It's getting hot in Venezuela: US backs opposition as "Venezuela President"

wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
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#54
The US can't stay out of it forever though. They have to jump in at the right time to insure that there will be no violence against the opposition once things have reached a certain point. They've done the same things in successful revolutions like that in the Philippines back in the 80's. The moment has come for Venezuela. We will see what happens.
The U.S. "can't" stay out of it? Who do you think started it? No one disputes that opposition funding comes from U.S. sources, for example, or that their political cover comes from U.S. intelligence and their media confederates, or that the opposition demands are verbatim the product of Western policy groups and boilerplate IMF scams. Even the establishment press has been quite open about these facts long before things got this heated. The sole question anyone even wants to ask anymore is whether it was right and good to clandestinely stoke and abet a counter-revolutionary coup or merely a practical necessity for U.S. strategic interests, and what to do now that the opposition movement is being dragged by its collar out of the country. Short of sending in the marines, it would be impossible for the U.S. to get any more "into it".
 
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May 10, 2009
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#56
The U.S. "can't" stay out of it? Who do you think started it? No one disputes that opposition funding comes from U.S. sources, for example, or that their political cover comes from U.S. intelligence and their media confederates, or that the opposition demands are verbatim the product of Western policy groups and boilerplate IMF scams. Even the establishment press has been quite open about these facts long before things got this heated. The sole question anyone even wants to ask anymore is whether it was right and good to clandestinely stoke and abet a counter-revolutionary coup or merely a practical necessity for U.S. strategic interests, and what to do now that the opposition movement is being dragged by its collar out of the country. Short of sending in the marines, it would be impossible for the U.S. to get any more "into it".
Two reasons why Venezuelans or 'counter-revolutionaries' are pissed off.

1. USA! USA! USA!

And at a very distant second

2. They have to eat the family dog because they are starving.
 

wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
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#57
Two reasons why Venezuelans or 'counter-revolutionaries' are pissed off.

1. USA! USA! USA!

And at a very distant second

2. They have to eat the family dog because they are starving.
Oh spare me. This story is copy-pasted from every community of ex-patriot criminals exiles to be booted from their condos for the past 50 years. They huddle together in Paris and Montreal and feed ghost stories to the newspaper while their society friends write checks for the contras. Poverty and degradation are realities everywhere in the global south, but they aren't the opposition leadership's reality. At best, these guys are opportunists, taking advantage of the volatility to push their own agenda. More realistically they are actively treasonous, which considering it's Latin America, would be a pretty familiar story, too.

The key question is how exactly does economic crisis translate into opposition to Maduro, specifically? Remember, this man absolutely does not control the price of oil, which is the one and only thing that actually matters in Venezuela. It's not like the ruling party doesn't realize this, but that's the global economy. Go tell India they have to get out of textiles. If you're a moron, sure, you might blame the government, but if you expect things to get better when the vultures show up and decree austerity, then I have two bridges and a structured aid package to sell you. They'll be back in the streets, only this time the Western press will have mysteriously vanished. Show of hands: does anyone not see this coming? It's such a timeless tale. It's actually Venezuela's tale, two decades ago, which is how they ended up with Chavez in the first place. Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the stubbornness of the government's supporters this time around? Americans have such short memories, but do Latin Americans? Very curious.
 
Mar 12, 2013
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#58
Oh spare me. This story is copy-pasted from every community of ex-patriot criminals exiles to be booted from their condos for the past 50 years. They huddle together in Paris and Montreal and feed ghost stories to the newspaper while their society friends write checks for the contras. Poverty and degradation are realities everywhere in the global south, but they aren't the opposition leadership's reality. At best, these guys are opportunists, taking advantage of the volatility to push their own agenda. More realistically they are actively treasonous, which considering it's Latin America, would be a pretty familiar story, too.

The key question is how exactly does economic crisis translate into opposition to Maduro, specifically? Remember, this man absolutely does not control the price of oil, which is the one and only thing that actually matters in Venezuela. It's not like the ruling party doesn't realize this, but that's the global economy. Go tell India they have to get out of textiles. If you're a moron, sure, you might blame the government, but if you expect things to get better when the vultures show up and decree austerity, then I have two bridges and a structured aid package to sell you. They'll be back in the streets, only this time the Western press will have mysteriously vanished. Show of hands: does anyone not see this coming? It's such a timeless tale. It's actually Venezuela's tale, two decades ago, which is how they ended up with Chavez in the first place. Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the stubbornness of the government's supporters this time around? Americans have such short memories, but do Latin Americans? Very curious.
Time to purge the kulaks hoarding food vultures sabotaging the Venezuelan economy and things will get better !
 
May 10, 2009
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#59
Oh spare me. This story is copy-pasted from every community of ex-patriot criminals exiles to be booted from their condos for the past 50 years. They huddle together in Paris and Montreal and feed ghost stories to the newspaper while their society friends write checks for the contras. Poverty and degradation are realities everywhere in the global south, but they aren't the opposition leadership's reality. At best, these guys are opportunists, taking advantage of the volatility to push their own agenda. More realistically they are actively treasonous, which considering it's Latin America, would be a pretty familiar story, too.

The key question is how exactly does economic crisis translate into opposition to Maduro, specifically? Remember, this man absolutely does not control the price of oil, which is the one and only thing that actually matters in Venezuela. It's not like the ruling party doesn't realize this, but that's the global economy. Go tell India they have to get out of textiles. If you're a moron, sure, you might blame the government, but if you expect things to get better when the vultures show up and decree austerity, then I have two bridges and a structured aid package to sell you. They'll be back in the streets, only this time the Western press will have mysteriously vanished. Show of hands: does anyone not see this coming? It's such a timeless tale. It's actually Venezuela's tale, two decades ago, which is how they ended up with Chavez in the first place. Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the stubbornness of the government's supporters this time around? Americans have such short memories, but do Latin Americans? Very curious.
Well you do seem to understand how economic crisis translates into opposition to Maduro just that anyone who is mad about it is an idiot, 'counter revolutionaries,' or employed by the CIA.
 
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wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
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#60
Time to purge the kulaks hoarding food vultures sabotaging the Venezuelan economy and things will get better !
Are you blind or stupid? Read my post again. The Venezuelan economy is not within the power of any Venezuelan to restore or weaken. It's literally not up to them, which is a tragedy but also the whole point of globalization. Investment capital runs the show. What the opposition is offering is a loan, not a solution. I mean this quite literally: they're courting international finance, meaning bonds. If you want to imagine what kind of strings are attached to that plan, I invite you to consider the history of literally any mafia. Actually, if there's any silver lining to this situation, it's that they jumped the gun thinking Maduro was a goner, and inadvertently financed a national reprieve. Whoops.

Gee, when you think about it, it's almost like anyone could have intervened on behalf of the national government and prevented the crisis at any time they wanted, but instead chose to vote with their wallets in the most cynical and opportunistic way possible, long after the defaults that put this much pressure on Maduro in the first place. Oh, but no, I'm sure they really care about the people. Maybe they overslept?
 
May 10, 2009
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#61
You know my posts might be coming off more smarmy than usual. I actually don’t have a strong opinion about Venezuela. Hope everything works out there and that the USA stays out of it.
 
Jul 19, 2018
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#63
Are you blind or stupid? Read my post again. The Venezuelan economy is not within the power of any Venezuelan to restore or weaken. It's literally not up to them, which is a tragedy but also the whole point of globalization. Investment capital runs the show. What the opposition is offering is a loan, not a solution. I mean this quite literally: they're courting international finance, meaning bonds. If you want to imagine what kind of strings are attached to that plan, I invite you to consider the history of literally any mafia. Actually, if there's any silver lining to this situation, it's that they jumped the gun thinking Maduro was a goner, and inadvertently financed a national reprieve. Whoops.

Gee, when you think about it, it's almost like anyone could have intervened on behalf of the national government and prevented the crisis at any time they wanted, but instead chose to vote with their wallets in the most cynical and opportunistic way possible, long after the defaults that put this much pressure on Maduro in the first place. Oh, but no, I'm sure they really care about the people. Maybe they overslept?
Big (y) to this post.
 
Apr 15, 2018
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#64
"Maduro is bad....but remember America is bad to. Maybe even worse."

Spoken like a true leftist. America is always the problem to people like him and his supporters. He is just pandering to his base, and like I said before people are just waiting to move the attention away from the failure of Hugo Chavez socialism and unto "right wing" America in any way
 
Jan 31, 2018
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#65
Agreed. It doesn't matter what any of us think of Maduro. It should only matter to the people of Venezuela. But we have these frickin' Globalists that can't stand not controlling a single country.
Except Venezuela does not exist in vacuum. If it was some island in the pacific - nobody would bat an eye.

But the situation is fascinating in its own right. And it shows how useless all those world global construct. You can have starving and crumbling regime transforming into Mad Max World but hey it's up to them to solve the problem. It will be fun when Maduro will start shooting people and the guys will be write couple of complaints to UN and then say that they should take weapons too.

Everybody want to keep a status quo. Backing of Russia and Turkey is understandable though - the precedent it creates is that for example if Erdogan has the protests after the election and some opposition leader will claim to be president it might have backing from some other governments. Though it is probably applies to USA too. Imagine Trump won and China (though asians usually sit on fence - a monkey watching the fight of tigers - or something) said that Hillary won.
 
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#66
Except Venezuela does not exist in vacuum. If it was some island in the pacific - nobody would bat an eye.

But the situation is fascinating in its own right. And it shows how useless all those world global construct. You can have starving and crumbling regime transforming into Mad Max World but hey it's up to them to solve the problem.

Everybody want to keep a status quo. Backing of Russia and Turkey is understandable though - the precedent it creates is that for example if Erdogan has the protests after the election and some opposition leader will claim to be president it might have backing from some other governments. Though it is probably applies to USA too. Imagine Trump won and China (though asians usually sit on fence - a monkey watching the fight of tigers - or something) said that Hillary won.
Regardless, they voted for Maduro twice. We should not be backing some random guy claiming to be President. And yes, I almost brought up the President Trump thing in my last post.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
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#67
"Maduro is bad....but remember America is bad to. Maybe even worse."

Spoken like a true leftist. America is always the problem to people like him and his supporters. He is just pandering to his base, and like I said before people are just waiting to move the attention away from the failure of Hugo Chavez socialism and unto "right wing" America in any way
That's one hell of a reading between the lines you're doing there.
 

wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
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#68
You know my posts might be coming off more smarmy than usual. I actually don’t have a strong opinion about Venezuela. Hope everything works out there and that the USA stays out of it.
I don't think you're out of line at all, I just think it's silly to question the role the that U.S. plays in the opposition right now. Why bother? The opposition makes little effort to hide it, the Western media tries their best, but they have ways of lying while telling the truth, counting on people not to understand the labyrinth of funding through research institutes, charities, foundations and NGOs and so on and how much of that money is dirty as hell. I mean this is actually, provably happening and has been for years. Chavez overplayed his hand in the crackdowns but he wasn't jumping at shadows.

Would the opposition exist if not for their foreign patrons? Maybe! But as things stand these relationships permanently damage their credibility and therefore their ability to rule effectively even if they do succeed (guaranteeing more and bloodier crackdowns). It's fortunate we have Trump as president, actually, because despite whatever overtures he made, his administration is openly feuding with the State Department and I'll bet you anything it was typical CIA pillow talk that set things in motion in the first place. A movement that wasn't built on shear opportunism could soldier on in these circumstances, but for now they'll have to wait until the liberals are back in power. If nothing else I think we can all appreciate the irony.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#69
Regardless, they voted for Maduro twice. We should not be backing some random guy claiming to be President. And yes, I almost brought up the President Trump thing in my last post.
He's not a rando though. He's the president of the national assembly, which from what I gathered, is like a Venezuelan parliament. Issue is, the last election was a sham making Maduro illegitimate. Guaido wishes to become interim president and then declare a new presidential election. As far as I could find, his bid is legitimate and is within his powers. Well, normally.

And this is ignoring everything Maduro did prior to the elections, which seems to be a lot of bypassing his own nation's laws to get more power for himself and his supporters. He basically created a new, separate assembly, filled it with his supporters and gave it powers to help him change the constitution in his favour, while depowering the existing national assembly, which still had a lot of power and opposition until then. This was already condemned by the same countries you supporting Guaido years ago.
 
Mar 12, 2013
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#70
Are you blind or stupid? Read my post again. The Venezuelan economy is not within the power of any Venezuelan to restore or weaken. It's literally not up to them, which is a tragedy but also the whole point of globalization. Investment capital runs the show. What the opposition is offering is a loan, not a solution. I mean this quite literally: they're courting international finance, meaning bonds. If you want to imagine what kind of strings are attached to that plan, I invite you to consider the history of literally any mafia. Actually, if there's any silver lining to this situation, it's that they jumped the gun thinking Maduro was a goner, and inadvertently financed a national reprieve. Whoops.
You take away all agency from the Venezuelan people, leaving them powerless pawns at the mercy of 'capital'. An extremely paternizing characterization which conventiently removes all guilt from them for the current misery in their country. Every oil producing country in the world has to deal with exactly the same circumstances but only one has collapsed so thouroughly.

In reality it's been the PSUV who chose and implemented disastrous policies that were just about possible at the peak price of oil, generating praise from Bernie Sanders and left wing pundits all over the world. But then the prices fell back and the policies became financially impossible to continue but politically impossible to rescind, lest the regime lost face.
 
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Oct 30, 2017
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#73
I don't see why it's Trump's business but since Venezuela's own government won't stand up for its people I guess Trump has to do it.
I agree. I’m a non-interventionist person, but seeing as other countries such as Canada, Chile, Brazil, Columbia and the Venezuelan people are against Maduro, I sort understand Trumps position.

What I don’t understand is why American leftists support Maduro. Funny how Putin, Iran and Hezbollah all support Maduro but the leftists say their on their on the right side of history.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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#74
What I don’t understand is why American leftists support Maduro. Funny how Putin, Iran and Hezbollah all support Maduro but the leftists say their on their on the right side of history.
Because he is claiming to be a leftist. They feel it as a personal attack. And considering that against him are Bolsonaro and Trump they support because they are against him. It won't be surprising that at certain point it will be something akin Hey, people are dying but at least he is not far right or Hey, he used military against people but at least hey its their personal deal

Was there a revolution without external support?
 
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Apr 15, 2018
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#75
Still not sure where you're getting "America is bad. Maybe worse" vis a vis Maduro's actions in Venezuela.
However, we must learn the lessons of the past and not be in the business of regime change or supporting coups – as we have in Chile, Guatemala, Brazil, and the Dominican Republic. The United States has a long history of inappropriately intervening in Latin American countries; we must not go down that road again."

Bernie ended his statement directly criticizing America's past actions, not Maduros. This is clearly pandering to his base.
 
Oct 30, 2017
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#76
Because he is claiming to be a leftist. They feel it as a personal attack. And considering that against him are Bolsonaro and Trump they support because they are against him. It won't be surprising that at certain point it will be something akin Hey, people are dying but at least he is not far right or Hey, he used military against people but at least hey its their personal deal

Was there a revolution without external support?
Of course. It’s already happening, the left turns the other way whenever someone who claims to be a leftist does wrong. The mindset is that the left sees fellow leftists as kind, moral and compassionate, therefore they see any wrongdoing by a leftist as a “mistake”, he means well, he cares, he just made a mistake. Whereas, they see right wingers are evil and uncaring, therefore any wrongdoing by them is seen as a natural manifestation of their character, it’s not a mistake, he’s just evil.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Jun 7, 2004
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#77
The Venezuelan economy is not within the power of any Venezuelan to restore or weaken. It's literally not up to them, which is a tragedy but also the whole point of globalization. Investment capital runs the show. What the opposition is offering is a loan, not a solution. I mean this quite literally: they're courting international finance, meaning bonds. If you want to imagine what kind of strings are attached to that plan, I invite you to consider the history of literally any mafia.
Chavez completely broke with the IMF over ten years ago. Maduro's government has been limping along on loans from Russia and China. Venezuelan oil production has fallen 50% because the government nationalized assets, ran off all private oil companies, and is too incompetent itself to efficiently extract it. Inflation has reached astonishing levels. 10% of the population has fled. All markers of a healthy society are going in the wrong direction.

Even given the drawbacks of IMF controls and oversight, what's the argument in favor of continuing the current trajectory?
 
Apr 18, 2018
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dunpachi.com
#79
Of course. It’s already happening, the left turns the other way whenever someone who claims to be a leftist does wrong. The mindset is that the left sees fellow leftists as kind, moral and compassionate, therefore they see any wrongdoing by a leftist as a “mistake”, he means well, he cares, he just made a mistake. Whereas, they see right wingers are evil and uncaring, therefore any wrongdoing by them is seen as a natural manifestation of their character, it’s not a mistake, he’s just evil.
This is not unique to Left or Right, but you're right, this kind of runaway tribalism does cause the behavior you're describing.
 
Mar 7, 2018
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#81
Oh spare me. This story is copy-pasted from every community of ex-patriot criminals exiles to be booted from their condos for the past 50 years. They huddle together in Paris and Montreal and feed ghost stories to the newspaper while their society friends write checks for the contras. Poverty and degradation are realities everywhere in the global south, but they aren't the opposition leadership's reality. At best, these guys are opportunists, taking advantage of the volatility to push their own agenda. More realistically they are actively treasonous, which considering it's Latin America, would be a pretty familiar story, too.

The key question is how exactly does economic crisis translate into opposition to Maduro, specifically? Remember, this man absolutely does not control the price of oil, which is the one and only thing that actually matters in Venezuela. It's not like the ruling party doesn't realize this, but that's the global economy. Go tell India they have to get out of textiles. If you're a moron, sure, you might blame the government, but if you expect things to get better when the vultures show up and decree austerity, then I have two bridges and a structured aid package to sell you. They'll be back in the streets, only this time the Western press will have mysteriously vanished. Show of hands: does anyone not see this coming? It's such a timeless tale. It's actually Venezuela's tale, two decades ago, which is how they ended up with Chavez in the first place. Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with the stubbornness of the government's supporters this time around? Americans have such short memories, but do Latin Americans? Very curious.
Spoken like a true communist.
 
Nov 12, 2009
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#82
I feel like the focus is too much on America in this. I am currently in Bolivia and the news talks about there are so many countries supporting this(including the USA also known as EEUU round these here parts).

Honestly the whole situation just sucks and keeps getting suckier as every day passes. The whole thing is very fascinating to see what is a western society crumble like such. I do constantly think of the safety of my friends that live there and go there to travel.
 
Jul 19, 2018
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#85
It was a sham election. Barely anyone voted on that day. It had no international witnesses, the results were rigged, etc... Thus it had no international recognition.

More than 80% of venezuelans oppose the government.

Some accounts, to give a picture.
There were international observers.

I don’t trust anything the media says, especially when there is a clear agenda.
 

llien

Gold Member
Feb 1, 2017
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#89
What’s your point? It was a huge mistake to take out Hussein, and I support Assad remaining in power.
That being "re-elected" in oppressive systems means nothing.
If it helps: Putin was re-elected too.
Hell, Assad's daddy was "re-elected", even in Hama, after all the things he had done there.

And baiting some insipid trap about the Kulaks does? Oh, of course you think it does: you ran right to Stalin, too.
I referred to Stalin being re-elected (do you know how many voted for comrade Stalin by the way?) which is quite relevant in the "he was re-elected" argument).
You where the first to mention Kulaks (who vere destroyed because Lenin, not Stalin said so) who have nothing at all to do with this thread, unless you elaborate, perhaps.
 
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wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
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#90
That being "re-elected" in oppressive systems means nothing.


I referred to Stalin being re-elected (do you know how many voted for comrade Stalin by the way?) which is quite relevant in the "he was re-elected" argument).
You where the first to mention Kulaks (who vere destroyed because Lenin, not Stalin said so) who have nothing at all to do with this thread, unless you elaborate, perhaps.
Maybe try reading the post that I quoted in the first place. Edit: I have a question for you, afterwards.
 
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wzy

Member
Dec 29, 2018
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#92
Insults add even less.
Less than what! The other insult you're being a little scold about? Who cares? What are you contributing, here? A pointless, content-free derail over a post you can't even admit you didn't read. Go bother anyone else. Maybe one of the posters here who has some interest in the topic beyond point-scoring in some ideological dispute that ended before they were born?
 
Feb 22, 2018
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#94
The elections were a sham, full stop. If you want to educate yourself on the situation, be my guest.

Maybe my perspective is biased, having witnessed the day to day crumbling of my country since I was a child.
How old are you? 9?



After the failed CIA coup in early 2000, there was a geopolitical stalemate window as Venezuela diversified its oil exports to other countries. US sanctions and opposition sabotage kicked into full gear again at the end of Chavez tenure when they saw another opening. Maduro has just been along for the ride, presiding over a failed system created by US and opposition pressure. Chavez was overly generous with the oil revenues and reforms, the US subsequently removed Venezuela from global markets sanction by sanction. It has got to the stage where the Bank of England is refusing to give Venezuela its gold reserves as of yesterday.

Coup #2 in full effect.
 
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#95
How old are you? 9?



After the failed CIA coup in early 2000, there was a geopolitical stalemate window as Venezuela diversified its oil exports to other countries. US sanctions and opposition sabotage kicked into full gear again at the end of Chavez tenure when they saw another opening. Maduro has just been along for the ride, presiding over a failed system created by US and opposition pressure. Chavez was overly generous with the oil revenues and reforms, the US subsequently removed Venezuela from global markets sanction by sanction. It has got to the stage where the Bank of England is refusing to give Venezuela its gold reserves as of yesterday.

Coup #2 in full effect.
I'm 25, and you're clearly full of shit and trying to push a false narrative.

Here's a good account of what happened: thread
 
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Feb 22, 2018
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#96
No I'm not full of poop. I'm vehemently opposed to Chavez and his little failed socialist experiment. But that came AFTER and a big part of that failure has to do with the usual suspects trying to topple unfriendly states. Don't pretend this is about freedom and democracy. How many times have you been sold the same lie?

This is for Venezuelans to sort out. Foreign meddling will result in complete and utter destruction for decades to come. The Chavez years will seem like paradise.
 
Mar 7, 2018
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#97
No I'm not full of poop. I'm vehemently opposed to Chavez and his little failed socialist experiment. But that came AFTER and a big part of that failure has to do with the usual suspects trying to topple unfriendly states. Don't pretend this is about freedom and democracy. How many times have you been sold the same lie?

This is for Venezuelans to sort out. Foreign meddling will result in complete and utter destruction for decades to come. The Chavez years will seem like paradise.
So you're okay with Cuba's meddling? And Russia's?
 
Feb 22, 2018
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#98
Friendly relations and invited guests are not meddling.

Consider the Syrian situation. The only foreign powers legally in Syria (according to the UN) are Russia and Iran, because they were invited by Syria. You meddle when your stick your nose in uninvited. For example Russia meddles with Ukraine post-Yanukovich just as the US meddles with regimes hostile to it.
 
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llien

Gold Member
Feb 1, 2017
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Less than what!
Less than dubious argumets.


Regarding this wonderful picture:




A more to the "GDP story" of Comrade Chavez, Venezuela's GDP vs crude oil price (wolframalfa):



He did little more than just ride high oil price wave.
And then this happened with oil revenue:




Crude oil production in Venezuela (Chaves comes in 1999):



After Hugo Chávez officially took office in February 1999, several policy changes involving the country's oil industry were made to explicitly tie it to the state under his Bolivarian Revolution. Since then, PDVSA has not demonstrated any capability to bring new oil fields onstream since nationalizing heavy oil projects in the Orinoco Petroleum Belt formerly operated by international oil companies ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, Chevronand Total. Chávez’s policies damaged Venezuela's oil industry due to lack of investment, corruption and cash shortages.[27][28]

According to Corrales and Penfold, "Chávez was not the first president in Venezuelan history to be mesmerized by the promise of oil, but he was the one who allowed the sector to decline the most", with most statistics showing deterioration of the industry since the beginning of his presidency.[35]
 
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