no time (kids, job, etc), or low tolerance for frustration/tech problems, or no budget for PC graphics cards/high end prebuilts/gaming laptops, etc. There are millions of people in that category who are served by Sony and Nintendo.. somebody has to sell to them.

 

[Sintoid]

Do you feel empty without a "War" OP?

 

[Sharius]

i bet they will still do, they just use other platform for now just to get their leg into PC market, once they think they are good they will make their own patform, sony is not someone that want to rely on other forever

 

[saintjules]

It's Sony vs Nintendo.

Yep

 

[Fess]

Couldn't give a fuck about steam..rather give up gaming altogether than go back to PC gaming.

What's the problem if you have:

predefined SteamBox verified settings
press a button to start to the box
press a button install a game
press a button to play
can access the store from the main menu
see your achievements
see your friends list
can use whatever controller you want

?

 

[Seiryu21]

Maybe I'm mixing up what you are saying but Microsoft has put a few games on playstation now and they've dominated the playstation charts. So there is definitely demand for their games.

Yeah there's demand for some of their acquired titles and legacy titles. The overall point I was making was no matter who you are, the number of potential customers you have access to doesn't outweigh the need to have high quality in demand products.

Historically Xbox had a problem with this. Sony and Nintendo never had this problem so I don't think it makes sense to compare them. Regardless of the state of the market, Sony and Nintendo have a long time track record of consistently making games people want.

It remains to be seen if Microsoft gaming can sustain what they're currently doing.

 

[memoryman3]

It's Sony vs Nintendo.

And Sony has already won that war.

 

[Hari Seldon]

From my perspective if Sony wants to truly compete with PC they need to drop their paid online nonsense. I own everything but 100% of my online gaming is on PC because my friends refuse to buy a console due to the online fee.

You can't compete with PC by only producing the same 3rd person action games with dogshit writing. The market for these games is already 99.99% on Sony anyway.