Italy's Mateo Salvini: "We are working to build a new European dream, which for many has become a nightmare"

DunDunDunpachi

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Choice quotes from Salvini:

"We'll put into focus family, work security, environmental protection values, and the future of younger people. We'll do it as an alternative movement"
"We are ready to build a new future. This is the path to save Europe, because those who are sinking the European dream are the bureaucrats, the bankers, the do-gooders who've been governing for too long".

For context, Italy has been pulling away from the EU for quite some time, first on the issue of immigration aided by NGOs, and then on trade with China. Italy continues to make bold statements about the direction they believe the European Union needs to go. The first videoclip asks the leading question 'Is European Spring coming?' but I deliberately omitted that. I know the issue is complicated, but I didn't want to draw comparisons to events that happened in a different location and culture.

The political ramifications of Salvini meeting his aims would be a coalition of right-wing parties in the EU, possibly granting more power to those who want to curb immigration, strengthen their economies, and increase nationalism.
 

TheKingOfPain

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He should also tell his party to pay the €49mil fraud bill while he's at it. That would be very patriotic of him.
 

Dee Dah Dave

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Damage is already done unfortunately. Within 100 years most of Western Europe will be like Middle East 2.0, with a huge rift between the natives and the more recent migrants. That is my bold obvious prediction.

You can’t bring in vastly different cultures and expect things to remain as they are, especially when there is practically zero integration. If the West dies the future belongs to China, it’s going to get ugly I feel with a high risk of WW3. What a completely avoidable mess.
 

CurryPanda

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Damage is already done unfortunately. Within 100 years most of Western Europe will be like Middle East 2.0, with a huge rift between the natives and the more recent migrants. That is my bold obvious prediction.

You can’t bring in vastly different cultures and expect things to remain as they are, especially when there is practically zero integration. If the West dies the future belongs to China, it’s going to get ugly I feel with a high risk of WW3. What a completely avoidable mess.
It's depressing. Thankfully I will be dead by then.
 

Zaru

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A european coalition to strengthen nationalism has to be among the dumbest ideas I've seen conceived unless you WANTED to weaken Europe, and lo and behold, the far right parties who adopt this mindset, including this dude's party, are heavily involved/supportive of Russia. Look it up. It's so transparent it's not even funny.

I'd like Salvini to answer the following questions:
- Is it the EU's fault that italian politics have been an international joke for a long time now, electing people like Berlusconi?
- Is it the EU's fault that some of your cities are flooded with trash, that the southern half of your country is basically mafia controlled territory and nuclear waste gets dumped into the mediterranean?
- Is it the EU's fault that you and your party were under fire for making tens of millions of € disappear?

What I can agree on is that the EU screwed Italy over with the mediterranean immigration issue, and that's what the grievances boil down to. That alone is enough to create a lot of anti-EU sentiment, the rest is just the usual far right conservative grifter spiel.
 

Enygger_Tzu

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EU is not reformed, is not cleaned up, is not re-organized, EU can and SHOULD only evaporate and be destroyed.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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A european coalition to strengthen nationalism has to be among the dumbest ideas I've seen conceived unless you WANTED to weaken Europe, and lo and behold, the far right parties who adopt this mindset, including this dude's party, are heavily involved/supportive of Russia. Look it up. It's so transparent it's not even funny.

I'd like Salvini to answer the following questions:
- Is it the EU's fault that italian politics have been an international joke for a long time now, electing people like Berlusconi?
- Is it the EU's fault that some of your cities are flooded with trash, that the southern half of your country is basically mafia controlled territory and nuclear waste gets dumped into the mediterranean?
- Is it the EU's fault that you and your party were under fire for making tens of millions of € disappear?

What I can agree on is that the EU screwed Italy over with the mediterranean immigration issue, and that's what the grievances boil down to. That alone is enough to create a lot of anti-EU sentiment, the rest is just the usual far right conservative grifter spiel.
Is this how Greece was viewed, too, when it went bankrupt?

I think -- in spite of whatever issues Italy itself may be facing -- that the EU is doing nothing to alleviate the issues you've listed and is making it worse (from the perspective of the Italian people). This explains why they're voting differently and going in a different direction.
 

llien

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Anti-EU Bullshit intensifies.

Meanwhile, UK on its own makes platforms responsible for the content published by users. (there was that "meme won't be legal" controversy after idiots in EU parliament decided to "protect content creators")

Italy has populist scum in power.
I won't need to google to figure he has warm feelings towards Mr Putler.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Anti-EU Bullshit intensifies.

Meanwhile, UK on its own makes platforms responsible for the content published by users. (there was that "meme won't be legal" controversy after idiots in EU parliament decided to "protect content creators")


Italy has populist scum in power.
I won't need to google to figure he has warm feelings towards Mr Putler.
As we've recently found out after the Mueller report was closed, Putin has a lot less influence over the global scene than previously scaremongered reported. It seems like news stations are eager to make you believe that evil boogeymen are responsible for the shift of political influence.

If Italy should be scolded for anything, it should be their dealings with China, who is doing their own fair share of violating human rights.

Meanwhile, Mother Germany is making oil/gas deals with Russia with impunity! Maybe Germany is compromised. You should look into that.
 

llien

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As we've recently found out after the Mueller report was closed, Putin has a lot less influence over the global scene than previously scaremongered reported
As in having Trump in his pocket would definitely let him have stronger influence over the world, yeah.
I've missed the part when M. report claimed Putler didn't try hard to interfere in US elections.
Because we know for sure he did.
Good for Trump (and US) that he didn't coordinate that activity with Putler.

Or that wonderful Crimea annexation welcoming AfD scum in German parliament.

Meanwhile, Mother Germany is making oil/gas deals with Russia with impunity!
Maybe Germany is compromised.
It is evident that Germany is compromised, former Chancelor is a bloody Gazprom manager.
It was Germany who blocked granting NATO MAP to Georgia and Ukraine.

And something, that you likely didn't know: it was German companies, that after 2008 August War let Putin quickly build an army that could take on a much bigger country like Ukraine. Rheinmetall built training facilities with capacity of concurently training 10'000 troops.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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As in having Trump in his pocket would definitely let him have stronger influence over the world, yeah.
I've missed the part when M. report claimed Putler didn't try hard to interfere in US elections.
Because we know for sure he did.
Good for Trump (and US) that he didn't coordinate that activity with Putler.

Or that wonderful Crimea annexation welcoming AfD scum in German parliament.

It is evident that Germany is compromised, former Chancelor is a bloody Gazprom manager.
It was Germany who blocked granting NATO MAP to Georgia and Ukraine.

And something, that you likely didn't know: it was German companies, that after 2008 August War let Putin quickly build an army that could take on a much bigger country like Ukraine. Rheinmetall built training facilities with capacity of concurently training 10'000 troops.
So why are we worried about Italy again? Sounds like they're escaping a shitshow.
 

Enygger_Tzu

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As in having Trump in his pocket would definitely let him have stronger influence over the world, yeah.
I've missed the part when M. report claimed Putler didn't try hard to interfere in US elections.
Because we know for sure he did.
So when Hussein's administration creates ISIS AND meddles in another country's elections and/or referendum is good, but when another country does it is bad?

And something, that you likely didn't know: it was German companies, that after 2008 August War let Putin quickly build an army that could take on a much bigger country like Ukraine. Rheinmetall built training facilities with capacity of concurently training 10'000 troops.
Also something you did know yourself; Putin is the only world leader actively fighting nazism, like he did when (USA funded?) nazis overthrew the perfectly legal Ukraine government.
 
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llien

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So why are we worried about Italy again?
There is a huge difference between Gazprom affair/Russia ties driven by capitalist lobby and literally being Kremlin's agents.

So when Hussein Chimpama's administration creates ISIS AND meddles in another country's elections and/or referendum is good
What?

actively fighting nazism
In Ukraine.

Let's go slowly, to have a perspective: openly chauvinist president of the country with one of the largest skinhead organizations in the world, successfully sells waging wars against neighbors in XXI century as "fighting nazism".
 

DunDunDunpachi

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There is a huge difference between Gazprom affair/Russia ties driven by capitalist lobby and literally being Kremlin's agents.
Sure, but hasn't the whole "leader of entire country is Putin's puppet" thing run out of gas? I think you only get to use this card once in a while without procuring more evidence, and no, "he wasn't as harsh on Putin as I subjectively wanted" isn't evidence of being Putin's puppet..

Unless you're proposing a return to McCarthyism.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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A Europe of racist, anti-intellectual, nationalist populists.

A great way to bring back the problems Europe faced up until 80 years ago and an even greater way to make Europe unable to tackle to problems of the future.




As we've recently found out after the Mueller report was closed, Putin has a lot less influence over the global scene than previously scaremongered reported.
1. I don't think Muellers report touched on the extent of Russian global influence.
2. Even if it did we wouldn't know yet.
3. Influence, in this case, refers to ideological influence. Russia has over the past 15 years worked on its civilizational ideology and came up with something deeply anti-western that revolves around a core nationalism.
Putins influence in the West is growing with growing nationalists tendencies in the West.
This all sounds a little sinister when you lay it out like that, but in essence its the exact same thing the West has always called "soft power".



Meanwhile, Mother Germany is making oil/gas deals with Russia with impunity! Maybe Germany is compromised. You should look into that.
Germany always did business with Russia and our "Energiewende"-plan included getting rid of coal and nuclear power, which in turn meant that we will rely partially on gas until at least 2040.
Trying to frame a completely reasonable and logical compromise in an ambitious long term plan to reduce fossil fuel consumption to zero, as if it were some kind of evil plan is extremely stupid and extremely disingenuous.

It immediately shows that the person in question has no understanding whatsoever of the topic they are talking about. Even worse, it shows that the person in question is so emotionally and ideologically invested in the defense of Trump that they are willing to turn the allegation against him around and direct them at whomever they see fit, without any rational function checking if it even makes a shred of sense.
Because the core of the argument would be that you shouldn't do business with countries you have ideological disagreements with.

Especially coming from Americans this argument an insult to any rational debate, because it's immediately clear that it is in bad faith and not based on any consistent moral convictions. (Because Americans are the last ones to stop doing business with a party because of ethical concerns. Just look at the Saudis funding terrorism and killing US journalists and Trump still happily selling them weapons.)


Right wingers often displays this tendency of holier than thou projection. It goes like this:
1. Trump is criticized for pushing Russian ideology, having countless ties to Russia and being actively helped by Russia propaganda, bot nets and social engineering.
2. Right wingers turn that and hold everyone else to the standard I mentioned above = everybody who does business with Russia is just like Trump.

To think that this petty, pathetic attempt at a gotcha argument became a talking point of international relevance is a sign of how we have strayed from rationality.

In the US people might be used to really stupid shit by now, but in Germany this whole thing was seen with utter disbelieve. A declaration of intellectual bankruptcy by one of our formerly most important allies.
While Germany was still unsure back in 2016 and 2017 about whether or not the US will remain an ally under Trump, it has become clear by now that this administration is an enemy of western values, an enemy of Europe, an enemy of democracy and an enemy of the liberal world order.
 

Zaru

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Sure, but hasn't the whole "leader of entire country is Putin's puppet" thing run out of gas? I think you only get to use this card once in a while without procuring more evidence, and no, "he wasn't as harsh on Putin as I subjectively wanted" isn't evidence of being Putin's puppet..

Unless you're proposing a return to McCarthyism.
The only way you can choose to ignore the blatant, obvious, undeniable connection between Russia and several nationalistic anti-EU parties in Europe is to put some bullshit threshold at "literal political puppet". That's not how it works.
 
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Enygger_Tzu

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Of course you would not know, allow me to educate you.

For the Isis part: https://www.albawaba.com/news/ex-pm-malki-divulges-hot-secrets-how-us-supported-isis-gain-power-iraq-1257218

Former Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has for the first time divulged explosive secrets about how the United States supported ISIS and intentionally allowed the Takfiri terror outfit to gain power in Iraq so that Washington could creep back into the Arab country.

Maliki, who served as PM between 2006 and 2014, told a local TV station on Sunday that the administration of former US President Barack Obama had played a key role in the creation of ISIS by allowing the terrorist group to overrun Iraqi territories.

According to the former premier, in 2013, the US provided Iraq with intelligence and aerial imagery pinpointing ISIS militants who had lined up behind Iraqi borders in Syria in large groups, waiting to cross into Iraq after what they thought was going to be the imminent fall of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

Maliki said back then Baghdad had no fighter jets capable of bombing the terrorist positions and the Iraqi combat helicopters did not have the range to orchestrate an attack. So naturally, Baghdad turned to Washington for help and asked the Obama administration to provide the Iraqi air force with “one or two” fighter jets under the 2008 security agreement between the two sides.

Washington, however, turned down the requests and advised the Iraqi government to ask Jordan for help but that was a no-go as there was no military cooperation agreement between Baghdad and Amman at the time.


Nevertheless, the Iraqi army’s 7th Division was sent to eradicate the terrorists without air support and made some progress before landing in a deadly terrorist siege that killed its commander and nearly dismantled the whole division.

The former Iraqi PM said America’s support for ISIS did not end there as Washington proceeded to stop all supplies of helicopter parts and other military equipment to Iraq and halted a contract to sell Iraq F-16 attack aircraft even though Baghdad had paid for them in advance.
Of course, Mr. Maliki might be wrong here, after all, why supply your ally's enemies with weapons to destroy him?

For the muddling of another country's referendum, Greece's to be most precise.

According to Wikileaks, an email conversation between Greece's prime-minster, Alexis Tsipras and White House representitve, John Podesta. Bill Clinton gave the order for Tsipras to overturn the Greek vote on the referendum and accept the EU's 'bail-out' plan.

Is this or is this not muddling of USA in another country's personal and political affairs?! YES OR NO?
 

DunDunDunpachi

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A Europe of racist, anti-intellectual, nationalist populists.

A great way to bring back the problems Europe faced up until 80 years ago and an even greater way to make Europe unable to tackle to problems of the future.





1. I don't think Muellers report touched on the extent of Russian global influence.
2. Even if it did we wouldn't know yet.
3. Influence, in this case, refers to ideological influence. Russia has over the past 15 years worked on its civilizational ideology and came up with something deeply anti-western that revolves around a core nationalism.
Putins influence in the West is growing with growing nationalists tendencies in the West.
This all sounds a little sinister when you lay it out like that, but in essence its the exact same thing the West has always called "soft power".




Germany always did business with Russia and our "Energiewende"-plan included getting rid of coal and nuclear power, which in turn meant that we will rely partially on gas until at least 2040.
Trying to frame a completely reasonable and logical compromise in an ambitious long term plan to reduce fossil fuel consumption to zero, as if it were some kind of evil plan is extremely stupid and extremely disingenuous.

It immediately shows that the person in question has no understanding whatsoever of the topic they are talking about. Even worse, it shows that the person in question is so emotionally and ideologically invested in the defense of Trump that they are willing to turn the allegation against him around and direct them at whomever they see fit, without any rational function checking if it even makes a shred of sense.
Because the core of the argument would be that you shouldn't do business with countries you have ideological disagreements with.

Especially coming from Americans this argument an insult to any rational debate, because it's immediately clear that it is in bad faith and not based on any consistent moral convictions. (Because Americans are the last ones to stop doing business with a party because of ethical concerns. Just look at the Saudis funding terrorism and killing US journalists and Trump still happily selling them weapons.)


Right wingers often displays this tendency of holier than thou projection. It goes like this:
1. Trump is criticized for pushing Russian ideology, having countless ties to Russia and being actively helped by Russia propaganda, bot nets and social engineering.
2. Right wingers turn that and hold everyone else to the standard I mentioned above = everybody who does business with Russia is just like Trump.

To think that this petty, pathetic attempt at a gotcha argument became a talking point of international relevance is a sign of how we have strayed from rationality.

In the US people might be used to really stupid shit by now, but in Germany this whole thing was seen with utter disbelieve. A declaration of intellectual bankruptcy by one of our formerly most important allies.
While Germany was still unsure back in 2016 and 2017 about whether or not the US will remain an ally under Trump, it has become clear by now that this administration is an enemy of western values, an enemy of Europe, an enemy of democracy and an enemy of the liberal world order.
That was a well-thought-out post, but it could've done without all the empty vitriol. Sounds like Russia is only okay when Germans say it's okay, seeing how you haven't shook up your own Government.

The rant about right-wingers... weird. You suffer from TDS it seems, since I never brought up Trump. Maybe focus on explaining why Germany is one of the strongest pawns of Putin -- by all objective measures of economic and military solidarity -- and why Italy shouldn't flee that shitshow?
 

DunDunDunpachi

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The only way you can choose to ignore the blatant, obvious, undeniable connection between Russia and several nationalistic anti-EU parties in Europe is to put some bullshit threshold at "literal political puppet". That's not how it works.
I'm speaking as an American who doesn't follow your politics closely enough to see "blatant, obvious, undeniable connection" that you describe. Please offer me some links describing what is so obvious about it.
 

Zaru

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I'm speaking as an American who doesn't follow your politics closely enough to see "blatant, obvious, undeniable connection" that you describe. Please offer me some links describing what is so obvious about it.
Just google "russia ties to far-right parties" or similar search terms and go on a reading binge if you're so inclined.

The gist of it: Dubious money flows, meetings with russian people of influence that other political parties curiously rarely seem to have, election propaganda meddling and openly stated support.
It all falls in line with how much Russia has to gain by doing this - Divide and thus weaken Europe, on top of removing any kind of "moral high ground" if European countries are also led by nationalistic, xenophobic, conservative, corrupt politicians.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Just google "russia ties to far-right parties" or similar search terms and go on a reading binge if you're so inclined.

The gist of it: Dubious money flows, meetings with russian people of influence that other political parties curiously rarely seem to have, election propaganda meddling and openly stated support.
It all falls in line with how much Russia has to gain by doing this - Divide and thus weaken Europe, on top of removing any kind of "moral high ground" if European countries are also led by nationalistic, xenophobic, conservative, corrupt politicians.
I understand the fear of dividing Europe, but if your Union is corrupted (which is the assertion of some of the member states) it needs to be reformed as a response. I am under the impression that there are internal problems people want fixed: Britain has Brexit; Greece has bankruptcy; Italy has unpaid EU fees, high unemployment, and immigration complaints; so-called nationalism is rising in countries like Poland and Sweden; Hungary's hard stance on many EU issues, and so forth.

But all this is because "muh Russia conspiracy"? Nah, things don't work that way.

You accepted the socialist ideology. The Russians didn't... okay, you got me there. The Russians kinda-sorta did foist that upon you. But Europe has accepted the ideology for decades and mocked Americans ("hah! Look at our healthcare. Look at our infrastructures") while building their paradise. The EU has been around for... how long? Kind of a bad run so far unless you do something to pull it together.

I argue that a not-insignificant part of this ongoing collapse is that the EU and the way its member-states behave is not in the interest of the population. Whether you agree or disagree with the moral standpoint of the government versus the people's is a different discussion, the point being there's unrest.

Blaming Russia isn't going to fix that unrest. Tenuously pulling on yarn-string-conspiracies to scaremonger people into thinking Putin is puppeting their leader so that they'll keep supporting the government that caused their other problems isn't going to fix the internal issues.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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That was a well-thought-out post, but it could've done without all the empty vitriol.
Well, its necessary because an argument of shitpost quality entered the stage of international politics and normalizing bullshit like that is dangerous. So it is important to call it out in strong terms.

Sounds like Russia is only okay when Germans say it's okay, seeing how you haven't shook up your own Government.
This is what you took from that?
When has trade with Russia ever not been okay?
Are you aware that the US has an even bigger trade deficit with Russia than Germany has?
US had 12.5 billion in 2018, Germany only 10 billion. (both numbers in €)

The rant about right-wingers... weird. You suffer from TDS it seems, since I never brought up Trump.
The argument you made came from Trump and his right wing fellowship. Literally no one outside of that group would make this argument.

Maybe focus on explaining why Germany is one of the strongest pawns of Putin -- by all objective measures of economic and military solidarity -- and why Italy shouldn't flee that shitshow?
Germany always tried to establish good relations with Russia.
That was entirely legitimate for several reasons:
1. EU expansion towards the east. Since the EU is, among other things, planned as a value union, its always open to welcome new members. For Russia to not consider EU expansion the east a threat it was integral to try to establish good relationships and be open about the plans about why Russia doesn't have to fear this development.
2. Post-Soviet Russia was in uncertain state when it came to its ideological orientation. Europe obviously hoped that Russia would adopt a western value system.

But the context of all this changed when Russia decided to go with a fundamentally anti-western ideology, especially since Europe has already made very bad experiences with authoritarian nationalism.


Why shouldn't Italy flee?
1. Italys economy is pretty bad and without the EU it would be much worse. (just imagine the hit to tourism)
2. Italys international influence would be near zero without the EU.
3. Italy, having a sea border, would have no legitimate reason to ask other countries for help with issues like the refugee crisis without the EU.
4. Culturally it also wouldn't go over well with Italians to be outcasts in the heart of Europe, unable to travel, work and learn and live freely.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Well, its necessary because an argument of shitpost quality entered the stage of international politics and normalizing bullshit like that is dangerous. So it is important to call it out in strong terms.
Careful what you call a shitpost. I love it when you get so emotional, though, even from a shitpost. I bet it's really cathartic to take your righteous rage out on a name across the internet.

This is what you took from that?
When has trade with Russia ever not been okay?
Are you aware that the US has an even bigger trade deficit with Russia than Germany has?
US had 12.5 billion in 2018, Germany only 10 billion. (both numbers in €)
I'm not excusing the USA. We're talking about Germany (actually, we're talking about Italy). And when you consider the USA has a population of 325M and Germany is 82M, I'd say Russia has a lot more influence over the Germans. That's just population: the GDP gap between the two countries makes that comparison look even worse for Germany... :messenger_anxious:

The argument you made came from Trump and his right wing fellowship. Literally no one outside of that group would make this argument.
So you're a mind reader? You know?



This is a baseless accusation. Keep fretting and getting emotional instead of actually engaging with my points. You sound like a teenager, but I'm not your parent. Stop treating me like it with your tantrums.

Germany always tried to establish good relations with Russia.
So they've probably been Russian puppets for even longer. Heck, Donald Trump has only been a puppet since 1987! The Germans are even more enslaved by Putin! I knew it all along...

That was entirely legitimate for several reasons:
1. EU expansion towards the east. Since the EU is, among other things, planned as a value union, its always open to welcome new members. For Russia to not consider EU expansion the east a threat it was integral to try to establish good relationships and be open about the plans about why Russia doesn't have to fear this development.
Sounds like an excuse for tolerating injustice, tyranny, and the threat of Russian collusion. Why would you sacrifice the security of your Union by playing this way when you are faced by such an evil foe?

2. Post-Soviet Russia was in uncertain state when it came to its ideological orientation. Europe obviously hoped that Russia would adopt a western value system.
True, Germany should've known better than anyone what Soviet influence could do to a country. Didn't you have a wall or something that the USA helped to pull down, like, did we send Halliburton or something?

Yet, Germany has been the strongest supporter of unity with Russia. Hmm.

But the context of all this changed when Russia decided to go with a fundamentally anti-western ideology, especially since Europe has already made very bad experiences with authoritarian nationalism.
Depends on what you mean by "fundamentally anti-Western ideology". I think their return to religious values is a necessary healing for what their citizens were subjected to over the past century. I wouldn't be fearing Russia. I'd be looking to them for a warning of how not to run a country based on socialist principles, a lesson Europe is failing to learn.

Why shouldn't Italy flee?
1. Italys economy is pretty bad and without the EU it would be much worse. (just imagine the hit to tourism)
So Italy needs the EU to make sure this low, low rate of 32% among youth doesn't go any higher? Somehow I was under the impression that Italy was a self-governing nation state prior to the formation of the EU. I think they have "nothing to lose" if this is what assistance from the EU looks like.

2. Italys international influence would be near zero without the EU.
Good thing Italy is nestled in one of the safest regions on the planet with the USA to watch over it, like it does for the rest of you Europeans.

3. Italy, having a sea border, would have no legitimate reason to ask other countries for help with issues like the refugee crisis without the EU.
Au contraire, Italy would be able to "help with issues like the refugee crisis" on its own terms. It's citizens and government have been clear this is what they want. Again, why would they stick with the EU if the EU's "help" has led to the current situation?

4. Culturally it also wouldn't go over well with Italians to be outcasts in the heart of Europe, unable to travel, work and learn and live freely.
So the EU will exclude them, keep them from entering the country altogether, fencing Italy out?

Build the Wall! Keep those Italians out! If they want to leave the EU, we'll make sure they feel like outcasts!

 

RedVIper

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The only way you can choose to ignore the blatant, obvious, undeniable connection between Russia and several nationalistic anti-EU parties in Europe is to put some bullshit threshold at "literal political puppet". That's not how it works.
The globalists parties also have ties to Russia, so how exactly are they any different in that regard?
 

llien

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Sure, but hasn't the whole "leader of entire country is Putin's puppet" thing run out of gas?
It has. Are you mistaking me for someone?

"he wasn't as harsh on Putin as I subjectively wanted" isn't evidence of being Putin's puppet.
Well, warm feelings all the ultra-right folks in EU have for Putin is not a secret, and the AfD debacle hints at how that works.

Of course you would not know, allow me to educate you.
What does that have to do with this thread?


Bill Clinton gave the order for Tsipras to overturn the Greek vote on the referendum and accept the EU's 'bail-out' plan.
This is what we are talking about:


Is this or is this not muddling of USA in another country's personal and political affairs?! YES OR NO?
I don't know if "this is a lie" counts as "yes" or "no", the "leak" is not what you claim it is.
So is "yes is a lie" yes, or no?

Greece objectively went with the better option (alternative was grexit and big mess). EU played it harsher than they could.
We also have seen that being prof in games theory doesn't help vs EU negotiators. (not surprisingly)

Comparing that to what Putin is doing in the neighborhood, are you serious?
 

Enygger_Tzu

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I don't know if "this is a lie" counts as "yes" or "no", the "leak" is not what you claim it is.
So is "yes is a lie" yes, or no?

Greece objectively went with the better option (alternative was grexit and big mess). EU played it harsher than they could.
We also have seen that being prof in games theory doesn't help vs EU negotiators. (not surprisingly)

Comparing that to what Putin is doing in the neighborhood, are you serious?
So, you are telling me that you are OK with USA meddling in another country's internal affairs, but you lambaste Russia for allegedly doing the same.
Nice double standards, bro.

Also, pro-tip: Greece existed in one way or another almost 3.000 years before EU and it will exist without EU. Same goes for Italy.
 

Zaru

Member
Oct 2, 2012
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The globalists parties also have ties to Russia, so how exactly are they any different in that regard?
Globalist is a meaningless far-right conspiracy buzzword so you'll have to be more specific.
What parties? What ties? To the same extent? And why do you think I'd give such parties a pass anyway?

I understand the fear of dividing Europe, but if your Union is corrupted (which is the assertion of some of the member states) it needs to be reformed as a response. I am under the impression that there are internal problems people want fixed: Britain has Brexit; Greece has bankruptcy; Italy has unpaid EU fees, high unemployment, and immigration complaints; so-called nationalism is rising in countries like Poland and Sweden; Hungary's hard stance on many EU issues, and so forth.

But all this is because "muh Russia conspiracy"? Nah, things don't work that way.

You accepted the socialist ideology. The Russians didn't... okay, you got me there. The Russians kinda-sorta did foist that upon you. But Europe has accepted the ideology for decades and mocked Americans ("hah! Look at our healthcare. Look at our infrastructures") while building their paradise. The EU has been around for... how long? Kind of a bad run so far unless you do something to pull it together.

I argue that a not-insignificant part of this ongoing collapse is that the EU and the way its member-states behave is not in the interest of the population. Whether you agree or disagree with the moral standpoint of the government versus the people's is a different discussion, the point being there's unrest.

Blaming Russia isn't going to fix that unrest. Tenuously pulling on yarn-string-conspiracies to scaremonger people into thinking Putin is puppeting their leader so that they'll keep supporting the government that caused their other problems isn't going to fix the internal issues.
You keep talking in absolutes for some reason. Russia is A factor, not THE factor. I simply wouldn't vote for a party that lies in bed with foreign powers that cannot be trusted as allies or even partners.

It's not that there aren't problems or that the EU is perfect, far from it. But a lot of anti-EU sentiment is based on lies and propaganda by right wing populists. They're blaming problems intrinsic to their country on other countries because that's the old, tried-and-tested "blame the foreigners" tactic that lets them avoid taking a deep hard look at themselves.
Take Italy for example, many there love to blame the Euro currency for their economic decline when the reality is that its adoption just roughly coincided with developing countries catching up in the economical sectors that Italy's exports relied on. They likely were left behind because they couldn't keep up without devaluing their currency in a race against poorer countries in global trade. But who wants to admit that? This story pops up everywhere all the time, not just in Europe. Agriculture, manufacturing etc. often declined because capable competitors appeared on the world stage in the last two decades. Some of these developments were unavoidable, but people love finding something to blame.
 

Enygger_Tzu

Member
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Lies. I've cited the exact "leak" there is nothing of that kind.
Except you know, an overturned referendum and William Jefferson Clinton having a talk with Tsipras before said overturning of said referendum. Listen if you think you are fooling anyone here but yourself, perish this perfidious thought, it will only do you harm.

I'm not fond of USA in Middle East (second Iraq war in particular), but comparing that to Russian methods is like comparing headache to beheading.
Oh, do tell, do tell, how is USA and Russia different? Citations as well, please.


Also, dully noted that you did not replied to my response about the Iraqi minster blaming Hussein Obama about colluding with ISIS.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
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You keep talking in absolutes for some reason. Russia is A factor, not THE factor. I simply wouldn't vote for a party that lies in bed with foreign powers that cannot be trusted as allies or even partners.

It's not that there aren't problems or that the EU is perfect, far from it. But a lot of anti-EU sentiment is based on lies and propaganda by right wing populists. They're blaming problems intrinsic to their country on other countries because that's the old, tried-and-tested "blame the foreigners" tactic that lets them avoid taking a deep hard look at themselves.
Isn't that... what is taking place regarding Russia? Instead of the EU taking a deep hard look at themselves, they need to scaremonger about Russia? Don't misunderstand: I'm not dismissing your point. I'm agreeing with it. Blaming other countries is very common in a tumultuous situation, but that is not unique to the "right wing populists". The Left does it too.

Therefore, wouldn't the best option be to get to the bottom of it instead of characterizing who should or shouldn't be listened to because they're right-wing or left-wing? Like, a referendum or investigation or some such thing? It seems like that is a recurring complaint in these things.

Take Italy for example, many there love to blame the Euro currency for their economic decline when the reality is that its adoption just roughly coincided with developing countries catching up in the economical sectors that Italy's exports relied on. They likely were left behind because they couldn't keep up without devaluing their currency in a race against poorer countries in global trade. But who wants to admit that?
I dunno. It sounds like global trade hasn't been working out well for them, which might explain why they're becoming more nationalistic and are cutting ties with the EU. Is that hard to believe? I guess I don't understand the issue here.

This story pops up everywhere all the time, not just in Europe. Agriculture, manufacturing etc. often declined because capable competitors appeared on the world stage in the last two decades. Some of these developments were unavoidable, but people love finding something to blame.
As you've spelled out, that is technically what is to blame. You consider it "unavoidable", but others do not. That is why there is nuance and disagreements over these issues. Italy has high unemployment and the EU hasn't alleviated that. I think that's probably why they want to make ties with China outside of the EU's grip (which is actually the much-bigger threat to the EU compared to Russia).

EDIT: Sorry Ilien for the mistaken quote.
 
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Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Feb 9, 2009
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So when Hussein's administration creates ISIS AND meddles in another country's elections and/or referendum is good, but when another country does it is bad?
Do you want to try that again without being fucking racist?
 
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Enygger_Tzu

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Do you want to try that again without being fucking racist?
So a guy (and an administration) who supports an extremist group that HAS MASSACRED tens of thousands of people deserves the slightest shred of respect?

You are free to explain it in your own words. Refraining from the "Orange Man Bad" most preferably.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Feb 9, 2009
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So a guy (and an administration) who supports an extremist group that HAS MASSACRED tens of thousands of people deserves the slightest shred of respect?

You are free to explain it in your own words. Refraining from the "Orange Man Bad" most preferably.
You think he created Isis? How lost are you? FFS this kind of rhetoric is to be expected on a deranged conspiracy nutcase website.
 

Enygger_Tzu

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Helped by actively trying to destroy them?
Actively trying to destroy them by denying Iraq the means to do so when Iraq had the chance?

Actively trying to destroy them by supplying them with arms and cash?

Actively trying to destroy them by helping them rise in the ME?

Actively trying to destroy them by not listening to the warnings of HIS OWN ambassadors in Syria?

Actively trying to destroy them by having their 'greatest ally' collaborating with them?


Well, your definition of 'actively trying to destroy them' is different than the rest of the world's, just saying.
 

llien

Gold Member
Feb 1, 2017
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Except you know, an overturned referendum
Referendum was an attempt to bluff the other side, which was way too mature for that to work.
There is not a slightest hint at US strong-arming Greece into accepting the deal, contrary to what you repeatedly imply.

how is USA and Russia different?
US is a democracy, with media pluralism. Russia is not.
The best demonstration of what the difference is in practice:

South and North Korea.
Western and Eastern Germany.


Iraqi minster blaming Hussein Obama about colluding with ISIS.
What sort of Lubjanka BS is that? Jesus.
 

Boss Mog

Member
Dec 12, 2013
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I once saw a video of Italian senior citizens rummaging the outdoor market floor after it closed looking for rotten vegetables because they have no money for food, meanwhile African migrants were complaining, all while lounging around, about the quality of their free meals and the quality of the wi-fi at their free housing.

Salvini is the best thing that could've happened to Italy.
 
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Enygger_Tzu

Member
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Referendum was an attempt to bluff the other side, which was way too mature for that to work.
There is not a slightest hint at US strong-arming Greece into accepting the deal, contrary to what you repeatedly imply.
Citation needed for the first and I already proven to you the second happened, also, Mr. Tsipras held elections after the overturned referendum. Just FYI.

US is a democracy, with media pluralism. Russia is not.
The best demonstration of what the difference is in practice:

South and North Korea.
Western and Eastern Germany.
First things first, you are laughable if you ever think that USA's Fake News are even remotely better than Russia's Fake News.
Also we are talking about USA's military occupation of Middle East and how it is worst than Russia's occupation of Crimea.
Nice deflection, however.

What sort of Lubjanka BS is that? Jesus.
So you deny the Obama administration helped Isis? Is that it?
 

llien

Gold Member
Feb 1, 2017
4,416
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Citation needed for the first
No, it's an opinion and it doesn't need citations.

I already proven to you the second happened, also, Mr. Tsipras held elections after the overturned referendum.
He failed to get a better deal and paid political price for it.
What on earth does it have to do with US (not sure exactly what was "proven").

you are laughable if you ever think that USA's Fake News are even remotely better than Russia's Fake News
Once again:

Russia => North Korea
USA => South Korea

Russia => Eastern Germany
USA => Western Germany

I don't want to discuss ridiculous claims about Russian vs US media, it goes way too far.
In partisan bias US media sometimes does something to be ashamed of.
For Russian media the latter is the "normal" way of functioning.
I won't discuss this part further.

Obama administration helped Isis
What.
 

CurryPanda

Member
Mar 4, 2019
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I once saw a video of Italian senior citizens rummaging the outdoor market floor after it closed looking for rotten vegetables because they have no money for food, meanwhile African migrants were complaining, all while lounging around, about the quality of their free meals and the quality of the wi-fi at their free housing.

Salvini is the best thing that could've happened to Italy.
That’s so annoying, and here’s more enrichment in Italy from a refugee:

 
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Enygger_Tzu

Member
Jul 7, 2018
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No, it's an opinion and it doesn't need citations.
Your opinion is dully noted and it will be given the consideration it merits.

He failed to get a better deal and paid political price for it.
What on earth does it have to do with US (not sure exactly what was "proven").
So, Podesta and Bill Clinton trying to reach Tsipras at the days of the referendum specifically about the referendum is nothing at all, huh?

Once again:

Russia => North Korea
USA => South Korea

Russia => Eastern Germany
USA => Western Germany

I don't want to discuss ridiculous claims about Russian vs US media, it goes way too far.
In partisan bias US media sometimes does something to be ashamed of.
For Russian media the latter is the "normal" way of functioning.
I won't discuss this part further.
It does not help your case when you point fingers and then retreat, but I digress.

Check the links I provided above.