Italy's Mateo Salvini: "We are working to build a new European dream, which for many has become a nightmare"

ruvikx

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… and went to war against each other every 20 years.
… Because importing third world Muslims & Africans (many of whom don't even have an actual recorded "culture" because they didn't even have written word) will make Europe better? What the hell man?

Time & time again I see these ridiculous twistings of Europe's history which are used to justify the mass invasion we're currently subjected to. It's getting old & more & more of us see right through the lies.
 

Alx

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Just trying to show it's not a black and white situation, "the good old days" aren't the utopia some claim it was either.
Also influence from African and Muslim culture isn't new, and is present in the culture of most European countries around the mediterranean sea. Painting African immigration as "hordes of barbarians destroying our values" is even more transparent propaganda.
 

ruvikx

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Just trying to show it's not a black and white situation, "the good old days" aren't the utopia some claim it was either.
Also influence from African and Muslim culture isn't new, and is present in the culture of most European countries around the mediterranean sea. Painting African immigration as "hordes of barbarians destroying our values" is even more transparent propaganda.
How does Africa's people make France, Germany, Italy, Sweden etc. "better"? All we ever see is a moralistic stance where pro migrationists (a one way street) pretend it's a "good thing" to transport Africans & Muslims into white Christian lands. I say be careful, i.e. a balkanization has already occurred because the numbers are so large. Assimilation is not happening at a nationwide (or European wide) level. The real propaganda is from those who've made it their literal mission to racially diversify Europe at all costs. It's very transparent.
 

Alx

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Again with the over-simplification. Countries like France aren't "white Christian lands", if only because its territories traditionally extended well into Africa, and still has mostly black population in remote territories. (also the country is mostly secular now, and it started 200 years ago with the revolution)
Hey ever heard of that classical piece of French littérature, "the three Musketeers" ? Meet its writer, Alexandre Dumas.
 

Boss Mog

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Again with the over-simplification. Countries like France aren't "white Christian lands", if only because its territories traditionally extended well into Africa, and still has mostly black population in remote territories. (also the country is mostly secular now, and it started 200 years ago with the revolution)
Hey ever heard of that classical piece of French littérature, "the three Musketeers" ? Meet its writer, Alexandre Dumas.
Dumas is only 1/4 black and it's because is father who was 1/2 black was born in Haiti, which is very far away from mainland France. So please don't try to say mainland France was diverse back then because it's simply not true. Also the DOM-TOM are very fortunate to still be part of France. The people there benefit from all the same benefits as mainland French people, they're certainly much better off then the people from old French colonies which chose to become independent, such as Togo for example:
 

rorepmE

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A Europe of racist, anti-intellectual, nationalist populists.

A great way to bring back the problems Europe faced up until 80 years ago and an even greater way to make Europe unable to tackle to problems of the future.
Mass migration and open borders is intellectual in what capacity?

You don't have to go back to the 1930s. What was wrong with Europe in the mid to late 90s? A lot of these migrants survived living on nothing in their homeland. Now they're in countries with higher social nets and first world infrastructure. To work the jobs Europeans don't want to work..? Sounds familiar!

I bet you the listless "eh, good enough" types (that sees their wealth relative to what they left behind increased substantially) outnumber the "I want more" types that would take advantage of the economic opportunities.

The middle swath of people wouldn't have to support the right wing if the left wing didn't start a process of running shit into the ground. We know where the line is drawn for the right wing. The right wing has an unmistakable hard line to cross. The left wing on the other hand is the epitome of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
 

Kenpachii

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… and went to war against each other every 20 years.
Guess you got brainwashed by left wing media. You fell right for it.

What prevents wars in europe is that there is this beast of a country full off old europeans with a insane army with atomic bombs that can level any European country in a matter of days if not a day. War became pointless.

This group is a joke, Only resistance EU needs is the complete and utter decimation of this hitler 2.0 contract that is only there for germany to conquer entire europe and make them there bitch.

And this is the true fact about europe. It's there for germany and germany only.

Netherlands is already integrating pretty good into a new german state tho. They are already collecting our taxes. Next will be them deciding what we can or can't do and hold our money back to push us doing it.

Oh wait they already do this with our fishers right now.

Dat stability.
 
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Kazza

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You don't have to go back to the 1930s. What was wrong with Europe in the mid to late 90s?



This whole "reminiscent of the 1930s" canard has been abused to death over the past 3 years. Pretty much nobody wants to go back to the 30s, but many, many people wouldn't mind going back to the 90s. One of the worse things about it is that the people who fling the whole "1930s" trope about also tend to be the ones who most support a neo-liberal interventionist foreign policy. Surely the worst of all the bad things that went down in the 30s was when some countries began launching unprovoked invasions of other countries, often on falsified pretences and evidence. To have hypocrites who supported the Iraq war accuse others of "going back to the dark days of the 1930s" really takes some chutzpah.


An example:




Net immigration to the UK was over 300k per annum in the years leading up to the Brexit referendum, and was still above 250k in 2018. The government has said it wants to reduce this figure to the "tens of thousands". You frequently get the media saying that this is impossible, that the economy wouldn't survive, and yes, the whole 1930s accusation as well (i.e. a variation of the "you're just a Nazi" argument). Yet, as you can see in the graph above, net immigration to the UK in the early to mid 1990s was always well below 100k, and things were absolutely fine, people didn't starve and neither was it like the 1930s.
 

Kazza

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I had hoped this whole Mueller report fiasco would have quieted down all those Russian conspiracy theorists, but they still seem to be out in force. It's ironic that many of them decry the rise in xenophobia, while promoting a type of (anti-Russian) xenophobia all of their own.
 

Alx

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Guess you got brainwashed by left wing media. You fell right for it.

What prevents wars in europe is that there is this beast of a country full off old europeans with a insane army with atomic bombs that can level any European country in a matter of days if not a day. War became pointless.
So pointless that it's still happening, sometimes even at the edges of the union (Yugoslavia, Ukraine…). It's not like all countries have access to nuclear bombs (nor that it prevents those who do to go to war, see Russia).
Anyway if you want to have some credibility, you should stop labeling any dissenting opinion as "left wing" or "liberal" or whatever. It's just as bad as what the previous Neogaf crowd was doing before they left.

Also to add a comment about the messages above, Europe has indeed some values to promote against those of other third world countries. But those values aren't about being white or catholic, but defending tolerance and freedom. So yes it can mean having to fight some less tolerant beliefs that are trying to spread here, but putting signs "whites only" at the entrance of the country is not part of those values.
 

Alx

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And pray tell, how is Europe defending those values today?
By passing laws and enforcing them. France already banned the burqa in public places, and is setting new rules to control foreign funding of religious institutions. Hate speech is already banned, laws have been made against street harassment, etc.
It's a long and difficult fight, but it's one about what people are supposed to do, not what they're supposed to be. As long as the whole population (not only the migrant one) respects those values, their religion or the color of their skin doesn't matter one bit.
 
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Enygger_Tzu

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By passing laws and enforcing them. France already banned the burqa in public places, and is setting new rules to control foreign funding of religious institutions. Hate speech is already banned, laws have been made against street harassment, etc.
It's a long and difficult fight, but it's one about what people are supposed to do, not what they're supposed to be. As long as the whole population (not only the migrant one) respects those values, their religion or the color of their skin doesn't matter one bit.
OK, I'll ask a more direct question, then.

Pray-tell how is Europe defending the values of the indigenous European population where, it times of financial crisis wishes and HAS the right to be surrounded by its own, indigenous population?
How is Europe respecting the rights and traditional values of Europeans who wish less immigration and more deportations of illegal immigrants?

Bring more unwanted illegal immigrants in, making them into Europeans, ignoring European law regarding their deportation solves nothing, in opposition only makes the problem worse!
 

Alx

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You're mixing two things there. Illegal immigrants are, by definition, illegal. But there is no law protecting "the right of being surrounded by its own", as in "we only want white catholics, keep all those black people and muslims out of here". That's plain racist and xenophobic, and certainly not part of the values Europe is supposed to defend.
 

Enygger_Tzu

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You're mixing two things there. Illegal immigrants are, by definition, illegal. But there is no law protecting "the right of being surrounded by its own", as in "we only want white catholics, keep all those black people and muslims out of here".
Slight correction, I am Greek. And don't you think that by stopping and reversing the former, you are achieving the latter? For example, my country, Greece, was 96% Greek and 93% Orthodox, up until the late 90s.

That's not that far away to be erased from memory.
 

CurryPanda

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Slight correction, I am Greek. And don't you think that by stopping and reversing the former, you are achieving the latter? For example, my country, Greece, was 96% Greek and 93% Orthodox, up until the late 90s.

That's not that far away to be erased from memory.
Love the Greeks and their culture. Also, you guys make such fucking delicious food!
 
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ruvikx

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You're mixing two things there. Illegal immigrants are, by definition, illegal. But there is no law protecting "the right of being surrounded by its own", as in "we only want white catholics, keep all those black people and muslims out of here". That's plain racist and xenophobic, and certainly not part of the values Europe is supposed to defend.
You're pretending Europe is somehow judged based upon a "value" to commit suicide & become a new Africa-Arabia... for moral virtue reasons. Pro tip: people might not like Italy & the rest when they're mirrors of Africa & the middle east. It's really astounding how certain "groups" have made anti-white their new religion. But carry on.
 
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danielberg

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As in having Trump in his pocket would definitely let him have stronger influence over the world, yeah.
So you are just continue spouting this conspiracy garbage even after it has been proven wrong? Even after trump builds up on russias border or spits in germanys face for using russian gas?
The reason half of europe votes for the right is simply because the left just ignored that people dont want mass immigration especially not from one of the most conservative and anti western ideologies in the world. Literally no need for conspiracy theories and evil made up boogieman when leftwing stupidity is enough.
 
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Alx

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You're pretending Europe is somehow judged based upon a "value" to commit suicide & become a new Africa-Arabia... for moral virtue reasons. Pro tip: people might not like Italy & the rest when they're mirrors of Africa & the middle east. It's really astounding how certain "groups" have made anti-white their new religion. But carry on.
The point is precisely not te become "a new Africa-Arabia", because what makes Europe different from some of those places is its moral values. By trying to be as intolerant as the places you're criticizing, you're making Europe more like them.
That's why the effort should be put on fighting wrong ideologies, not filtering people by the colour of their skin.
 

ruvikx

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The point is precisely not te become "a new Africa-Arabia", because what makes Europe different from some of those places is its moral values. By trying to be as intolerant as the places you're criticizing, you're making Europe more like them.
That's why the effort should be put on fighting wrong ideologies, not filtering people by the colour of their skin.
You have no idea what you're talking about. What makes Europe "Europe" is its peoples. These peoples have been here for thousands of years, spanning civilizations from ancient Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire etc. etc. all the way to the enlightenment era & the industrial revolution. You're suggesting its "moral values" are detached from its people, that's wrong - end of. You're certainly not going to improve the place by diluting its people & throwing tens of millions of Africans & Muslims (many have absolutely incompatible cultures, history & behaviours) into Europe. FYI, Africa's demographic insanity (unsustainable population growth) is also not Europe's responsibility.

By the way, when you claimed "there's no law protecting the right to be surrounded by its own", you're both morally wrong (it's a form of aggression to deny a nation/civilization rights to their own land & borders), but it's also legally wrong, actually, because even the United Nations has an "indigenous peoples" declaration: https://www.un.org/development/desa/indigenouspeoples/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2018/11/UNDRIP_E_web.pdf

Convinced that control by indigenous peoples over developments affecting them and their lands, territories and resources will enable them to maintain and strengthen their institutions, cultures and traditions, and to promote their development in accordance with their aspirations and needs
White Europeans are indigenous to Europe.
 

llien

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Podesta and Bill Clinton trying to reach Tsipras at the days of the referendum specifically about the referendum is nothing at all, huh?
As in "doesn't it overshadow crap Putler is doing to his neighbors?".
Uh, are you serious?
Because if yes, are you high?

Let me elaborate on the difference between Russia and USA once more:

Russia: Eastern Germany
USA: Western Germany

Russia: North Korea
USA: South Korea

Check the links I provided above.
Cite the relevant part here, verbatim. I am not going to go visit yet another sensationalist article written in Greek citing cables that show nothing even remotely sensationalist.
 

llien

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So you are just continue spouting this conspiracy garbage even after it has been proven wrong?
Huh, that's not something I said or implied in my post.

The reason half of europe votes for the right is simply because the left just ignored that people dont want mass immigration...
I agree that people don't want mass immigration, but note that CDU:CSU is by no means "left".

Literally no need for conspiracy theories
AfD's love for Putin, said AfD skum visiting annexed Crimea and spilling tears about poor Putin under unfair sanctions is not a conspiracy. Neither are emails, which the involved Russian doesn't even deny writing.
Said "far light" parties weaken the West, hence Russia supports them, hence they love Putin so much.

Not sure about UK guys though, but German, Greek, Italian, French definitely.
 

Alx

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By the way, when you claimed "there's no law protecting the right to be surrounded by its own", you're both morally wrong (it's a form of aggression to deny a nation/civilization rights to their own land & borders), but it's also legally wrong, actually, because even the United Nations has an "indigenous peoples" declaration: https://www.un.org/development/desa/indigenouspeoples/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2018/11/UNDRIP_E_web.pdf
.
It's a text protecting indigenous people from oppression. Are you victim of a genocide ? Does your government prevent you from teaching your language ? Is it stealing your lands ? Is it denying you the same rights as other people ? No ? Well everything is fine, then.
Also it's funny how the UN laws can be conveniently used or ignored depending on how convenient they are for your purpose. Because there are many UN texts about migration, too...

And no, Europe is not defined by its people, but by its (evolving) culture. Its people changed all along the centuries, and I'm pretty sure people today don't look similar at all to people from the past. Anyway, the Romans already helped shuffle the cards when they added men from all around the Mediterranean to their troops and had they roam around their empire, from Egypt to Britain or Spain to Germany. Or the Macedonians, who had their soldiers marry the local population from Greece to India.
 

danielberg

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I agree that people don't want mass immigration, but note that CDU:CSU is by no means "left".


AfD's love for Putin, said AfD skum visiting annexed Crimea and spilling tears about poor Putin under unfair sanctions is not a conspiracy. Neither are emails, which the involved Russian doesn't even deny writing.
Said "far light" parties weaken the West, hence Russia supports them, hence they love Putin so much.

Not sure about UK guys though, but German, Greek, Italian, French definitely.
Lol CDU "n.. not left!" why? Because they say so? Because in the past they have not been? They are now and have been for the last decade.
Oh no talking with russia hey almost like literally every singe political party in power in any fucking country gee guess you better now shit on every political party with conspiracy theories and you better go especially hard after democrat "wunderkind" obama who actually got caught on hotmic colluding (you know the thing fools claim trump has done with no prove).
Newsflash it doesnt take russia to be against mass immigration it just takes a brain, if you cant accept that thats your issue.
Hell your argument doesnt make sense even if russia had any say, do you think people are not allowed to be against open border idiocy if russia is also against it for their own reason? Nope sorry doesnt work like that.
 
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llien

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Lol CDU "n.. not left!" why? Because they say so? Because in the past they have not been? They are now and have been for the last decade sorry if reality is inconvenient to you.
Well, it looks somewhat similar from EU, with "left" dems.
It's just where the center is, is quite different between countries.

dumb fuck conspiracy theories
It would be nice if you'd stop calling exposed facts "conspiracy theories" and would switch to a civil tone.
There was nothing dumb fuck about Trump's remarkable softness on Russia, least with AfD scum being Russian's puppet.

Newsflash it doesnt take russia to be against mass immigration
Of course it doen't.
Where did I say it was?
Russia is simply seeing the weakness and exploiting it.

Hell your argument doesnt make sense even if russia had any say, do you think people are not allowed to be against open border idiocy if russia is also against it for their own reason
What does being cool with annexation of Crimea, asking to drop sanctions against Putin, have to do with being against mass immigration?
 
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danielberg

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It would be nice if you'd stop calling exposed facts "conspiracy theories" and would switch to a civil tone.
There was nothing dumb fuck about Trump's remarkable softness on Russia, least with AfD scum being Russian's puppet.
"russia puppet" you are so delusional its beyond stupid at this point.
Again it doesnt matter what you want, or how bigoted you are against russians (suddenly out of nowhere because people dont vote how you want), or what you think what russia wants.
None of that changes or matters to what people want who vote for parties you cant stand like the afd.
Also it would be nice if you stop calling your own dumbfuck "russia puppet" conspiracy theories as fact
 

llien

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what people want who vote for
I'd pretent you stopped throwing insults left and right.
What does welcoming Crimea annexation and asking to drop sanctions against Putler have to do with anti-mass immigration sentiments? Name something connecting those two.
 

Enygger_Tzu

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As in "doesn't it overshadow crap Putler is doing to his neighbors?".
Uh, are you serious?
Because if yes, are you high?

Let me elaborate on the difference between Russia and USA once more:

Russia: Eastern Germany
USA: Western Germany

Russia: North Korea
USA: South Korea
And when I asked you what is different from what USA does, and in most cases, way worst than what Russia does and your reply is "BRUH, DAT'S MI OPINON! HUR DUR!"


Cite the relevant part here, verbatim. I am not going to go visit yet another sensationalist article written in Greek citing cables that show nothing even remotely sensationalist.
Citation needed that this is a sensationalistic article.


It's a text protecting indigenous people from oppression. Are you victim of a genocide ? Does your government prevent you from teaching your language ? Is it stealing your lands ? Is it denying you the same rights as other people ? No ? Well everything is fine, then.
And immigration mostly illegal immigration is genocide with another name. Like in every part of history where an external population invaded the indigenous population, just ask Indians.

My Greek government is very much indeed stealing my lands and my houses and gives them to illegal immigrants. Alongside NGOs and IMF to complete the trifecta of genocide.

My Greek government is very much denying me the rights as other people, with giving free houses, free renting and 400 euro per month to illegal immigrants while steals my via the biggest taxation there has been in the EU grounds.

So yes, my coutnry whose birth rate is below replacement is being genocided! No two ways about it!

And no, Europe is not defined by its people, but by its (evolving) culture. Its people changed all along the centuries, and I'm pretty sure people today don't look similar at all to people from the past. Anyway, the Romans already helped shuffle the cards when they added men from all around the Mediterranean to their troops and had they roam around their empire, from Egypt to Britain or Spain to Germany. Or the Macedonians, who had their soldiers marry the local population from Greece to India.
And yes, Europe is very-very much defined by its people, or else you believe that if Germans somehow died and Africans replacement them then Germany would still be Germany and not Africa the only unificated culture of Europe is its: Greco-Roman Legacy, Christianity, Western nations. Also, Macedonians are Greeks, I don't know where you found this historical mistake, like Athenians are Greeks, Spartans are Greeks, etc. In any case the Epigons of Alexander the Great divided his Empire in 4 and after their deaths, the empire(s) fallen and Egyptians returned to their own national identity.

Heck, even Cleopatra a daughter of the House of Seleukus did not recognized her Greek Legacy 300 after the Epigone's empire fell!
 

petran79

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As in "doesn't it overshadow crap Putler is doing to his neighbors?".
Uh, are you serious?
Because if yes, are you high?

Let me elaborate on the difference between Russia and USA once more:

Russia: Eastern Germany
USA: Western Germany

Russia: North Korea
USA: South Korea

.
Sorry but South Korea was never an example of democracy during Cold War and in the 90s


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Chung-hee

Park Chung-hee was a South Korean politician and general who served as the President of South Korea from 1963 until his assassination in 1979, assuming that office after first ruling the country as head of a military dictatorship installed by the May 16 coup in 1961. Before his presidency, he was the chairman of the Supreme Council for National Reconstruction from 1961 to 1963 after a career as a military leader in the South Korean army.


Although popular during the 60s by the 70s as growth began to slow Park's popularity started wane resulting in a close victory during the 1971 South Korean presidential election. Following this in 1972, Park declared martial law and amended the constitution into a highly authoritarian document called the Yushin Constitution. Formally, the pretense was that the Yushin Constitution was the seventh Constitutional amendment. In actuality, its effect was tantamount to an abolishment of the former Constitution -- effectively creating a new one in an effort to legitimize the new Fourth Republic. Although economic growth enjoyed a resurgence during this time, political opposition and dissent was constantly repressed and Park had complete control of the Media, Press and Military.
 

llien

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Add also Latin America, Africa and Asia with all those benevolent dictators backed by America and Europe.
Koreas/Germanies are like control groups, same country, different camps, different results.
Cross-country comparison is apples to oranges.
 

autoduelist

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The true gold of this thread is watching how split and angry everyone becomes discussing whether mass immigration will cause people to become split and angry.
 

petran79

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Koreas/Germanies are like control groups, same country, different camps, different results.
Cross-country comparison is apples to oranges.
World was divided into two camps. 3 if you count ΝΑΜ (Maduro is current president) so any country acted as control group back then.
Also there are Jerusalem and Nicosia which are still divided.
When Egypt shut the Suez Canal in 1967, Greece became a military Junta, which was abolished few months before the Suez Canal reopened in 1975, but then it was Chile's turn.
 
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autoduelist

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Globalist is a meaningless far-right conspiracy buzzword so you'll have to be more specific.
What a load of horseshit. First, people have been warning about the globalist agenda for decades upon decades. The UN, the EU, trade agreements like NAFTA, the rise of multinational corporations, the impact of mass immigration without assimilation, endless war, World Bank, free trade zones, IMF , etc. Have long, long been part of the conversation.

None of this is far right. In fact, it wasn't so long ago it was the ONLY the far left fighting against the neocons and other groups for pushing globalist agenda. Hence the solid wall of propaganda that has pushed the narrative anyone against globalism must be far right in order to silence it. You've been sold a bill of goods.
 

Scopa

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your mind
I'm not fond of USA in Middle East (second Iraq war in particular), but comparing that to Russian methods is like comparing headache to beheading.
I remember when I used to respect your posts. I had no idea you were one of the “head in the sand, believe the bullshit propaganda you are fed” people.

The more you know...
 

Dontero

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Calling Salvini, Orban, Kaczynski "right" is like calling Adam Smith leftist or Adolf Hitler "right wing"

EU is ruled by socialism.

Mao/Stalin/Lennin socialism being represented by Merkel, Macron, Juniker and rest who want to build multinational communist state and want for this state to rule over every area of life and making sure all differences like culture, wealth etc needs to be equaled and there should be super state without nationalities.

Mussolini/Hitler socialism being represented by Kaczynski/Orban/Salvini and rest who want to have nationalistic version of socialism where they want for their nations to be completely independent from rest.

Point is that both are socialist and neither of them have actually upper hand when it comes to creating "good" as shown by history. Both of them also are anti themselves so it will create conflict.

Imho right now the bigger damage could be done by Maoists than Musolinnists so imho Salvini/Orban/Kaczynski camp is better than Markel/Macron/Junker camp because you can turn away single nation while turning away huge multinational superstate is hard as hell.